Author Topic: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas  (Read 3731 times)

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Offline thackney

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USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
http://www.ogj.com/articles/2016/06/usgs-estimates-colorado-s-mancos-shale-to-hold-66-tcf-of-gas.html?cmpid=EnlDailyJune102016&eid=288236314&bid=1430477
06/10/2016

The Mancos shale of the Piceance basin in Colorado holds mean undiscovered, technically recoverable resources of 66 tcf of shale natural gas, 74 million bbl of shale oil, and 45 million bbl of NGLs, according to an updated assessment by the US Geological Survey.

The previous USGS assessment of Mancos was completed in 2003 as part of a comprehensive assessment of the greater Uinta-Piceance province. That estimate amounted to 1.6 tcf of shale gas.

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Offline thackney

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2016, 10:34:52 pm »
Most natural gas production growth is expected to come from shale gas and tight oil plays
http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=26552
June 7, 2016

The growth in total U.S. dry natural gas production projected in the Annual Energy Outlook 2016 (AEO2016) Reference case results mostly from increased development of shale gas and tight oil plays. Natural gas resources in tight sandstone and carbonate formations (often referred to as tight gas) also contribute to the growth to a lesser extent, while production from other sources of natural gas such as offshore, Alaska, and coalbed methane remains relatively steady or declines.

Natural gas production from shale gas and tight oil plays now makes up about half of the U.S. total dry natural gas production. In the AEO2016 Reference case, production from shale gas and tight oil plays is projected to grow from about 14 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) in 2015 to 29 Tcf in 2040, making up 69% of the 2040 total dry natural gas production. This category includes natural gas produced from shale formations as well as from tight oil plays, which are low-permeability sandstones, carbonates, and shale formations. The specific plays included in this category are the Sanish-Three Forks (part of the Bakken), Eagle Ford, Woodford, Austin Chalk, Spraberry, Niobrara, Avalon-Bone Springs, and Monterey formations.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2016, 06:24:54 am »
Good info. Glad to see you have been keeping your feet dry--keep it up!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2016, 01:13:56 pm »
USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
http://www.ogj.com/articles/2016/06/usgs-estimates-colorado-s-mancos-shale-to-hold-66-tcf-of-gas.html?cmpid=EnlDailyJune102016&eid=288236314&bid=1430477
06/10/2016

The Mancos shale of the Piceance basin in Colorado holds mean undiscovered, technically recoverable resources of 66 tcf of shale natural gas, 74 million bbl of shale oil, and 45 million bbl of NGLs, according to an updated assessment by the US Geological Survey.

The previous USGS assessment of Mancos was completed in 2003 as part of a comprehensive assessment of the greater Uinta-Piceance province. That estimate amounted to 1.6 tcf of shale gas.



Mancos is an alright play but like the Niobrara, it has a lot of variability, and is not a 'blanket' situation.  It is easy to get really big numbers when one takes Acres x feet x GIP/AF.  There will be pockets of good recovery present as well as much of the area not as good.

Examples abound, such as the heralded Eagleford, where only perhaps 10-20% of its extent has been worth developing so far.

Price will make the diff, and over the long run, it will certainly go up.  What we do not know is how long that might take.

So like Smokin Joe told the Bakken farmers, bank it, but do not expect to rely on it.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2016, 05:40:25 pm »
I'll also offer the following article as to the accuracy of EIA/USGS predictions.  They so wildly overestimated the Monterrey Shale's recoverable oil, that in just 4 years they revised this prediction by 96% downward.  They have made similar revisions to other plays, including the Bakken.

If that ain't just plain guessing, then I do not know what is.

I suspect that politics has infiltrated this 'Technical' Agency just like the Corps of Engineers.

Quote
In 2011, the EIA published a report that stated the Monterey Shale in California had 15.4 billion barrels of recoverable oil, or two-thirds of the then estimated recoverable tight oil in the US. The EIA subsequently downgraded its estimate to 13.7 billion barrels in 2013. Post Carbon Institute and PSE Healthy Energy doubted the veracity of these estimates, and I worked with them to assess the EIA’s claims by analyzing available drilling data and the geology of the Monterey formation. In December 2013 they published my report, Drilling California: A Reality Check on the Monterey Shale, which concluded that the EIA’s estimate was vastly overstated. A few months later, the EIA quietly downgraded its estimate by 96% to 600 million barrels, but the revision was picked up by the Los Angeles Times in May 2014.

Yesterday the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) released a report stating that the mean technically recoverable oil resource in the Monterey was just 21 million barrels, a further 96% downgrade from the revised 2014 EIA estimate.

To put this in perspective a resource which in 2011 the EIA estimated was 15.4 billion barrels—enough oil to meet all of U.S. needs for over two years—has been reduced to 21 million barrels, or enough oil to meet U.S. needs for only 26 hours. The initial estimate caused wildly overblown optimism within industry and government on the energy and economic future of California and major concerns within environmental groups about the effects of fracking to recover these resources on the environment.

