Author Topic: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen  (Read 28979 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #250 on: November 30, 2017, 12:31:33 am »
Dear God man. Did you just light the candle on this worthless thread after 2 years?

Was it an accident or are you loaded on scotch?

Worthless to whom exactly?  I  surely don't access it that way!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #251 on: November 30, 2017, 12:32:01 am »

I guess you missed the fact that I did it.   



Dear God man. Did you just light the candle on this worthless thread after 2 years?

Was it an accident or are you loaded on Ripple?

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #252 on: November 30, 2017, 12:34:30 am »
Dear God man. Did you just light the candle on this worthless thread after 2 years?

Was it an accident or are you loaded on Ripple?



D@mn it!   I tried to get my Rodney Dangerfield image back into my message before you quoted me,  which I figured you was gonna do.   


For some reason,  this website screws up images when I actually post them,  and I have to go back and  correct them after the fact.   


Anyway,   could you modify your message to include this picture? 



Edit 2. 
D@mn it!  It did it again!   GRRRRRRRRR....
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 12:35:33 am by DiogenesLamp »
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Offline WingNot

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #253 on: November 30, 2017, 12:39:02 am »
"I'm a man, but I changed, because I had to. Oh well."

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #254 on: November 30, 2017, 12:52:30 am »


Well since we are going back to the good old days, I guess I'll dust off this moldy oldie....


Offline libertybele

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #255 on: November 30, 2017, 12:54:38 am »

I guess you missed the fact that I did it.   



Why?
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Emjay

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #256 on: November 30, 2017, 02:12:50 am »
I'm afraid so! 

Ted Cruz is much more a citizen than Obama is!  That's for sure!

Amen to that.  There is another thread here about Obama's fake citizenship.  It's quite interesting.
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Offline Taxcontrol

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #257 on: November 30, 2017, 03:50:50 pm »
Looking a little further into this, it appears that the anti Cruz people are hanging their hat on the fact that only one parent, Cruz's mom, held dual Canadian and U.S. citizenship when Ted Cruz was born. Cruz's dad had only a U.S. green card, which has some stipulations for it to remain valid, when he applied for Canadian citizenship.

The other historical examples, George Romney and John McCain, had two American citizen parents at the time of their birth. Some folks are saying that's the difference here.

Allow me to present a logic flow.

The supreme authority in the United State is the People who, via the Constitution have defined the rules of governance.  As such, the Constitution is the highest legal authority and delegates the authority of governance in very specific manner.  Some authority is given to the courts, others to the legislature, and others still, to the executive (President).

The Constitution requires that the President be a "Natural born citizen", however, the Constitution does not detail what qualifies as an NBC.

The Constitution does however, vest ALL authority over "the rules of naturalization" with Congress, via Article I, section 8.  This authority is exclusive (no authority given to the Courts or to the Executive branch) to Congress AND IS WITHOUT RESTRICTION.

Thus, it is up to Congress to establish the definition of who needs to be naturalized and who does not.  Naturalization is an act that only occurs after birth.  If a person is born a citizen (citizen at birth) they are naturally born a citizen.  One of the first Acts of Congress addresses the fact that children born abroad or over the sea, are citizens at birth and are to be the same as natural born citizens.  That act has been repealed and replaced several times.

The current will of Congress regarding who is born a citizen of the United States is expressed in USC title 8 section 1401 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1401.  Under subsection G:

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

...Sen Cruz was born a US citizen and qualified as such via his mother.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #258 on: November 30, 2017, 03:54:16 pm »
Allow me to present a logic flow.

The supreme authority in the United State is the People who, via the Constitution have defined the rules of governance.  As such, the Constitution is the highest legal authority and delegates the authority of governance in very specific manner.  Some authority is given to the courts, others to the legislature, and others still, to the executive (President).

The Constitution requires that the President be a "Natural born citizen", however, the Constitution does not detail what qualifies as an NBC.

The Constitution does however, vest ALL authority over "the rules of naturalization" with Congress, via Article I, section 8.  This authority is exclusive (no authority given to the Courts or to the Executive branch) to Congress AND IS WITHOUT RESTRICTION.

Thus, it is up to Congress to establish the definition of who needs to be naturalized and who does not.  Naturalization is an act that only occurs after birth.  If a person is born a citizen (citizen at birth) they are naturally born a citizen.  One of the first Acts of Congress addresses the fact that children born abroad or over the sea, are citizens at birth and are to be the same as natural born citizens.  That act has been repealed and replaced several times.

The current will of Congress regarding who is born a citizen of the United States is expressed in USC title 8 section 1401 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1401.  Under subsection G:

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

...Sen Cruz was born a US citizen and qualified as such via his mother.

Good analysis.  I'm curious to see what other posters will say.

