Author Topic: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval  (Read 21333 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #225 on: June 01, 2016, 10:57:30 pm »
A bad deal for whom?  Unions?  Poorly run companies?  Let's hear your case.  Please explain how getting cheaper oil from Canada or cheaper tomatoes from Mexico or cheaper textiles from Honduras is a bad deal.  Also, explain how increasing exports to Mexico or Canada is also a bad deal.  Inquiring minds want to know.

http://economyincrisis.org/content/why-nafta-is-bad-for-the-u-s

Current trade deficit with Mexico ...$91 billion

I wonder why I bother posting things people don't read.
This doesn't involve Mexico.
It involves Canada, on the Northern Border, who is the single largest supplier of foreign crude oil to the United States (More than Saudi Arabia). Ensuring a ready market for our neighbor's crude oil, (which is a heavy crude oil) not only keeps their development going, but means the refineries set up to refine that gravity of crude oil could be getting their feedstocks from Canada instead of places like Venezuela and Iran.

American oil would travel on that pipeline, too.

Part of pricing at the wellhead for oil is something called "takeaway capacity". When there is more oil than ability to deliver it, the bid price of the oil drops below market price (is "discounted") in an effort to get it on the pipeline. At one point, in the Williston Basin, Bakken oil was selling for $30.00/bbl LESS because there was no way to get it to refineries. That prompted the construction of multiple rail terminals to ship the oil out. Just how good was that for America and American companies, especially those trying to reach payout on wells so they could roll that money back into lease acquisition and drilling programs?

Canadian oil will find a way to market, whether we are that market, or the Chinese. Their economy depends on resource extraction (mining, oil and Gas) to a large degree, along with agriculture. In the geopolitical scheme of things, we would do well to not only keep our production moving better, but to ensure that the oil produced by our neighbor did not become a 'vital foreign interest' of another power which might well be adversarial in the very near future.  At the same time, it would facilitate the delivery of oil to us by a power not engaged in funding terrorism, and improve the takeaway capacity for our own oil.
Not to mention an estimated 80,000 jobs involved in constructing the line.
Considering the Taxpayer isn't funding it, that sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 12:12:47 am by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #226 on: June 01, 2016, 11:03:43 pm »
What kind of a deal? A deal deal, maybe the guy's a republican.
A "deal deal"? What is that? WhoopieGoldbergspeak?

There is no one "deal", but hundreds, if not thousands of individual 'deals' which make a project of that magnitude come together. Perhaps Mr. Trump figures they left a line item off the cost of doing 'bidness', but this isn't building a hotel in Noo Yawk. Maybe he's just holding out for a cut.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #227 on: June 01, 2016, 11:06:55 pm »
Are you that big a fan of Bill Clinton and Open borders?

Come clean....

The Mexican and other country's rural farmers and ranchers were destroyed by NAFTA. That caused many illegals coming to this country.
I hate to bust your bubble, but NAFTA was signed in 1992, during the Presidency of George H.W. Bush. It didn't go into effect until 1994.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #228 on: June 01, 2016, 11:40:39 pm »
A "deal deal"? What is that? WhoopieGoldbergspeak?

There is no one "deal", but hundreds, if not thousands of individual 'deals' which make a project of that magnitude come together. Perhaps Mr. Trump figures they left a line item off the cost of doing 'bidness', but this isn't building a hotel in Noo Yawk. Maybe he's just holding out for a cut.
You haven't seen Kelly's Heros?!?!? *bouche*

I was just making a joke. You have a very valid point. 

“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Online Hoodat

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #229 on: June 01, 2016, 11:42:56 pm »
The Mexican and other country's rural farmers and ranchers were destroyed by NAFTA. That caused many illegals coming to this country.

Another lie.  You're on a roll.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #230 on: June 02, 2016, 12:10:22 am »
You haven't seen Kelly's Heros?!?!? *bouche*

I was just making a joke. You have a very valid point.
Not in many years. My bad, it was on just recently, too. Great flick.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #231 on: June 02, 2016, 04:10:13 am »
True, that. Granted, some of that was going to happen anyway: many of those refineries just aren't on the other end of a pipe, and Keystone XL was only going to take about 100,000 BOPD (about 10% of ND production).  Once the Bakken Boom got going, rail terminals were being built because it was the only way to go for a significant amount of the crude, even if Keystone XL had been built already.

The rail transport has opened a lot of markets to domestic crude that would be still getting their light sweet crude off a boat, and helped drop the NYMEX/BRENT split.

