Canada Has Death Panels And that’s a good thing. (Liberals Now Cheer For What They Once Denied Existed)

[ABX]

Last week Canada’s Supreme Court ruled that doctors could not unilaterally ignore a Toronto family’s decision to keep their near-dead husband and father on life support. In the same breath, however, the court also confirmed that, under the laws of Ontario, Canada’s most populous province, a group of government-appointed adjudicators could yet overrule the family’s choice. That tribunal, not the family or the doctors, has the ultimate power to pull the plug.

In other words: Canada has death panels.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/10/canada_has_death_panels_and_that_s_a_good_thing.html

Our government just calls them the "Independent Payment Advisory Board"

[Rapunzel]

Mark Steyn said it best filling in for Rush today. Canadians have a two-tiered healthcare system.  The Canadian system that sucks and the American system they flock south to utilize.

[xfreeper]

Mark Steyn said it best filling in for Rush today. Canadians have a two-tiered healthcare system.  The Canadian system that sucks and the American system they flock south to utilize.

Most Canadians would disagree. In fact as much as The Americans like to scoff at the Canadian system, the Canadians are generally appalled at the US system. To be fair, they both offer some advantage over the other.

[massadvj]

Most Canadians would disagree. In fact as much as The Americans like to scoff at the Canadian system, the Canadians are generally appalled at the US system. To be fair, they both offer some advantage over the other.

I've seen the Canadian system firsthand.  My father lived in Canada for the last 15 years of his life, and in that period had a heart bypass and quite a bit of other attention.  Waiting lines, shared accommodations (usually four to a room), unsanitary conditions in comparison to USA facilities, and deferred maintenance all over the place.  The only good thing about it is that Canadians themselves seem to be proud of it. 

I will say that while my father would have received better care in the USA, he would not have been able to afford it, so he may have been better off in Canada.  He'd have died heavily in debt in the USA (he was not yet old enough for Medicare).  Even so, he wouldn't have been able to afford Obamacare, either.

[xfreeper]

You've pretty much hit the main points of how people on each side of the border like to view the other side. It really comes down to the philosophies behind each system. Americans look at healthcare as a right or a privilege bought and paid for. Canadians view healthcare as a requirement of a functioning society that should be delivered as efficiently as possible. The way each system is developed on each side of the border is a reflection of the difference in the philosophy

I've seen the Canadian system firsthand.  My father lived in Canada for the last 15 years of his life, and in that period had a heart bypass and quite a bit of other attention.  Waiting lines, shared accommodations (usually four to a room), unsanitary conditions in comparison to USA facilities, and deferred maintenance all over the place.  The only good thing about it is that Canadians themselves seem to be proud of it. 

I will say that while my father would have received better care in the USA, he would not have been able to afford it, so he may have been better off in Canada.  He'd have died heavily in debt in the USA (he was not yet old enough for Medicare).  Even so, he wouldn't have been able to afford Obamacare, either.

[massadvj]

You've pretty much hit the main points of how people on each side of the border like to view the other side. It really comes down to the philosophies behind each system. Americans look at healthcare as a right or a privilege bought and paid for. Canadians view healthcare as a requirement of a functioning society that should be delivered as efficiently as possible. The way each system is developed on each side of the border is a reflection of the difference in the philosophy

Yes, but I think it's a flawed assumption that a Canadian-style healthcare system could work in the USA.  Our long tradition of political corruption makes that an impossibility, IMHO.  It could work on a state-by-state level (depending on the state -- I shudder to think what Louisianna's or Illinois' would like like), but a federal system would be unworkable. 

[xfreeper]

Absolutely correct. There is no way that either system would work on the other side of the border. The main reason being the difference in underlying philosophies that shape each system. Sadly, corruption plays a large role in what happens stateside. On the north side of the border everyone, including political leaders, are expected to live with the same system...good or bad.

[olde north church]

The population of Canada is about 1/10 th of USA.

[EC]

So is it's GDP.

[xfreeper]

The population of Canada is about 1/10 th of USA.

Is there a point or did you just want to contribute a factual observation?

[olde north church]

Is there a point or did you just want to contribute a factual observation?

