Author Topic: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship  (Read 33331 times)

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Online DCPatriot

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #150 on: May 07, 2014, 12:49:47 pm »
What specific services are you speaking about other than Hospital emergency room access?  Generally speaking, illegal aliens do not have access to Medicaid, SSi, or food stamps.  Anchor babies are a completely different issue, however.

LOL!   "Food Stamps"?   In Montgomery County, Maryland they certainly do.  Also, rent vouchers, driver's licenses and medical care.

It must be seen to be believed....you cannot comprehend how much of a minority Caucasians are. 

In more than one zipcode, you can go hours without even SEEING one. 

I'm afraid Maryland has socialism down to a science.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #151 on: May 07, 2014, 12:54:19 pm »
What specific services are you speaking about other than Hospital emergency room access?  Generally speaking, illegal aliens do not have access to Medicaid, SSi, or food stamps.  Anchor babies are a completely different issue, however.

Illegal aliens can't be denied schooling. That's not just for anchor babies, but for children who came here illegally with their parents. The kids probably qualify for free school lunch programs because the law says that you can't deny a child a school lunch based on their parent's legal status. In fact, I don't think that a school can ask a parent what their legal status is.
 
You can't deny them services from first responders because they respond to situations regardless of the legal status of the individual in that situation.

They don't need Medicaid because they can't be denied service at an ER, which for all intent and purposes is the same as having Medicaid.

Otherwise, and as you pointed out, they are denied public services already, and yet they don't leave.

Funny thing is that a significant majority of them pay into Social Security and again (as you pointed out), they derive no benefits from it. They pay all other applicable taxes general taxes (the taxes we all pay beyond income and SS taxes) which are used to fund Federal, State and local programs that they draw no benefits from.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #152 on: May 07, 2014, 12:55:04 pm »
LOL!   "Food Stamps"?   In Montgomery County, Maryland they certainly do.  Also, rent vouchers, driver's licenses and medical care.

It must be seen to be believed....you cannot comprehend how much of a minority Caucasians are. 

In more than one zipcode, you can go hours without even SEEING one.

I'm afraid Maryland has socialism down to a science.

Or at least one that still has his wallet.
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Offline MBB1984

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #153 on: May 07, 2014, 01:07:27 pm »
Illegal aliens can't be denied schooling. That's not just for anchor babies, but for children who came here illegally with their parents. The kids probably qualify for free school lunch programs because the law says that you can't deny a child a school lunch based on their parent's legal status. In fact, I don't think that a school can ask a parent what their legal status is.
 
You can't deny them services from first responders because they respond to situations regardless of the legal status of the individual in that situation.

They don't need Medicaid because they can't be denied service at an ER, which for all intent and purposes is the same as having Medicaid.

Otherwise, and as you pointed out, they are denied public services already, and yet they don't leave.

Funny thing is that a significant majority of them pay into Social Security and again (as you pointed out), they derive no benefits from it. They pay all other applicable taxes general taxes (the taxes we all pay beyond income and SS taxes) which are used to fund Federal, State and local programs that they draw no benefits from.

Medicaid is much more expansive than mere emergency room access and covers an extensive variety of procedures and drugs.  You are correct that the illegal aliens pay payroll taxes if the employer deducts it from their income (many are paid under the table in cash and pay nothing).  However, even if withheld they rarely pay any other taxes, primarily due to their low incomes and due to the  child tax credit which can be a credit of $1,000 per child.  If the illegal has several children he or she will receive considerably MORE from the government than the trifle amount they pay in payroll taxes. Approximately five billion dollars was given to illegal immigrants last year.   Due to the child tax credit, the IRS has essentially become a welfare program.   


Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #154 on: May 07, 2014, 01:35:22 pm »
Medicaid is much more expansive than mere emergency room access and covers an extensive variety of procedures and drugs.  You are correct that the illegal aliens pay payroll taxes if the employer deducts it from their income (many are paid under the table in cash and play nothing).  However, even if withheld they rarely pay any other taxes, primarily due to their low incomes and due to the  child tax credit which can be a credit of $1,000 per child.  If the illegal has several children he or she will receive considerably MORE from the government than the trifle amount they pay in payroll taxes. Approximately five billion dollars was given to illegal immigrants last year.   Due to the child tax credit, the IRS has essentially become a welfare program.