Always wondered why a Canadian-sourced pipeline is necessary to bring oil from one US state to another anyway? 

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #232 on: June 02, 2016, 04:27:35 am »
Always wondered why a Canadian-sourced pipeline is necessary to bring oil from one US state to another anyway?

Because it'd be there to use. 

There is no reason to build another one if there will already be one that can transport it.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #233 on: June 02, 2016, 08:04:25 am »
Always wondered why a Canadian-sourced pipeline is necessary to bring oil from one US state to another anyway?

IIRC...Oil producers in the U.S. could build feeder pipelines (which mean even more jobs) from their oilfields into the main Keystone line...then pay a small sum to have their oil transported in the Keystone pilepline to the refinery.

Think of it as access roads feeding traffic into a major 6 lane highway.

@Smokin Joe that's a pretty basic description right?
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Offline wolfcreek

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #234 on: June 02, 2016, 12:46:56 pm »
I hate to bust your bubble, but NAFTA was signed in 1992, during the Presidency of George H.W. Bush. It didn't go into effect until 1994.

Senate supporters were 34 Republicans and 27 Democrats. Clinton signed it into law on December 8, 1993; the agreement went into effect on January 1, 1994. Clinton, while signing the NAFTA bill, stated that "NAFTA means jobs. American jobs, and good-paying American jobs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

Pres. "read my lips" did initiate the treaty with other members of the globalist oligarchy.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 12:52:39 pm by wolfcreek »

Online Hoodat

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #235 on: June 02, 2016, 02:08:01 pm »
@wolfcreek

You still haven't answered the question.  Please explain how getting cheaper oil from Canada or cheaper tomatoes from Mexico or cheaper textiles from Honduras is a bad deal.  Also, explain how increasing exports to Mexico or Canada or Guatemala or Costa Rica is also a bad deal.  Inquiring minds want to know.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #236 on: June 02, 2016, 02:28:56 pm »
The Mexican and other country's rural farmers and ranchers were destroyed by NAFTA. That caused many illegals coming to this country.

Patently false.

Illegal immigration borders arrest have declined steadily since the implementation of NAFTA.

Additionally, up until the 2008 economic crash, U.S. unemployment rates were much lower in the decades following NAFTA than before the agreement came into effect, even at a time when the US labor force was growing steadily.

The ultimate beneficiaries of NAFTA have been the U.S. consumer, which, if one is running on an "America first" platform, should be reason enough to leave NAFTA alone.
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #237 on: June 02, 2016, 03:23:39 pm »
Patently false.

Illegal immigration borders arrest have declined steadily since the implementation of NAFTA.

Additionally, up until the 2008 economic crash, U.S. unemployment rates were much lower in the decades following NAFTA than before the agreement came into effect, even at a time when the US labor force was growing steadily.

The ultimate beneficiaries of NAFTA have been the U.S. consumer, which, if one is running on an "America first" platform, should be reason enough to leave NAFTA alone.
Not to jump into this argument on one side or the other; I'm free trade in theory, but not up to snuff on NAFTA.
I'm not sure using the number of arrests under the Obama administration is of any use since he has practically given orders to ignore the law and not arrest illegal immigrants.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #238 on: June 02, 2016, 03:28:13 pm »
Not to jump into this argument on one side or the other; I'm free trade in theory, but not up to snuff on NAFTA.
I'm not sure using the number of arrests under the Obama administration is of any use since he has practically given orders to ignore the law and not arrest illegal immigrants.

Arrests began to decline in 2000 and continued declining through both GWB terms in office.
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #239 on: June 02, 2016, 03:33:18 pm »
Arrests began to decline in 2000 and continued declining through both GWB terms in office.

With all due respect I cannot say this flies:



However it does look like NAFTA had a negligible effect on illegals, who started increasing in 1990 and never changed the rate of increase during the 90's.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #240 on: June 02, 2016, 03:48:26 pm »
With all due respect I cannot say this flies:



However it does look like NAFTA had a negligible effect on illegals, who started increasing in 1990 and never changed the rate of increase during the 90's.

Border arrests and population are different topics.

The increase in population includes visa overstays, etc.

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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #241 on: June 02, 2016, 04:10:34 pm »
Border arrests and population are different topics.

The increase in population includes visa overstays, etc.


Interesting; that was not how the media portrayed it at the time. I guess like that horrible high 4% unemployment rate we suffered for a while, it was a good way to make life look bad under an R president.
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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #242 on: June 02, 2016, 04:29:20 pm »
Arrests began to decline in 2000 and continued declining through both GWB terms in office.

