Game of Thrones Thread

[Maj. Bill Martin]

So....any other fans of the show or books here?

[INVAR]

Show only. 

Haven't gotten into the books, and given the wait-time between books - I probably will pass on those and just let the show tell the story for me.

[INVAR]

Heh -- can't blame you.  I was actually one of those who started the books way back in 1996.  Never expected it would take this long.  Absolutely love his writing, for the most party.  But it is a lot of fun getting to watch the show now without knowing what is going to happen.  There have been some pretty obvious changes from the books, but still, it is more or less an unknown from this point forward.  And if he ever finishes writing it, that'll just be a chance to enjoy the rest of the story all over again.

Good episode on Sunday.  Generally not a fan at all of the gratuitous sex/nudity scenes, but that was one that actually mattered.

I just hope some of those other storylines get into gear.  Arya has been treading water forever, and all that stuff in Dorne seems completely irrelevant to this point.  They hit a homerun with the casting of Oberyn, but since then...bleh.

I think we are being set-up for shocking mayhem.  That Littlefinger is going to march troops from the Vale to Winterfell is unnerving, and I think we are not done with whatever the Sandsnakes and Dorne intend to unleash in conjunction with the Sparrows in Kings Landing.  I did applaud twice this past Sunday and it was played out nicely.  Was expecting Jorah and Daario to come a-calling with Drogon to help Daenny - and had forgotten that she not called The Unburnt for nothing.  Way to go there.  Obviously the Dothraki do not practice keeping the Secretary of State away from a joint session of Blood riders to keep a succession of power going.  Good one for the new Queen of the Dothraki.

[kevindavis007]

Love the show, never read the books..

[INVAR]

Yeah, great scene with Danaerys.

I'm a bit bothered by the continuity stuff in the north, though.  Winter was coming, and the bulk of Stannis' army perished in a horrific blizzard marching from the Wall to Winterfell.  But after that, when winter should be advancing, Sansa and her group merrily traipsed from the Winterfell to the Wall.  Now Jon is going to march back south with an army, and Littlefinger will be coming north with men of the Vale.  So is it global warming, or what?

The way the show seems to depict it - (or at least how I perceive it) - when the White Walkers are on the move and active - they bring Winter with them.

Recall that after Stannis lost a lot of men in the snow, Melissandre burned his daughter, and the next day the snows melted and Stannis marched South to his doom.  A major snow storm has not been depicted since.

Maybe that has something to do with Jon Snow, and maybe nothing at all.  We have not seen the White Walkers and the army of the dead since Hardhome.

We got a sneak of them in Bran's vision for this weekends show.

[INVAR]

That's an interesting point.  I've thought the same thing from the books, but didn't connect it with what is currently happening south of the Wall.  But I suppose I'd respond by saying there is no sign that the White Walkers have retreated at all.

Well, what if the winds and weather of Winter are a weapon the White Walkers use to conceal their movements and/or advancement?

We saw that happen when they were first spotted up on the cliffs moving towards Hardhome.  The blizzard came with them.

Also recall some time back when that baby from the shack was placed as an offering that there was no snow or ice falling when the Night King came and froze the infant.

[INVAR]

I agree with all that.  I think you're dead-on.  I just don't see that as an explanation for what happened to Stannis.

Hardhome is on a peninsula hundreds of miles northeast of Castle Black -- Winterfell is 5-600 miles southwest of Castle Black , so we may be talking nearly 1000 miles.  I can't see how the Others would have even known, or cared, about Stannis.  And as soon as the Others leave Hardhome, they're necessarily moving down that peninsula, and closer to the Castle Black, and therefore Winterfell.  So if the mere presence of the Others can actually affect weather nearly 1000 miles away, the weather should have kept getting worse after Hardhome and Stannis' battle.

And I suppose the other thing is that none of the characters have remarked on the weather at all, or seem remotely aware that we went from horrible blizzard to easy travelling weather.  If there was some unstated/unknown mystical explanation, you'd think they'd at least express some puzzlement over how the weather changed.  That's why it looks more like just a plot device to me.

But I suppose that's just nitpicking.

Well, Winter is coming.

The snowstorm that socked in the North (including at Winterfell) that resulted in Stannis' army getting stuck and left vulnerable happened at nearly the same time as the events at Hardhome.  Not saying that that blast of Winter was the result of the Others socking it to the entire North - but the Others do have the ability to herald snow and ice whenever they appear.  The implication is that when the Others are ready to move South - Winter comes with them.

My guess is that The Children of the Forest and The Others have some kind of symbiotic connection as to how seasons work in the fantasy world of Ice and Fire.  The Three-Eyed Raven may explain some of that to Bran.  Winters can last for 100s of years in this world, and perhaps the final outcome of the wars to come may result in a more 'annual' weather pattern?  The last time I ever saw the seasons used in a fantasy as a plot device was Ridley Scott's Legend.

As to the characters commenting on the weather - it seems they know about the long winters and think nothing of them other than to prepare for them.  I recall Tyrell discussing in a small council meeting that they did not have enough stores of grain to last half of a Winter if the Iron Bank called in their debts.

Melissandre seemed to believe that after burning Stannis' daughter that her god had performed a miracle for them in terms of ending the snows and melting them.  Who knows?  Maybe it's La Nina in the Shimmering  Sea or the Gulf Stream suddenly stops and starts?  Maybe Saruman is busy trying to bury the Fellowship…. er…. wrong franchise.