How do illegals manage NOT to pay taxes on gas?

How do they avoid paying taxes on shirts, shoes, cigarettes, prepared meals at Taco Bell (I know... that's racist), tickets for The Amazing Spiderman 2, etc?

If they pay rent, they're paying the owner's real estate taxes.

How do they avoid paying tolls on tolled highways.

The revealing thing about your post is the lack of understanding of just how many taxes we actually all pay.

The five billion given to illegal aliens last year is more than covered by the monies that the Federal government deposits in the IRS's earnings suspense file yearly.

Google that. 
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #155 on: May 07, 2014, 03:20:43 pm »
Luis - not sure if you caught my modified post, but everyone called my friend Geno.  He'd like that salute!
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #156 on: May 07, 2014, 03:42:18 pm »
Oh my. I am moved - deeply. Everyone called him Geno - short for Eugenio.  When he lived in the States, he lived in Coral Gables and he adored his parents who lived nearby.  He did not realize he had a son until after the boy had grown to adulthood.  They bonded immediately.

I met him in Medellin, Colombia and we became friends immediately.  He was handsome, charismatic and so damn funny.  Short of George Clooney, I have never seen anyone with so many beautiful women on his arm.  He called them "vampires".  I spent 13 months in Trinidad with him and we had total trust in one another.  Spent a lot of time elsewhere with him but we had the most fun together in Colombia and Barbados.  So many stories... they would sound like fiction if I told them all. 

He and I once went to a party in Bogota with Rick James.  Yes, that Rick James.  And that was the beginning.  I have never known anyone so alive.  Ever.

Thank you Luis.  Sincerely.

That's quite a moving story Lando, and I'm truly sorry for the loss of your friend.  Sounds like you might have a few more such stories of him you'll share from time to time.  A Hemingway type of personality?
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #157 on: May 07, 2014, 03:52:21 pm »
A Hemingway type of personality?

You know...?  I'm surprised I never quite had that perspective.  But yes... his sense of adventure was always intense but then, he had those lows.  Very apt analogy.  Thanks for suggesting it.

But, oh my... his hatred for Castro was a hissing, visceral, emotional, deep-in-the-soul hatred.
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #158 on: May 07, 2014, 04:05:17 pm »
Luis - not sure if you caught my modified post, but everyone called my friend Geno.  He'd like that salute!

I caught it.

In fact, knowing that he lived in Coral Gables makes me think that he probably knew the quintessential Cuban coffee window/political soap box.

It's just outside of the Gables and every politician looking to secure the Cuban vote goes there.

It's called Versailles.

Bet you that he drank coffee there.

This is what it looks like on any typical afternoon.

   

Here's one of the many familiar faces that have paid homage at the Versailles window over the years.


Geno knew that place well I bet.

Quote
For 40 years, Versailles has been a landmark in the Miami community, and its flagship location in the heart of Little Havana has become Miami’s unofficial town center and one of the most popular tourist attractions in the city. The restaurant is famous not only for its delicious Cuban food, but also for the important clientele that visits while in the area from U.S. Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush to major celebrities and movie stars, the famous have always made Versailles a must-stop in Miami.

“We are proud to share this prestigious award with our agency, República, as they executed the vision we had for this special milestone and brought to life in a very special way,” said Nicole Valls, vice president of Valls Group. “It’s humbling for our family to witness what started as a small restaurant, gain global praise and a solid reputation as “The World’s Most Famous Cuban Restaurant.™”

It won't be today, but it will be soon. I'll go there and a coffee and hate Fidel with Geno in mind.
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #159 on: May 07, 2014, 05:41:43 pm »
I'll go there and a coffee and hate Fidel with Geno in mind.

