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Run, Mitt, Run
« on: January 01, 2015, 02:29:18 pm »
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/01/run_mitt_run.html

January 1, 2015
Run, Mitt, Run
By Gene Schwimmer

To the surprise of no one who has been following the will-he-or-won’t-he back-and-forth of the past few weeks, it looks he will.  Jeb Bush is running for president.

Okay, he’s not running; he’s just “actively exploring” running.  And Napoleon was “actively exploring” invading Russia.  Let us conservatives hope, then, that Jeb doesn’t meet his own Waterloo in 2016.

The real surprise is that, almost before the pixels have dried on the pundits’ computer screen, Jeb Bush has moved to the head of the pack of presidential hopefuls, leading runner-up Christie by a full ten points according to a CNN poll.

Is it too early to warn conservative Republicans of the danger of sitting out an election?  Failing to heed such warnings then gave us four more years of Obama, five million legalized-by-fiat immigrants, and normalized relations with Cuba and perhaps with Iran.  Failing to heed such warnings in ’16 leaves conservatives with one, and only one, other choice: get ready for Hillary.  And perhaps get ready, too, for the justice Hillary nominates to replace Nino Scalia.

So, GOP conservatives, consider yourselves warned.  By all means, support whomever you like in the primaries.  But commit yourselves also to support, in the general election, whoever emerges as our 2016 candidate.

And please, Lord (and fellow conservatives), whomever we nominate, let our candidate be a governor.  The times are too perilous, the stakes too high, to risk picking a candidate with no managerial/executive experience, preferably behind a governor’s desk.  Let us not learn the hard way, as our friends on the left learned with Obama, the folly of filling the highest, most important executive position in the nation, with someone who has never run so much as a 7-Eleven.

I will do everything I can to elect Ted Cruz if he is nominated, despite the total absence so far of evidence of any ability to reach out even to the other side of his own party, let alone to Democrats.  And fortunately for conservatives, there is at least one potential governor presidential candidate who should satisfy, if not delight, conservatives: Bobby Jindal.

But Jindal has not announced a candidacy, nor has Chris Christie (whom, if he does run, conservatives will find less palatable than Jeb Bush) or Rick Perry.  So for the time being, at least, there is only one announced candidate who has governed anything: Jeb Bush, whose electoral strength, based on the aforementioned CNN poll, many observers have underestimated.  So let us see what other strengths – and weakness – Jeb would bring to a presidential race, courtesy of George Will, who manages, in one succinct paragraph, to summarize both Jeb’s positives and his negatives:

Quote
Bush, 61, is the tax-cutting, fiscally austere, school-choice-promoting, gun-rights-protecting, socially conservative, Spanish-speaking, former two-term governor of the most important swing state.  But for some Republicans, his virtues and achievements are vitiated by his positions on immigration and the Common Core education standards.

Also, Jeb was the very popular “two-term governor of the most important swing state.”  Jeb’s fluency in Spanish, of course, has nothing to do with conservatism.  But being able to hablar español certainly confers an advantage in an important swing state with a large Cuban population.

Or perhaps we should add a third item to the “Cons” list: Jeb’s surname.  Some, perhaps many Republicans who would have no problem voting for “Jeb Smith” or “Jeb Jones” would find it hard to vote for a Jeb Bush.  Those with a strong aversion to another Bush candidacy, who prefer their politics served hot à la Cruz or Paul, ought to Get Ready for Hillary, because no conservative firebrand is going to defeat the potential First Woman President.  Not gonna happen.

Oh, and one more thing: Ben Carson for VP, regardless of whom we choose for the top slot in the ticket.  A Bush-Carson ticket would, in this writer’s view, be a formidable ticket for the GOP to send into battle against presumed Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton.

But a Romney-Carson ticket would be even better.  Romney, the guy who was proven right on every point of disagreement with Obama in the presidential debates.  Romney with a House and a Senate controlled by Republicans.  Romney without the persecution of conservative 501(c)s.  Romney with an election apparatus that, as we just saw in November, has erased Democrats’ ground game advantage, specifically to include the new techniques of data mining and micro-targeting.

And Romney with conservatives who learned the lessons of  2012 and show up at the polls, this time?

Run, Mitt, run!


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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2015, 09:52:40 pm »
Quote
Oh, and one more thing: Ben Carson for VP, regardless of whom we choose for the top slot in the ticket.  A Bush-Carson ticket would, in this writer’s view, be a formidable ticket for the GOP to send into battle against presumed Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton.
This is real comedy gold.

So only a governor has the proper background to serve as President, but a guy who's never been in government or politics in his life is all of a sudden good enough to be next in line?