When it comes to immigration, Luis, I've found your perspectives to be excellent beyond reproach.  You've actually changed my mind on some matters, and made me rethink some.  But, I have to join other posters to quibble a bit about using arrest rate statistics as a means of measuring illegal immigration, because it's too easy for any Administration to fudge those numbers. 

It's like the so-called "Unemployment Rate."  That number has to be the most overcooked book in DeeCee.
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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #243 on: June 02, 2016, 04:41:26 pm »
It's safe to conclude that NAFTA and illegal immigration are unrelated. 

As for illegal immigration, the big game changer in recent years has been all the free stuff that are now being offered to illegals, from education to health care to food stamps to subsidized insurance (yes, Joe Wilson was right).  Cut all those off, then illegal immigration will be for purely economic reasons such as better-paying jobs.  For this reason, it is in our national interests for the Mexican economy to improve.  A higher standard of living in Mexico translates to less economic immigration into the US.

NAFTA has been beneficial to the Mexican economy just as it has benefited ours.  The pie grows, people.  And increased economic activity in Mexico means more jobs for Mexicans in Mexico.  It's a no-brainer.  Unfortunately, some here have bought into the union lie that somehow NAFTA is responsible for union workers pricing their labor above sustainable levels.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #244 on: June 02, 2016, 07:17:34 pm »

As for illegal immigration, the big game changer in recent years has been all the free stuff that are now being offered to illegals, from education to health care to food stamps to subsidized insurance (yes, Joe Wilson was right).  Cut all those off, then illegal immigration will be for purely economic reasons such as better-paying jobs.  For this reason, it is in our national interests for the Mexican economy to improve.  A higher standard of living in Mexico translates to less economic immigration into the US.

NAFTA has been beneficial to the Mexican economy just as it has benefited ours.  The pie grows, people.  And increased economic activity in Mexico means more jobs for Mexicans in Mexico.  It's a no-brainer.  Unfortunately, some here have bought into the union lie that somehow NAFTA is responsible for union workers pricing their labor above sustainable levels.

With respect to the second point, I agree the Mexican economy has benefited.  As to the first point, yes, illegal immigration continues in part because of the freebees.  Unfortunately, after passage of the 2013 Senate bill on immigration reform, which would have ended the freebees, the Republican led House refused to consider it. 
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #245 on: June 02, 2016, 07:57:58 pm »
Because it'd be there to use. 

There is no reason to build another one if there will already be one that can transport it.

But if we have been waiting now 11 years since Keystone was originally proposed, seems it is well past time to have our own US pipeline built by now if it was truly commercial to do so.

It must not be then.
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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #246 on: June 02, 2016, 08:02:46 pm »
But if we have been waiting now 11 years since Keystone was originally proposed, seems it is well past time to have our own US pipeline built by now if it was truly commercial to do so.

It must not be then.

It probably requires the Canadian leg to be more attractive than Warren Buffet's trains.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #247 on: June 02, 2016, 08:03:30 pm »
IIRC...Oil producers in the U.S. could build feeder pipelines (which mean even more jobs) from their oilfields into the main Keystone line...then pay a small sum to have their oil transported in the Keystone pilepline to the refinery.

Think of it as access roads feeding traffic into a major 6 lane highway.

@Smokin Joe that's a pretty basic description right?

Sounds good, but I do not see it in fact acting that way.

Smokin Joe has said already that only 100,000 bopd of Bakken crude will use the Keystone pipeline.

In seeing this graph, http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Oil-Shipments-By-Rail-Declining.html, there is 600,000 bopd of Bakken crude moving by rail now.

@Smokin Joe
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #248 on: June 02, 2016, 08:12:07 pm »
It probably requires the Canadian leg to be more attractive than Warren Buffet's trains.

Maybe, but the entire Keystone pipeline once operational after Phase 3 will transport 830,000 bopd, while 600,000 bopd of Bakken crude is transported by rail right now.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Trump demands share of profits in exchange for Keystone approval
« Reply #249 on: June 02, 2016, 08:13:27 pm »
When it comes to immigration, Luis, I've found your perspectives to be excellent beyond reproach.  You've actually changed my mind on some matters, and made me rethink some.  But, I have to join other posters to quibble a bit about using arrest rate statistics as a means of measuring illegal immigration, because it's too easy for any Administration to fudge those numbers. 

It's like the so-called "Unemployment Rate."  That number has to be the most overcooked book in DeeCee.

How would you suggest that we get an accurate accounting of the number of people that we don't know are here?
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