[INVAR]

Or maybe it's just me being anal, and not accepting that sometimes, you can get a freak heavy snowstorm early in the season, and then nothing else for awhile.

I suppose I should really consider that possibility too.....

It's more fun to imagine a plot reason for everything that occurs.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

So, uh...wow.

That had to be one of the most I formatiin-filled episodes ever, from the origins of the Others, to Hodor, to the Blackfish having retaken Winterfell...things are very clearly picking up.

Nice to see Little finger put in his place a bit as well.

[INVAR]

to the Blackfish having retaken Winterfell...

I do not recall that being said.  All I heard was that Blackfish gathered what was left of House Tully and retook Riverrun.  Winterfell is still in the hands of Ramsay Bolton. The Knights of the Vale are marching North - but we cannot be sure of where Littlefinger is sending them to do battle.

I would not be surprised that he sends the Knights of the Vale to attack Blackfish in the hopes that Sansa is there.

Recall that in season 1, Littlefinger said to the whores from the North that all he wanted to do was *eff* the whole world which was followed by Lord Varys saying Baelish was the most dangerous man in Westeros.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I do not recall that being said.  All I heard was that Blackfish gathered what was left of House Tully and retook Riverrun.

.
You're right -- I was thinking Riverrun but typed Winterfell.  GOT dyslexia, I suppose.  Still, retaking Riverrun is a huge deal.

I would not be surprised that he sends the Knights of the Vale to attack Blackfish in the hopes that Sansa is there.

Well, he told Robert right in front of Bronze Yohn Royce that Sansa was in the North, and Robert said to march north to rescue her, so LF told Royce they were marching to Winterfell.  If LF subsequently changed his mind and ordered an attack on Riverrun instead, I can't see why Royce would do it -- the Arryns and Tullys were close, and that's not what Robert said.  Also, LF specifically said that the Vale knights were already at Moat Cailen, heading north.  He hadn't been rejected by Sansa at that point, so there's no reason to believe he's lying about that, and there would have been no reason to attack Riverrun at all.

I guess my point is that LF said, in two separate places in front of two different groups of people, that they were marching to Winterfell.  I see no reason why they'd change at this point.  I suspect LF will just keep the army going north anyway, figuring that his best chance with Sansa is to pull a Jorah, and stay loyal even after rejection.  Attacking Riverrun doesn't seem to do much for him.  He'd turn Sansa from someone who doesn't like him into an out and out enemy, he'd strain to perhaps the breaking point his authority over the Lords of the Vale, and there's a good chance he couldn't take Riverrun anyway.  The Blackfish is a legendary commander, and Riverrun is a very difficult fortress to besiege.

Also, geographically, It's pretty unlikely that Sansa -- even if she had chosen to make the journey herself -- would be able to get to Riverrun before the besieging Vale Lords anyway.

[INVAR]

Well, if I recall - Baelish did tell Cersei that he would attack Winterfell and that he would not rest until the Lion's banners flew over Winterfell.

I still think LF is fulfilling what he told his whores, to set the whole kingdom against itself and tear it down.

I also think Sansa sending Brienne to Riverrun was a big mistake.  The Men Without Banners are there also - and if the show picks up some of what is in the books, Brienne is going to meet a bad end at the hand of someone you would not expect.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Well, if I recall - Baelish did tell Cersei that he would attack Winterfell and that he would not rest until the Lion's banners flew over Winterfell.

I still think LF is fulfilling what he told his whores, to set the whole kingdom against itself and tear it down.

But didn't he also say the reason he was fomenting chaos was because it gave a chance for others -- namely himself -- to rise?  I think the "chaos" part of his plan is pretty much over, and he's now trying to build a real power base.  Let's say he's on the up and up with Sansa -- at least now.  He's setting up an alliance -- Arryn-Tully-Stark.  I think one of the reasons he pointed out that Jon was only a unlegitimized half-brother is because he wants Sansa to hold Winterfell in her own name.  That gives him Robert in the Vale, Sansa in Winterfell (assuming he can win her back at some level), and the Blackfish at Riverrun, who likely will be besieged at some point by the Freys or Lannisters.  Presumably, the Freys still hold Edmure Tully, though what it going to happen when the Freys find out about Walda will be interesting.

Anyway, I think LF's plan is to use the Vale's forces to tip the scales in favor of both the Tullys and the Starks.  That, coupled with his influence over Robert, might (in his plan) give him the support of three Great Houses.  The Lannisters are discredited because of the bastardy, the Dornish hate the Lannister and likely dislike the Tyrells for supporting the Lannisters, and the Baratheons are virtually gone.  LF may think he is setting himself up to be chosen as the next King.  I'm guessing that's his master plan.

One potential wrinkle -- that has to keep him up late at night -- is if Sansa were to ever spill the beans about him murdering Lysa Arryn.  The whole thing would come crashing down at that point.

I also think Sansa sending Brienne to Riverrun was a big mistake.  The Men Without Banners are there also - and if the show picks up some of what is in the books, Brienne is going to meet a bad end at the hand of someone you would not expect.

