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What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« on: December 12, 2014, 11:08:46 pm »
http://townhall.com/columnists/jackkerwick/2014/12/12/what-the-grand-jury-knewand-we-didntin-the-eric-garner-case-n1930531/print


What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
Jack Kerwick
12/12/2014 12:01:00 PM

In this column, I recently argued in favor of a grand jury’s refusal to indict Officer Dan Pantaleo for the death of Eric Garner. To my dismay (and, frankly, shock), a great many “conservatives” and “libertarians,” I’ve had the great misfortune to discover, disagree vehemently with the grand jury’s decision. Some have gone so far as to describe Garner’s death as murder.

Bear in mind, the critics’ knowledge of this case extends no further than a 15 second or so video of the fatal arrest and the fact that Garner was illegally selling cigarettes. That’s it. It is coupled by their belief—one that I share, by the way—that this offense of Garner’s should not be a criminal offense at all. Thus, the police, so goes the reasoning, never should’ve placed him under arrest in the first place

The police, though, are not authorized to be selective with respect to the laws that they enforce: Officers of the law are obligated to enforce the laws—whether they personally believe that the laws are just or unjust, good or bad.

New information has surfaced since my last article on this subject that sharpens that much more the contrast between the critics’ state of knowledge regarding this whole situation with that of the grand jury.

For months, twenty-three strangers, black, white, and Hispanic, poured over 60 items of evidence. These included four videos—i.e. significantly more footage than that on which the pontificators in the media and elsewhere have been feeding; medical records; autopsy photographs; photos from the scene of the alleged crime; and information on NYPD policies, procedures, and officer training.

Also among the evidence was testimony on the part of 50 witnesses. No fewer than 22 of these witnesses were civilians. The remainder consists of police officers, EMTs, and doctors.

The grand jury also received instruction in the “relevant principles of law” concerning an officer’s right to use force.

Officer Pantaleo explained that he did not apply a “chokehold” to Garner. Rather, he applied a move that he learned in the police academy, a move designed to “tip the person [being arrested or restrained] so that they lose their balance and go to the ground.” Though he heard Garner say that he couldn’t breathe, Pantaleo testified that given the former’s ability to speak, he didn’t think that that was actually the case. Nevertheless, he immediately released him and called the EMTs.

Pantaleo also added that he was fully aware that he was being videoed—but he didn’t mind. And he didn’t mind because he “knew” that he wasn’t “committing” any “misconduct.”

The grand jurors were in a position to evaluate Pantaleo’s account. They found that it was truthful.

The critics don’t like the outcome. But they have no argument. And how could they? To claim that the activity for which Garner was initially confronted by police never should have been a crime is wholly irrelevant to whether Officer Pantaleo acted lawfully or not in using force to bring Garner down, and even less relevant to the question of whether Pantaleo murdered Garner.

To argue—not emote, but argue—that the grand jury made the wrong decision, the aggrieved must challenge both the evidence that the jurors’ drew upon for their conclusion, as well as the reasoning that lead them from the one to the other.

As of yet, no one, as far as I’m aware, has attempted either course.
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2014, 11:13:42 pm »
Seems Mr. Garner panicked himself into a coronary.  If he suffered shortness of breath, it's possible...somebody choking you to the ground?
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2014, 11:16:11 pm »

Doesn't matter.

Only black lives matter...


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Oceander

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2014, 01:04:17 pm »
Quote
The police, though, are not authorized to be selective with respect to the laws that they enforce: Officers of the law are obligated to enforce the laws—whether they personally believe that the laws are just or unjust, good or bad.

That is absolutely not true.  Cops exercise discretion - or caprice, depending - all the time in deciding whether to enforce (e.g., through arrest) or not.  The issue isn't so much whether cops should have that discretion, the issue is how do we train them to exercise that discretion wisely.

Offline speekinout

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2014, 10:20:08 pm »
That is absolutely not true.  Cops exercise discretion - or caprice, depending - all the time in deciding whether to enforce (e.g., through arrest) or not.  The issue isn't so much whether cops should have that discretion, the issue is how do we train them to exercise that discretion wisely.

In this case, city officials, including the mayor, had told the police specifically to enforce the cigarette selling laws. And the supervising sergeant (a black woman) was at the scene.
This was more a case of Pantaleo following orders than it was of him using his own discretion.

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2014, 01:45:22 am »
In this case, city officials, including the mayor, had told the police specifically to enforce the cigarette selling laws. And the supervising sergeant (a black woman) was at the scene.
This was more a case of Pantaleo following orders than it was of him using his own discretion.

I wasn't addressing the particular situation so much as the broad generalization.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2014, 02:39:00 am »
The police, though, are not authorized to be selective with respect to the laws that they enforce: Officers of the law are obligated to enforce the laws—whether they personally believe that the laws are just or unjust, good or bad.
That is false. Officers continually decide on the fly which offenses to pursue. And how far to pursue them.

Take bicycle and pedestrian offenses. Most are overlooked, since the time to pursue them, is not a prudent allocation of department's limited resources. 

On this point the article is wrongly informed and naïve.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Oceander

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2014, 07:13:38 pm »
That is false. Officers continually decide on the fly which offenses to pursue. And how far to pursue them.

Take bicycle and pedestrian offenses. Most are overlooked, since the time to pursue them, is not a prudent allocation of department's limited resources. 

On this point the article is wrongly informed and naïve.


Agree completely.

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2014, 09:48:51 pm »
This was more a case of Pantaleo following orders than it was of him using his own discretion.

For which he was promptly thrown under the bus...


