Author Topic: I have a question for any Christian here.  (Read 10096 times)

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Offline Dexter

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I have a question for any Christian here.
« on: August 31, 2014, 02:04:41 pm »
So I want to preface all of this by saying I am agnostic. I even tend to lean a little more towards the side of there probably being a God. I am not a Christian, and I am going to ask some questions that some here might not like. Nonetheless they are questions that I've always wanted answered. If you're offended by non-Christians asking questions about Christianity, this is not the thread for you. My intention here is not to offend anybody, and I cannot emphasize this point enough. Anybody that starts spitting fire and getting upset at me will not get a response. This is a thread for intellectual discussion about religion.

One of the things that never seemed to make sense to me was God condemning people to eternal suffering in Hell for not accepting His teachings. Is ignorance really such a horrible crime as to deserve eternal damnation? I've found that non-Christians and even atheists can be moral people that live their lives doing the right thing despite not being Christians. Christianity teaches that God loves all people indiscriminately, and that God's forgiveness has no limits (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting something.) So why would He condemn an otherwise good person to hell just for getting religion wrong? It makes me think about the people I love, and whether or not I would make them suffer eternally over being ignorant about something that is important to me. The answer to that is a resounding no. If I, a mortal, couldn't bring myself to hurt somebody I love like that over such an insignificant crime, how could the all loving God do it? Am I capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Is there some other factor that I am not considering here? Is God's love for a person reliant on them recognizing Him? Eternal damnation for ignorance does not sound like love to me.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 03:06:12 pm by Dex4974 »
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Offline alicewonders

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2014, 02:36:02 pm »
I can only tell you my beliefs on the subject.  I'm a Christian and I believe I will have eternal life with my Lord and Creator.  I believe in the Bible, but I don't take every verse literally.  Being a young girl questioning why the Bible speaks of men being dominant over women, I prayed and came to the rationale that the Bible was written by men and in the perspective of those times.  So, I let my conscience be my guide on things like that.

The same for my belief that on Judgement Day, God will judge us by what is in our hearts.  To believe in God, you have to believe there is a greater power than you and you have to forego the great pride that you have anything without God. 

God is order, evil is chaos.  To see the order in the universe is to see the work of God.  When we have order in our hearts, we are at a place where we can strive to create more order in the world around us - and I think that is how we advance, as a species - beyond that of basic animalistic desires to that of building a world that is truly great. 

That is what God wants from us.  To achieve at our greatest potential and that is what he wants for the people he brings to live with him eternally.  I don't think our work is done after our soul leaves this earth and joins God.  I think we progress to a higher state of being, and who knows what that will be like.  I can't wait to find out!

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Offline Dexter

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2014, 02:41:21 pm »
I can only tell you my beliefs on the subject.  I'm a Christian and I believe I will have eternal life with my Lord and Creator.  I believe in the Bible, but I don't take every verse literally.  Being a young girl questioning why the Bible speaks of men being dominant over women, I prayed and came to the rationale that the Bible was written by men and in the perspective of those times.  So, I let my conscience be my guide on things like that.

The same for my belief that on Judgement Day, God will judge us by what is in our hearts.  To believe in God, you have to believe there is a greater power than you and you have to forego the great pride that you have anything without God. 

God is order, evil is chaos.  To see the order in the universe is to see the work of God.  When we have order in our hearts, we are at a place where we can strive to create more order in the world around us - and I think that is how we advance, as a species - beyond that of basic animalistic desires to that of building a world that is truly great. 

That is what God wants from us.  To achieve at our greatest potential and that is what he wants for the people he brings to live with him eternally.  I don't think our work is done after our soul leaves this earth and joins God.  I think we progress to a higher state of being, and who knows what that will be like.  I can't wait to find out!

Thank you for taking the time to post; your perspective is always welcome. Do you believe a nonbeliever with a good heart that strives to do good things in life has earned their place in Heaven after they die?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 02:41:52 pm by Dex4974 »
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Offline alicewonders

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2014, 02:46:02 pm »
Thank you for taking the time to post; your perspective is always welcome. Do you believe a nonbeliever with a good heart that strives to do good things in life has earned their place in Heaven after they die?

Yes, I do believe that.  God does know our hearts - he says he knew us before we were born.  To be a "good" person is to put others before yourself and that is what Jesus wants us to do. 
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Offline massadvj

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2014, 02:58:13 pm »

I am a fellow agnostic, but I was raised in Catholic schools, so I am familiar with Catholic doctrine.  I was always taught that a person who has not been exposed to the teachings of Christ is not subject to condemnation to hell.  It applies only to those who have had the opportunity to accept Christ and rejected Him.

