Farmers fight for the right to repair their own tractors

[SZonian]

Farmers in Nebraska, Minnesota, Massachusetts, and New York are staging something of a mechanical revolt. They're attempting to get legislation passed in their states that would enable them, for the first time since the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, to repair their own tractors or get an independent mechanic to help.

At the root of the morass is the software that helps run modern tractors and their sensors, diagnostic tools, and other high-tech elements. If farmers so much as open the metaphorical hood to check out the computers they could be violating the federal act, reports Modern Farmer.

Mick Minchow, a Nebraska farmer for more than 40 years, is among the many who are fed up, reports Lincoln Journal Star. As it currently stands, any problem with his John Deere 8235 R requires a trip to the dealer and costs him important time.

[excerpted]

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/07/25/farmers-fight-for-right-to-repair-their-own-tractors.html

[geronl]

ridiculous laws

We need some open source competition in agricultural appliances

[roamer_1]

Massey Ferguson (or another) could come out on top if they pay attention here...
This is a death knell for Deere - Nobody can wait for a dealership when it's planting or harvesting time. Who's gonna buy 'em with this nonsense going on?

[Oceander]

ridiculous laws

We need some open source competition in agricultural appliances

I'm surprised it hasn't shown up yet - perhaps the hardware is too specialized.

[Smokin Joe]

Note that the tractor at the link is significantly smaller than the 8235R, and there are bigger ones.

Look here for an image of the sort of equipment common on wheat farms up here where farmers routinely farm several square miles  https://www.deere.com/en_CAF/products/equipment/planting_and_seeding_equipment/planting_and_seeding_equipment.page

Much of this equipment is computerized to help maximize yields by preventing skipped or double planted areas in fields.

[geronl]

I'm surprised it hasn't shown up yet - perhaps the hardware is too specialized.

I guess there aren't enough "hackers" or independent programmers with any familiarity with the equipment.

[Frank Cannon]

That's why I own one of these....



.....no computers.

[Smokin Joe]

That's why I own one of these....



.....no computers.

I remember spinning the flywheel on my grandfather's John Deere to start it--it was a rite of passage. My Great Uncle's tractors were crank start and easier. I was driving both long before I turned 10.

[JustPassinThru]

That's why I own one of these....



.....no computers.

You might do better yet with these.



I don't know how it is today; but for YEARS, the Amish, using traditional non-mechanical methods, were among the most profitable of family farmers.  No borrowed money; no tractor or equipment payments;' horses reproduce...the way they do; and what was spent on the horses is never lost.

I hadn't thought about all the microprocessors on modern tractors.  Is it that it's all proprietary?  Or is the government, that gave us ethanol in gasoline and windmills instead of reliable electricity...is this wonderful government making the microprocessors OFF LIMITS to farmer-owners?

[Frank Cannon]

I don't know how it is today; but for YEARS, the Amish, using traditional non-mechanical methods, were among the most profitable of family farmers.  No borrowed money; no tractor or equipment payments;' horses reproduce...the way they do; and what was spent on the horses is never lost.

LOL. Don't fool yourself. The Amish make their money from tourism, not farming. I had a bunch of them as customers when I was in corporate sales. They all had cars, fax machines and any other modern things needed to make money hidden in the back of their businesses. They are the biggest frauds going.

[JustPassinThru]

LOL. Don't fool yourself. The Amish make their money from tourism, not farming. I had a bunch of them as customers when I was in corporate sales. They all had cars, fax machines and any other modern things needed to make money hidden in the back of their businesses. They are the biggest frauds going.

I don't know about that, at least not across-the-board.

Where I had experience with them, they were newcomers - new spinoff colonies moving into hardscrabble farming areas of Western New York.  They'd buy farms; several at a time, the congregation self-financing; and then families would settle in.

It PO'd some locals - they'd know the previous farmers; they'd know the farmhouse was upgraded for sale, and there would be the new bathroom fixtures ripped out and put by the side of the road for pickup.  While an outhouse would appear behind the house.

There was no tourism in that area that they were offering.  No Amish Restaurants; no Amish furniture.  Nobody thought they were there.  The tourism surrounded the Finger Lakes; and inland...nobody but other farmers and the Tax Man paid attention.

They had money.  And it was obvious why - they wasted nothing.  The little resort town I worked for was taking down several old public buildings - instead of calling in a wrecker, they got one of us on the DPW who had an Amish neighbor, to approach a congregation to let them have the lumber.

They had a deconstruction bee.  Just like a barn raising but in reverse.  One day, a swarm of them are all over it...pulling off and stacking the lumber; throwing sheetrock into the roll-off dump bin; we'd allowed them a flatbed truck to take their booty away.  That was the village's only cost; and in one day they had it down to the foundation - and cleaned up, too.

Repeat several times.  In an era where lumber was eye-warping expensive (late 1970s) that was a serious win/win.

I can't vouch for all of them; but the ones I saw...while clannish and not-so-churchlike when they don't think anyone can hear...they still go in for hard work, I give them props for that.

[Smokin Joe]

You might do better yet with these.



I don't know how it is today; but for YEARS, the Amish, using traditional non-mechanical methods, were among the most profitable of family farmers.  No borrowed money; no tractor or equipment payments;' horses reproduce...the way they do; and what was spent on the horses is never lost.