Offline Night Hides Not

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #259 on: November 30, 2017, 04:14:42 pm »
Good analysis.  I'm curious to see what other posters will say.

Great...can't wait to hear about the relationship between Ted's dad and Oswald.
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Offline jpsb

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #260 on: November 30, 2017, 04:25:33 pm »
Good analysis.  I'm curious to see what other posters will say.

Prior to the Naturalization Act of 1936 Ted Cruz would not be a citizen of the United
States. If an act of Congress makes you a citizen you are by definition a naturalized
citizen.

When Cruz was born if his parents wanted Cruz to be a US citizen they had to file for
a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA). A CRBA is the equivalent of a US birth
certificate. Sans a CRBA Cruz is not even a US citizen. Cruz has never produced his
CRBA. Technically Cruz is an illegal alien.

There is good reasons to believe both parents were in fact Canadian citizens when Cruz
was born making Cruz a natural born citizen (NBC) of Canada.

It is ridiculous to argue (under original intent) that the son of a Cuban born in Canada
is a natural born citizen of the United States.

Natural born citizens are citizens (at birth) of only one nation. Ted Cruz is not a NBC and
he knows it. The NBC issue exposes Cruz, who claims to be a Constitution originalest, to
be a big phony.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #261 on: November 30, 2017, 04:27:37 pm »
Prior to the Naturalization Act of 1936 Ted Cruz would not be a citizen of the United
States. If an act of Congress makes you a citizen you are by definition a naturalized
citizen.

When Cruz was born if his parents wanted Cruz to be a US citizen they had to file for
a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA). A CRBA is the equivalent of a US birth
certificate. Sans a CRBA Cruz is not even a US citizen. Cruz has never produced his
CRBA. Technically Cruz is an illegal alien.

There is good reasons to believe both parents were in fact Canadian citizens when Cruz
was born making Cruz a natural born citizen (NBC) of Canada.

It is ridiculous to argue (under original intent) that the son of a Cuban born in Canada
is a natural born citizen of the United States.

Natural born citizens are citizens (at birth) of only one nation. Ted Cruz is not a NBC and
he knows it. The NBC issue exposes Cruz, who claims to be a Constitution originalest, to
be a big phony.

@Sanguine and right on cue....the birthers start arriving
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #262 on: November 30, 2017, 04:30:06 pm »
@Sanguine and right on cue....the birthers start arriving

They're alt right neonazi trash.

Offline jpsb

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #263 on: November 30, 2017, 04:33:41 pm »
@Sanguine and right on cue....the birthers start arriving

Wow, what a great argument. I am impressed /s

Offline jpsb

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #264 on: November 30, 2017, 04:37:22 pm »

...Sen Cruz was born a US citizen and qualified as such via his mother.

Where is his Consular Report of Birth Abroad? Mind you that would only make him a US
citizen NOT a natural born citizen. And citizen at birth does not mean natural born citizen.

Offline Emjay

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #265 on: November 30, 2017, 04:51:51 pm »
Great...can't wait to hear about the relationship between Ted's dad and Oswald.

I cannot believe I didn't get away from this discussion when I escaped from TOS.

And yet, and yet, it's followed me here.

Ann Coulter cannot give up her faded attempt to become relevant again.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #266 on: November 30, 2017, 04:56:40 pm »
I cannot believe I didn't get away from this discussion when I escaped from TOS.

And yet, and yet, it's followed me here.

Ann Coulter cannot give up her faded attempt to become relevant again.

You do realize this article is from January 2016.  Yes?

@Emjay

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #267 on: November 30, 2017, 05:17:56 pm »
Allow me to present a logic flow.

The supreme authority in the United State is the People who, via the Constitution have defined the rules of governance.  As such, the Constitution is the highest legal authority and delegates the authority of governance in very specific manner.  Some authority is given to the courts, others to the legislature, and others still, to the executive (President).

The Constitution requires that the President be a "Natural born citizen", however, the Constitution does not detail what qualifies as an NBC.

The Constitution does however, vest ALL authority over "the rules of naturalization" with Congress, via Article I, section 8.  This authority is exclusive (no authority given to the Courts or to the Executive branch) to Congress AND IS WITHOUT RESTRICTION.

Thus, it is up to Congress to establish the definition of who needs to be naturalized and who does not.  Naturalization is an act that only occurs after birth.


Your facts and logic were impeccable up till this point.   Then you made an incorrect assumption.  Several of the naturalization statues dealing with foreign birth to American women (starting with the "Cable Act of 1922) says "at the time of the birth".   

The 1952 act (which would be the one that applies to Ted Cruz and Barack Obama) says "Nationality at birth and by collective naturalization."