Offline Dexter

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2014, 02:59:51 pm »
I am a fellow agnostic, but I was raised in Catholic schools, so I am familiar with Catholic doctrine.  I was always taught that a person who has not been exposed to the teachings of Christ is not subject to condemnation to hell.  It applies only to those who have had the opportunity to accept Christ and rejected Him.

I was referring to the latter honestly, but I can see how I should have worded that better. Maybe I should have said "willful ignorance."
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 03:01:04 pm by Dex4974 »
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Offline massadvj

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2014, 03:20:42 pm »
I was referring to the latter honestly, but I can see how I should have worded that better. Maybe I should have said "willful ignorance."

I think in the case of "willful ignorance" it would depend on the kind of life the person has led. 

Catholics believe in different scenarios other than just heaven and hell.  Heaven is the best possible outcome, and hell is the worst.  But there are others, including purgatory and limbo.  In fact, there is nothing in Catholicism that categorically dismisses reincarnation, and there are a few Catholic theologians who think people serve purgatories right here on earth, coming back time and again until they get it right.  Kind of like the movie "Groundhog Day."  This is very much a minority view within the church.  Most Catholics subscribe to the idea "one soul/one body."   But it is pretty much universal in Catholicism that there are other options beyond just heaven and hell.

In John 14:6 Christ says:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This makes it pretty clear that Christ is the only path to heaven.  But it by no means condemns everyone else to hell.

Offline mountaineer

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2014, 11:13:41 pm »
Thank you for taking the time to post; your perspective is always welcome. Do you believe a nonbeliever with a good heart that strives to do good things in life has earned their place in Heaven after they die?
Based on what I've read in Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1-10, I do not believe we can "earn" our way into Heaven through doing good things.  I'll provide two different translations/paraphrases  for your consideration.  You can determine which one is most understandable and, I hope, helpful in answering your question.

The Message Bible:
Quote
1 It wasn't so long ago that you were mired in that old stagnant life of sin.  2 You let the world, which doesn't know the first thing about living, tell you how to live. You filled your lungs with polluted unbelief, and then exhaled disobedience.  3 We all did it, all of us doing what we felt like doing, when we felt like doing it, all of us in the same boat. It's a wonder God didn't lose his temper and do away with the whole lot of us.  4 Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love,  5 he embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on his own, with no help from us!  6 Then he picked us up and set us down in highest heaven in company with Jesus, our Messiah.  7 Now God has us where he wants us, with all the time in this world and the next to shower grace and kindness upon us in Christ Jesus.  8 Saving is all his idea, and all his work. All we do is trust him enough to let him do it. It's God's gift from start to finish!  9 We don't play the major role. If we did, we'd probably go around bragging that we'd done the whole thing!  10 No, we neither make nor save ourselves. God does both the making and saving. He creates each of us by Christ Jesus to join him in the work he does, the good work he has gotten ready for us to do, work we had better be doing.

New International Version:
Quote
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,  2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.  3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.  4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,  5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.  6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,  7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.  8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--  9 not by works, so that no one can boast.   10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Online DCPatriot

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2014, 12:23:40 am »
I prefer to live by two Commandments   

1) Treat thy neighbor as thyself.

2) Due upon others as they do unto you.   But do it first.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2014, 12:35:33 am »
Based on what I've read in Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1-10, I do not believe we can "earn" our way into Heaven through doing good things.

Humanity insisted that there must be some way to live other than what God has required since the first two were created.

Doesn't look like that will change anytime soon...

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Offline xfreeper

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2014, 03:18:24 am »
why would a non believer care about heaven and hell? Why would they even be thinking about it?

Offline evadR

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2014, 04:29:39 am »
I believe in logic so therefore I believe it is illogical to think that there isn't a devine being much much much greater than us.
There are things about the Christian religion that keep me from being a true Christian but I try my best to live as a Christian.
I believe that much of The Bible is actually based on facts. Mysteries of The Bible is one of my favorite books and shows.
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Offline EC

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2014, 04:59:16 am »
So I want to preface all of this by saying I am agnostic. I even tend to lean a little more towards the side of there probably being a God. I am not a Christian, and I am going to ask some questions that some here might not like. Nonetheless they are questions that I've always wanted answered. If you're offended by non-Christians asking questions about Christianity, this is not the thread for you. My intention here is not to offend anybody, and I cannot emphasize this point enough. Anybody that starts spitting fire and getting upset at me will not get a response. This is a thread for intellectual discussion about religion.