Good point.  Not sure ol' Stoneheart will come into play, but the Brotherhood without Banners running into her definitely seems a possibility, and sending her to the Riverlands then becomes a plot device for more conflict.

The show is really picking up.  I think the pacing is much better than last season, but I also think there's been a decline in the quality of dialogue.  They've been able to truncate GRRM's plots, but for the first time, can no longer rely on his prose.


How legit do you think the Umber alliance with Ramsay really is?  Osha and Shaggy are both dead, and Bolton does have Rickon.  But I'm still wondering how loyal the Umbers are.  They were supposedly reknown for their loyalty -- at least in the show -- and the repeated refusal of that Umber to swear an oath to Ramsay is interesting.

I'm guessing that last battle between Ramsay and Jon is going to find Ramsay with far fewer allies than he imagined.

[INVAR]

Presumably, the Freys still hold Edmure Tully, though what it going to happen when the Freys find out about Walda will be interesting.

Find out what about Walda Frey? Last time we saw him was his smirking over the carnage at the Red Wedding.

LF may think he is setting himself up to be chosen as the next King.  I'm guessing that's his master plan.

He has got to know that will never happen, anymore than Tywin Lannister could legitimately claim the throne, even though he ran it from behind the scenes. Baelish has no legitimate claim to the throne, unless he thinks he can subjugate the 7 kingdoms himself and claim himself king - which is not out of the realm of thinking in terms of his plans.   He did set this whole thing in motion by getting Lysa to poison her husband's wine and then write a letter to Caitlyn Stark that blamed the Lannisters for it - thus setting the stage for the war he wanted between the Starks and the Lannisters.  Chaos as you recalled him telling Varys, is a ladder.

One potential wrinkle -- that has to keep him up late at night -- is if Sansa were to ever spill the beans about him murdering Lysa Arryn.  The whole thing would come crashing down at that point.

Doubtful.  Sansa lied for him upon questioning by the Lords of the Vale.  She would be held complicit in his treason if she admitted that.

The show is really picking up.  I think the pacing is much better than last season, but I also think there's been a decline in the quality of dialogue. 

Oh I don't know.  Tyrion's discussion about 'conversations in elegant rooms' was pretty good prose IMO.

How legit do you think the Umber alliance with Ramsay really is?

 

That I do not know.  I'm still trying to figure out why they decided to back Ramsay at all in the first place.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Find out what about Walda Frey? Last time we saw him was his smirking over the carnage at the Red Wedding.

Walda -- the Frey married to Roose that Ramsay murdered.  Not Walter.

He has got to know that will never happen, anymore than Tywin Lannister could legitimately claim the throne, even though he ran it from behind the scenes. Baelish has no legitimate claim to the throne, unless he thinks he can subjugate the 7 kingdoms himself and claim himself king - which is not out of the realm of thinking in terms of his plans.   He did set this whole thing in motion by getting Lysa to poison her husband's wine and then write a letter to Caitlyn Stark that blamed the Lannisters for it - thus setting the stage for the war he wanted between the Starks and the Lannisters.  Chaos as you recalled him telling Varys, is a ladder.

Well...are there really any legitimate claimants in Westeros period?  As I recall from the books, if there is no legitimate heir, then the Great Lords are free to choose a new King.  Didn't Ned even propose that at some point?  I think they could choose whomever they'd want.   LF's plan may be to arrange things so that no member of any Great House will be acceptable to the rest, so he'd be a logical compromise choice.  Nobody is going to want a Lannister in charge, Edmure is goofy, Robert is sickly, and Sansa may be disqualified because she's a girl/and/or doesn't want to leave the North.  Dorne is out of it, there's no Baratheons, so....who?  Maybe Mace Tyrell, but they're also tainted somewhat by their support of the Lannisters, and Mace is a doofus. 

But if you have a crown that is massively in debt, and a very smart guy who is a wizard with money and has been on the Small Council...I think he may see himself as a plausible compromise candidate.  The guy who can "hold things together" without alienating other Houses and who can get the Crown out of debt isn't a bad choice.  And he is now technically the Lord of Harrenhal as well -- which is a major title that might make him a more acceptable contender.  Otherwise...where is his ladder going?  Being on the Small Council wasn't enough for him, and being Lord of Harrenhal isn't enough.  So if he's still scheming, what is left for him other than the Crown?  Sure, it's a tough play, but I think it's the only thing that makes sense as his ultimate goal.

Doubtful.  Sansa lied for him upon questioning by the Lords of the Vale.  She would be held complicit in his treason if she admitted that.

Given the circumstances -- "he told me I was wanted for the death of Joffrey and that you'd turn me over to Cersei Lannister" -- her being merely a witness isn't something I think they'd hold against her.  After all, all the Lords of the Vale were manipulated by him to some extent, and so I think they'd have some pity on a teenage girl who had her family murdered, and who did eventually tell them the truth.  She didn't kill Lysa herself -- she just covered for LF because she was terrified.

After all, what would they do to her if she told them?  She's still Sansa Stark, and I doubt they'd try to punish her and go to war with the Starks.  In any case, she'd certainly get off more lightly than LF would, so if she had the cojones to rat him out, he'd be sunk.  I do think you're right in that "she wouldn't dare tell" is what LF is telling himself, but I also think he knows it isn't a certainty.

Oh I don't know.  Tyrion's discussion about 'conversations in elegant rooms' was pretty good prose IMO.

That was pretty good.

That I do not know.  I'm still trying to figure out why they decided to back Ramsay at all in the first place.

It makes sense for the Karstarks - they're complicit in the murder of Robb and other Northern Lords, so they're kind of stuck with the Boltons.  The Umber explanation was that Jon was a traitor who let the wildings in, so they need help to defeat the wildings and put in a better Lord Commander.  Just not sure I buy it.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Watch the last episode carefully.

Especially the segment immidately before Sansa and Littlefinger meet, then listen to every word of their conversation.

My guess?

Sansa is carrying Ramsay Bolton's baby.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Watch the last episode carefully.

Especially the segment immidately before Sansa and Littlefinger meet, then listen to every word of their conversation.

My guess?

Sansa is carrying Ramsay Bolton's baby.

That's an extremely interesting theory. @Luis Gonzalez

To play devil's advocate, that would be such a massive game-changer on a bunch of levels that it seems unlikely Sansa would raise it in such an ambiguous manner.  If there's good reason to reveal it, reveal it.  If not, don't.  And why risk revealing a fact that to Littlefinger, who may well try to use it to his advantage, but conceal it from Jon and everyone else?

I really like the idea, though.  If true, it should become apparent before too much longer.  Though with the timeline liberties they take, who knows....

[Luis Gonzalez]

That's an extremely interesting theory. @Luis Gonzalez

To play devil's advocate, that would be such a massive game-changer on a bunch of levels that it seems unlikely Sansa would raise it in such an ambiguous manner.  If there's good reason to reveal it, reveal it.  If not, don't.  And why risk revealing a fact that to Littlefinger, who may well try to use it to his advantage, but conceal it from Jon and everyone else?

I really like the idea, though.  If true, it should become apparent before too much longer.  Though with the timeline liberties they take, who knows....

Right before Sansa was told that her uncle was there, she was having trouble with the food. Most people would think that the Night watch's cuisine was unacceptable for royalty.

Then was she confronts Littlefinger with all the horrors that Ramsay put her through, from the rape to those things ladies don't speak of, she tells him that she can still feel the effects of her wedding night.

Here's the quote:

“I can still feel it. I don’t mean ‘in my tender heart it still pains me so’. I can still feel what he did in my body standing here right now.” 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Right before Sansa was told that her uncle was there, she was having trouble with the food. Most people would think that the Night watch's cuisine was unacceptable for royalty.

Then was she confronts Littlefinger with all the horrors that Ramsay put her through, from the rape to those things ladies don't speak of, she tells him that she can still feel the effects of her wedding night.

Here's the quote:

“I can still feel it. I don’t mean ‘in my tender heart it still pains me so’. I can still feel what he did in my body standing here right now.” 

In the books, Jeyne Poole -- whose position Sansa took in the show -- was severely beaten and whipped, and had scars all over her back.  And you normally don't feel that you're pregnant immediately.

That being said, I think there's a good chance you're right.  There's a parallel between Ned raising Jon -- and suffering for it -- and Sansa raising a child fathered by Ramsay.   And her being pregnant and recognizing first hand what it means to be invested in an unplanned/unwanted child may explain why she seems to have a stronger bond with Jon now.  It would be an interesting twist.

[Machiavelli]

@Maj. Bill Martin

Game of Thrones Producers Apologize for Hodor

Jimmy Kimmel Live
YouTube
May 25, 2016

The most recent episode of “Game of Thrones” was particularly upsetting for fans of the show. Even now people are still talking about the shocking turn of events at the end of the show - and producers DB Weiss and David Benioff took the extraordinary step of apologizing to their fans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xpG74e_-94

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xpG74e_-94

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Maj. Bill Martin

Game of Thrones Producers Apologize for Hodor

Jimmy Kimmel Live
YouTube
May 25, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xpG74e_-94

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xpG74e_-94

That's hilarious because it is so true.  Had that happen multiple times to me this week.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Thing are really happening fast.  Arya's two-season (boring) storyline in Braavos finally is coming to a climax.  We now know -- as many suspected -- that Benjen was Coldhands.  Then there is what seems to me to be Margaery's power play in KL.  By siding with the High Sparrow, she has carved out a power base independent of both her own family and the Lannisters, and gained a great measure of control over Tommen.  I imagine we'll be seeing the Clegane Bowl in a few episodes.

And, it looks like the whole Jaime/Brienne/Riverrrun storyline is going to come together.  As weird as it sounds, they might actually bring Lady Stoneheart into it, which I thought was something they'd scrapped.  I have no idea if it's going to be resolved the same as the book, though.

Fun as hell to be watching this, and having no clue how things are going to be resolved.

[INVAR]

And, it looks like the whole Jaime/Brienne/Riverrrun storyline is going to come together.  As weird as it sounds, they might actually bring Lady Stoneheart into it, which I thought was something they'd scrapped.  I have no idea if it's going to be resolved the same as the book, though.

Not so well for Brienne if they follow the books according to the fan base.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Not so well for Brienne if they follow the books according to the fan base.

But they can't follow the books because Brienne actually did her job with respect to Sansa, and rescued her.  That didn't happen in the books before she had a run-in with the BwB.  I suppose it could morph to "save Arya", but that seems a bit of a stretch.  Certainly, it doesn't seem like the BwB/LS will be as upset with her as they were in the books.

It's really interesting because Jaime at Riverrrun is happening much later than it did in the books.  I'm not at all sure he's going to align himself against the Tullys at this point.  And it looks like he'll at least run into Brienne there, who will tell him about everything that's happening in the North.  The other angle is that he's now been freed from his vows as Lord Commander, and is in fact the Lord of Casterly Rock at this point.  So who the hell knows what that means?

From what I've heard, there's this season, and then 13 episodes next seasons.  So reviving a whole storyline of Riverrun surrendering to the Lannisters at this late point seems like it would be a sideshow.

Also, really curious about the Mountain, and what's going to happen in that duel.  If the Mountain wins, I think it will go berserk.  Perhaps even to the point of killing Tommen.

[INVAR]

But they can't follow the books because Brienne actually did her job with respect to Sansa, and rescued her.  That didn't happen in the books before she had a run-in with the BwB.  I suppose it could morph to "save Arya", but that seems a bit of a stretch.  Certainly, it doesn't seem like the BwB/LS will be as upset with her as they were in the books.

Since the show is 'based' on the books, and the Men Without Banners are IN Riverrun - I would not be surprised to see Lady Stoneheart there and/or have Brienne's fate meted out in similar manner by someone else assuming the punishment Lady Stoneheart delivers.  Especially given the joyful glee that takes place in this series with so many main characters  meeting bad ends.

It's really interesting because Jaime at Riverrrun is happening much later than it did in the books.  I'm not at all sure he's going to align himself against the Tullys at this point.  And it looks like he'll at least run into Brienne there, who will tell him about everything that's happening in the North. 

I do not think he is the same man that existed when he last saw Brienne.  He is hell-bent now on revenge himself and is closer to his sister's motivations than his own past careless arrogance.  Maybe Jaime is the one to use Oathkeeper and exact punishment on Brienne?  That too would not surprise me. 

Also, really curious about the Mountain, and what's going to happen in that duel.  If the Mountain wins, I think it will go berserk.  Perhaps even to the point of killing Tommen.

Well, given what that witch told Cersei when she was a teen, all three of her kids would be crowned with gold, and gold would be their shrouds.  AND, it was Cersei's actions themselves - that ultimately caused the death of her first two, and it would fit the pattern that the Mountain zombie, when she unleashes it - ends up ending Tommen as well. In fact if you look back on the show - the flash point to the entire unravelling of what existed when the show began and the thing that sets off all the events we have seen (excepting Daenerys) is Cersie and Jaime.  The thing he does for "love" - sets off the chain reaction of everything that followed.  So I think those two will ultimately be responsible for their own demise.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Since the show is 'based' on the books, and the Men Without Banners are IN Riverrun - I would not be surprised to see Lady Stoneheart there and/or have Brienne's fate meted out in similar manner by someone else assuming the punishment Lady Stoneheart delivers.  Especially given the joyful glee that takes place in this series with so many main characters  meeting bad ends.

Right -- it may certainly happen that way.  But LS was pissed at Brienne for what happened to her daughters, and viewed Brienne as something of an oathbreaker/traitor for that.  But now, Brienne actually has saved Sansa.  So why would anyone come after her?  Heck, she's on orders from Sansa -- that should make her pretty popular down there.  She's just in a much, much different place than she was when she was captured by the BwB in the books.

I do not think he is the same man that existed when he last saw Brienne.  He is hell-bent now on revenge himself and is closer to his sister's motivations than his own past careless arrogance.  Maybe Jaime is the one to use Oathkeeper and exact punishment on Brienne?  That too would not surprise me.

For what would Jaime be punishing Brienne?  He gave her Oathkeeper to find and protect Sansa Stark -- that's exactly what she did with it, which didn't happen in the books.  At least, not yet.  The only thing I could think of here is that if LS exists, and if Brienne is captured, then LS may order her to find Arya.  But I can't see the hostility towards Brienne given what she's managed to do with Sansa, and the fact that she is already acting under Sansa's orders in coming to Riverrun.  That would be ordering Brienne to disobey Sansa.

I wonder, though, what would happen if the BwB captured Jaime.  Would LS order him killed?  Would she say that his duty lies North to protect Sansa, or that he should find Arya?  That would take him out of the seeming dead end of a pointless battle over Riverrun.

Well, given what that witch told Cersei when she was a teen, all three of her kids would be crowned with gold, and gold would be their shrouds.  AND, it was Cersei's actions themselves - that ultimately caused the death of her first two, and it would fit the pattern that the Mountain zombie, when she unleashes it - ends up ending Tommen as well. In fact if you look back on the show - the flash point to the entire unravelling of what existed when the show began and the thing that sets off all the events we have seen (excepting Daenerys) is Cersie and Jaime.  The thing he does for "love" - sets off the chain reaction of everything that followed.  So I think those two will ultimately be responsible for their own demise.

Yeah, I agree.  I think a Mountain rampage would fit everything pretty well.  Only quibble is that I expect Sandor to actually win that fight....

[INVAR]

Right -- it may certainly happen that way.  But LS was pissed at Brienne for what happened to her daughters, and viewed Brienne as something of an oathbreaker/traitor for that.  But now, Brienne actually has saved Sansa.  So why would anyone come after her?  Heck, she's on orders from Sansa -- that should make her pretty popular down there.  She's just in a much, much different place than she was when she was captured by the BwB in the books.

Let's just say that I expect DB and Benni to keep the "death scene" as it is in the books - even if they engineer someone else to do it, and the single word shouted at that event while leaving us in the dark about her fate for a few episodes.  What about Ramsay at Winterfell?  Certainly he could capture her passing on through and set up that sequence without anyone raising an eyebrow.

For what would Jaime be punishing Brienne? 

Vengeance for Joffrey.  He still has no idea who was responsible for that, and she was implicated and disappeared when it happened. He's in revenge mode given his words to Cersei this episode.  Who knows how the loss of his daughter and now the stealing of Tommen from him is going to affect his judgment going forward?

Just speculation at this point on everything.  It's all we have until this series concludes.

And it's fun to see how close or how far away from the mark we are.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

No kidding.  I think I was arguing about this stuff back on a message board in '97....

[kevindavis007]

And it's fun to see how close or how far away from the mark we are.

I think we are 2 or 3 season towards the end.

[INVAR]

I think we are 2 or 3 season towards the end.

I had read that they plan on only 2 more seasons which will be stretched out over 3.

10 episodes next year, then 5 will be aired in 2018 and 5 to conclude the series in 2019.

I imagine the last 6 hours will be like a giant Hollywood blockbuster's final climactic act where everything comes down to the "war to come".

[Chieftain]

Ian McShane AND The Hound!!

 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

It was a bit slower of an episode, but still really good.  The Hound was an inevitability, I think.

But the King's Landing stuff actually got interesting.  Margaery confirmed suspicions that she is playing the High Septon -- and playing him very well, I think.  Getting the QOT out of town also was a good move, and I really enjoyed seeing QOT putting whiny, woe is me Cersei in her place.

Though it is starting to look that way, I hope Jon and Sansa don't neglect to go after the Manderlys.  Wyman Manderly was a great character, and that whole "the North Remembers" theme was pretty powerful.  Although right now, it doesn't look like the North remembers very much at all.  The always-loyal Glovers turned tail, and the Umbers (apparently) have betrayed the Starks as well.

The Arya scenes are going to be a disappointment either way.  The way the waif dug that knife into Arya repeatedly is just something she shouldn't be able to survive, so if she does, it is really going to strain credulity.  And if she does die, than that entire storyline in Braavos was a complete waste.

Riverrun could be interesting.  It looks like Brienne will tell the Blackfish that she rescued Sansa after Jaime gave her his sword, so there's at least an argument that he fulfilled part of the oath.  I suppose what might happen is that the Blackfish may be permitted by Jaime to take whatever loyalists exist, and head North to join Sansa.  Jaime might permit that, and it would be an interesting twist. Also, it seems that Jaime would have to promise Brienne something if she helps him, and given that her mission is to get help for Sansa.

Also like Theon and Asha trying to beat Euron to Danaerys.  I don't think Danaerys is going to be fond of the ironborn either way, but an alliance with Asha/Theon seems more credible than one with Euron.

[INVAR]

The Arya scenes are going to be a disappointment either way.  The way the waif dug that knife into Arya repeatedly is just something she shouldn't be able to survive, so if she does, it is really going to strain credulity.  And if she does die, than that entire storyline in Braavos was a complete waste.

Well Jaqen drank poison and died in front of Arya and ended up right in front of her shortly thereafter.  So there's something the Faceless men can do to cheat death it seems.  Perhaps that is something that comes into play for Arya somehow.  Maybe even Jaqen rescues her.  It was her compassion and sense of justice that appealed to Jaqen in the first place when he was stuck in that wagon cell.  Perhaps the fact that Arya was questioning the morality of killing people because a price was paid by someone causes some reflection.  Or, maybe this was just yet another test by Jaqen.

Up until the last assignment Jaqen gave Arya - the impression I got from Jaqen was that he seemed guided by the notion that there was a difference between justice and revenge. Something I assumed he was teaching Arya.  Dispensing death as a gift outside of the natural cause was a service the Faceless men provide.  That they will kill to whomever pays them a price is a revelation that changed my perception of what they were.

[flowers]

I love GOT. Haven't been able to watch this year though...will read this area for sure....  @flowers

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Well Jaqen drank poison and died in front of Arya and ended up right in front of her shortly thereafter.  So there's something the Faceless men can do to cheat death it seems.  Perhaps that is something that comes into play for Arya somehow.  Maybe even Jaqen rescues her.  It was her compassion and sense of justice that appealed to Jaqen in the first place when he was stuck in that wagon cell.  Perhaps the fact that Arya was questioning the morality of killing people because a price was paid by someone causes some reflection.  Or, maybe this was just yet another test by Jaqen.

I think it was a test, and that she "failed".  But I don't think the price for such failure is necessarily death.  Perhaps Jaqen couldn't deny the waif's right to kill Arya, but if Arya survives, he will help her and then send her on her way.

Still wondering if perhaps his affection for her is based on more than just that one chance encounter where she helped him escaped.  So maybe...is it still possible that he's Syrio Forel, her old fencing instructor, who was actually on a mission to kill someone in KL before all hell broke loose?  If so, that whole understanding he seemed to have about who she was when she was trying to become a Faceless Man would have a deeper background.  Maybe that's the source of his apparent affection for her?

Up until the last assignment Jaqen gave Arya - the impression I got from Jaqen was that he seemed guided by the notion that there was a difference between justice and revenge. Something I assumed he was teaching Arya.  Dispensing death as a gift outside of the natural cause was a service the Faceless men provide.  That they will kill to whomever pays them a price is a revelation that changed my perception of what they were.

I think the FM do see a difference between justice and revenge.  I just don't think that is determinative as to whether or not they will accept a contract.  We learned pretty early in the books that they will kill anyone if paid enough.  The Many Faced god will judge the person who took out the contract for their motives.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I love GOT. Haven't been able to watch this year though...will read this area for sure....  @flowers

Do you have a pretty good sense of what is going on?  I'll be happy to fill you in if you don't.

[flowers]

Do you have a pretty good sense of what is going on?  I'll be happy to fill you in if you don't.

Yes I have watched every season up till this one. I watched the first episode on HBO earlier this year.  I have read bits and pieces of what is going on this season. I think I found a site that tells all that has happened in each episode for this season, just haven't had the time to read them yet. Would love info for questions I have. Thanks  @Maj. Bill Martin

[chae]

I found a video, a bunch of scenes taken out of context that "proves" Ramsey Bolton is the kindest man in Westeros.

[Chieftain]

I found a video, a bunch of scenes taken out of context that "proves" Ramsey Bolton is the kindest man in Westeros.

Ramsey Bolton is the most despised sadist on the planet at the moment...let's hope he doesn't endorse Trump....

A couple of points....

*  Just who is this Ice King??  Did the Kingslayer really slay the Mad King??  Did they burn Aerys Targaryen after he was killed??

** Speaking of the icy dead....do you suppose Caitlyn Stark is out there someplace still??  After the Red Wedding they tossed her dead body into the river and it was never seen again...

*** Who ever thought that the Hound could be a hero??

**** Do you think The Mountain That Rides will survive another season??

***** Interesting that episode six showed the Mad King ordering "burn them all!" with the liquid dragon fire.  The first season underplayed the importance of dragon fire and just where it all came from.  Supposedly by the time of the Mad King, all the dragons had died out, but those three eggs came from someplace and Aerys had gallons of the stuff.  If you look at the scene of the dragon roaring you can see the two tubes, one on each side of the mouth, that the dragon excretes the liquid dragon fire from....

Its too bad this season is only ten episodes as we are well beyond the end of the last book and the next one still has no date.  We'll see where this all goes in the next three episodes...its bound to be epic no matter what!

 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

*  Just who is this Ice King??

You could get arguments forever on that.  It may literally be the 13th Commander of the Night's Watch, who would be thousands of years old.  But it also may be someone of whom we've never heard.

Did the Kingslayer really slay the Mad King??

Yes, absolutely.

Did they burn Aerys Targaryen after he was killed??

I don't believe so.

** Speaking of the icy dead....do you suppose Caitlyn Stark is out there someplace still??  After the Red Wedding they tossed her dead body into the river and it was never seen again...

In the books, she is still out there as a revived, intelligent undead, last seen as sort of the spiritual head of the Brotherhood without Banners.  That whole storyline was supposedly scotched from the show, but there's nothing saying they couldn't revive it given that Sandor seems to be headed that way.  And since he's the last one in Westeros who had any contact with Arya, I suppose it might be possible that UnCatelyn could command him to go find/rescue her.

*** Who ever thought that the Hound could be a hero??

Well, way back in I think 1999, I posted a thread on an old ASOIAF message board about that very issue.  It came about because there were some folks who just had their hearts set in Sansa eventually hooking up with the Hound, and I thought the Hound was an utter scumbag.  But, I started a thread about what it would take for him to find redemption.  And since then, I know there has been a general consensus in the fan community that Sandor eventually would find some form of redemption.  Until maybe 3-4 years ago, you could still find shreds of that old board around, though it went inactive in about 2000 or so when it shifted over to another board, and then kept changing until it morphed into the Westeros board.

By the way, never ever go to that Westeros board and try to discuss politics.  It makes DU look like Reagan.

**** Do you think The Mountain That Rides will survive another season??

Nope, he's a damn goner by the end of this season, but I think he's going to take a lot of people with him.

***** Interesting that episode six showed the Mad King ordering "burn them all!" with the liquid dragon fire.  The first season underplayed the importance of dragon fire and just where it all came from.  Supposedly by the time of the Mad King, all the dragons had died out, but those three eggs came from someplace and Aerys had gallons of the stuff.  If you look at the scene of the dragon roaring you can see the two tubes, one on each side of the mouth, that the dragon excretes the liquid dragon fire from....

Well, if I understand you right, there are actually two different things going on in your post.  The first is that the fire to which Aerys was referring is the same stuff Tyrion used in the battle of the Blackwater against Stannis' fleet, and it is actually a chemical called "wildfire" produced by pyromancer chemists at King's Landing.  Aerys probably calls it "dragonfire" just out of vanity, but it wasn't really from dragons.

[Chieftain]

Thanks Maj. Bill for clearing my memory on Dragon fire...been a while since I broke out the books and the early story line(s) are fading fast...

Still an incredible story line and even if it ends in a couple more seasons, the final battles will make LOTRs look like Romper Room...

Cheers!

 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Thanks Maj. Bill for clearing my memory on Dragon fire...been a while since I broke out the books and the early story line(s) are fading fast...

Still an incredible story line and even if it ends in a couple more seasons, the final battles will make LOTRs look like Romper Room...

Cheers!

 

Yeah, it's a great story.  I really hope old George finishes up the books someday, but I have my doubts.

[TheMom]

The Arya scenes are going to be a disappointment either way.  The way the waif dug that knife into Arya repeatedly is just something she shouldn't be able to survive, so if she does, it is really going to strain credulity.  And if she does die, than that entire storyline in Braavos was a complete waste.

My thoughts on this is it wasn't Arya, but Jaqen testing the waif.  Arya knew her life was in danger and would not have been so bold and unaware of her surroundings, plus she didn't have Needle with her.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

My thoughts on this is it wasn't Arya, but Jaqen testing the waif.  Arya knew her life was in danger and would not have been so bold and unaware of her surroundings, plus she didn't have Needle with her.

You may be right about that.  And the way that "Arya" was stumbling around after being stabbed almost made it look like she wanted to be seen by as many people as possible.  That's...intriguing.

[TheMom]

My thoughts on this is it wasn't Arya, but Jaqen testing the waif.  Arya knew her life was in danger and would not have been so bold and unaware of her surroundings, plus she didn't have Needle with her.

They just blew my theory right out of the water.

[Chieftain]

"Spit it out! Ya wee $hit!!...Spit it out!!!"

 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

They just blew my theory right out of the water.

Yeah, they went with the disappointing "repeated stabs/knife twists to the gut overcome in a couple of days" route.

Arya's entire storyline in Essos now looks to have been a complete waste, as was the whole Blackfish revival.  The only possible point to the latter is if Brienne and Pod meet up with Sandor and the Brotherhood heading North, because they will have needed an excuse for Brienne to go south.

Big surprise with Tommen outlawing trial by combat.  Cersei would appeared to be completely screwed now except for Jaime's apparent desire to get back to KL and Cersei as quickly as possible. 

Holy Schniekes, just had a thought....

There's speculation out there that the secret Cersei was discussing with Qyburn has to do with the wildfire hidden under the city, and that perhaps Cersei will burn the city (or at least Baelor's Sept) down rather than submit to a trial.  So suppose Jaime comes back to "rescue" her, finds out what her plan in, and has to kill her to prevent her from doing what Aerys' tried to do?   That would be the "valonquar" prophecy coming true, because it would mean Cersei is strangled by her younger brother.   And right after giving that "I love my sister more than anything" speech to Edmure....

[Chieftain]

Yeah, they went with the disappointing "repeated stabs/knife twists to the gut overcome in a couple of days" route.

Arya's entire storyline in Essos now looks to have been a complete waste, as was the whole Blackfish revival.  The only possible point to the latter is if Brienne and Pod meet up with Sandor and the Brotherhood heading North, because they will have needed an excuse for Brienne to go south.

Big surprise with Tommen outlawing trial by combat.  Cersei would appeared to be completely screwed now except for Jaime's apparent desire to get back to KL and Cersei as quickly as possible. 

Holy Schniekes, just had a thought....

There's speculation out there that the secret Cersei was discussing with Qyburn has to do with the wildfire hidden under the city, and that perhaps Cersei will burn the city (or at least Baelor's Sept) down rather than submit to a trial.  So suppose Jaime comes back to "rescue" her, finds out what her plan in, and has to kill her to prevent her from doing what Aerys' tried to do?   That would be the "valonquar" prophecy coming true, because it would mean Cersei is strangled by her younger brother.   And right after giving that "I love my sister more than anything" speech to Edmure....

And that means it is Jamie who fights the Mountain to the death...

Gonna be good....

 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

And that means it is Jamie who fights the Mountain to the death...

Gonna be good....

 

Well, if that's the fight that happens, it's going to be Jaime's death, because there's no way that a one-handed Jaime with an ordinary sword has a hope in hell against the Mountain.  But to have the season end with him strangling his sister...that would be just amazing.

The thing that is so cool about the Jaime/wildfire/Cersei possibility is that whole conversation with Edmure. Edmure told him that every man must think he is decent at some level, and Jaime eventually comes up with loving Cersei.

 But the truth is that his greatest moment was killing Aerys because he was going to burn down the city, which he has chosen to keep a secret and therefore wouldn't reveal to Edmure. But I think that's the great, noble deed that lets him sleep at night.

 So for Cersei to do the exact same thing Aerys tried to do would render Jaime's entire life pointless -- destroying his greatest sacrifice and greatest good deed. It would be freaking perfect, and the ultimate mind-bleep for Jaime.

[Chieftain]

Losing his hand was nowhere near the justice Jamie Lannister is due.  Perhaps the Hound might get the chance to take his revenge on his big brother...it was the Mountain that held Sandor's head in burning charcoal that left him looking like he does.  There was a quote in the books about the fate of the Clegane brothers....to the effect, "It is good that the Gods gave us seven hells, because one was surely not big enough for both of them...".

I'm still convinced we will eventually see an icy Caitlyn Stark, and and Ice King is the perfect yang to the ying of the last fire-mad Targaryan King....