I hadn't thought about all the microprocessors on modern tractors.  Is it that it's all proprietary?  Or is the government, that gave us ethanol in gasoline and windmills instead of reliable electricity...is this wonderful government making the microprocessors OFF LIMITS to farmer-owners?

The computers that run the engines control emissions, too. There is an increasing trend to make internal combustion vehicles so interlaced that the owner can't possibly repair them, and independent shops can't either, which runs you back to factory authorized repair facilities, which may or may not be competent.

Considering the problems inherent with getting a tractor that size 50 to 100 miles to a dealer for repairs, it goes well beyond a pain in the rear or a little downtime. It means loading the thing on a lowboy semi trailer, and if you have the dual wheel option, getting the wide/oversize load permits and pilot vehicle(s), depending on your state laws.  It's a long way from replacing a magneto or a set of points or plugs in the field, draining the settling bowl, checking the oil and firing it up...

[JustPassinThru]

The EPA strikes again.

What we need is STATE SECESSION.  And in Seceded States, EVERY Fuddrel Ossifer or employee...arrested and made to pay for their crimes against the public.

This is MADNESS. 

All this insanity about truck engines...never occurred to me tractor engines now fall under that same crap.  What, do they want to just STOP FARMING?  Starve the yukky white masses; give what little food there is to their BLM assassins and their beloved Moslem Bedouins?

[roamer_1]

The computers that run the engines control emissions, too. There is an increasing trend to make internal combustion vehicles so interlaced that the owner can't possibly repair them, and independent shops can't either, which runs you back to factory authorized repair facilities, which may or may not be competent.

And this legal battle over tractor 'intellectual property' is being eyed very closely by the automotive and trucking industries...

It isn't that a reasonably good mechanic can't repair them - It's that only authorized personnel can legally open the hood.

There were several trade mag articles about this last summer... Even to the point of making super-chips illegal...

And the government is in bed with them too - desiring the control they get over closed system regulating... And voila! the 'next best thing' to socialism.

[Just_Victor]

And this legal battle over tractor 'intellectual property' is being eyed very closely by the automotive and trucking industries...

It isn't that a reasonably good mechanic can't repair them - It's that only authorized personnel can legally open the hood.

There were several trade mag articles about this last summer... Even to the point of making super-chips illegal...

And the government is in bed with them too - desiring the control they get over closed system regulating... And voila! the 'next best thing' to socialism.

And that is the problem in a nutshell.  The lobbyist for the "authorized personnel" won the fight in Congress when the law passed.  This is nothing but a protectionist domestic policy created by people that Ayn Rand called the "aristocracy of pull."

[JustPassinThru]

Simple solution in the end.  Leave the farming to the people who have the copyrights, authorizations and legal access.

Get OUT of farming.  The government demands huge sums of rent, in land taxes; they insist on myriad regulations on how land can be used; and the equipment is not only impossibly expensive, it cannot be fixed except by Authorized Personnel at highway-robbery rates.

Find other work.  Or no work...get a Foo Stam card and drink Boone's Farm all day.  Like Democrats.

And let the nation starve.  Out of collapse, MAYBE, something more aligned with our traditions will come out.

[Smokin Joe]

Simple solution in the end.  Leave the farming to the people who have the copyrights, authorizations and legal access.

Get OUT of farming.  The government demands huge sums of rent, in land taxes; they insist on myriad regulations on how land can be used; and the equipment is not only impossibly expensive, it cannot be fixed except by Authorized Personnel at highway-robbery rates.

Find other work.  Or no work...get a Foo Stam card and drink Boone's Farm all day.  Like Democrats.

And let the nation starve.  Out of collapse, MAYBE, something more aligned with our traditions will come out.

Frankly, that is what the regulations were written to do. Drive the Family farm out of business so outfits like Monsanto, ConAgra, etc. can take over. The corporation controls the food supply.

A bunch of the GMO fights have been over patent rights when GMO crops pollinate non GMO crops in adjacent fields. The majority of the lawsuits are over patent infringement because the farmer who planted non GMO crops now has GMO, whether they wanted it or not, especially if that farmer holds back part of the crop for seed.
Most crops are hybrids, developed for disease/drought/insect resistance anyway, and seed loans can run into six figures for a wheat farm, for instance, planting over ten square miles of crops.

Farming isn't just a job, folks, it (like ranching) is a way of life. Have decisions made in a corporate board room thousands of miles away, and they may not work out so well as those made by people who have been farming that land for generations. The ensuing famine affects not only the US, but international trade as well.

[JustPassinThru]

Some things cannot be fought.  Corporations control many other things, too, and it's not the end of the world.  Corporations are just organizational structures - and they're filled with, and run by, and run with, and run for, people.

You would argue that family farming is more efficient, and I'd agree.  But like so many other bad ideas, this one needs to be taken to its dead end...else you'll be fighting it until they win and then lose.

I don't have a problem with them trying to protect their patents.  If you don't want to use engineered crops...do like the Amish do.

If you can't make money like the Amish do, and you don't want to deal with patented, engineered crops that do not seed...time to find another line of work.  It is what it is.

[Smokin Joe]

Some things cannot be fought.  Corporations control many other things, too, and it's not the end of the world.  Corporations are just organizational structures - and they're filled with, and run by, and run with, and run for, people.