Nice!
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Offline evadR

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #160 on: May 07, 2014, 05:54:04 pm »
"I'm afraid Maryland has socialism down to a science."

Maryland has communism down to a science.

They've chased out big business and high income earners and now are an oasis for LIVs, freeloaders and misfits.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #161 on: May 08, 2014, 03:31:02 am »
Nice!

Not the place in Little Havana, but populated with a notoriously Castro-hating crowd.

I downed one for your friend today.


Geno!
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #162 on: May 08, 2014, 11:36:53 am »
Geno! Salute!

(Thank you Luis!)
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Offline MBB1984

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #163 on: May 08, 2014, 12:54:08 pm »
How do illegals manage NOT to pay taxes on gas?

How do they avoid paying taxes on shirts, shoes, cigarettes, prepared meals at Taco Bell (I know... that's racist), tickets for The Amazing Spiderman 2, etc?

If they pay rent, they're paying the owner's real estate taxes.

How do they avoid paying tolls on tolled highways.

The revealing thing about your post is the lack of understanding of just how many taxes we actually all pay.

The five billion given to illegal aliens last year is more than covered by the monies that the Federal government deposits in the IRS's earnings suspense file yearly.

Google that.

Unlawful immigrants do pay some gas taxes and tolls.  However, they also contribute to their wear and destruction.  They create the necessity for new roads. Unlawful immigrants pay some sales, use and property taxes.  But, they also create a cost for teachers, translators and new schools.  At a cost of $12,300 per pupil per year, these services cost US taxpayers plenty.  According to a study by Robert Rector and Jason Richwine, PhD, In 2010 the average unlawful immigrant household received around $24,721 in government benefits and services while paying some $10,334 in taxes.  This generated an average annual fiscal deficit of $14,387 per household.  This cost had to be borne by U.S. taxpayers.  Amnesty would provide unlawful households with access to over 80 means-tested welfare programs, Obamacare, Social Security and Medicare.  The fiscal deficit for each household would soar.

 It is true that unlawful immigrants pay FICA taxes if withheld by their employer, but with average earnings of $24,800 per year, the typical unlawful immigrant will pay only about $3,700 in FICA taxes, including the match by their employer.   If amnesty is granted, that individual is likely to draw more than $3,00 in Social Security and Medicare for every dollar in FICA taxes he paid.  If the unlawful immigrant has three children, he/she will immediately receive $3,000 back from the federal government in child tax credits   Currently, the unlawful immigrant household receives $2.40 in benefits and services for each dollar paid in taxes.   The reveling portion of your post is your apparent failure to understand how much government costs and the considerable deficit caused by unlawful immigrants.  Our nation does not need any more unlawful net tax consumers.

Offline evadR

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #164 on: May 08, 2014, 01:01:19 pm »
Unlawful immigrants do pay some gas taxes and tolls.  However, they also contribute to their wear and destruction.  They create the necessity for new roads. Unlawful immigrants pay some sales, use and property taxes.  But, they also create a cost for teachers, translators and new schools.  At a cost of $12,300 per pupil per year, these services cost US taxpayers plenty.  According to a study by Robert Rector and Jason Richwine, PhD, In 2010 the average unlawful immigrant household received around $24,721 in government benefits and services while paying some $10,334 in taxes.  This generated an average annual fiscal deficit of $14,387 per household.  This cost had to be borne by U.S. taxpayers.  Amnesty would provide unlawful households with access to over 80 means-tested welfare programs, Obamacare, Social Security and Medicare.  The fiscal deficit for each household would soar.

 It is true that unlawful immigrants pay FICA taxes if withheld by their employer, but with average earnings of $24,800 per year, the typical unlawful immigrant will pay only about $3,700 in FICA taxes, including the match by their employer.   If amnesty is granted, that individual is likely to draw more than $3,00 in Social Security and Medicare for every dollar in FICA taxes he paid.  If the unlawful immigrant has three children, he/she will immediately receive $3,000 back from the federal government in child tax credits   Currently, the unlawful immigrant household receives $2.40 in benefits and services for each dollar paid in taxes.   The reveling portion of your post is your apparent failure to understand how much government costs and the considerable deficit caused by unlawful immigrants.  Our nation does not need any more unlawful net tax consumers.
Excellent post.

