Author Topic: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen  (Read 2287 times)

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Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« on: September 23, 2014, 04:19:54 pm »
http://www.nationalreview.com/node/388586/print

NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE         

SEPTEMBER 23, 2014 12:00 AM
Is It Ever Okay to Spank?
Why would anyone defend using violence to teach children right from wrong?
By Mona Charen

The image of Adrian Peterson’s son’s legs has ignited a welcome cultural conversation. This is unusual. Most of these contrived “conversations” are efforts to take one headline and shoehorn it into a narrative that liberals want to advance, usually about race and racism. Those “conversations” are never truthful.

But the discussion of a four-year-old boy’s wounds has elicited some brutally honest commentary.

Writing on CNN.com, Steven Holmes blasted what he regards as excessive tolerance for spanking and child abuse in the black community. He dispatches the “I was whipped and I turned out all right” excuse. Holmes cites the abundant research showing that “spanking inhibits the learning process . . . It leads to anger, depression, violence and alcohol and drug abuse. It breeds hostility toward authority . . . and spawns other antisocial behaviors.” Physical punishment, he continues “is associated with legions of sullen, angry, violence-prone boys . . . ”

Peterson advanced the “mean streets” argument. “I could have been one of those kids that was lost in the streets without the discipline instilled in me by my parents . . . ” Holmes replies: “This may have been true for Peterson. But what also could be true is that the streets may not have been so mean if they were not populated by so many kids who are angry at the world because, among other things, they were spanked.”

Physical punishment is almost as common among whites. Some conservatives defend spanking because they see critics as liberals who seek to undermine authority across the board. Doubtless, some are — and some liberal parenting approaches are enough to make you want to take a switch to the adult! (“Dylan, how would you feel if someone cut your fingers with scissors?”)

But to quote Mother Teresa on the subject of abortion, “Don’t resort to violence.” Of course there’s a difference between a swat on the bottom and a beating with a tree branch or electrical wire. But, frankly, why would anyone defend using violence to teach children right from wrong? We don’t do it with puppies and kittens anymore, for heaven’s sake.

Some research suggests that 66 percent of parents admit to striking their children, and 30 percent of those say they’ve spanked children as young as one year old. Picture a 1-year-old; just struggling to get to his feet; wobbling between the coffee table and the sofa. Is there no way, other than violence, to teach him not to pull the cat’s tail?

This is not to deny that kids can be extremely provoking, and that they are in dire need of limit setting. There is no harder job. When one of our sons was having behavior problems, we enrolled in a course for parents of children with autistic-spectrum disorders. We thought we had tried everything (except hitting of course). We hadn’t. Kids with this condition, we were told, don’t distinguish between good attention and bad attention. Acting out gets the notice they crave, even if it’s in the form of a reprimand or a time out.

One way to cope was to “catch them being good “ and then praise them lavishly. Their need for attention would be filled up with approval. Working toward rewards (tokens for clearing their place, making their beds, putting their shoes in the mud room) that could later be cashed in for prizes helped them plan for the future, delay gratification, and receive positive feedback. Did it work 100 percent of the time? Of course not. Did we sometimes resent having to establish these elaborate rituals for tasks that ought to be simple? Yes. But if we had hit the boy, his already fragile ego might never have recovered.

Studies have also shown that verbal abuse can be as damaging as physical violence. Children who are ridiculed or belittled by their parents, dismissed as “stupid” or “idiotic” just for doing childish things, are as prone to negative outcomes as those who are physically assaulted.

Some parents are abusive because they’re bad people. But many well-meaning parents may be harming their children in the misguided belief that hitting or insulting them instills important virtues, or at least does no harm. They might want to think again.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 04:34:10 pm »
My son turns 2 in a couple of weeks. When he is angry he can be very violent and will slap/punch/scratch people that he is angry at. I smacked him on the butt for doing that stuff once and after the shock wore off he broke down crying and I felt like the worst parent ever for hitting a not even 2 year old. I recognize that it can get the point across, and a lot of children are well behaved knowing that their parents aren't afraid to spank them, but I decided in that moment it wasn't for me. I felt like a huge hypocrite for using violence to show him that violence is not okay. Now I put him in the corner until he decides he wants to play nice again. When he decides he's done being mean he knows he has to apologize with a hug. It took a few times holding him there and forcing him to comply, but now he understands that if he's bad he goes in the corner.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 04:36:53 pm by Dex4974 »
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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2014, 04:37:43 pm »
It took a few times holding him there and forcing him to comply, but now he understands that if he's bad he goes in the corner.