One of the things that never seemed to make sense to me was God condemning people to eternal suffering in Hell for not accepting His teachings. Is ignorance really such a horrible crime as to deserve eternal damnation? I've found that non-Christians and even atheists can be moral people that live their lives doing the right thing despite not being Christians. Christianity teaches that God loves all people indiscriminately, and that God's forgiveness has no limits (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting something.) So why would He condemn an otherwise good person to hell just for getting religion wrong? It makes me think about the people I love, and whether or not I would make them suffer eternally over being ignorant about something that is important to me. The answer to that is a resounding no. If I, a mortal, couldn't bring myself to hurt somebody I love like that over such an insignificant crime, how could the all loving God do it? Am I capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Is there some other factor that I am not considering here? Is God's love for a person reliant on them recognizing Him? Eternal damnation for ignorance does not sound like love to me.

He wouldn't. If you do something good, you are acting in God's name, even if you don't know it. What matters is he knows yours.

Look - I'm Catholic. We have a mini hell (purgatory) where you pay for bleep up before walking through the Gates. But even Hell itself is not eternal. The Lord knows his own. Wants all of us to join him. Think of hell as an exceptionally harsh lesson.
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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2014, 05:23:28 am »
This is from the LDS point of view of the Ten Commandments



On Mount Sinai, the Lord gave a law for Moses to convey to the house of Israel. Engraved on stone tablets, the Ten Commandments spelled out some fundamental principles by which God’s people should conduct their personal and spiritual lives as well as their dealings with one another. We have record of these principles in Exodus chapter 20.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or Mormons) continue to abide by the Ten Commandments. They understand that these basic guidelines form a strong foundation for society as well as for one’s personal life. A candidate for baptism in the Mormon Church must declare in a private interview that he or she believes in and observes certain things, including the Ten Commandments.

Mormon Moses1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Beyond our merely abstaining from the worship of pagan (false) gods, the Lord forbids that we displace Him by loving other things or people more than Him and His commandments. Mormons strive to put God always first in their lives, keeping in check their desires regarding financial security, recreation, education, friendships, and even family relations. One example of this is the practice of Mormon males’ leaving on two-year missions to preach the gospel at the age of 19. Many postpone schooling and even sacrifice scholarships in order to serve the Lord first. Another example is the fact that many people who have become convinced to join the Mormon Church through the influence of the Holy Ghost do so despite being disowned by parents and cast out from their native societies. Again, such Mormons see the importance of putting God first; they recognize that even Jesus declared that His gospel causes division (Luke 12:51-53).

2 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image . . . Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them . . . .Idols come in many forms. The Egyptians and many other ancient societies fashioned statues and other pieces of art which they worshiped as deity. Some religions today have icons and other portrayals of historical figures, before which adherents light candles, kneel, and pray. Other religions include the practice of ancestor worship. Modern societies with virtually no religion also observe a kind of idolatry in the shape of materialism-the love of worldly goods and luxuries. Little room is left for the true Lord when people are so preoccupied with various idols.

3 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. Faithful Mormons are strict in not using careless exclamations that are so very common in the world, such as, “Oh, my Lord!” and, “Oh, God!” The only reason this author chose to actually write out these exclamations-after a great deal of trepidation-was to ensure that all readers will understand exactly what is in question. Let it be known that such phrases are not an expression of faith, but are a display of great disrespect for God. This commandment has a second meaning.  By using the name of God or the Savior, we are invoking their power.  To do so in meaningless expression is to use their names uselessly, or in vain.

4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Please refer to this website’s detailed article on the Sabbath.

5 Honour thy father and thy mother . . . .Family relationships are continually emphasized in the Mormon Church (see our article on families). Even when a non-Mormon parent has disowned a child for joining the Church, the child is encouraged to do everything possible to maintain positive and respectful relations with the parent, show a good example and, with a spirit of gratitude, remember all the good things that the parent taught, even if in the end that parent does not embrace what Mormons believe to be the fulness of the gospel. Furthermore, Mormons show respect and consideration not just for their immediate parents but also for grandparents and more distant ancestors. They trace their genealogy (family trees), learning all they can about their forebears and even doing special work for them by proxy in Mormon temples.