You would argue that family farming is more efficient, and I'd agree.  But like so many other bad ideas, this one needs to be taken to its dead end...else you'll be fighting it until they win and then lose.

I don't have a problem with them trying to protect their patents.  If you don't want to use engineered crops...do like the Amish do.

If you can't make money like the Amish do, and you don't want to deal with patented, engineered crops that do not seed...time to find another line of work.  It is what it is.

You can't just do like the Amish do. If your crop is in a field next to a field containing the GMO crop and the pollen crosses the road with the wind, you are the one who gets sued. When you consider there are square miles of these crops, there is more than enough pollen to pollute your crop, and you are the one who gets in trouble for unwanted fertilization.

If your neighbor has a dog who jumps the fence and breeds your dog, would you want to pay the stud fee?

[JustPassinThru]

You can't just do like the Amish do. If your crop is in a field next to a field containing the GMO crop and the pollen crosses the road with the wind, you are the one who gets sued. When you consider there are square miles of these crops, there is more than enough pollen to pollute your crop, and you are the one who gets in trouble for unwanted fertilization.

If your neighbor has a dog who jumps the fence and breeds your dog, would you want to pay the stud fee?

Look, I get it.  It's not fair.

Nothing in life is fair anymore.  It's not fair that I cannot save money and get any kind of a return...how will I retire?  But it is what it is; this is what Statist tyranny and unchecked Central Government takes us to.

If you can't farm, don't farm.  I used to be a truck driver.  There used to be money in it.  Now there is NOTHING but heavy, micromanaging, insane regulations - and the pay has disappeared.  Truck-driving is what a lot of Pakis and Mexicans who speak no inglez do.  Pay is lower than in fast-food.

I gave up my CDL years ago; and if I have to drive a truck to live...I'll rob banks first.  Either I'll get away, or I'll go to the Federal Penitentiary - and STILL live better than an over-the-road trucker.

Farming, too.  Government destroys lives.  Just ask someone who lived through the Third Reich.

[sneakypete]

Massey Ferguson (or another) could come out on top if they pay attention here...
This is a death knell for Deere - Nobody can wait for a diealership when it's planting or harvesting time. Who's gonna buy 'em with this nonsense going on?

You don't have to wait. Every dealership I know of will be more than happy to send a mechanic to where the equipment is,and have them repair it right there.

Last time I called a New Holland dealer about repairs to me front end loader,I was quoted a price of 150 bucks a hour,with the time starting when the mechanic leaves the dealership a hour away,and if he has to spend any time running back and forth to the dealership to get tools or additional parts,that time is added to the bill,too. This was about 10 years ago,so I suspect the price is higher now.

Doesn't take you long to figure out you really,REALLY need the factory service manuals because getting a big tractor or other piece of farm equipment delivered to the dealer for repairs at his location ain't cheap,either. I have a 1 ton pu and a 5 ton equipment trailer that I used to haul mine to the dealership,but even with a smaller front end loader like mine,the trailer and truck were marginal from a safety perspective. Don't even think about loading a larger piece up like a combine because it ain't gonna happen short of a tractor trailer,special permits,and a lead and chase car with flashing lights.

Now you know why this is such a big deal for the farmers. We are talking serious money here,and serious loss of money while the equipment is down because they only have a short time window to either plant or load their crops. I can only imagine what the JD and other dealers are now charging to diagnose and repair systems controlled by computers. My old loader is a 1993 model,and lights and an alternator to charge the battery are the only electronics on it. Everything else is hydraulic.

[sneakypete]

Note that the tractor at the link is significantly smaller than the 8235R, and there are bigger ones.

Look here for an image of the sort of equipment common on wheat farms up here where farmers routinely farm several square miles  https://www.deere.com/en_CAF/products/equipment/planting_and_seeding_equipment/planting_and_seeding_equipment.page

Much of this equipment is computerized to help maximize yields by preventing skipped or double planted areas in fields.

Even the smaller equipment of today have computer controls for precision rows,plants,and picking. They run off of a wi-fi GPS connection. LOTS of farm equipment today on even small farms,never mind the monster mid-western farms,costs more than the farmer's house,and is only used a couple of months a year at most.

If you have enough money to buy a farm and the equipment needed to run it,you have no freaking business working.

[sneakypete]

http://www.chatstractors.com/fordlogo.jpg[/img]

.....no computers.

I had a red belly. Somebody offered me stupid money for it,so I sold it and now have a 57 Ford 645 small tractor. Don't use it much since I bought the 93 New Holland 345 D,though. Tried to sell the 645 for 2 grand twice,and had deals,and then the buyers offered me up to $1,000 less than the agreed price the day they showed up to take it off. I guess they must have thought I needed the money and would be dazzled by 10 or 12 $100 bills. They were wrong. It's paid for and it doesn't eat nothing,so it can just sit there for all I care. I might even start using it again once I no longer need the 345 D and sell it.

[Smokin Joe]

Look, I get it.  It's not fair.

Nothing in life is fair anymore.  It's not fair that I cannot save money and get any kind of a return...how will I retire?  But it is what it is; this is what Statist tyranny and unchecked Central Government takes us to.

If you can't farm, don't farm.  I used to be a truck driver.  There used to be money in it.  Now there is NOTHING but heavy, micromanaging, insane regulations - and the pay has disappeared.  Truck-driving is what a lot of Pakis and Mexicans who speak no inglez do.  Pay is lower than in fast-food.