Isn't it still violence to force someone to stay in a corner by holding them there?

Looks like you still used violence to 'solve' your problem...


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Offline Dexter

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 04:40:36 pm »
Isn't it still violence to force someone to stay in a corner by holding them there?

Looks like you still used violence to 'solve' your problem...

vi·o·lence
ˈvī(ə)ləns/
noun
noun: violence

    behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

I don't think what I did falls under this definition. It did not hurt him in any way; he just didn't want to listen at first because it was new and he didn't like it. He still doesn't like it, so I've created a reason to not be bad without him being afraid that I will hit him. It only took a few times forcing him to sit and putting him back in the corner when he tried to run off before he realized what the deal was. He's much more compliant now and I feel like it works a lot better.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 04:43:26 pm by Dex4974 »
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 04:43:21 pm »
vi·o·lence
ˈvī(ə)ləns/
noun
noun: violence

    behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

I don't think what I did falls under this definition. It did not hurt him in any way; he just didn't want to listen at first because it was new and he didn't like it. He still doesn't like it, so I've created a reason to not be bad without him being afraid that I will hit him.

But you did hurt him.  You forced him to do something that he didn't want to do.  The only reason he complies now is because he knows the threat of more violence is behind your insistence on that particular behavior.  He is avoiding your threat of violence by complying.

You may have settled on a definition that you feel better about, but he recognizes what's going on...


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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 04:44:46 pm »
But you did hurt him.  You forced him to do something that he didn't want to do.  The only reason he complies now is because he knows the threat of more violence is behind your insistence on that particular behavior.  He is avoiding your threat of violence by complying.

You may have settled on a definition that you feel better about, but he recognizes what's going on...

hurt
hərt/
verb

    1.
    cause physical pain or injury to.

Forcing him to sit in the corner is not hurting him. Also, even if it did hurt him, which it didn't, I have created a situation where the long term use of force/violence is not necessary.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 04:47:11 pm by Dex4974 »
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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 04:52:27 pm »
hurt
hərt/
verb

    1.
    cause physical pain or injury to.

Forcing him to sit in the corner is not hurting him. Also, even if it did hurt him, which it didn't, I have created a situation where the long term use of force/violence is not necessary.

Yes it is.  You used physical force to make him do something he didn't want to do and the only reason he complies now is because he wants to avoid that physical force.

You're just rationalizing your actual behavior so that you can keep your belief...


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Offline Dexter

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 04:59:17 pm »
Yes it is.  You used physical force to make him do something he didn't want to do and the only reason he complies now is because he wants to avoid that physical force.

You're just rationalizing your actual behavior so that you can keep your belief...

He experienced no pain in the process. I am not using pain as a motivator to be good. Force and hurt are not synonymous. As a parent it is my responsibility to keep him from doing the wrong things, and sometimes force is necessary for that. I don't feel that pain is necessary for that.
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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 05:07:15 pm »
He experienced no pain in the process. I am not using pain as a motivator to be good. Force and hurt are not synonymous. As a parent it is my responsibility to keep him from doing the wrong things, and sometimes force is necessary for that. I don't feel that pain is necessary for that.

I never said anything about pain.  The fact that you are trying to put words into my posts simply demonstrates how far you will go to rationalize your actual behavior versus your beliefs.

By forcing him to do what you want, you are still using violence to show him that violence is not OK...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2014, 05:11:21 pm »
I never said anything about pain.  The fact that you are trying to put words into my posts simply demonstrates how far you will go to rationalize your actual behavior versus your beliefs.

By forcing him to do what you want, you are still using violence to show him that violence is not OK...

vi·o·lence
ˈvī(ə)ləns/
noun
noun: violence

    behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.


hurt
hərt/
verb

    1.
    cause physical pain or injury to.