6 Thou shalt not kill. Mormons do not interpret this commandment to mean that eating meat is forbidden; rather, they believe that animals are given by God for the use of man, but are to be used wisely and sparingly. As far as killing other humans, whom Mormons believe are nothing less than brothers and sisters under God, the law is strict with but few exceptions: capital punishment, warfare against an enemy which threatens our liberty or families, and the like.

7 Thou shalt not commit adultery. Please refer to this website’s detailed article on chastity.

8 Thou shalt not steal. Mormons understand that stealing may include such dishonest practices as purchasing pirated music and movies, riding on a bus without a ticket, not working hard for one’s wages, lying on an income tax return, and others. Mormons try to rise above the worldly habit of justifying little sins, and cutting corners in keeping the commandments. (On the other hand, they strive to keep a healthy and wise balance by not obeying the “letter of the law” so fanatically or sanctimoniously that they miss out on the “spirit of the law.”)

9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Besides avoiding the fabrication of stories in an effort to get others in trouble or to conceal our own faults, members of the Mormon Church also are taught to avoid gossip and backbiting, which can be very destructive to the speaker, the hearer, and the victim. Even if a person has truly done something wrong, there are times when no comment is needed and other times when the act should be reported to the proper authority-but still not to the neighborhood. The world finds great pleasure in “dirty laundry,” and the news and popular television programs are driven by it. Mormons are taught to be very cautious about engaging in such things.

10 Thou shalt not covet . . . .Jealousy is fueled by pride, which is an attitude where people believe that they are more deserving of possessing something owned by another. Envy and pride lead to so much strife, neglect, and abuse between people. They lead to self-justification, thievery, adultery, murder . . . in all, a complete abandonment of God’s commandments, because pride eventually puts us at odds even with Him. The Book of Mormon is very powerful in describing two distinct nations that were obliterated because of pride, and this after they had enjoyed so many blessings from the Lord because of earlier obedience to the gospel of Christ.

The Ten Commandments are a wonderful means to individual and societal happiness. Mormons stand firm in declaring that the Lord has never rescinded them. Observance of these basic laws is actually more imperative in these, the latter days, than ever before.

Offline EC

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2014, 06:46:45 am »
Total side note: Trigger!!! You well my friend?
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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2014, 09:20:34 am »
Total side note: Trigger!!! You well my friend?

I am doing fine. I just received my bill from the medical procedures, doctor visits and medications and my normal insurance only covered part of it. So I had liquidate all of my trips in order pay of it. Obamacare has raised rates across the board to the point its not affordable.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 09:24:18 am by Trigger »

Offline Dexter

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2014, 01:39:12 pm »
I guess I wanted to lead into somewhat what Alice was talking about earlier. I wanted to know how many believe that human interpretation of God's exact intentions may not have not been perfect considering the time period. I believe that if God did exist in the Christian sense He would have a much more mild approach to the universe than the Bible seems to indicate. One of the other things I kind of disagree with is God's apparent obsession with humans in particular. As many of you may know, I believe the possibility of extraterrestrial life is an inevitability in the vast expanses of the universe. I believe we are just one more species among countless billions. I don't think God would focus on just one species, us. I think that thought process is kind of self important. Maybe when we get to Heaven we'll meet all kind of weird looking creatures.  :pondering:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 01:42:28 pm by Dex4974 »
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Offline Dexter

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2014, 01:40:17 pm »
why would a non believer care about heaven and hell? Why would they even be thinking about it?

I have always had a fascination with seeing the world from the perspective of other people, even if I don't see it that way.
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Offline EC

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2014, 01:47:29 pm »
I am doing fine. I just received my bill from the medical procedures, doctor visits and medications and my normal insurance only covered part of it. So I had liquidate all of my trips in order pay of it. Obamacare has raised rates across the board to the point its not affordable.

That blows.  **nononono*

Still, You are alive and in one piece, that's a plus!
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Offline alicewonders

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2014, 01:52:28 pm »
I guess I wanted to lead into somewhat what Alice was talking about earlier. I wanted to know how many believe that human interpretation of God's exact intentions may not have not been perfect considering the time period. I believe that if God did exist in the Christian sense He would have a much more mild approach to the universe than the Bible seems to indicate. One of the other things I kind of disagree with is God's apparent obsession with humans in particular. As many of you may know, I believe the possibility of extraterrestrial life is an inevitability in the vast expanses of the universe. I believe we are just one more species among countless billions. I don't think God would focus on just one species, us. I think that thought process is kind of self important. Maybe when we get to Heaven we'll meet all kind of weird looking creatures.  :pondering:

I find it hard to believe that we are the only intelligent life forms in the universe.  What I'm going to say now will cause a lot of disagreement with me - but I'm going to state MY opinion and I don't really care to argue about it:

The Bible does say that when God created us he said, "Let us create man in OUR own image".

So I believe that the form we are as humans is in the image of God. 

But, it wouldn't shake my faith not one little bit to find out that our universe was just part of a larger galaxy of universes - maybe even each with their own God.   
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Offline EC

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2014, 02:02:38 pm »
I guess I wanted to lead into somewhat what Alice was talking about earlier. I wanted to know how many believe that human interpretation of God's exact intentions may not have not been perfect considering the time period. I believe that if God did exist in the Christian sense He would have a much more mild approach to the universe than the Bible seems to indicate. One of the other things I kind of disagree with is God's apparent obsession with humans in particular. As many of you may know, I believe the possibility of extraterrestrial life is an inevitability in the vast expanses of the universe. I believe we are just one more species among countless billions. I don't think God would focus on just one species, us. I think that thought process is kind of self important. Maybe when we get to Heaven we'll meet all kind of weird looking creatures.  :pondering:

Tricky. You are asking eminently fallible beings to second guess the one infallible one. Still - He hates a coward, so lets take a swing at it.

God created everything. That is right there in the start of the book we got given. No where does it say that we are His only concern, rather the opposite. He thinks about everything and everyone. "Not a sparrow shall fall" comes to mind. If he can go to that much detail on one fairly insignificant planet, why not on others as well? He made a rather large playground for us to romp in. Only makes sense that he made us some playmates somewhere.
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Offline EC

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2014, 02:10:26 pm »
I find it hard to believe that we are the only intelligent life forms in the universe.  What I'm going to say now will cause a lot of disagreement with me - but I'm going to state MY opinion and I don't really care to argue about it:

The Bible does say that when God created us he said, "Let us create man in OUR own image".

So I believe that the form we are as humans is in the image of God. 

But, it wouldn't shake my faith not one little bit to find out that our universe was just part of a larger galaxy of universes - maybe even each with their own God.

We get to the image bit.  :laugh:

I don't go much for form. We are created in our Father image. It's what is between the ears though, not physical shape. Our capacity for empathy and love.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2014, 02:15:30 pm »
But, it wouldn't shake my faith not one little bit to find out that our universe was just part of a larger galaxy of universes - maybe even each with their own God.

That's a pretty interesting idea to me because I'm inclined to believe what a lot of scientists are starting to believe, which is that we are probably not the only universe in existence, and that there may be many countless billions of other universes. I think the reason a lot of scientists are probably starting to believe that is they can't think of another logical explanation for the Big Bang and the creation of our universe. I know a lot of people would then come to the conclusion "Well, it must be God" yes, but the way I see it is even God appears to follow the physical rules He put in place for our universe. Finding out there were in fact other universes would only convince me even more that God exists.
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Online DCPatriot

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2014, 02:16:32 pm »
Perhaps God's real interest in mankind is in the species itself?   Not the individual life.

While I certainly do believe in the power of prayers, I'm not naive enough to know for example, that should Adam and Trigger been citizens of Uganda and not the USA, things may not have turned out the way they did.

Why does a loving God allow little children to be butchered over their belief system?  Or their 'bad luck' to be born to a minority clan?

Why does a priest say that a child's death could be part of God's larger plan for the family and parents?  He would actually allow that carnage to teach a broader lesson?

Let me be clear that I do find comfort and peace in praying to a higher power.  But sometimes I wonder if that's tantamount to taking deep breaths to stop a pounding heart...or quiet an adrenaline rush.

At the risk of being ridiculed, I do lean toward a POV that man is the result of intelligent design.  But 'that' intelligence is also mortal.

'They' return every now and then...perhaps thousands of years in-between.  If they don't like what they see...they wreck the place and start over...and keep on until WE get it right.   

In that sense, living on earth is our own purgatory/limbo.  Or hell.
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Offline alicewonders

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Re: I have a question for any Christian here.
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2014, 02:18:31 pm »
We get to the image bit.  :laugh:

I don't go much for form. We are created in our Father image. It's what is between the ears though, not physical shape. Our capacity for empathy and love.

Very good point.  It's our soul that makes us.   

If we could communicate by mental telepathy - our form wouldn't matter much - and I believe it is possible to do so.  There is so much we don't know, we're just infants on our journey to realization.     
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