Unfortunately, the excessive estimates for the Monterey are not the EIA’s only episode of unfounded optimism. I have since looked at EIA estimates for all major tight oil and shale gas plays in the U.S. and found them highly to extremely optimistic when analyzed in the light of actual drilling and production data (see Drilling Deeper; Shale Gas Reality Check and Tight Oil Reality Check). Nor does it appear that the EIA has learned from its mistakes. In the most recent Annual Energy Outlook, the EIA raised its projections for cumulative oil production from the Bakken Play (the 2nd largest in the U.S.) by 85%—despite the fact that production in the play is already down more than 5% from its December 2014 high, and would require the production of twice as much oil through 2040 as the 2013 USGS assessment estimated was technically recoverable from the play.

The people of the United States are not well served by unrealistic and overblown forecasts. Future energy supply is a huge concern and realistic forecasts are crucial in formulating energy policy to ensure future sustainability. [/unquote]



http://www.postcarbon.org/usgs-downgrade-of-recoverable-oil-in-the-monterey-shale-of-california/
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2016, 07:54:23 pm »
Bakken revisions have continued upward for some time.

Keep in mind, that as more is learned about the Bakken/Three Forks oil system, those revisions may be revised in the other direction, but the USGS was slow to raise those estimates from the start of the boom in North Dakota. (Elm Coulee Field was well on its way to being developed in MT, by then.)

Production declines are likely a combination of initial depletion phases for wells completed in the last two years and the reduction in new completions and drilled wells, but those only affect the amount of estimated recoverable oil by reducing the rate at which it is being recovered, without affecting the amount of the resource present otherwise.

If we factor in the possible effects of frac advances, re-fracs, and the refinement of technique, both in drilling and in completions, the recoverability increases, and the revisions may reflect that (and existing recovery information which exceeds previous expectations) more than any new resource.

In Elm Coulee, original estimates were from 3% to 5% of calculated oil in place was recoverable. When production passed 10% of calculated OIP on some wells, those recoverable oil estimates had to be revised and rethought.

That said, EIA has been known over the years to getting some stuff wrong (Like the global oil glut predicted during the Clinton Administration which failed to take in Asian demand, but crashed oil prices anyway). I'd be more inclined to go with the USGS numbers because they have a scientific reputation on the line and tend to be more conservative in their estimates and in their revisions, prefering to revise numbers upward in the future rather than downward. For a scientist, remaining credible for the duration of a career is more important than for a bureaucrat.

The thought does cross my mind that if politics were to enter the picture somehow, revising recoverable estimates upward overall would tend to depress prices overall, something which seems all too common in a presidential election year.

Of course, such downward revisions, if connected to cronies in an area, could reduce the price of exploration leases significantly and affect royalty deals as well, making overall efforts more profitable.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 08:19:39 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2016, 09:48:07 pm »
As a reservoir engineer, I still have trouble attributing anything over 10% of OOIP to such a tight rock.  Oil just cannot flow through those small pores effectively.  Likely a lot of the reserves produced exist in the natural fractures system, and even more likely it is a simple incorrect denominator of OOIP.  Those fracs go well outside the Middle Bakken as I have seen repeatedly in Microseismic events, so the laterals completed in the MB are accessing a lot more OOIP than exists in the MB.  Hence, recoveries are overestimated.

And we really do not know how much of the OOIP in the Bakken shales is being produced, either.

Call me a skeptic for those higher RFs.

As far as the politics of those in govt making resource assessments, I remain skeptical that even those scientists would not impinge their reputations to advance a political cause.

Just look at scientists like Energy Secretaries Ernest Moniz (a nuclear physicist who gave assurance that Iran's nuclear capability posed no threat), or Steven Chu, a physicist who was so paranoid on climate change that he vigorously went after hydraulic fracturing as posing a major threat and trumpeted getting out of fossil fuels altogether as it was necessary for mitigating climate change and was all-in for renewables.

Call me a skeptic that govt scientists are not ready to be politicized.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2016, 10:17:15 pm »
As a reservoir engineer, I still have trouble attributing anything over 10% of OOIP to such a tight rock.  Oil just cannot flow through those small pores effectively.  Likely a lot of the reserves produced exist in the natural fractures system, and even more likely it is a simple incorrect denominator of OOIP.  Those fracs go well outside the Middle Bakken as I have seen repeatedly in Microseismic events, so the laterals completed in the MB are accessing a lot more OOIP than exists in the MB.  Hence, recoveries are overestimated.

And we really do not know how much of the OOIP in the Bakken shales is being produced, either.

Call me a skeptic for those higher RFs.