Food for thought basically.  I don't think any other nation on the planet puts more money into medical research.  Doctors emigrate to the U.S. to learn and practice.  We export our knowledge via Doctors Without Borders and other organizations.  In many ways we have a healthcare surplus.
Emergency rooms are overflowing because people don't have regular doctors.  People would rather spend money on iPhones and big screen TVs than health insurance. 
What is going to happen, in a very wise country, doctors will be recruited, hospitals will be built and people will pay cash money to travel for life saving procedures.

[xfreeper]

Yes, one of the advantages the US has is it's wealth and ability to invest in research and facilities. As you pointed out, that doesn't necessarily lead to a superior health care system. A model built on the best money can buy has it's own drawbacks.

[musiclady]

Most Canadians would disagree. In fact as much as The Americans like to scoff at the Canadian system, the Canadians are generally appalled at the US system. To be fair, they both offer some advantage over the other.

Is the Canadian 'advantage' to wait for routine surgery for months or years that you would get within weeks here in the US?

[xfreeper]

Is the Canadian 'advantage' to wait for routine surgery for months or years that you would get within weeks here in the US?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by routine. If it is elective the wait is longer. If it is life saving the wait is less so. That question is like asking is an American advantage to file bankruptcy after recieving necessary healthcare. It plays into a popular misconception or weakness in a system that is less reflective of the norm.

[musiclady]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by routine. If it is elective the wait is longer. If it is life saving the wait is less so. That question is like asking is an American advantage to file bankruptcy after recieving necessary healthcare. It plays into a popular misconception or weakness in a system that is less reflective of the norm.

I'm saying 'routine' like a teenage girl who tears her ACL playing soccer, and instead of getting surgery when needed, has to wait for a year to get it done.

In Canada.

Factual case.

The wait is ridiculous, and had she been here in the US, she would have been rehabilitated and back on the field before she even went into pre-op in Canada.

Then there are older people who have life-threatening illnesses who also have to wait to get things that would be taken care of immediately here in the US.

There's NO WAY that nationalized medicine is better for the sick.  Maybe for people with colds and check-ups, but not for those who really need care.

[xfreeper]

Interesting.  Without knowing all the facts I'll take the anecdote with a grain of salt. My wife, a Canadian tore her ACL skiing in Canada and received the appropriate surgery and rehabilitation on a timely basis. If you want to advocate one system over another, perhaps a reasonable place to start would be with the fact that most Canadians are satisfied with their system and most Americans are not. A dispassionate examination of the pros and cons could go from there

[musiclady]

Interesting.  Without knowing all the facts I'll take the anecdote with a grain of salt. My wife, a Canadian tore her ACL skiing in Canada and received the appropriate surgery and rehabilitation on a timely basis. If you want to advocate one system over another, perhaps a reasonable place to start would be with the fact that most Canadians are satisfied with their system and most Americans are not. A dispassionate examination of the pros and cons could go from there

It's an odd thing to be on a conservative forum and have someone arguing in favor of socialized medicine.

Government control of our healthcare??

A disastrous idea.

Period.

[xfreeper]

It's an odd thing to be on a conservative forum and have someone arguing in favor of socialized medicine.

Government control of our healthcare??

A disastrous idea.

Period.

I'm not arguing for anything. I'm simply recognizing both systems have their weaknesses and strengths. I agree, government in control of anything in the US is  going to be a disaster. There is a reason why the result isn't the same in Canada. I've already mentioned those.

My wife is a doctor working in both private practice and as a hospitalist at major hospitals on both sides of the border. We split our time in each place....basically 7 days on 7 days off as well as having many freinds on both sides of the border, many of them doctors. After years of many discussions and first hand observations and experiences I've come to my own conclusions regarding healthcare in each place.

[EC]

After years of many discussions and first hand observations and experiences I've come to my own conclusions regarding healthcare in each place.

Would it be a bother to ask you to describe them? As someone intimately involved in both systems, your perspective would be interesting.