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rangerrebew

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2014, 09:55:14 pm »
In my many, many years of working with severely emotionally impaired teens, I was involve in many restraints.  The most common thing out of their mouth when they hit the floor was "I can't breathe" to which we would reply the fact they can say that means they could breathe.  It is quite a common complaint by people who have been overpowered and is used to make the person restraining them  let go.

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2014, 09:57:09 pm »
In my many, many years of working with severely emotionally impaired teens, I was involve in many restraints.  The most common thing out of their mouth when they hit the floor was "I can't breathe" to which we would reply the fact they can say that means they could breathe.  It is quite a common complaint by people who have been overpowered and is used to make the person restraining them  let go.

I notice the media still refers to the move as a 'chokehold' when it was only a move to bring him to the ground.

This is how media subtly promotes the violent protests.

And this was Faux...


« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 09:58:17 pm by GourmetDan »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2014, 10:39:21 pm »
One thing I think will come out of all this attention: Our police and other law enforcement people need better training, better equipment, to scale their response perhaps more in favor of not taking life.

I saw the video of the 12 year old boy shot dead by police officers, and THAT ONE is not justifiable, in my opinion.

And in my county, we had my city shoot a teenage girl who was holding a knife (unjustified in my opinion) and officers in Fullerton beat a homeless, mentally ill man to death.

Because juries compare the officer's actions, to their training and policies, the Fullerton officers were found not guilty, although the county DA tried them vigorously.

It is the policies, training and equipment which need reform. They need more and better non-lethal options.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline massadvj

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2014, 11:09:51 pm »
I think the bigger issue is whether the police should have been so aggressive in enforcing a law that basically just says the offender refuses to pay New York City's "vig."

Eric Garner was busted 31 times for selling loosies.  Think about that: 31 times.  Who the hell is ordering the cops to be so aggressive against people for selling cigarettes, and why?  That's the more interesting story to me.  And yet, no enterprising reporters in NYC seem to want to ask.

The city is being run like the mafia.  It's a big reason why I simply don't go there anymore. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 11:14:47 pm by massadvj »

Offline olde north church

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2014, 11:15:00 pm »
I think the bigger issue is whether the police should have been so aggressive in enforcing a law that basically just says the offender refuses to pay New York City's "vig."

Eric Garner was busted 31 times for selling loosies.  Think about that: 31 times.  Who the hell is ordering the cops to be so aggressive against people for selling cigarettes, and why?  That's the more interesting story to me.  And yet, no enterprising reporters in NYC seem to want to ask.

The businessmen who know the police forces are their personal security forces.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out property crimes are treated as more important than personal crimes.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline speekinout

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2014, 01:47:25 am »
Eric Garner was busted 31 times for selling loosies.  Think about that: 31 times.  Who the hell is ordering the cops to be so aggressive against people for selling cigarettes, and why?  That's the more interesting story to me.  And yet, no enterprising reporters in NYC seem to want to ask.

DiBlasio was ordering that.

Are there any conservative reporters in NYC?

Offline massadvj

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2014, 02:33:08 am »
DiBlasio was ordering that.

Are there any conservative reporters in NYC?

The NY Daily News can be fairly conservative, ad they love to clobber the politicians.  So far, everyone seems to be playing the angle that Garner was killed because he was black, when the more likely case is he was killed for being an enterprising and resourceful man who was trying to make it without paying the "vig" to the political machine.

Offline speekinout

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2014, 02:46:59 am »
The NY Daily News can be fairly conservative, ad they love to clobber the politicians.  So far, everyone seems to be playing the angle that Garner was killed because he was black, when the more likely case is he was killed for being an enterprising and resourceful man who was trying to make it without paying the "vig" to the political machine.

That's a weird angle. And the assumption that Garner was "killed" is wrong to begin with. Garner died because he was in terrible physical shape and even the simple act of taking him down was enough to trigger a fatal reaction.
And he was a habitual criminal (never mind that his crime - selling cigarettes illegally - is a pretty petty thing). He was known for that; he'd been arrested multiple times; and the mayor and Chief of Police had decided to crack down on that particular crime because the cigarette tax is supposed to be a major source of city revenue.

What we really should be talking about is why we're spending so much money and effort on "crimes" of this caliber. The last time we tried anything so silly was called "Prohibition" and we kept plenty of police and criminals busy fighting each other until we came to our senses. Now we're doing the same thing over cigarettes? And it's only about taxes on the things? 

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2014, 03:00:42 am »
Another angle is he died due to his poor physical condition and health.

In other words, almost anybody else would not die from the hold the cop used on him.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline massadvj

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Re: What the Grand Jury Knew--and We Didn't--in the Eric Garner Case
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2014, 03:30:43 am »
That's a weird angle. And the assumption that Garner was "killed" is wrong to begin with. Garner died because he was in terrible physical shape and even the simple act of taking him down was enough to trigger a fatal reaction.
And he was a habitual criminal (never mind that his crime - selling cigarettes illegally - is a pretty petty thing). He was known for that; he'd been arrested multiple times; and the mayor and Chief of Police had decided to crack down on that particular crime because the cigarette tax is supposed to be a major source of city revenue.

What we really should be talking about is why we're spending so much money and effort on "crimes" of this caliber. The last time we tried anything so silly was called "Prohibition" and we kept plenty of police and criminals busy fighting each other until we came to our senses. Now we're doing the same thing over cigarettes? And it's only about taxes on the things?

I agree that "killed" was a poor choice of words.  Thanks for pointing out my flaws in rhetoric.  The point I was trying to make was that Garner was not targeted for being black.  He was targeted for taking advantage of the black market created by the city's onerous and regressive taxes.

To me "I can't breathe" is a metaphor for "your socialism is suffocating me to death."
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 04:31:09 am by massadvj »