Show some consistency, man!
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2015, 05:39:02 am »
I still do not believe that Jeb Bush can overcome both the dynastic overtones of a third Bush president, nor the polarizing reactions to the Bush name due to GWB.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2015, 05:55:32 am »
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/01/run_mitt_run.html

I will do everything I can to elect Ted Cruz if he is nominated, despite the total absence so far of evidence of any ability to reach out even to the other side of his own party, let alone to Democrats.

The epitome of deep but very, very narrow appeal.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2015, 06:00:21 am »
Can't vote for Cruz or Rubio.

They don't meet Constitutional qualifications to hold the office.
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2015, 05:12:55 pm »
Can't vote for Cruz or Rubio.

They don't meet Constitutional qualifications to hold the office.

Natural born citizen—as in, U.S. citizenship was bestowed upon the candidate, at birth, by any means, and the candidate didn't have to naturalize.

As neither Cruz nor Rubio have been naturalized, and both serve openly in the U.S. Senate thus confirming they are now U.S. citizens, then they must have both been citizens from birth and thus, by definition, natural born citizens.

35 years old—both Cruz and Rubio fit those requirements.

Resided in the U.S. fourteen years—both Cruz and Rubio fit those requirements.

So what constitutional qualifications do they lack?
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2015, 05:42:05 pm »
Natural born citizen—as in, U.S. citizenship was bestowed upon the candidate, at birth, by any means, and the candidate didn't have to naturalize.

As neither Cruz nor Rubio have been naturalized, and both serve openly in the U.S. Senate thus confirming they are now U.S. citizens, then they must have both been citizens from birth and thus, by definition, natural born citizens.

35 years old—both Cruz and Rubio fit those requirements.

Resided in the U.S. fourteen years—both Cruz and Rubio fit those requirements.

So what constitutional qualifications do they lack?

I've gone over this way too many times.

I've written extensively, and I'm not about to do it all over again here.

To be a natural born citizen, one's citizenship must be gained Jus sanguinis, so jus soli citizenship does not fulfill the natural born citizen Constitutional requirement.
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2015, 06:13:14 pm »
Quote
To be a natural born citizen, one's citizenship must be gained Jus sanguinis, so jus soli citizenship does not fulfill the natural born citizen Constitutional requirement.
That is a lie and a falsehood.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2015, 06:20:27 pm »
In the runup to the 1968 GOP primary, George Romney, former Governor of Michigan, was running.

He was born in Mexico, however, to members of a Mormon outpost.

Some "experts" declared him eligible, but some others did NOT.

He eventually dropped out, and his eligibility no longer justified any debate or research.
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2015, 06:22:15 pm »
That is a lie and a falsehood.

Please do support your claim.
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2015, 07:34:38 pm »
Please do support your claim.
Plain English supports my claim.

Natural = Given automatically, without any assistance.

Born = At birth.

Citizen of the United States = The status in question.

To complicate it further than what the plain English says is the work of attorneys with agendas to push and too much time on their hands.
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2015, 07:53:39 pm »
Disappointed to see here on this otherwise intelligent forum, opposing sides of an important issue, say they won't explain their positions for us.

Specifics regarding Cruz and Rubio, would be interesting.

George Romney was deemed by a Congressional legal research project to NOT be eligible, but he dropped out and the legal position faded into history. Born on foreign soil, to non-diplomat citizen parents.

Then we have all of the anti-Obama gibberish, Kenya, de Vattel, etc. We have a recent congressional vote declaring McCain, born in a non-military hospital in a foreign land, to citizen parents, as eligible.

So the facts and opinions need to be vetted. The Fresno forum has declared discussion of Cruz to be out of bounds, since he has been adopted as their golden boy.

To me Rubio's case is strongest; born on US soil requires no other qualifications.

Or we can just drop it, because neither is a top tier contender.

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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2015, 08:55:10 pm »
I've gone over this way too many times.

I've written extensively, and I'm not about to do it all over again here.

To be a natural born citizen, one's citizenship must be gained Jus sanguinis, so jus soli citizenship does not fulfill the natural born citizen Constitutional requirement.

With all due respect, I disagree.  We followed the English common law in this and most other areas.  It was really all the Founding Fathers knew.  We swapped out "natural born subjects" for "natural born citizens" only because our citizens were not subjects of the King.  In fact Massachusetts used natural born subjects well into the early days of our Republic out of habit.  The 1790 Naturalization Act simply expanded the ability to become a natural born citizen to areas outside the US limits of US citizens, provided the father had been a resident.  In 2008, the Senate declared McCain was a natural born citizen having been born in the Canal Zone.

Rubio was born in Miami.  He is a natural born citizen.  Cruz was born outside of US jurisdiction, but his mother was a US citizen.  While not as clear-cut, I believe him to fall within the classification of natural born citizen.  And I doubt any court or Congress would declare otherwise.