Do you have a link for this study?

According to a study by Robert Rector and Jason Richwine, PhD, In 2010
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #165 on: May 08, 2014, 01:59:35 pm »
Unlawful immigrants do pay some gas taxes and tolls.  However, they also contribute to their wear and destruction.  They create the necessity for new roads. Unlawful immigrants pay some sales, use and property taxes.  But, they also create a cost for teachers, translators and new schools.  At a cost of $12,300 per pupil per year, these services cost US taxpayers plenty.  According to a study by Robert Rector and Jason Richwine, PhD, In 2010 the average unlawful immigrant household received around $24,721 in government benefits and services while paying some $10,334 in taxes.  This generated an average annual fiscal deficit of $14,387 per household.  This cost had to be borne by U.S. taxpayers.  Amnesty would provide unlawful households with access to over 80 means-tested welfare programs, Obamacare, Social Security and Medicare.  The fiscal deficit for each household would soar.

 It is true that unlawful immigrants pay FICA taxes if withheld by their employer, but with average earnings of $24,800 per year, the typical unlawful immigrant will pay only about $3,700 in FICA taxes, including the match by their employer.   If amnesty is granted, that individual is likely to draw more than $3,00 in Social Security and Medicare for every dollar in FICA taxes he paid.  If the unlawful immigrant has three children, he/she will immediately receive $3,000 back from the federal government in child tax credits   Currently, the unlawful immigrant household receives $2.40 in benefits and services for each dollar paid in taxes.   The reveling portion of your post is your apparent failure to understand how much government costs and the considerable deficit caused by unlawful immigrants.  Our nation does not need any more unlawful net tax consumers.

They pay taxes on every drop of gas they use; there's no way to avoid that.

They pay taxes on every taxable item they purchase anywhere. There's no tax exempt status for being an illegal immigrant.

I have a little bit of a background in accounting, and I know that no ledger is properly filled when in only contains credits. That's what your argument is... an unbalanced ledger entry made up solely of credits.

Let me try and balance that spreadsheet for you.

Your previous post put the cost of illegal immigrants at roughly five billion dollars per year. The IRS's Earning Suspense File is growing at a rate of $41 billion a year since 1990, four years after the Reagan amnesty. That file is driven by taxes paid into the SSA by illegal immigrants using bad Social Security numbers. Couple that with every dollar in taxes they pay that they can't avoid paying, and calculate how many people are employed by the Walmarts running on the buying power of 11 million illegal aliens and you realize (if you keep an open mind on the subject) that they don't cost the government as much as the government benefits financially from their presence, and THAT is why government is so recalcitrant toward controlling their entry and continued presence here.

The costs of the things that you list as being problems with illegal aliens, are DWARFED by the same costs of the same benefits received by American citizens on the dole. For every single illegal alien sucking from the government teat, there are 4 citizens doing the same.

To me, and in all the years that I've spent arguing this issue, every time someone like you makes the "negative financial impact of illegal immigrants" argument, it comes right back to two points...

  • the reason that they're here is because government inaction let them in, and government inaction is what sustains their continued stay. The reason for the inaction by government is that they provide financial benefits TO the government.
  • The problem with the "negative financial impact of illegal aliens" argument is that in actuality illustrates a problem with our society and our government, since all those costs ONLY exist because the programs were created by government. In other words, and if we're to believe every single other conservative talking point on our entitlement society, illegal aliens are just ONE of the SYMPTOMS of the problem that is a government-crafted entitlement society.

We can't logically make both the following arguments, repeatedly made by conservatives:

  • American blacks are enslaved and victimized by the benefits they receive stemming from a runaway system of government entitlements.
  • Illegal aliens are vile abusers and victimize America by way of the benefits they receive from a runaway system of government entitlements.

The problem is the system, not the people who take advantage of it.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 02:15:14 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #166 on: May 08, 2014, 02:09:32 pm »
The problem is the system, not the people who take advantage of it.

Very true.  We believe in self-interest, don't we?  People who act in their self-interest to take advantage of a system that is beyond their control are just doing what comes naturally.  It is as true for fat cats who buy off politicians as it is for immigrants.

It is the reason why we should limit government power, have very few rules, and enforce vigorously those that few that we do have.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #167 on: May 08, 2014, 02:14:47 pm »
Very true.  We believe in self-interest, don't we?  People who act in their self-interest to take advantage of a system that is beyond their control are just doing what comes naturally.  It is as true for fat cats who buy off politicians as it is for immigrants.

It is the reason why we should limit government power, have very few rules, and enforce vigorously those that few that we do have.

Hear, hear!
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline evadR

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #168 on: May 08, 2014, 08:47:45 pm »
We're supposed to also believe in the rule of law.

The Benghazi Witch was right. I think she should use her infamous statement as a campaign slogan.
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Offline Howie66

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #169 on: May 09, 2014, 12:38:16 pm »
The bottom line is simple.

NO AMNESTY.

NOT NOW.

NOT EVER.

I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery.  But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes:  If you bleep with me, I'll kill you all.

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders (Note: Mattis did NOT say "BLEEP". He threw the F Bomb)

I didn't enlist in the Corps just to watch my country become a Third World Communist Shit-hole. Don't know anyone who did.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #170 on: May 09, 2014, 01:02:33 pm »
My personal view is that there should be amnesty but no path to citizenship or eligibility for public benefits.  It is not an issue I regard as critical at this point because I am not all that uncomfortable with the laws we have now.  I do think it would be monumentally stupid for the GOP to deal with this issue at this juncture.

Offline evadR

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #171 on: May 09, 2014, 01:04:05 pm »
The bottom line is simple.

NO AMNESTY.

NOT NOW.

NOT EVER.
I have a slogan for the pubbies that have the nads to use it...

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Offline Howie66

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #172 on: May 09, 2014, 01:27:20 pm »
My personal view is that there should be amnesty but no path to citizenship or eligibility for public benefits.  It is not an issue I regard as critical at this point because I am not all that uncomfortable with the laws we have now.  I do think it would be monumentally stupid for the GOP to deal with this issue at this juncture.

I believe that rewarding lawbreakers in the name of political expediency is not only monumentally stupid, it is morally wrong.

I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery.  But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes:  If you bleep with me, I'll kill you all.

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders (Note: Mattis did NOT say "BLEEP". He threw the F Bomb)

I didn't enlist in the Corps just to watch my country become a Third World Communist Shit-hole. Don't know anyone who did.

Offline Howie66

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #173 on: May 09, 2014, 01:27:44 pm »
I have a slogan for the pubbies that have the nads to use it...

"NO MORE LUCY AND THE FOOTBALL"

 :amen:
I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery.  But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes:  If you bleep with me, I'll kill you all.

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders (Note: Mattis did NOT say "BLEEP". He threw the F Bomb)

I didn't enlist in the Corps just to watch my country become a Third World Communist Shit-hole. Don't know anyone who did.

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #174 on: May 09, 2014, 02:19:02 pm »
I believe that rewarding lawbreakers in the name of political expediency is not only monumentally stupid, it is morally wrong.

Isn't that what plea bargain arrangements do?  And that comes from every type of crime from murder to rape to robbery, etc.  They're offered to make life easier for the prosecution and offer a deal for a guilty plea.  In the immigration arena, a plea bargain would mean the illegal had to turn himself in, pay fines, get in line and be working.  I'm not sure I see a lot of difference except that the illegal couldn't have been charged with a serious felony unlike those legally here.

According to one report, 97% of federal and 94% of state cases end in plea deals that result in lesser charges and/or lesser sentences.  That would encompass some pretty heinous crimes.
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