I gave up my CDL years ago; and if I have to drive a truck to live...I'll rob banks first.  Either I'll get away, or I'll go to the Federal Penitentiary - and STILL live better than an over-the-road trucker.

Farming, too.  Government destroys lives.  Just ask someone who lived through the Third Reich.

You can still farm, but you have to change crops. Now that might sound simple, but if you are set up to plant, harvest, handle and store wheat, and switch to canola or sunflowers or barley, for instance, you will require different equipment to handle that seed, and to harvest and store those crops. That gets expensive (six figures or more), and besides, if your family has been growing wheat for a couple of generations, you know what works best. Another crop means a whole new learning curve, too, and yes, the government will have its fingers in that, too

It isn't like when I was a kid, when we grew tobacco, and if it looked like tobacco wasn't going to be a good crop to grow that year, put in potatoes or something else instead, but those were far smaller fields (only a few acres), and not the massive multi-section (a section is 640 acres +/-, a square mile) operations of this region.

The place to drive truck is the oil patch, BTW, usually shorter hauls with liquids and HAZMAT, hauling anything from crude oil to drilling mud to fuel or fresh/salt water. There are 'dry' loads, too. That generally pays fairly well. The rig moving industry lost 2/3-3/4 of the market when 'walking' rigs came out, drilling on multiwell pads. And the whole industry purt'near imploded when oil prices dropped, but anything associated with oil production is ongoing, and that oil and salt water is commonly hauled at least short distances by truck. The one place on shore where the hit hasn't been so bad in the Permian Basin Area in Texas.

 OTR, from what I have heard, is where drivers who aren't owner operators get screwed.

[sneakypete]

You might do better yet with these.



I don't know how it is today; but for YEARS, the Amish, using traditional non-mechanical methods, were among the most profitable of family farmers.  No borrowed money; no tractor or equipment payments;' horses reproduce...the way they do; and what was spent on the horses is never lost.<<

Don't believe that for a minute. Their farms are always profitable because they owe no money on them and mostly don't pay any labor wages because they work their children. There is no way in hell a manual labor or mule system can compete with machinery,period.

I hadn't thought about all the microprocessors on modern tractors.  Is it that it's all proprietary?  Or is the government, that gave us ethanol in gasoline and windmills instead of reliable electricity...is this wonderful government making the microprocessors OFF LIMITS to farmer-owners?<<

Farm equipment is all off-road equipment so they don't really come under the highway regulations,and it's all diesel-powered,so ethanol and similar crap doesn't come into play.

[Smokin Joe]

Even the smaller equipment of today have computer controls for precision rows,plants,and picking. They run off of a wi-fi GPS connection. LOTS of farm equipment today on even small farms,never mind the monster mid-western farms,costs more than the farmer's house,and is only used a couple of months a year at most.

If you have enough money to buy a farm and the equipment needed to run it,you have no freaking business working.

Over the years in the oil patch, I ran into more than a few farmers who were roughnecking to make enough money to keep the farm going. One of those guys had a well come in on his property, where he owned the mineral rights, too and commented "All right! I have royalty checks coming in! That should be enough to let me farm another 20 years!"
What people don't get is that farming and ranching are not just a 'job'. They are a way of life, often one which has been practiced for multiple generations by a family. It isn't for everyone, and it is a lot of work--every day, not just Monday through Friday 9-5, although there are times more slack than others, there is always something to do. As  much a continuing heritage as a vocation, it is not something easily surrendered, nor is the adjustment to a set schedule at someone else's behest an easy one.

You grow to love the land you farm, if you are worthy of it, and you observe it, care for it and are a good steward of that land. My family has farmland which has been in tillage (one crop or another, rotated) for over 300 years. I'd love to live there, but it takes 9 permits to cut down a tree planted by an ancestor 180 years ago because that wasn't good cropland. Those 20 plus acres of red oaks are prime, and will decay on the stump because of government. (Millions of dollars worth of timber.) 
The fisheries industry in the estuary they are near was destroyed by a government release of chemicals to reduce aquatic vegetation for pleasure craft--which eliminated all aquatic vegetation in the estuary and beyond in the late 60s, but the rules for a Scenic River were only to keep the view, not function. I could go on with the level of disgust I have for those who think they are our betters, but I won't. However I see little difference between the Government backroom and the corporate boardroom when it comes to wrecking things in the name of improvement and efficiency. Lysenkoism didn't die with the Soviet Union.

[Smokin Joe]

The newer stuff is diesel. We never had a diesel tractor when I was a kid, and saw my first one in the '70s.

That said, yes, Virginia, there are emissions controls for farm and off road equipment.

https://www3.epa.gov/nonroad/

[sneakypete]

Simple solution in the end.  Leave the farming to the people who have the copyrights, authorizations and legal access.<<

That is EXACTLY what the government in working on,at the urging of the YUGE corporate farmers that want a monopoly,and who are willing to put YUGE campaign contributions where their mouths are. One day within the next 20 years famers will no longer be satisfied with the farm subside/welfare for the rich programs going now,and will be organized to the point where they can call for food strikes to get more money.