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2015, 08:58:44 pm »
With all due respect, I disagree.  We followed the English common law in this and most other areas.  It was really all the Founding Fathers knew.  We swapped out "natural born subjects" for "natural born citizens" only because our citizens were not subjects of the King.  In fact Massachusetts used natural born subjects well into the early days of our Republic out of habit.  The 1790 Naturalization Act simply expanded the ability to become a natural born citizen to areas outside the US limits of US citizens, provided the father had been a resident.  In 2008, the Senate declared McCain was a natural born citizen having been born in the Canal Zone.

Rubio was born in Miami.  He is a natural born citizen.  Cruz was born outside of US jurisdiction, but his mother was a US citizen.  While not as clear-cut, I believe him to fall within the classification of natural born citizen.  And I doubt any court or Congress would declare otherwise.



They are both natural born citizens.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2015, 08:59:11 pm »
Plain English supports my claim.

Natural = Given automatically, without any assistance.

Born = At birth.

Citizen of the United States = The status in question.

To complicate it further than what the plain English says is the work of attorneys with agendas to push and too much time on their hands.

Plain English you said?

Plain English it is.

Amendment XIV U.S. Constitution.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

So, according to the XIV Amendment and your definition of what constitutes a natural born citizen, Arnold Schwarzenegger and I qualify to fill the position of POTUS, since no State (and by extension the Federal government via the doctrine of reverse incorporation) can abridge or deny our privilege to serve the nation as POTUS. 

Agreed?
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2015, 09:03:40 pm »
In the runup to the 1968 GOP primary, George Romney, former Governor of Michigan, was running.

He was born in Mexico, however, to members of a Mormon outpost.

Some "experts" declared him eligible, but some others did NOT.

He eventually dropped out, and his eligibility no longer justified any debate or research.


Well he actually dropped out due to the fact that he was acting crazy.. Had he not, he could have won.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2015, 09:20:04 pm »
With all due respect, I disagree.  We followed the English common law in this and most other areas.  It was really all the Founding Fathers knew.  We swapped out "natural born subjects" for "natural born citizens" only because our citizens were not subjects of the King.  In fact Massachusetts used natural born subjects well into the early days of our Republic out of habit.  The 1790 Naturalization Act simply expanded the ability to become a natural born citizen to areas outside the US limits of US citizens, provided the father had been a resident.  In 2008, the Senate declared McCain was a natural born citizen having been born in the Canal Zone.

Rubio was born in Miami.  He is a natural born citizen.  Cruz was born outside of US jurisdiction, but his mother was a US citizen.  While not as clear-cut, I believe him to fall within the classification of natural born citizen.  And I doubt any court or Congress would declare otherwise.

Amendment XIV U.S. Constitution.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

So, according to the XIV Amendment and your definition of what constitutes a natural born citizen, Arnold Schwarzenegger and I qualify to fill the position of POTUS, since no State (and by extension the Federal government via the doctrine of reverse incorporation) can abridge or deny our privilege to serve the nation as POTUS. 

Here's something curious:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution.

The Constitution is a study in minimalism, everywhere except here.

If a citizen is a citizen, then why does the carve out identify two distinct classes of citizen?

It can't be to distinguish a citizen from a naturalized citizen, it would say so. The only individual allowed to hold the office is that elusive  natural born Citizen. There was a distinct and finite number of people that qualified for the "at the time of the adoption of this Constitution" portion of the document, and the XIV Amendment's Privileges and Immunities Clause tells us that naturalized citizens are equal under all laws.

So, if that citizen born is equal to that naturalized one, why can't the naturalized citizen be POTUS?

Because a NBC attains their citizenship Jus sanguinis,

You don't have to agree, but I'm not moving an inch on this any more than you are.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2015, 09:45:42 pm »
Amendment XIV U.S. Constitution.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

So, according to the XIV Amendment and your definition of what constitutes a natural born citizen, Arnold Schwarzenegger and I qualify to fill the position of POTUS, since no State (and by extension the Federal government via the doctrine of reverse incorporation) can abridge or deny our privilege to serve the nation as POTUS.

I know Schwarzenegger wasn't born within the jurisdiction of the US and both parents were Austrian.  I don't know where you were born Luis.  If you were born on US soil, you are a natural born citizen...and I'd be happy to vote for you!  I doubt a naturalized citizen would pass muster, because even the 14th distinguishes, as did the Founding Fathers. 

Quote
Here's something curious:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution.

The Constitution is a study in minimalism, everywhere except here.

If a citizen is a citizen, then why does the carve out identify two distinct classes of citizen

It can't be to distinguish a citizen from a naturalized citizen, it would say so. The only individual allowed to hold the office is that elusive  natural born Citizen. There was a distinct and finite number of people that qualified for the "at the time of the adoption of this Constitution" portion of the document, and the XIV Amendment's Privileges and Immunities Clause tells us that naturalized citizens are equal under all laws.

Because some of the residents of the US were actually born overseas, and at the time there was no US, therefore no jurisdictional question.  They wanted all presidents to be born here, but made that exception. Even the first Naturalization Act pretty much explained that.  There really are only two classes of citizenry: those born here, or those naturalized. Over time the only question that remained was for those born outside of the US, and American Indians.  Currently unless it is US territory or other jurisdiction, at least one parent must be a citizen.

Quote
So, if that citizen born is equal to that naturalized one, why can't the naturalized citizen be POTUS?

Because a NBC attains their citizenship Jus sanguinis,

You don't have to agree, but I'm not moving an inch on this any more than you are.

Personally, I don't have a problem with a naturalized citizen being president.  The dangers to the Republic today aren't those of concern to the Founders in 1787.  But I'd say take it to court.  The uphill battle is for those believing that there are two types of citizens born on US soil or within its jurisdiction.
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2015, 09:48:55 pm »
Here is the factoid about George Romney: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Romney
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2015, 11:40:13 pm »
I know Schwarzenegger wasn't born within the jurisdiction of the US and both parents were Austrian.  I don't know where you were born Luis.  If you were born on US soil, you are a natural born citizen...and I'd be happy to vote for you!  I doubt a naturalized citizen would pass muster, because even the 14th distinguishes, as did the Founding Fathers. 

Because some of the residents of the US were actually born overseas, and at the time there was no US, therefore no jurisdictional question.  They wanted all presidents to be born here, but made that exception. Even the first Naturalization Act pretty much explained that.  There really are only two classes of citizenry: those born here, or those naturalized. Over time the only question that remained was for those born outside of the US, and American Indians.  Currently unless it is US territory or other jurisdiction, at least one parent must be a citizen.

Personally, I don't have a problem with a naturalized citizen being president.  The dangers to the Republic today aren't those of concern to the Founders in 1787.  But I'd say take it to court.  The uphill battle is for those believing that there are two types of citizens born on US soil or within its jurisdiction.

The XIV Amendment makes no distinctions between the rights and privileges of persons born citizens or naturalized. In fact the Amendment was constructed with the specific goal of establishing that the two are equal, but we KNOW that naturalized citizens are not eligible to hold the office.

So if A (persons born citizens) equals B (naturalized citizens) as per the XIV Amendment, but C (natural born citizen) does not equal B, then A can't equal C.

It's math, and math don't lie.
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2015, 11:55:12 pm »
The XIV Amendment makes no distinctions between the rights and privileges of persons born citizens or naturalized. In fact the Amendment was constructed with the specific goal of establishing that the two are equal, but we KNOW that naturalized citizens are not eligible to hold the office.

So if A (persons born citizens) equals B (naturalized citizens) as per the XIV Amendment, but C (natural born citizen) does not equal B, then A can't equal C.

It's math, and math don't lie.

The math only makes sense if you are arguing immunities and privileges.  As I said, I don't have a problem with naturalized citizens having the same rights with respect to the presidency as natural born citizens.  But having said that the 14th still distinguishes between the two categories, and there are only two: persons born within the jurisdiction of the US, and naturalized, both being citizens.

And I do believe a 14th Amendment challenge in defeating the Article II NBC clause, is still an uphill climb.  Though I'm not a constitutional attorney, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.  0005
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2015, 01:19:31 am »
The math only makes sense if you are arguing immunities and privileges.  As I said, I don't have a problem with naturalized citizens having the same rights with respect to the presidency as natural born citizens.  But having said that the 14th still distinguishes between the two categories, and there are only two: persons born within the jurisdiction of the US, and naturalized, both being citizens.

And I do believe a 14th Amendment challenge in defeating the Article II NBC clause, is still an uphill climb.  Though I'm not a constitutional attorney, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.  0005

The ability to serve as President is the privilege to serve your nation.

As I said, many have tried but my mind's as made up as yours and I'm not moving an inch on this.
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2015, 03:50:27 am »
Without exception, nearly every Constitutional amendment passed after number ten has been a disaster for the country.

The Fourteenth Amendment may be the most disastrous of all...

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2015, 01:30:47 pm »

As I said, many have tried but my mind's as made up as yours and I'm not moving an inch on this.

Mornin' Luis.  10294.

As it should be.  When we debate as we've done here and elsewhere, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  For me it's sort of a point-counterpoint.  And with Cruz and Rubio possibly in the mix, it will probably be an issue coming back from the dead.  Besides, I'm trying to get away from all the one-liners about squishy RINOs destroying the Country... 88devil 
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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2015, 02:05:09 pm »
Without exception, nearly every Constitutional amendment passed after number ten has been a disaster for the country.

The Fourteenth Amendment may be the most disastrous of all...

The way some folks interpret it yes! Interpreted as the people who wrote it intended no!
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