 
But this demands the question.   "How does citizenship through the effect of a naturalization statute make you a "natural born citizen" ?    It says "naturalization"  right on the statute.   


Natural citizens do not need a statute to make them into a citizen.   They are inherently a citizen.   


If a person is born a citizen (citizen at birth) they are naturally born a citizen. 


Not if they are naturalized at birth because an act of congress specifies that they shall be naturalized at birth. 


Prior to 1922,  all children born to American women in foreign lands were non citizens.   Congress used it's power of naturalization to make them citizens at birth.    


But let me just save all of us a lot of time.   I can point out the hair splitting technicalities between "natural"  and "naturalized",   and you can disagree and claim they are the same,   so how about we let the most landmark Supreme Court decision on the issue speak for itself?   



That decision is "United States vs Wong Kim Ark". 


Quote

The Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in the declaration that

all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside,

contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two only: birth and naturalization. Citizenship by naturalization can only be acquired by naturalization under the authority and in the forms of law. But citizenship by birth is established by the mere fact of birth under the circumstances defined in the Constitution. Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization. A person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States can only become a citizen by being naturalized, either by treaty, as in the case of the annexation of foreign territory, or by authority of Congress, exercised either by declaring certain classes of persons to be citizens, as in the enactments conferring citizenship upon foreign-born children of citizens, or by enabling foreigners individually to become citizens by proceedings in the judicial tribunals, as in the ordinary provisions of the naturalization acts.



The supreme court has spoken on this issue,  and they have spoken clearly.   Foreign born citizens are "naturalized"  citizens.   


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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #268 on: November 30, 2017, 05:22:44 pm »
@Sanguine and right on cue....the birthers start arriving


Thank you for that brilliant insight into this discussion on American citizenship law.   We look forward to your future contributions on the topic and we expect they will meet and possibly exceed your currently displayed mastery of the material.   


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #269 on: November 30, 2017, 05:26:39 pm »
Prior to the Naturalization Act of 1936 Ted Cruz would not be a citizen of the United
States. If an act of Congress makes you a citizen you are by definition a naturalized
citizen.

When Cruz was born if his parents wanted Cruz to be a US citizen they had to file for
a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA). A CRBA is the equivalent of a US birth
certificate. Sans a CRBA Cruz is not even a US citizen. Cruz has never produced his
CRBA. Technically Cruz is an illegal alien.

There is good reasons to believe both parents were in fact Canadian citizens when Cruz
was born making Cruz a natural born citizen (NBC) of Canada.

It is ridiculous to argue (under original intent) that the son of a Cuban born in Canada
is a natural born citizen of the United States.

Natural born citizens are citizens (at birth) of only one nation. Ted Cruz is not a NBC and
he knows it. The NBC issue exposes Cruz, who claims to be a Constitution originalest, to
be a big phony.

Eleanor Darragh, mother of Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX), was born in Delaware on Nov. 23, 1934, establishing her citizenship by birth–and, according to U.S. law, that of her son, even though he was born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, on Dec. 22, 1970.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 05:27:15 pm by libertybele »
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #270 on: November 30, 2017, 05:42:34 pm »

Your facts and logic were impeccable up till this point.   Then you made an incorrect assumption.  Several of the naturalization statues dealing with foreign birth to American women (starting with the "Cable Act of 1922) says "at the time of the birth".   

The 1952 act (which would be the one that applies to Ted Cruz and Barack Obama) says "Nationality at birth and by collective naturalization."

 
But this demands the question.   "How does citizenship through the effect of a naturalization statute make you a "natural born citizen" ?    It says "naturalization"  right on the statute.   


Natural citizens do not need a statute to make them into a citizen.   They are inherently a citizen.   



Not if they are naturalized at birth because an act of congress specifies that they shall be naturalized at birth. 


Prior to 1922,  all children born to American women in foreign lands were non citizens.   Congress used it's power of naturalization to make them citizens at birth.    


But let me just save all of us a lot of time.   I can point out the hair splitting technicalities between "natural"  and "naturalized",   and you can disagree and claim they are the same,   so how about we let the most landmark Supreme Court decision on the issue speak for itself?   



That decision is "United States vs Wong Kim Ark". 




The supreme court has spoken on this issue,  and they have spoken clearly.   Foreign born citizens are "naturalized"  citizens.

@DiogenesLamp
Its dangerous for a lay person to pull out laws and say this is what the law says.  There are numerous cases and laws to consider.  Currently the law is:

According to legal experts that I've read.
1.  If you are born in the US you are a NBC
2.  If one parent is a US Citizen over 18 yrs old then you are a NBC if they register the birth with the US.
3.  If you were born outside the US and a citizen of another country but moved here and became a citizen then  you are a naturalized citizen.
4.  If you had to go to a court to get your citizenship then you are a naturalized citizen.