There are a lot of "farmers" now that have never spent a day in their life aboard a combine or a tractor,and only sit at corporate board seats. They are "suits" that manage turnips instead of widgets.

"Get OUT of farming.  The government demands huge sums of rent, in land taxes; they insist on myriad regulations on how land can be used; and the equipment is not only impossibly expensive, it cannot be fixed except by Authorized Personnel at highway-robbery rates."

Wrong. Farming is the biggest welfare program in the country. Corporate famers,which today even includes family farmers,often get paid more to NOT farm by putting their land into the farm bank or timber bank than they could earn by planting crops on it. Even government subsidized crops where they are guaranteed a profit before the plant the first row. A local "family farmer" (the land he owns has been owned by his family since the 1800's) was running for a county commission seat as a frugal conservative interested in saving taxpayer money,and then his opponent revealed he was pulling in MORE than 1 MILLION bucks per year in tax-free subsides for having a lot of his land in the soil or timber bank. He ended up dropping out of the race.

"Find other work.  Or no work...get a Foo Stam card and drink Boone's Farm all day.  Like Democrats."

They already do that. The mega-farmers from the midwest don't even farm to start with. They have employees do the farming for them. The owners of farms with just a few hundred acres farm some of it some of the time,but mostly earn their livings from keeping some of it in the soil and/or timber banks,plus running outside businesses when they aren't farming. I have never met one that laid around drunk all day,but almost all of them are on one form of welfare or another.

[sneakypete]

Frankly, that is what the regulations were written to do. Drive the Family farm out of business so outfits like Monsanto, ConAgra, etc. can take over. The corporation controls the food supply.

BINGO!  In fact,there really is no such critter as a "family farm" anymore. I know people from farm families that have "hobby farms" of up to maybe 25 acres where they grow crops to sell out of roadside stands,but there is no way in hell you can run a commercial farm these days and turn a profit unless you have hundreds of acres to farm. The equipment just costs to much.

[Smokin Joe]

Simple solution in the end.  Leave the farming to the people who have the copyrights, authorizations and legal access.<<

That is EXACTLY what the government in working on,at the urging of the YUGE corporate farmers that want a monopoly,and who are willing to put YUGE campaign contributions where their mouths are. One day within the next 20 years famers will no longer be satisfied with the farm subside/welfare for the rich programs going now,and will be organized to the point where they can call for food strikes to get more money.

There are a lot of "farmers" now that have never spent a day in their life aboard a combine or a tractor,and only sit at corporate board seats. They are "suits" that manage turnips instead of widgets.

"Get OUT of farming.  The government demands huge sums of rent, in land taxes; they insist on myriad regulations on how land can be used; and the equipment is not only impossibly expensive, it cannot be fixed except by Authorized Personnel at highway-robbery rates."

Wrong. Farming is the biggest welfare program in the country. Corporate famers,which today even includes family farmers,often get paid more to NOT farm by putting their land into the farm bank or timber bank than they could earn by planting crops on it. Even government subsidized crops where they are guaranteed a profit before the plant the first row. A local "family farmer" (the land he owns has been owned by his family since the 1800's) was running for a county commission seat as a frugal conservative interested in saving taxpayer money,and then his opponent revealed he was pulling in MORE than 1 MILLION bucks per year in tax-free subsides for having a lot of his land in the soil or timber bank. He ended up dropping out of the race.

"Find other work.  Or no work...get a Foo Stam card and drink Boone's Farm all day.  Like Democrats."

They already do that. The mega-farmers from the midwest don't even farm to start with. They have employees do the farming for them. The owners of farms with just a few hundred acres farm some of it some of the time,but mostly earn their livings from keeping some of it in the soil and/or timber banks,plus running outside businesses when they aren't farming. I have never met one that laid around drunk all day,but almost all of them are on one form of welfare or another.

In these parts, there is an awful lot of farming going on.

Nationally, North Dakota typically ranks second to Kansas in total wheat production, though there are years when the state has come out on top, depending on growing conditions. North Dakota was the top wheat producing state in 2009 and 2010.

North Dakota is number one in the production of two wheat classes: hard red spring and durum. On average, the state's farmers grow nearly half of the nation's hard red spring wheat (250 million bushels) and two-thirds of the durum (50 million bushels).

North Dakota also is the leading U.S. producer of sunflower, barley, dry edible beans, navy and pinto beans, canola, flax, oats, honey, lentils and dry peas. The state also is a major producer of sugarbeets, potatoes, hay and specialty crops such as mustard seed, buckwheat and crambe.

North Dakota has about 30,300 farms, averaging 1,300 acres (526 hectares) each. The national average is 436 acres (177 hectares).

Approximately 19,200 North Dakota farms grow wheat. By class, 74 percent grow spring, 25 percent raise durum, and 1 percent produce winter wheat.

Wheat is produced in all 53 counties in North Dakota.

Wheat is planted on an average 9 million acres (3.7 million hectares), covering a quarter of North Dakota. The state's average yield is 38 bushels per acre (2.55 tons per hectare).

The state's farmers have 760 million bushels (21 million tons) of on-farm storage capacity, enough to hold more than two North Dakota wheat crops.

http://www.ndwheat.com/buyers/default.asp?ID=293

That's just one class of crops...

[sneakypete]

In these parts, there is an awful lot of farming going on.

And only a tiny percentage is done on family farms.

[geronl]

I can only imagine what the JD and other dealers are now charging to diagnose and repair systems controlled by computers.

Something they should be able to do over the internet by now.

[EC]

The farmers should get in touch with the car modding community in the UK. They fought the same fight and won. 

[Smokin Joe]

And only a tiny percentage is done on family farms.

Sorry, Pete, wrong.
THe legislature tried to exempt hog and dairy operations form the corporate farm ban in ND, but the issue was petitioned to the ballot:
http://www.agweb.com/article/opponents-of-corporate-farm-ban-exemption-raise-11-million-naa-associated-press/

The North Dakota Farmers Union led the campaign to reverse the Legislature's decision last year to exempt pork and dairy operations from the state's anti-corporate farming law. Campaign disclosure filings show the Farmers Union, which has more than 40,000 members, has spent more than $1 million to overturn the law.

Supporters of the so-called ham-and-cheese law say the exemption is needed to save the two dying industries by giving them more access to capital and opportunities to expand.

Opponents said family farming had served North Dakota well and that the law was an invitation for big, out-of-state corporations to set up operations in the state.

Eight other states have laws restricting corporate farming, though all allow exemptions for some livestock operations.

(source)http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2016-06-14/north-dakota-voters-weigh-in-on-governor-farming-rules

It's still family farms, here.

[Smokin Joe]

Something they should be able to do over the internet by now.

Either they have to come to the tractor, or the tractor has to come to them. One you pay mileage and windshield time, in addition to the tech, provided they have the part...

The other involves loading the tractor on a semi and hauling it in...

Neither is an attractive proposition in terms of expense or downtime.

[sneakypete]

Sorry, Pete, wrong.
THe legislature tried to exempt hog and dairy operations form the corporate farm ban in ND, but the issue was petitioned to the ballot:
http://www.agweb.com/article/opponents-of-corporate-farm-ban-exemption-raise-11-million-naa-associated-press/

(source)http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2016-06-14/north-dakota-voters-weigh-in-on-governor-farming-rules

It's still family farms, here.

I don't consider pork and dairy operations to be farms.

I don't know about dairy operations,but I have lived in states with big hog farms,and the corporations that own them have MUCHO political pull. Otherwise most of them would be closed. Massive ground water pollution and let's not talk about how  the air smells around them.

I have driven through Iowa in the summertime where some of the big cattle operations are,and even with the windows rolled up and the ac going,I could still smell the cattle offal.

[roamer_1]

And that is the problem in a nutshell.  The lobbyist for the "authorized personnel" won the fight in Congress when the law passed.  This is nothing but a protectionist domestic policy created by people that Ayn Rand called the "aristocracy of pull."

Yeah, that's right - and my observation is that the very same 'intellectual property protection' will expand to trucking and eventually automotive, motorcycles, and even garden tractors, lawn mowers and appliances before it's done.

It isn't whether you can fix it ~ you won't be allowed to fix it.

[roamer_1]

Now you know why this is such a big deal for the farmers. We are talking serious money here,and serious loss of money while the equipment is down because they only have a short time window to either plant or load their crops. I can only imagine what the JD and other dealers are now charging to diagnose and repair systems controlled by computers. My old loader is a 1993 model,and lights and an alternator to charge the battery are the only electronics on it. Everything else is hydraulic.

I get it. I don't know if there is a fix for it though- I wonder if a guy might be better off restoring old pre-computerized equipment and making do. I know we did that, but we're not farmers... we're earth movers and landscapers. I don't know if farmers could make that work considering the scale of operation one needs to turn a buck.

And it's a temporary fix in the long run - sooner or later, the manufacturer quits selling parts for the old stuff and eventually you can't help but buy into the newer used stuff that will inevitably contain protected technology... But it might work for a generation...

[JustPassinThru]

You don't have to wait. Every dealership I know of will be more than happy to send a mechanic to where the equipment is,and have them repair it right there.

The problem with that is, most family farmers operate on a razor-thin profit margin.  There just isn't $500 flat-rate and travel lying around to come and diagnose CPU no. 35A in the GFUB is bad...and we have one here, it's another $899.  Or, we don't have one here, but we can get one ordered from the plant in Trashkanistan, and get it out here next week.  For another charge for service at the customer's premises.

In years past, when a tractor went down, the farmer would fix it.  If it took all day.  If it was below freezing.  He would get paid NOTHING, except that the machine would work again, after a time and a lot of effort.  One farmer I knew of had eight old tractors...all identical, all bought second-hand.  When one went down, he would either strip a part off one in the barn or else just change out.  No time lost; and then in the depths of winter he'd repair them all.

That's not feasible with this modern CPU stuff.  And what's brought this on, as with most bad things, is GOVERNMENT.

[JustPassinThru]

The place to drive truck is the oil patch, BTW, usually shorter hauls with liquids and HAZMAT, hauling anything from crude oil to drilling mud to fuel or fresh/salt water. There are 'dry' loads, too. That generally pays fairly well. The rig moving industry lost 2/3-3/4 of the market when 'walking' rigs came out, drilling on multiwell pads. And the whole industry purt'near imploded when oil prices dropped, but anything associated with oil production is ongoing, and that oil and salt water is commonly hauled at least short distances by truck. The one place on shore where the hit hasn't been so bad in the Permian Basin Area in Texas.

 OTR, from what I have heard, is where drivers who aren't owner operators get screwed.

I looked into that oil-patch stuff about four years ago.

They're not looking for truck drivers.  They're looking for ROUGHNECKS who know how to drive trucks.

I was 54 years old then and not in the best of shape; and when the time came for a field evaluation - all of us new candidates were to carry a three-inch charged hose up a thirty-foot ladder.  Part of the work of collecting and disposing of saline water.

I couldn't.  I was also the oldest in the group.  Next oldest was about forty and looked like someone out of the Grapes of Wrath.  Whip-thin and bulging muscles.  He was puffing.

So...no sale. 

[JustPassinThru]

The farmers should get in touch with the car modding community in the UK. They fought the same fight and won. 

Different government.

Size equates to power and also rigidity.  The American Central Government and its bloated bureaucracy are bigger than anything imaginable in the UK.

[Smokin Joe]

I don't consider pork and dairy operations to be farms.

I don't know about dairy operations,but I have lived in states with big hog farms,and the corporations that own them have MUCHO political pull. Otherwise most of them would be closed. Massive ground water pollution and let's not talk about how  the air smells around them.

I have driven through Iowa in the summertime where some of the big cattle operations are,and even with the windows rolled up and the ac going,I could still smell the cattle offal.

I don't think I made that clear, so let me try again.

The other farms are not exempt from the corporate farm ban here. The exemption was for pork and dairy operations to try to stimulate those sectors through allowing corporate operations. The farmers here said "NO!" in a big way, raising a war chest of over a million to stop the lifting of the ban--no exemption for hog or dairy producers, no corporate farms.
They were just trying to keep pork and dairy operations from becoming corporate feedlot operations.

It succeeded in stopping the exemption, which means all farms (including livestock) remain private, and family held.

[Smokin Joe]

I looked into that oil-patch stuff about four years ago.

They're not looking for truck drivers.  They're looking for ROUGHNECKS who know how to drive trucks.

I was 54 years old then and not in the best of shape; and when the time came for a field evaluation - all of us new candidates were to carry a three-inch charged hose up a thirty-foot ladder.  Part of the work of collecting and disposing of saline water.

I couldn't.  I was also the oldest in the group.  Next oldest was about forty and looked like someone out of the Grapes of Wrath.  Whip-thin and bulging muscles.  He was puffing.

So...no sale.

I thought I'd mention it. There are a lot of opportunities out there for younger men than ourselves. We're pretty close in age, and I have found I'm not 25 any more...It is limiting when a guy is looking for work.

[roamer_1]

I have found I'm not 25 any more...It is limiting [...]

Yeah... Used to be this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUXxWlkom-g

Now I'm this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQrapQ4d0Y

[Smokin Joe]

Yeah... Used to be this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUXxWlkom-g

Now I'm this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQrapQ4d0Y

I may not be as good as I once was, but I'm good once as I ever was!

[sneakypete]

The problem with that is, most family farmers operate on a razor-thin profit margin.  There just isn't $500 flat-rate and travel lying around to come and diagnose CPU no. 35A in the GFUB is bad...and we have one here, it's another $899.  Or, we don't have one here, but we can get one ordered from the plant in Trashkanistan, and get it out here next week.  For another charge for service at the customer's premises.

In years past, when a tractor went down, the farmer would fix it.  If it took all day.  If it was below freezing.  He would get paid NOTHING, except that the machine would work again, after a time and a lot of effort.  One farmer I knew of had eight old tractors...all identical, all bought second-hand.  When one went down, he would either strip a part off one in the barn or else just change out.  No time lost; and then in the depths of winter he'd repair them all.

That's not feasible with this modern CPU stuff.  And what's brought this on, as with most bad things, is GOVERNMENT.

@JustPassinThru

Everything you wrote is true,but you are overlooking one critical factor. The new machines are so much more efficient a farmer would be nuts to go the "less production to save money on equipment" route.

Back in the 60's and earlier most tractors sold were similar in size and performance to my 57 Ford 640. 4 cylinder OHV gasoline engine with 30 HP at the PTO. These days that is the kind of antique tractor "hobby farmers" with 5 acre horse farms buy to haul feed to the horses and the byproduct of that feed off for disposal. No way in hell will that thing pull enough discs to even plow up enough rows by the end of the day to earn a living. One local I know has a JD that pulls gang rows of discs and has 280 hp. He is so cheap he drives a 25 year old pu,and his wife drives a 4 cylinder VW she inherited from her mother.

They didn't spend mega-bucks to buy that JD because they like spending money. Trust me on this one.

[JustPassinThru]

@JustPassinThru

Everything you wrote is true,but you are overlooking one critical factor. The new machines are so much more efficient a farmer would be nuts to go the "less production to save money on equipment" route.

Back in the 60's and earlier most tractors sold were similar in size and performance to my 57 Ford 640. 4 cylinder OHV gasoline engine with 30 HP at the PTO. These days that is the kind of antique tractor "hobby farmers" with 5 acre horse farms buy to haul feed to the horses and the byproduct of that feed off for disposal. No way in hell will that thing pull enough discs to even plow up enough rows by the end of the day to earn a living. One local I know has a JD that pulls gang rows of discs and has 280 hp. He is so cheap he drives a 25 year old pu,and his wife drives a 4 cylinder VW she inherited from her mother.

They didn't spend mega-bucks to buy that JD because they like spending money. Trust me on this one.

No...but I'd suggest there's a point of diminishing returns.  That the heavy payments on those Space-Age machines eat up most of the extra profit - and then some.

I grant you a Ford Golden Harvester is not exactly up to the tasks of modern farming - it was hardly up to it when new, which was why Ford was always, after WWII, a niche player before getting out entirely.

But I've seen other ways.  One method that sticks to my memory, was of a Caterpillar 'dozer with a three-point hitch on the rear that a farmer was using with a disc harrow.  Not being a farmer, I don't know how that went - or how he got a PTO off the hydraulic drive of a Cat bulldozer.  I just saw it in the fields once on my way to work...thirty years ago.

And I get back to an earlier point:  When you can't do without this equipment, and its too expensive to buy/maintain...it's time to find another line of work.

Go Galt.

[Smokin Joe]

No...but I'd suggest there's a point of diminishing returns.  That the heavy payments on those Space-Age machines eat up most of the extra profit - and then some.

I grant you a Ford Golden Harvester is not exactly up to the tasks of modern farming - it was hardly up to it when new, which was why Ford was always, after WWII, a niche player before getting out entirely.

But I've seen other ways.  One method that sticks to my memory, was of a Caterpillar 'dozer with a three-point hitch on the rear that a farmer was using with a disc harrow.  Not being a farmer, I don't know how that went - or how he got a PTO off the hydraulic drive of a Cat bulldozer.  I just saw it in the fields once on my way to work...thirty years ago.

And I get back to an earlier point:  When you can't do without this equipment, and its too expensive to buy/maintain...it's time to find another line of work.

Go Galt.

Where the really high dollar equipment came was farming scaled up. It's a chicken/egg proposition, but the farm had to get larger to raise more grain to pay the bills and have something left over. To do that without an army of kids who would work the farm took fancier and fancier equipment. As the dollar dropped in value, the price of the (union made) equipment went up, but farm commodities didn't. Everyone wants cheap bread, just like they want cheap gasoline, but the people who work the ridiculous hours farming or drilling oil wells want to get paid too. Both farmers and drillers got more efficient so they could make a living--but in both cases, that took more computerized equipment.

Granted, 25 to 30 years ago, a computer was fairly rare in either venue, but now they are commonplace and almost necessary to function at the efficiency levels demanded.

The other trick, however, isn't how much you grow, but what you grow. I know a fellow near Culbertson, Montana who made a decent living raising pumpkins and squash on just a couple of acres. He never picked either, but sent the blossoms to New York and other 5 star restaurants air freight where they were used in some sort of organic haute cuisine. Such niche markets can keep the little guy alive, but it takes some research and seeking out the sort of connections that get a guy in ahead of the competition.

Then that little tractor will get the job done just fine, and the computer is reserved for orders and accounting. 

[sneakypete]

No...but I'd suggest there's a point of diminishing returns.  That the heavy payments on those Space-Age machines eat up most of the extra profit - and then some.<<

You would be wrong. If that were true,they wouldn't buy them. Farming is not only a business,but it is one of the businesses where people grow up in and are taught from the time they are children to not be careless with money because you might be flush this year,but you could be facing drought or heavy rain storms the next two or three years in a row,and not make a dime.

And I get back to an earlier point:  When you can't do without this equipment, and its too expensive to buy/maintain...it's time to find another line of work.<<

It is NOT too expensive to buy or maintain for serious farmers. If it were,they wouldn't buy it.

If you want to know the biggest factor when it comes to putting family farms out of business it was the Roosevelt-era farm subsidy programs that paid farmers to not farm. I know a BUNCH of farm families that are no longer farm families because they did what people are prone to do,and took advantage of a good situation. They ended up getting factory jobs and/or opening small businesses and completely neglecting their farms while spending the subsidy money on new houses,new cars,vacations,etc,etc,etc. Which means they didn't update their farm equipment like they would have if they had been working the farm and pulling in the crop sale money that would have resulted in them having enough money to keep the equipment up and running. Most even ended up selling their larger and more expensive pieces of farm equipment because they weren't using them anymore,and liked the "easy money" from the sales.

When the soil bank/timber bank money finally ran out,they had no seed,no equipment to farm with,and fields with trees growing in them. Most just kept working the factory jobs and over time sold off the farm land as they needed money. I personally know one such family that has sold off more than 700 acres over the last 30-40 years,and every damn bit of it was owned outright with no liens and had been productive farmland when the grandfather was still alive. They could have leased it to other farmers and still owned it and made some money from it,but they didn't. They wanted the big bucks and they wanted it NOW.

The next generation of that family will grow up owning nothing because the houses they grew up in will be sold to settle the estate amongst the children,and they COULD have been millionaires if their parents had just kept working the farms.

As I wrote earlier,if you are not a farmer already and want to be a farmer,if you have enough cash money to buy the land and the equipment,you have too much money to be working for a living.

Go Galt.

[thackney]

Farm equipment is all off-road equipment so they don't really come under the highway regulations,and it's all diesel-powered,so ethanol and similar crap doesn't come into play.

EPA Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel got their hooks into Off-Road in 2010.

http://www.clean-diesel.org/nonroad.html