I am not using violence because force does not = violence. Violence is used with an intention to hurt, and hurt means to cause pain to. Saying I am using violence and hurting him (which you did say) is implying that I am causing him pain, which I am not. Your inability to understand words and their meanings is astounding.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 05:18:48 pm »
I am not using violence because force does not = violence. Violence is used with an intention to hurt, and hurt means to cause pain to. Saying I am using violence and hurting him (which you did say) is implying that I am causing him pain, which I am not. Your inability to understand words and their meanings is astounding.

You apparently didn't even read the article.  The article said that "Children who are ridiculed or belittled by their parents, dismissed as “stupid” or “idiotic” just for doing childish things, are as prone to negative outcomes as those who are physically assaulted."  That was just for using hurtful words.  If you don't think physical assault includes physically forcing someone to remain where you want to, then you are the one who is astoundingly unable to understand words and their meaning.

You are simply rationalizing your behavior versus what you express as being your beliefs, aka hypocrisy...

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 05:22:07 pm »
You apparently didn't even read the article.  The article said that "Children who are ridiculed or belittled by their parents, dismissed as “stupid” or “idiotic” just for doing childish things, are as prone to negative outcomes as those who are physically assaulted."  That was just for using hurtful words.  If you don't think physical assault includes physically forcing someone to remain where you want to, then you are the one who is astoundingly unable to understand words and their meaning.

You are simply rationalizing your behavior versus what you express as being your beliefs, aka hypocrisy...

I put the definitions right there and you are still defying the meaning of the words. Force is not synonymous with violence. An intention to hurt is required for something to be violent, and pain is required for something to hurt. You are either trolling or so incredibly intent on being cantankerous that reality doesn't matter to you. The point was for me to not hurt my son to get him to do what I want.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 05:27:27 pm by Dex4974 »
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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 05:25:55 pm »
LOL!

Dan....sometimes I think you just like being the Contrarian. 


...not that there's anything wrong with that!  (as Jerry Seinfeld would say)


Way to go, Dex.....'kick' his a$$.   Just don't used a switch and make him put the leaves in his mouth.  [/s] 

IMO, Dan is trying to use the same weak argument some use regarding waterboarding is extreme torture.   If no blood is spilled and/or no digits are compromised...it's not torture.  At least not in the classic sense.
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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 05:27:13 pm »
I put the definitions right there and you are still defying the meaning on the words. Force is not synonymous with violence. An intention to hurt is required for something to be violent, and pain is required for something to hurt. You are either trolling or so incredibly intent on being cantankerous that reality doesn't matter to you.

And I explained how you are rationalizing the reality of your behavior versus the fantasy of your expressed beliefs.

You are either trolling or so incredibly intent on justifying behavior that is inconsistent with your expressed beliefs that you will simply say absolutely anything to rationalize that behavior...





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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 05:28:15 pm »
And I explained how you are rationalizing the reality of your behavior versus the fantasy of your expressed beliefs.

You are either trolling or so incredibly intent on justifying behavior that is inconsistent with your expressed beliefs that you will simply say absolutely anything to rationalize that behavior...

Do you believe force = violence?

Do you recognize that to hurt somebody you must cause them pain?
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 05:30:26 pm »
Do you believe force = violence?

Do you recognize that to hurt somebody you must cause them pain?

The problem is your behavior versus your expressed beliefs.

That's where the problem lies...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 05:32:58 pm »
Back in the day, I knew these two Swedish gals Olga and Helga... huh...? wha...? ...Oh... never mind...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 06:30:37 pm by Lando Lincoln »
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 05:40:43 pm »
Dan....sometimes I think you just like being the Contrarian. 

Nah, it's more like the Robert Kennedy Jr thread we had yesterday.

People like to say things that are inconsistent with their actual behavior, rationalize it when they get called on it and then blame you if you don't accept their rationalization...


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Offline aligncare

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 06:16:38 pm »
When our three girls were toddlers we would threaten a spanking, but, when it was necessary to carry through with the threat, we gave the gentlest of swat on their diapered bottom. That seemed to scare them plenty.

However, beyond the toddler stage we never used physical punishment. Extra chores and taking stuff away was plenty of pain for my three girls.

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 07:58:47 pm »
I'm with Dan on this one. And Dex is picking his definitions.

Violence:

a :  exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse

I would bet that the child felt abused being forced to remain in a corner against his will.

