Author Topic: Run, Mitt, Run  (Read 4165 times)

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Offline Bigun

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2015, 02:07:40 pm »
The ability to serve as President is the privilege to serve your nation.

As I said, many have tried but my mind's as made up as yours and I'm not moving an inch on this.

As well you should not because on this issue you are as right as you can be!

Only those born in the country of parents who are citizens can legally serve in the office of president and that is as it should be.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2015, 02:14:34 pm »
As well you should not because on this issue you are as right as you can be!

Only those born in the country of parents who are citizens can legally serve in the office of president and that is as it should be.

Where does the Constitution say that?    :smokin:
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Bigun

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2015, 02:38:14 pm »
Where does the Constitution say that?    :smokin:

Right there in Article II Section one!

Quote
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2015, 02:55:38 pm »
Right there in Article II Section one!

I missed that part about citizen parents.  Wbere was that in Article II?
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2015, 03:01:27 pm »
I missed that part about citizen parents.  Wbere was that in Article II?

As Luis has already stated up thread, you and I  have plowed this furrow before. Right here on this very forum in fact.  I'm not about to do it again now.

The 14th amendment does not make anyone a "natural born" citizen. Never has and never will!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Run, Mitt, Run
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2015, 03:07:55 pm »
    Mornin' Luis.  10294.

    As it should be.  When we debate as we've done here and elsewhere, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  For me it's sort of a point-counterpoint.  And with Cruz and Rubio possibly in the mix, it will probably be an issue coming back from the dead.  Besides, I'm trying to get away from all the one-liners about squishy RINOs destroying the Country... 88devil

    We're discussing here what the Founders meant by the term "natural born citizen" at the time of the drafting of the Constitution, how citizenship is gained, and what classes of citizenship there are.

    From The Library of Congress:


    "And the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States. And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States … APPROVED, March 26, 1790.”

    So, according to Congressional records and the Founders:

    • Citizens can either be born here or naturalized.
    • A “natural born Citizen” however is one who is born of parents who are citizens.
    • Minor children born here of aliens do not become citizens until their parents are naturalized. Thus, they are not “natural born” citizens.

    Our Framers rejected the notion that mere location of birth within a Country (Jus soli) naturalizes the children of a foreigner.

    We can chose to believe whatever it is that we chose to believe, but if we'e discussing original intent, then what we need to understand is what the Founders thought and believe at the time of the drafting of the Constitution, and according to their thoughts and beliefs, Obama is not a natural born citizen since his father did not meet the qualifications, nor do Cruz or Rubio.[/list]
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

    Offline Bigun

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    Re: Run, Mitt, Run
    « Reply #31 on: January 03, 2015, 03:23:12 pm »
      So, according to Congressional records and the Founders:

      • Citizens can either be born here or naturalized.
      • A “natural born Citizen” however is one who is born of parents who are citizens.
      • Minor children born here of aliens do not become citizens until their parents are naturalized. Thus, they are not “natural born” citizens.

      Our Framers rejected the notion that mere location of birth within a Country (Jus soli) naturalizes the children of a foreigner.

      We can chose to believe whatever it is that we chose to believe, but if we'e discussing original intent, then what we need to understand is what the Founders thought and believe at the time of the drafting of the Constitution, and according to their thoughts and beliefs, Obama is not a natural born citizen since his father did not meet the qualifications, nor do Cruz or Rubio.

    EXACTLY right Luis! Spot on!

    And they rejected Jus Soli for a VERY good reason! One cannot become President of the United States by right of birth!

    "I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

    "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
    - J. R. R. Tolkien

    Offline MACVSOG68

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    Re: Run, Mitt, Run
    « Reply #32 on: January 03, 2015, 05:26:08 pm »
    Luis wrote:

    Quote
    So, according to Congressional records and the Founders:


    1.Citizens can either be born here or naturalized.
    2.A “natural born Citizen” however is one who is born of parents who are citizens.
    3.Minor children born here of aliens do not become citizens until their parents are naturalized. Thus, they are not “natural born” citizens.

    You are correct with respect to Number 1.

    You are partially correct with respect to Number 2.  In fact the wording of the 1790 Act pretty much defines it as well as any history can.  By stating that the children of citizens born (out of the jurisdiction) of the United States are also considered as natural born citizens settles the issue.  If you were born here, you were a natural born citizen; if you were born outside of the US jurisdiction, you had to have US citizen parents to be considered as a natural born citizen.

    You are incorrect with respect to Number 3.  The 1790 law merely confirms that any children of naturalized parents also gain citizenship with them.

    Natural born simply means being born here on US soil.  And of course the 14th Amendment left no doubt as to the two types of citizenship, natural or naturalized.
    It's the Supreme Court nominations!

    Offline MACVSOG68

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    Re: Run, Mitt, Run
    « Reply #33 on: January 03, 2015, 05:30:27 pm »
    EXACTLY right Luis! Spot on!

    And they rejected Jus Soli for a VERY good reason! One cannot become President of the United States by right of birth!

    What the Founding Fathers rejected was a president who could inherit the office like a king did.   
    It's the Supreme Court nominations!

    Offline Luis Gonzalez

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    Re: Run, Mitt, Run
    « Reply #34 on: January 03, 2015, 05:46:09 pm »
    Luis wrote:

    You are correct with respect to Number 1.

    You are partially correct with respect to Number 2.  In fact the wording of the 1790 Act pretty much defines it as well as any history can.  By stating that the children of citizens born (out of the jurisdiction) of the United States are also considered as natural born citizens settles the issue.  If you were born here, you were a natural born citizen; if you were born outside of the US jurisdiction, you had to have US citizen parents to be considered as a natural born citizen.

    You are incorrect with respect to Number 3.  The 1790 law merely confirms that any children of naturalized parents also gain citizenship with them.

    Natural born simply means being born here on US soil.  And of course the 14th Amendment left no doubt as to the two types of citizenship, natural or naturalized.

    I stop discussing things with people when they parse responses to suit them. 

    Once again the Founders drew a. Clear line of distinction between what constitutes a "citizen" and what constitutes a " natural born citizen" but you refuse to see it, even when it is clearly written in plain English.

    There are none so blind  as they who will simply not see.

    "And the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States. And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States … APPROVED, March 26, 1790.”

    Obama's father was NEVER a resident of the U.S.  He was here on a temporary student visa. Obama is not a natural born citizen.

    Anyone BORN on U.S. soil may be a citizen, and people naturalized are citizens of the U.S., but to be a natural born citizen you must be the child of parents who are citizens.
    « Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 05:50:10 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

    Offline Luis Gonzalez

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    Re: Run, Mitt, Run
    « Reply #35 on: January 03, 2015, 05:56:39 pm »
    What the Founding Fathers rejected was a president who could inherit the office like a king did.

    ... and anyone who wasn't just a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution but beyond that a "natural born citizen" (their words, not mine) from holding the office.

    You claim that citizen and natural born citizens are the same, yet natural born citizen and naturalized citizen are not, but naturalized citizen and citizen are.

    Twisted bit of logic, but hey! it works for you I guess.
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

    Offline Bigun

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    Re: Run, Mitt, Run
    « Reply #36 on: January 03, 2015, 08:02:13 pm »
    What the Founding Fathers rejected was a president who could inherit the office like a king did.

    Yep! And because of that (no established lines of ascension) they HAD to reject Jus Soli citizenship as well!
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

    "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
    - J. R. R. Tolkien

    Offline MACVSOG68

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    Re: Run, Mitt, Run
    « Reply #37 on: January 03, 2015, 09:49:01 pm »
    I stop discussing things with people when they parse responses to suit them.

    I certainly didn't change one word of your three conclusions you wrote.  I simply gave you my interpretation of them, which I don't think violates the rules of debate. 

    Quote
    Once again the Founders drew a. Clear line of distinction between what constitutes a "citizen" and what constitutes a " natural born citizen" but you refuse to see it, even when it is clearly written in plain English.

    There are none so blind  as they who will simply not see.

    I respect your writing and your intelligence, but let's try to keep it impersonal.  Thanks.

    Quote
    "And the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States. And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States … APPROVED, March 26, 1790.”

    The quote is detailing the handling of children of naturalized parents.  It says nothing about those born here, which under English common law were natural-born subjects. 

    Quote
    Obama's father was NEVER a resident of the U.S.  He was here on a temporary student visa. Obama is not a natural born citizen.

    You do realize that the naturalization laws have changed many times don't you.  Today any citizen parent qualifies if their children are born outside US jurisdiction.  But assuming that was still in the naturalization laws, it doesn't change anything, since Obama was born in the US, making him a natural-born citizen.

    Quote
    Anyone BORN on U.S. soil may be a citizen, and people naturalized are citizens of the U.S., but to be a natural born citizen you must be the child of parents who are citizens.

    I agree, if the child is born outside the US, which is exactly what the Naturalization Act said.  That is the only place it refers to natural born citizen, because the question arose about dealing with those born on foreign soil.  Since the point you made isn't reflected in the Act of 1790, one must look to the usage of the term "natural born citizen".  A look at Massachusetts naturalization acts shows through 1791 shows that the term "natural born citizen" and "natural born subject" were used interchangeably.  We know what the meaning of "natural born subject" was at that time.  It was jus soli.  The term used in Article II was "natural born citizen".  It was placed in the text with absolutely no debate or discussion.  If the intent was to completely change its meaning, any reasonable person would think there would have been some discussion of it.

    Again, I must refer you to Wong Kim Ark, where the majority Justice wrote extensively about the meaning of the term, and its history.

    Of course, after passage of the 14th Amendment, the term became obsolete, as only two types of citizens were recognized for all purposes, those born within US jurisdiction (natural born) and those naturalized through law.

     
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    Offline MACVSOG68

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    Re: Run, Mitt, Run
    « Reply #38 on: January 03, 2015, 09:54:51 pm »
    ... and anyone who wasn't just a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution but beyond that a "natural born citizen" (their words, not mine) from holding the office.

    You claim that citizen and natural born citizens are the same, yet natural born citizen and naturalized citizen are not, but naturalized citizen and citizen are.

    Twisted bit of logic, but hey! it works for you I guess.

    It actually worked for the Founding Fathers too.  They knew that at the time of adoption of the Constitution, most of those in the US were born under English or other foreign flags, and wanted to ensure they had an opportunity as a founder to be president.  But for those born after adoption, only those born on US soil qualified.  As you know though, the Naturalization Act of 1790 expanded that definition for some born outside of US jurisdiction.
    It's the Supreme Court nominations!

    Offline MACVSOG68

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    Re: Run, Mitt, Run
    « Reply #39 on: January 03, 2015, 11:15:28 pm »
    Yep! And because of that (no established lines of ascension) they HAD to reject Jus Soli citizenship as well!

    Actually most European monarchs passed on their right of throne to their surviving heirs.  Yet most of Europe used jus sanguinis for purposes of citizenship.  The right to inherit the thrones worked much better under that law than it did under jus soli.  Blood inheritance rather than place of birth made it much easier to pass on the throne to an heir wherever he was born.

    But in fact neither had anything substantial to do with either the British or other European rights to thrones.  They pertained to how citizenship was determined.  The British and subsequently US models used jus soli, and the US even expanded it further to permit natural born citizenship to those born outside of US soil, if by US citizen parents.
    It's the Supreme Court nominations!