[xfreeper]

I trust you are not asking me to describe years of discussions, observations and experiences but rather my conclusions.
I wouldn’t be concerned about needing care at any level on either side of the border although I have to admit, part of that comfort comes with the knowledge I could probably access both sides if necessary so my level of comfort is a little compromised that way.
The healthcare in many parts of the states is truly the best money can buy. Unfortunately, many can’t afford it and are denied access. The healthcare in Canada is easily accessed when truly needed and available to all on an equal basis. My elderly MIL in Canada lives in an assisted living type situation as do many her age. It’s a fine facility that I doubt most would find any fault with at all. Due to her age and the age of many of her friends she has higher than normal healthcare needs. We have never had any reason at all to be concerned about the healthcare she receives.
My sister is struggling with a prolonged battle with Cancer in the US. Her proximity to Roswell Cancer center in the Buffalo area has been a huge advantage to her and something that probably would not have been available in Canada, at least at that level.
The thing that always comes to mind for me is as I said earlier, how people view healthcare on either side of the border. We could go a long way in this country by disallowing law makers to exempt themselves from a system they force constituents into. Also, seeing my sister and the family having to fight with insurance companies while at times she is on her death bed is obscene and outrageous.
In the end, I believe both systems have strengths and weaknesses and I can’t say one is better than the other overall. I do think it is a little telling that Canadians are basically happy with their system and Americans are not. I used to think it would be wise to take the strengths of both and try to combine them. I now know that is not possible because Americans and Canadians think differently about how the subject should even be approached, as my earlier post pointed out.

[EC]

My thanks. A good post, summed up well and a totally fair look at both systems from experience.

Blessings to your sister also. The c is scary. No, terrifying.

[Rapunzel]

Most Canadians would disagree. In fact as much as The Americans like to scoff at the Canadian system, the Canadians are generally appalled at the US system. To be fair, they both offer some advantage over the other.

Where I live we have a huge Canadian winter population - most of the new home sales the last five years has been to Canadians... they disagree with your assessment.  Most plan their medical for when they come down here in the winter.. We have some very long time friends who are Canadian and the wife needed an MRI on her knee - had to wait over a year for the MRI in Canada, finally had it done down here in the states, showed she needed surgery and then she had a very long wait in Canada before she could have her knee surgery. 

[Cincinnatus]

Xfreeper can you document the latter part of this statement (bolded): I do think it is a little telling that Canadians are basically happy with their system and Americans are not

That is at least the 2nd time you have made that claim but how does that reconcile with a contravening statement from another thread started by Mystery:

The goal of ObamaCare is a national transformation from a country where 85% had health insurance & of those 87% were happy with their plan, to one where almost no one will be happy with what they have been forced to take.

THE TRUE PURPOSE OF OBAMACARE: A SINGLE PAYER TROJAN HORSE
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,117324.msg474706.html#msg474706

Now I recognize being happy with your health care plan is not the same as being happy with your health care, or the health care system, but it does indicate Americans are not all that upset with what we already have. Thus I am asking you to show your evidence for, I do think it is a little telling that Canadians are basically happy with their system and Americans are not

[xfreeper]

A simple google search will verify how satisfied people are in each country re their healthcare. As to the other comments, people don't usually put off until they travel things they actually need. They defer things they would like but aren't  necessarily immediate in need. Also, I wouldn't necessarily view people wintering in your neighborhood as a good guage of overall foreign thinking. Anyhow, all any of us can do is make our own judgements on our own knowledge and experience so whether I agree with someone or not, I value their thinking.

[xfreeper]

Here's a start for some info. I just googled are Canadians happy with there healthcare and grabbed the first link. The last paragraph summarizes. There are many other articles and info on the subject if you wouyld like to do your own research


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/01/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-canadian-health-care-in-one-post/

Xfreeper can you document the latter part of this statement (bolded): I do think it is a little telling that Canadians are basically happy with their system and Americans are not

That is at least the 2nd time you have made that claim but how does that reconcile with a contravening statement from another thread started by Mystery:

THE TRUE PURPOSE OF OBAMACARE: A SINGLE PAYER TROJAN HORSE
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,117324.msg474706.html#msg474706

Now I recognize being happy with your health care plan is not the same as being happy with your health care, or the health care system, but it does indicate Americans are not all that upset with what we already have. Thus I am asking you to show your evidence for, I do think it is a little telling that Canadians are basically happy with their system and Americans are not