Hurt:

a :  to cause emotional pain or anguish to : 
b :  to be detrimental to

Do you think the child, forced to sit in a corner against his will didn't feel anguish, or feel it was against his best interests?


Forcing a child to do something against his will is a form of violence. To me, this suggests that you can teach non violence with a threat of violence.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2014, 07:59:52 pm »
My son turns 2 in a couple of weeks. When he is angry he can be very violent and will slap/punch/scratch people that he is angry at. I smacked him on the butt for doing that stuff once and after the shock wore off he broke down crying and I felt like the worst parent ever for hitting a not even 2 year old. I recognize that it can get the point across, and a lot of children are well behaved knowing that their parents aren't afraid to spank them, but I decided in that moment it wasn't for me. I felt like a huge hypocrite for using violence to show him that violence is not okay. Now I put him in the corner until he decides he wants to play nice again. When he decides he's done being mean he knows he has to apologize with a hug. It took a few times holding him there and forcing him to comply, but now he understands that if he's bad he goes in the corner.

You don't have to spank to be the alpha dog.  It's more a question of posture and attitude.  If you want to see how to raise boys, watch the Dog Whisperer on the National Geographic Channel.  Just about everything he does to discipline dogs applies to child rearing as well.  In particular, Cesar Milan says that in order to be "balanced" a dog needs three things, in the following order:

1. exercise
2. discipline
3. love

Note that exercise comes first.  You have to let kids run and play and generally blow out all their energy.  A well exercised kid is rarely a discipline problem.  Also, most parents run into difficulty when they put love ahead of discipline and try to explain to the kid why they have to do what they do in the way of discipline.  It's better to simply do the thing -- take the toy away or whatever -- and let the kid scream it out than to explain and sound apologetic.  An authoritative parent does not need to explain.  A few times letting a tantrum go unrewarded will usually do the trick.  Once a kid realizes tantrums don't work, they stop soon enough.

I personally do not rule out spanking altogether.  It might be necessary on rare occasions.  I think I spanked my kid two or three times in her life, and I always made sure there was a trial of sorts first, just so everyone was in agreement as to the facts of the case.  When I did spank her I made a big production out of it and inflicted no significant physical pain. It looked and sounded really scary, though.

Finally, I'd recommend that if a parent does decide to use spanking in the arsenal of discipline tools, that he or she never spank with the bare hands.  Your child should never be afraid of your hands.  Use a paddle or something that has been set aside specifically for spanking and only spanking.

I have a pretty natural talent for keeping kids in line.  To this day I can shut a boisterous class up with a simple raise of an eyebrow.  I am a popular professor and for the most part my students feel I am very approachable.  But they also know where the line is in terms of acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior, and they rarely cross it with me.

In truth, I am a better professor than I was a father.  I was too much of a pushover as a father, though to hear my daughter tell it I was the devil incarnate.  But then, she grew up to be a liberal, so she is by definition delusional.

(And yes, my two year old grandson craps all over her and she is clueless as to how to stop it)
 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 08:12:09 pm by massadvj »

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2014, 08:42:46 pm »
We just talked with one of our (grown) kids about this issue....

We spanked them rarely, and only as a last resort with warning.  And we ALWAYS carried through when we made the threat.

He said that for him, the threat was enough.  He knew that if he continued his behavior he would be spanked, and since he didn't want to be, he stopped what he was doing.  One of our kids, a daughter, had worse behavior, but was unfazed by spanking, so sending her to her room was a far more successful disciplinary measure.  Each child is different..... and our four were as different as people can be!

They all turned out fine.  None thinks spanking is bad.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2014, 09:06:14 pm »
"Is It Ever OK to Spank?"

Oh yes... very much so.

It's not only OK, but  sometimes necessary.

And I've been a very, very bad boy.

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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2014, 09:51:09 pm »
"Is It Ever OK to Spank?"

Oh yes... very much so.

It's not only OK, but  sometimes necessary.

And I've been a very, very bad boy.



You are a BAD BAD BAD boy Luis!

 :nono:
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Re: Is It Ever Okay to Spank?...By Mona Charen
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2014, 12:55:08 am »
"Is It Ever OK to Spank?"

Oh yes... very much so.

It's not only OK, but  sometimes necessary.

And I've been a very, very bad boy.



Luis, I think that is the definitive answer to the question.  :silly: