Trump vows to deport all undocumented immigrants and rescind any protections put in place by Obama

[EdinVA]

As was said WAY up thread, the entire argument is STUPID!

I was merely pointing out that Amnesty is NOT the same as a pardon.
Not sure why you would think that is a stupid conversation...

[Bigun]

I was merely pointing out that Amnesty is NOT the same as a pardon.
Not sure why you would think that is a stupid conversation...

I was not referring to anything YOU said. I was referring to the entire argument that this president, or any other for that matter, could pardon 11 million ++ illegals.  It's just plain stupid!

[olde north church]

I was not referring to anything YOU said. I was referring to the entire argument that this president, or any other for that matter, could pardon 11 million ++ illegals.  It's just plain stupid!

This is "Bizzaro America".  Nothing surprises me anymore.

[DCPatriot]

This is "Bizzaro America".  Nothing surprises me anymore.

Amen, ONC!  Amen! 

[Luis Gonzalez]

Nixon was ONE guy, your talking about processing 11 million pardon requests.
Additionally, the way I read it, you can only be pardoned from actual charges which we have not done.
We would have to charge each illegal, then they wait 5 years, then are eligible for pardon.

The process you posted does not differentiate between one guy or 11 million. The point was that the process can be subverted at will.

I don't know that there is a viable solution that will satisfy immigration hawks, but I know we're not deporting 11+ million people. If that legal process is followed, Trump (if elected) won't have enough years in office to do it.

[DCPatriot]

The process you posted does not differentiate between one guy or 11 million. The point was that the process can be subverted at will.

I don't know that there is a viable solution that will satisfy immigration hawks, but I know we're not deporting 11+ million people. If that legal process is followed, Trump (if elected) won't have enough years in office to do it.

Throwing out all 'illegal immigrants' here in Maryland, would literally destroy Maryland's economy.

Entire zip codes would become instant ghost towns....right down to the bramble bush rolling down the street from the wind.

[EdinVA]

The process you posted does not differentiate between one guy or 11 million. The point was that the process can be subverted at will.

I don't know that there is a viable solution that will satisfy immigration hawks, but I know we're not deporting 11+ million people. If that legal process is followed, Trump (if elected) won't have enough years in office to do it.

It has nothing to do with Trump, it is the process, no matter who is in office they will have difficulty processing 11 million pardons as you suggested earlier.
My whole point was that a pardon is not the same as amnesty.

[bkepley]

The process you posted does not differentiate between one guy or 11 million. The point was that the process can be subverted at will.

I don't know that there is a viable solution that will satisfy immigration hawks, but I know we're not deporting 11+ million people. If that legal process is followed, Trump (if elected) won't have enough years in office to do it.

He won't do it.  It's all a bluff to satisfy the gullible.  Same with the great wall of Mexico.

[aligncare]

for your reading pleasure



http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/08/16/byron-york-donald-trumps-immigration-plan-reflects-mainstream-american-viewpoints/

Well, there you have it. Lindsey Graham has confirmed it. There's no difference between Democrats and establishment Republicans – on immigration.

[Luis Gonzalez]

It has nothing to do with Trump, it is the process, no matter who is in office they will have difficulty processing 11 million pardons as you suggested earlier.
My whole point was that a pardon is not the same as amnesty.

Here's the legal definition of "amnesty":

A sovereign act of pardon and oblivion for past acts, granted by a government to all persons (or to certain persons) who have been guilty of crime or delict, generally political offenses,


Law Dictionary: What is AMNESTY? definition of AMNESTY (Black's Law Dictionary)

[EdinVA]

Here's the legal definition of "amnesty":

A sovereign act of pardon and oblivion for past acts, granted by a government to all persons (or to certain persons) who have been guilty of crime or delict, generally political offenses,


Law Dictionary: What is AMNESTY? definition of AMNESTY (Black's Law Dictionary)

What is the difference between and pardon and amnesty? When someone has been prosecuted and convicted of a crime, if they want to remove the conviction, they must seek a pardon. In state court their are exceptions to this rule, like exungements for summary offenses, but in federal court, you must get a pardon to remove a conviction.

Amnesty is where a person or group of people are told that they will not be prosecuted for a particular offense if they comply with terms of the amnesty, or simply admit to their role in the alleged crime. For example, the government can say that on a certain day all citizens who possess illegal firearms can turn firearms in to a police station and they will not be prosecuted. The idea that people are possessing the illegal weapon, but the government agrees not to prosecute, is a form of amnesty.

http://philadelphiacriminaldefense.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-is-difference-between-and-pardon.html

We can play battle lawyers all day but I was not trying to tell you that it cannot be done, only that there is a difference between the two.

[Luis Gonzalez]

We can play battle lawyers all day but I was not trying to tell you that it cannot be done, only that there is a difference between the two.

There is no difference.

Amnesty is a pardon.

It can't be anything else.

Your posted definition says that a pardon is being forgiven for committing a crime and amnesty is being forgiven for committing a crime.

They're both pardons.

[EdinVA]

There is no difference.

Amnesty is a pardon.

It can't be anything else.

Your posted definition says that a pardon is being forgiven for committing a crime and amnesty is being forgiven for committing a crime.

They're both pardons.

 convicted of a crime vs committed a crime.... your leaving out to many words Louis... :)

[DCPatriot]

Come on, guys.

We're splitting hairs here.  Amnesty is a pardon where I went to school. Illegal immigrants suddenly become simply "immigrants".

I'm sure what Trump is talking about here when he says which will be targeted are those that are totally dependent on the State for survival.

If there's a source of income and they can prove it, they get amnesty and can stay and prosper.

[EdinVA]

Come on, guys.

We're splitting hairs here.  Amnesty is a pardon where I went to school. Illegal immigrants suddenly become simply "immigrants".

I'm sure what Trump is talking about here when he says which will be targeted are those that are totally dependent on the State for survival.

If there's a source of income and they can prove it, they get amnesty and can stay and prosper.

Aw DC, you spoiled it... I had Luis on the ropes and he was ready to say I'm right... :)

[DCPatriot]

Aw DC, you spoiled it... I had Luis on the ropes and he was ready to say I'm right... :)

 

[Luis Gonzalez]

convicted of a crime vs committed a crime.... your leaving out to many words Louis... :)

What crime was Nixon convicted of?

[EdinVA]

What crime was Nixon convicted of?

    making false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States;

    withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States;

    approving, condoning, acquiescing in, and counselling witnesses with respect to the giving of false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States and false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings;

    interfering or endeavouring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the Department of Justice of the United States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force, and Congressional Committees;

    approving, condoning, and acquiescing in, the surreptitious payment of substantial sums of money for the purpose of obtaining the silence or influencing the testimony of witnesses, potential witnesses or individuals who participated in such unlawful entry and other illegal activities;

    endeavouring to misuse the Central Intelligence Agency, an agency of the United States;

    disseminating information received from officers of the Department of Justice of the United States to subjects of investigations conducted by lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States, for the purpose of aiding and assisting such subjects in their attempts to avoid criminal liability;

    making or causing to be made false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation had been conducted with respect to allegations of misconduct on the part of personnel of the executive branch of the United States and personnel of the Committee for the Re-election of the President, and that there was no involvement of such personnel in such misconduct: or

    endeavouring to cause prospective defendants, and individuals duly tried and convicted, to expect favoured treatment and consideration in return for their silence or false testimony, or rewarding individuals for their silence or false testimony.

http://watergate.info/impeachment/articles-of-impeachment

[Luis Gonzalez]

    making false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States;

    withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States;

    approving, condoning, acquiescing in, and counselling witnesses with respect to the giving of false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States and false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings;

    interfering or endeavouring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the Department of Justice of the United States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force, and Congressional Committees;

    approving, condoning, and acquiescing in, the surreptitious payment of substantial sums of money for the purpose of obtaining the silence or influencing the testimony of witnesses, potential witnesses or individuals who participated in such unlawful entry and other illegal activities;

    endeavouring to misuse the Central Intelligence Agency, an agency of the United States;

    disseminating information received from officers of the Department of Justice of the United States to subjects of investigations conducted by lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States, for the purpose of aiding and assisting such subjects in their attempts to avoid criminal liability;

    making or causing to be made false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation had been conducted with respect to allegations of misconduct on the part of personnel of the executive branch of the United States and personnel of the Committee for the Re-election of the President, and that there was no involvement of such personnel in such misconduct: or

    endeavouring to cause prospective defendants, and individuals duly tried and convicted, to expect favoured treatment and consideration in return for their silence or false testimony, or rewarding individuals for their silence or false testimony.

http://watergate.info/impeachment/articles-of-impeachment

Nixon was never convicted of a crime. His pardon helped him avoid trial.

Really. I thought everyone knew that.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Nixon was never convicted of a crime. His pardon helped him avoid trial.

Really. I thought everyone knew that.

In fact, Nixon resigned to avoid impeachment and was pardoned a month later before being charged with any crimes.

[truth_seeker]

In fact, Nixon resigned to avoid impeachment and was pardoned a month later before being charged with any crimes.

Exactly. No wonder the term "low information" arises.

[Godzilla]

Here is an analogy I like to use.

The federal law regulating highway speeds was enacted in 1974 in response to oil shortages.  It stayed with us until 1995 when that authority reverted back to the states.  A man who drove 65 MPH in 1974 was breaking the law.  A man who does it today is obeying the law.  Same behavior, different consequences.

When the immigration laws were changed under Reagan 3 million criminals were no longer criminals.

Our immigration laws are broken.  They need to be changed to reflect the labor needs of our businesses.  A huge chunk of our service economy does not need college graduates...it needs burger flippers and toilet cleaners and Americans are not producing enough manual laborers, in part because we abort a million babies a year.

Trump proposes that the fix is to enforce the broken laws and deport 30 million people.  I think that would be ruinous for our economy and a black mark on the American soul.   

I meant to say hello earlier Godzilla...I've been enjoying your posts.  Welcome.

This is true, but the correlary to it is that all those speeders today are perfectly legal.  As would all the illegal immigrants become legal immigrants if the law is changed.

Which is my point.

Basing one's argument over the law is dangerous, as the whole foundation can be ripped out from under should the law be changed.

I mean, are we still arguing over how all those people driving 65mph are speeders breaking the 'law'?

And I highly doubt that, if the law was changed to make the current illegals... legal, that the conservatives who are against illegals would suddenly say, "Oh, well.  The law says that they are now legal.  No laws are now being broken, so we are happy with the situation."

Yet, the substance of their argument is *EXACTLY* that. 

I would prefer that the argument be based on their actual concerns... and not on an artifice that can be so easily destroyed.

[EdinVA]

And I highly doubt that, if the law was changed to make the current illegals... legal, that the conservatives who are against illegals would suddenly say, "Oh, well.  The law says that they are now legal.  No laws are now being broken, so we are happy with the situation."

Yet, the substance of their argument is *EXACTLY* that. 

I would prefer that the argument be based on their actual concerns... and not on an artifice that can be so easily destroyed.

Just like the abortion argument, right.  It's the law, so what....

[EdinVA]

In fact, Nixon resigned to avoid impeachment and was pardoned a month later before being charged with any crimes.

Ok, Luis, you win... :)
I was out of the country then and did not follow it closely..

[EC]

I was out of the country then and did not follow it closely..