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Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« on: April 04, 2015, 01:35:30 pm »
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Newsmax
Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
Saturday, April 4, 2015 08:18 AM

By: By LOLITA C. BALDOR

Surveys find that men in U.S. special operations forces do not believe women can meet the physical and mental demands of their commando jobs, and they fear the Pentagon will lower standards to integrate women into their elite units, according to interviews and documents obtained by The Associated Press.

Studies that surveyed personnel found "major misconceptions" within special operations about whether women should be brought into the male-only jobs. They also revealed concerns that department leaders would "capitulate to political pressure, allowing erosion of training standards," according to one document.

Some of those concerns were not limited to men, researchers found, but were found among women in special operations jobs.

Dan Bland, force management director for U.S. Special Operations Command, told the AP that the survey results have "already driven us to do some different things in terms of educating the force."

About 68,800 people serve in the command, including 3,000 civilians. The main survey went to about 18,000 people who are in positions closed to women, and the response was about 50 percent. The high response rate, officials said, reflects the wide interest in the subject.

The studies are part of the Pentagon's effort to open all military combat positions to women or provide reasons why any jobs should remain closed.

One survey, by RAND Corp., reflected doubts that women could meet the overall job demands, found concerns that sexual harassment or assault could increase, and cited worries about "unequal treatment" of special operations candidates and personnel. Some worried that if women were let in to some jobs, they might be treated more harshly.

Survey details have not been released. This was the first time that officials from Special Operations Command publicly discussed the results.

Andy Hamilton, who works with Bland and has expertise on this issue, noted that women in special operations jobs had concerns, too, about the broader integration.

"They're concerned that this might result in the lowering of the standards in what are currently our male-only occupations, and that would then reflect on either them or on the women who come into those occupations," said Hamilton.

Pentagon leaders lifted the ban on women in combat jobs in 2012, but gave the military services time to integrate women gradually and systematically into the male-only front-line positions. By January 2016, the military must open all combat jobs to women or explain why any exceptions must be made.

Positions within the special operations forces, including the clandestine Navy SEAL and Army Delta units, are considered the most grueling and difficult jobs in the military, with training and qualifying courses that push troops to their physical, mental and emotional limits. The commandos often work in small teams in harsh, remote locations.

As a result, those jobs are some of the last to be addressed as commanders review the qualifications needed and assess the impact of bringing in women.

As integration unfolds, the surveys have brought home the reality that there are "some reservations or misperceptions in the force in terms of why we're doing this," Bland said. Defense officials have stressed that they will not reduce standards in order to let in women.

Women have so far had mixed results as they try to move into the more demanding combat positions — jobs for which men also have difficulty qualifying.

So far, about 7,200 positions within the special operations forces have been opened to women, including combat jobs in the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, a specialized unit used to fly forces fast, low and deep behind enemy lines at night. For the first time, a woman last year made it through training and began serving as a pilot in the unit. Three female pilots, 25 women in other jobs, and 16 other women are now going through initial training for these helicopter crews, known as Night Stalkers.

Most female soldiers do not want combat jobs, an earlier survey found. But among those who do, the Night Stalkers were a popular choice.

Women have moved into Army artillery jobs and serve on Navy submarines and in the naval Riverine units. But none has made it through the Marine Corps' officer infantry course.

Special operations command leaders have made it clear that genuine concerns exist about incorporating women into some jobs.

In 2013, when the planning was in its infancy, then-Maj. Gen. Bennet Sacolick spoke of demanding nature of missions requiring forces "to operate in small, self-contained teams, many of which are in austere, geographically isolated, politically sensitive environments for extended periods of time."

In an email last month to members of the special operations forces across the services, Gen. Joseph Votel, head of U.S. Special Operations Command, said leaders had done initial analysis on training, facilities, education and other policies. Now, officials are examining "the social and cultural challenges of integrating females" into male-only jobs.

Next, Votel said, officials will analyze requirements for the jobs to make sure standards are accurate and gender neutral.

"We will continue in our commitment to provide the best manned, trained, and equipped special operations personnel to execute our nation's most difficult and sensitive missions," Votel said. "With that in mind, we can assure you that our high standards will not be lowered."

Bland said that in addition to Votel's email to service members, leaders have discussed the issue with commanders at frequent meetings so they can better educate their troops.

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Offline aligncare

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2015, 02:42:47 pm »
Political correctness will be the death of America.

If we can't accept the truth of basic biological differences between men and women, we are too plain stupid to survive the ravages of world-wide security threats.

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2015, 02:59:07 pm »
Political correctness will be the death of America.

If we can't accept the truth of basic biological differences between men and women, we are too plain stupid to survive the ravages of world-wide security threats.

Absolutely!  And you can add one more SF vote to that survey.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2015, 03:07:42 pm »
Political correctness will be the death of America.

If we can't accept the truth of basic biological differences between men and women, we are too plain stupid to survive the ravages of world-wide security threats.

There are many, many, many things women CAN do, which have been denied us in the (recent) past, but the idea that any of us is physically equal to the most physically fit man is absurd............ and dangerous.

When our son was first deployed there were women in his unit who could not have carried him off the field of battle if he were wounded.  That put him at further risk..... not to mention them.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2015, 03:36:27 pm »
Anyone interested in this subject should read Stephanie Gutmann's excellent book:

The Kinder, Gentler Military: Can America's Gender-Neutral Fighting Force Still Win Wars?

Ever since Tailhook, it's been nonstop BS.
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Online DCPatriot

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2015, 03:43:18 pm »


The hell you say.......
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 03:44:15 pm by DCPatriot »
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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2015, 05:13:52 pm »
I couldn't make the Rangers but then I'm 67.  Even in my younger days it isn't likely I could have cut the mustard.  So if women try and fail, they will be no different than about 90% who try.  No shame in that.  But the military should NOT lower the standards to be politically correct.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2015, 05:54:56 pm »
I couldn't make the Rangers but then I'm 67.  Even in my younger days it isn't likely I could have cut the mustard.  So if women try and fail, they will be no different than about 90% who try.  No shame in that.  But the military should NOT lower the standards to be politically correct.

Amen!
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2015, 06:24:15 pm »
There are a lot of aspects of conflict, which are not simply the sharp end of the sword, so to say.

Psychological operations, intelligence, deception, "hearts and minds," code breaking, to name a few.

The idea of a female, joining a group of combat Seals and Deltas, is just one aspect.  How about other roles?

When I ran a lot of marathons, I was usually 10% down from the male winners. And often near the leading females.

In other words, I have run and trained with women, who would run 26 miles at under a 7 minute per mile pace. Therefore there is no doubt in my mind that women can reach the level of endurance for special forces.

But two physical attributes which are different for women, include relative upper body strength, and body size/weight, argue against making the grade where strength is involved. Women have higher body fat percent, which is okay for swimming, but not otherwise.

Size matters. A few elite, bigger women can probably make the grade, physically. But just a few.



 
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2015, 06:53:05 pm »
I couldn't make the Rangers but then I'm 67.  Even in my younger days it isn't likely I could have cut the mustard.  So if women try and fail, they will be no different than about 90% who try.  No shame in that.  But the military should NOT lower the standards to be politically correct.

And therein lies the problem.  Yes there are some women who might be able to accomplish the job, but that is step one in gender-normalization.  Step two then is showing how the higher standards are really sexist.  And of course there are other issues involving women in combat.
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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2015, 07:11:19 pm »
Political correctness will be the death of America.

If we can't accept the truth of basic biological differences between men and women, we are too plain stupid to survive the ravages of world-wide security threats.

Absolutely! And the differences are both physical and psychological. No way should women be put in the kinds of situations that SF people routinely find themselves facing.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2015, 07:13:22 pm »
There are a lot of aspects of conflict, which are not simply the sharp end of the sword, so to say.

Psychological operations, intelligence, deception, "hearts and minds," code breaking, to name a few.

The idea of a female, joining a group of combat Seals and Deltas, is just one aspect.  How about other roles?

When I ran a lot of marathons, I was usually 10% down from the male winners. And often near the leading females.

In other words, I have run and trained with women, who would run 26 miles at under a 7 minute per mile pace. Therefore there is no doubt in my mind that women can reach the level of endurance for special forces.

But two physical attributes which are different for women, include relative upper body strength, and body size/weight, argue against making the grade where strength is involved. Women have higher body fat percent, which is okay for swimming, but not otherwise.

Size matters. A few elite, bigger women can probably make the grade, physically. But just a few.

There are many roles a woman can play in the military.  The book I referenced earlier pointed out what happened in the Navy when women were permitted to fill slots on combat ships.  A pregnant woman could not go into combat, and had to get pregnancy leave and bonding leave after the birth of the baby.  A very high pregnancy rate became the norm, and the Navy could not backfill the slots, requiring the existing personnel to take over the jobs.  This is just one of the issues.  Now the military has to deal with gays, lesbians and other assorted LGBT individuals. 

And yes I remember the integration of blacks into regular units, but they had served during every war and didn't involve the issues these more recent attempts have.

But the military will survive it all because in spite of many issues it's still the best in the world for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that we spend as much as most of the rest of the world put together.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2015, 08:38:59 pm »
When our son was first deployed there were women in his unit who could not have carried him off the field of battle if he were wounded.  That put him at further risk..... not to mention them.

This is why I've always said women should have the same PT standards as men in the military. No offense to any of the ladies in the service but I always felt safer with men. In the 17-21 age bracket (which has the highest standards for both sexes) women are required to do 19 pushups compared to 42 for the men. They also have a full 3 minutes extra for their 2 mile run, and if you've ever timed your 2 mile runs you will know 3 minutes is huge. I think in the higher age brackets the women don't even need to do 10 pushups and get almost 20 minutes for their run.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 08:41:35 pm by Dexter »
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2015, 09:02:10 pm »
This is why I've always said women should have the same PT standards as men in the military. No offense to any of the ladies in the service but I always felt safer with men. In the 17-21 age bracket (which has the highest standards for both sexes) women are required to do 19 pushups compared to 42 for the men. They also have a full 3 minutes extra for their 2 mile run, and if you've ever timed your 2 mile runs you will know 3 minutes is huge. I think in the higher age brackets the women don't even need to do 10 pushups and get almost 20 minutes for their run.

It's a lose-lose situation.  You either lower the standards or they are condemned as sexist.  The Marines eliminated pull-ups from the requirements because most women couldn't do 3.  In today's world of equality, if any group cannot do what other groups can do, you simply do away with that requirement altogether or lower the standard for that particular group. 
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2015, 09:08:18 pm »
This is why I've always said women should have the same PT standards as men in the military. No offense to any of the ladies in the service but I always felt safer with men. In the 17-21 age bracket (which has the highest standards for both sexes) women are required to do 19 pushups compared to 42 for the men. They also have a full 3 minutes extra for their 2 mile run, and if you've ever timed your 2 mile runs you will know 3 minutes is huge. I think in the higher age brackets the women don't even need to do 10 pushups and get almost 20 minutes for their run.

His first deployment was in an Army Reserve unit where a lot of the women who deployed with him had been in a looong time, and were in no shape to go anywhere to protect anyone.  Fortunately, even though his base was mortared and some there were killed, he never had to depend on these older, less capable women to do anything.

In the wars we now fight, there is no such thing as being off the front lines.  Everyone is at risk in an asymmetrical war against blood-thirsty terrorists.

That's why I think the same standards need to be applied to everyone.  If you can't cut it, you don't make it.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline EC

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2015, 10:01:55 pm »
In the wars we now fight, there is no such thing as being off the front lines.  Everyone is at risk in an asymmetrical war against blood-thirsty terrorists.

That's why I think the same standards need to be applied to everyone.  If you can't cut it, you don't make it.

Exactly!

There are women who are certainly capable of meeting the standards - everyone here probably knows at least one who comes damned close at least. Let them serve.

Everyone else - There is no shame in not being able to meet the standards of special ops, but the ability to fight like a possessed chainsaw is needed in ALL ranks and positions now.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Special Ops Troops Doubt Women Can Do the Job
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2015, 12:26:05 am »
While we are no doubt facing a 360 degree battlefield, there is nonetheless a substantial difference between extended combat operations away from operating bases, and the potential for attacks within those sectors.  I agree that women of all ranks and specialties in a war zone need good combat training, but I do not want to see them in any extended combat situations for a number of reasons, some of which I've mentioned above.  I understand it's not politically correct and can live with that.
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