As far as the politics of those in govt making resource assessments, I remain skeptical that even those scientists would not impinge their reputations to advance a political cause.

Just look at scientists like Energy Secretaries Ernest Moniz (a nuclear physicist who gave assurance that Iran's nuclear capability posed no threat), or Steven Chu, a physicist who was so paranoid on climate change that he vigorously went after hydraulic fracturing as posing a major threat and trumpeted getting out of fossil fuels altogether as it was necessary for mitigating climate change and was all-in for renewables.

Call me a skeptic that govt scientists are not ready to be politicized.
Some of the government scientists make a living by being politicized. (Climate Change bunch, especially, but there are others), but not all.

However. as a geologist, it dawned on me long ago that aside from some electrical, mechanical, and nuclear logs, and the crumbs the drill bit allowed to make it to the surface from what amounts to an area the size of the quarter on the 50 yard line of a football field (if that), we really don't know a hell of a lot about what is going on down there. Assumptions are made on the basis of uniformity in thickness and other physical properties, which anyone just walking across the ground for a mile and really paying attention to what is beneath their feet knows is never entirely the case.

We have working assumptions, but then we drill into something like Red Wing Creek, and they are shot to hell.

I found a lot of oil in formations everyone "knew" did not produce.

Working in the Three Bar unit in Nevada long ago and seeing some of the borehole imaging logs indicated what we didn't see in samples: voids, fractures, and entire cave systems, for starters.

Watching a NUMAR hand in distress over unrepeatable results in an inclined wellbore in a carbonate until we discussed centralizers on the tool and macrofossil content in the rock brought home that the properties are anything but isometric. Extrapolate that to paleo karsts and solution enhanced fracture systems, brecciation where salt collapses have occurred at depth and other features beyond our immediate ken (slump features, impact sites) and which don't always clearly show on seismic(if there is any available), and there is a lot of potential for hidden reserves which could not be quantified except in retrospect through production. Then, too, there is that little problem of migration and basin hydrodynamics.

It has always been a matter of our best guess as to what is down there. While horizontal drilling will answer some of those questions, keep in mind that that wellbore is the equivalent of less than a lane line on the LA Freeway system, and sometimes those data gained pose more questions than answers.

So, we're back to the fundamentals of core data or log data, estimated porosity, overall thickness, Sw, and an educated guess of Oil In Place. Then we guess how much we can get out, and if we're lucky, we get more...and then try to figure out why.

I am convinced of one thing. The more I learn, the less I know (the new data always raises more questions).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2016, 12:25:14 am »
I am convinced of one thing. The more I learn, the less I know (the new data always raises more questions).

You can take that one to the bank.  And I thought all you scientists were so convinced you know it all.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2016, 02:33:08 am »
You can take that one to the bank.  And I thought all you scientists were so convinced you know it all.
LOL! If we knew it all, we'd be out of a job!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2016, 03:10:51 am »
The Mancos must cover a huge area.  I remember looking at Mancos shale samples that came from a fellow geologist's 800' water well near Capitan, NM.  His objective was the Dakota ss.  His theory was that it appeared a meteorite had split into 3 pieces.  One piece hit Goat mountain, another hit his ranch near Capitan, NM and another hit a neighbors ranch.  The idea was that the meteorite gave the Dakota ss a heck of a frac job...lol.  It turns out that his water well in the Dakota ss was the best water well in the county....go figure.  It was interesting to see the tektites that were strewn around the small impact site.
We have a known impact site up at Red Wing Creek (on this side of the border, two on the Canadian side of the Williston Basin), but I think there may be more. An offset parallel lateral hit the Bakken Shale six times, and we hit it two, but twice we went through it in less than a foot of TVD, once going up, and once going down (not the usual 20 ft. there). Something disrupted the heck out of the formation.

I worked a well in another area where there was a tight sand (that everyone knew would not produce) but we were near a wrench fault. The d@mned thing nearly blew us out of the hole and it took 13.8 lb mud to kill the kick. that was fun. It was being drilled for an injection well in a deeper formation for secondary recovery, but when I finally convinced the folks in the office that we had what we had, I think they reconsidered and produced the gas/condensate instead.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 03:14:33 am by Smokin Joe »
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2016, 03:41:36 am »
I remember years ago, maybe the late 80's, the geologist I worked with wanted me to invest in a co. that had a huge acreage position in the Dakota's.  They were drilling for an exciting new reservoir, which was the Bakken.  The company was Burlington Railroad, which became Burlington Resources, then became Meridian I think....not sure who bought them out after that.  The railroad had a massive acreage position along the railroad right of ways.  I did invest as he insisted, but sold way too early, as is always the case....lol.  It was very interesting to read about the Bakken and I still love reading about it.....quite the find.
Those wells were drilled in the mid-80s. The people working that one were not aobut to let anyone else in on that action, and I didn't get to work my first horizontal well until 1990, in the Ratcliffe Formation up in Montana. The problem with those earliest Bakken wells wasn't that they had a bad idea, but that they drilled in the shale itself, not the Middle Bakken. The Shale was fraught with problems, frac tech wasn't what it is now, and the shale wasn't as good a reservoir as the tight, but porous Middle Bakken. Not many of those wells made payout, iirc.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2016, 09:41:30 am »
I remember years ago, maybe the late 80's, the geologist I worked with wanted me to invest in a co. that had a huge acreage position in the Dakota's.  They were drilling for an exciting new reservoir, which was the Bakken.  The company was Burlington Railroad, which became Burlington Resources, then became Meridian I think....not sure who bought them out after that.  The railroad had a massive acreage position along the railroad right of ways.  I did invest as he insisted, but sold way too early, as is always the case....lol.  It was very interesting to read about the Bakken and I still love reading about it.....quite the find.