McLame was born in Panama, is he a NBC?
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #271 on: November 30, 2017, 05:56:17 pm »
Prior to the Naturalization Act of 1936 Ted Cruz would not be a citizen of the United
States. If an act of Congress makes you a citizen you are by definition a naturalized
citizen.

When Cruz was born if his parents wanted Cruz to be a US citizen they had to file for
a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA). A CRBA is the equivalent of a US birth
certificate. Sans a CRBA Cruz is not even a US citizen. Cruz has never produced his
CRBA. Technically Cruz is an illegal alien.

There is good reasons to believe both parents were in fact Canadian citizens when Cruz
was born making Cruz a natural born citizen (NBC) of Canada.

It is ridiculous to argue (under original intent) that the son of a Cuban born in Canada
is a natural born citizen of the United States.

Natural born citizens are citizens (at birth) of only one nation. Ted Cruz is not a NBC and
he knows it. The NBC issue exposes Cruz, who claims to be a Constitution originalest, to
be a big phony.

Nobody's arguing that the son of a Cuban born in Canada is a natural born citizen.  Cruz is the son of an American mother.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #272 on: November 30, 2017, 06:04:51 pm »
@DiogenesLamp
Its dangerous for a lay person to pull out laws and say this is what the law says.  There are numerous cases and laws to consider.  Currently the law is:


It is dangerous to pull out laws and say this is what the law says if you do not know the relevant law and how we acquired it.   I've spent years researching this topic,  and I'm confident that I can chew lawyers up and spit them out on this issue. 





According to legal experts that I've read.
1.  If you are born in the US you are a NBC


This is true.   A lot of legal experts assert this.   They merely repeat what they have been taught as a consequence of 119 years of misinterpreting the decision in Wong Kim Ark.   




2.  If one parent is a US Citizen over 18 yrs old then you are a NBC if they register the birth with the US.



You might want to look at Rogers v Bellei. 
(1971) 

The Supreme Court decided that Bellei lost his US Citizenship because he did not comply with the conditions Congress placed on his citizenship in order to keep it.   

Natural citizens cannot lose their citizenship for failing to act.   The very fact that conditions are placed on someone's citizenship also demonstrates that it is not "natural" citizenship,  but is instead an artificial construction and based on the whims of congress at the time they created the statute granting such citizenship. 




4.  If you had to go to a court to get your citizenship then you are a naturalized citizen.


Only in some cases.  The naturalized children of naturalized aliens do not have to appear in court.  They receive "derivative"  naturalization from their parents.   The children of aliens become naturalized,  but they do not have to go through any process,  nor do they have to appear in court. 






McLame was born in Panama, is he a NBC?


He was not born under the jurisdiction of Panama.  Those reports are incorrect.   He was born at the Coco Solo Naval Base in Panama.   

And yes,  McCain is a natural born citizen. 
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline libertybele

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #273 on: November 30, 2017, 06:09:48 pm »
This issue was brought before the courts in a couple of different states and they ruled that he IS eligible to be on the ballot to run for POTUS.  I highly doubt this issue will ever go before the SCOTUS.  Time to move on.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Coulter: Cruz is not a natural born citizen
« Reply #274 on: November 30, 2017, 06:12:43 pm »

It is dangerous to pull out laws and say this is what the law says if you do not know the relevant law and how we acquired it.   I've spent years researching this topic,  and I'm confident that I can chew lawyers up and spit them out on this issue. 




This is true.   A lot of legal experts assert this.   They merely repeat what they have been taught as a consequence of 119 years of misinterpreting the decision in Wong Kim Ark.   





You might want to look at Rogers v Bellei. 
(1971) 

The Supreme Court decided that Bellei lost his US Citizenship because he did not comply with the conditions Congress placed on his citizenship in order to keep it.   

Natural citizens cannot lose their citizenship for failing to act.   The very fact that conditions are placed on someone's citizenship also demonstrates that it is not "natural" citizenship,  but is instead an artificial construction and based on the whims of congress at the time they created the statute granting such citizenship. 




Only in some cases.  The naturalized children of naturalized aliens do not have to appear in court.  They receive "derivative"  naturalization from their parents.   The children of aliens become naturalized,  but they do not have to go through any process,  nor do they have to appear in court. 






He was not born under the jurisdiction of Panama.  Those reports are incorrect.   He was born at the Coco Solo Naval Base in Panama.   

And yes,  McCain is a natural born citizen.

Again, looking at a single case is a mistake as later cases can change them.   No offense but I've read too many reviews from lawyers who are experts in immigration.

A naval base is not US soil.   Only an embassy is considered US soil.   My son was born overseas and I have a bit of personal experience with this subject.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.