ConocoPhillips bought Burlington Resources in 2006.

http://www.ogfj.com/articles/print/volume-3/issue-2/upstream-news/conocophillips-acquires-burlington-resources-for-356-billion-set-to-become-leading-natural-gas-producer-in-north-america.html
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Online IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2016, 01:11:25 pm »
I remember years ago, maybe the late 80's, the geologist I worked with wanted me to invest in a co. that had a huge acreage position in the Dakota's.  They were drilling for an exciting new reservoir, which was the Bakken.  The company was Burlington Railroad, which became Burlington Resources, then became Meridian I think....not sure who bought them out after that.  The railroad had a massive acreage position along the railroad right of ways.  I did invest as he insisted, but sold way too early, as is always the case....lol.  It was very interesting to read about the Bakken and I still love reading about it.....quite the find.

Almost every basin has that zone that will have shows when penetrated.  Most of the time those are not the producers of hydrocarbons. The Bakken shales is the poster child.
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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2016, 01:15:21 pm »
The d@mned thing nearly blew us out of the hole and it took 13.8 lb mud to kill the kick. that was fun.

You must not have been sitting that particular well, but reading reports in the office.

Being onsite during a kick like that where the mudpits are gaining fast is never fun.  Makes you nervous as hell.  The drillers who I knew that took 'em headed to the bars immediately after their shift ended.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2016, 09:17:49 pm »
You must not have been sitting that particular well, but reading reports in the office.

Being onsite during a kick like that where the mudpits are gaining fast is never fun.  Makes you nervous as hell.  The drillers who I knew that took 'em headed to the bars immediately after their shift ended.
No, I was on site.

The zone was known, but not the least productive in that area (infield)--just too tight.

We just hit the right spot in the fracture system adjacent to a suspected wrench fault (Which we were informed about after we drilled into it, because no one in the office considered it a hazard where we were).

I'm the guy who used cardboard for a radiant heat shield and collected samples of the condensate coming out of the blooey line with a couple of mop handles duct taped together and a coffee can. (It helped to have had some serious flammable liquids and gasses firefighting training when I was a firefighter).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2016, 12:58:27 pm »
No, I was on site.

The zone was known, but not the least productive in that area (infield)--just too tight.

We just hit the right spot in the fracture system adjacent to a suspected wrench fault (Which we were informed about after we drilled into it, because no one in the office considered it a hazard where we were).

I'm the guy who used cardboard for a radiant heat shield and collected samples of the condensate coming out of the blooey line with a couple of mop handles duct taped together and a coffee can. (It helped to have had some serious flammable liquids and gasses firefighting training when I was a firefighter).

And you say that was fun?  sounds like you were of tender age and still learning.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2016, 02:19:00 pm »
Green River formation is in Colorado too right? Any relationship?

Offline thackney

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2016, 03:58:34 pm »
Green River formation is in Colorado too right? Any relationship?

The Mancos was deposited during the Cenomanian through Campanian ages, approximately from 95 to 80 million years ago.

The Green River formation was deposited during Eocene ages, approximately  56 to 34 million years ago.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: USGS estimates Colorado’s Mancos shale to hold 66 tcf of gas
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2016, 12:05:06 am »
And you say that was fun?  sounds like you were of tender age and still learning.
Not so tender, mid 30s, about a dozen years in the field at that point. (I enjoyed being a fireman back when, too. )  The challenge was to prove to the office folks that the liquid running out the end of the line as we got to the end of the bubble wasn't water, but condensate. When you put a bottle of it in their hand, that's the fun part.

Besides, it was a beautiful day, sun shining, lovely scenery, temps just right in the mid 60s. No one hurt, no one died, and we really didn't break anything. It doesn't get any better than that, as surprises in that part of Wyoming go.

BTW, on occasion, I use the word 'fun' sarcastically, too.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis