The Briefing Room
General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on December 06, 2016, 03:24:13 pm
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https://twitter.com/CNN/status/806147645689446400
:shrug:
:laugh:
Gonna be a long 4 years. His gaffes are worse than any Democrat's.
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Gonna be a long 4 years. His gaffes are worse than any Democrat's.
Sigh. The base price for the plane is $357 million. No telling what the numerous one-off, high-tech "features" cost, but they're not going to be cheap.
I guess nobody's going to cut this idiot's thumbs off after all.
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Sigh. The base price for the plane is $357 million. No telling what the numerous one-off, high-tech "features" cost, but they're not going to be cheap.
I guess nobody's going to cut this idiot's thumbs off after all.
I think the story is being reported poorly. It didn't say how many planes were being built under this contract. Trump's tweet made it sound like it was one plane for $4 billion. I understand there are electronics and countermeasures that have to be added in, but even at $1 billion a plane, Boeing is profiting mightily.
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If not Boeing, then which company shall we give the contract to? Airbus? What other company makes wide-bodied planes capable of performing the task, nowadays? :shrug:
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I think the story is being reported poorly. It didn't say how many planes were being built under this contract. Trump's tweet made it sound like it was one plane for $4 billion. I understand there are electronics and countermeasures that have to be added in, but even at $1 billion a plane, Boeing is profiting mightily.
They're buying two planes. I doubt Boeing is "profiting mightily." Things cost what they cost. Moreover, if costs are increasing, it's almost certainly because the AF has been changing (adding or subtracting) requirements for the plane.
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If not Boeing, then which company shall we give the contract to? Airbus? What other company makes wide-bodied planes capable of performing the task, nowadays? :shrug:
The sticking point is that the AF wants the plane to have four engines. There are only two large planes in production that satisfy that requirement, and one of them is made by Airbus.
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https://twitter.com/MarcusReports/status/806173724256980993
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https://twitter.com/MarcusReports/status/806173724256980993
Most likely the rest of it is from Defense contractors meeting various requirements for the flying command fortress. Computer and communication systems, satellites, EMB defenses, countermeasures, etc. You can't compare AF1 to the price of a normal get nor can you just willy nilly down negotiate away some of the national security requirements.
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?? So...he's saving some money, why is that such a problem? Perhaps he plans on traveling around the country using his own Boeing 757. It has an estimated price tag of $100 million vs. the cost of the new Air Force One with an estimated price tag of over $4 billion! That's a huge difference.
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Go to Lockheed Martin and ask them what it would take to convert a C-5 to meet the needs of the office. While the C5 is not the same as a 747-200, in most fight performance metrics, it is either close or exceeds the 747.
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?? So...he's saving some money, why is that such a problem? Perhaps he plans on traveling around the country using his own Boeing 757. It has an estimated price tag of $100 million vs. the cost of the new Air Force One with an estimated price tag of over $4 billion! That's a huge difference.
I think you misunderstand the nature and use of AF1, the nature of the procurement (it's two planes, not one, for example), and the cost of the mission-unique modifications that are being made to make it vastly different from a standard-model 747-8 aircraft.
Trump is once again showing his ignorance.
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Go to Lockheed Martin and ask them what it would take to convert a C-5 to meet the needs of the office. While the C5 is not the same as a 747-200, in most fight performance metrics, it is either close or exceeds the 747.
It probably would cost $10 billion to make a new C-5. The production line has been closed for decades.
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If not Boeing, then which company shall we give the contract to? Airbus? What other company makes wide-bodied planes capable of performing the task, nowadays? :shrug:
Maybe he thinks McDonnell-Douglas can give him a better deal.
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does he really think we have one-man rule in this nation
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?? So...he's saving some money, why is that such a problem? Perhaps he plans on traveling around the country using his own Boeing 757. It has an estimated price tag of $100 million vs. the cost of the new Air Force One with an estimated price tag of over $4 billion! That's a huge difference.
Does his B757 have encrypted secure comms? Military grade GPS and radar systems? Are the electronics shielded against EMP's?
What about anti missile threat detection or countermeasures?
Shall I continue to point out what goes into the price tag of a military grade AF1 versus a BBJ 757?
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does he really think we have one-man rule in this nation
Yes he does.
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Will someone from the Trump team PLEASE Cancel his Twitter account.
I'm not at liberty to discuss anything not publically disclosed on this project, but this was sent by Boeing today.
Boeing responds to Trump tweet about Air Force One
Boeing issued a statement Tuesday in response to a tweet by U.S. President-elect Donald Trump suggesting that the U.S. government should cancel its order for a new version of Air Force One.
"We are currently under contract for $170 million to help determine the capabilities of these complex military aircraft that serve the unique requirements of the president of the United States,” the statement reads. “We look forward to working with the U.S. Air Force on subsequent phases of the program allowing us to deliver the best planes for the president at the best value for the American taxpayer."
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I think the story is being reported poorly. It didn't say how many planes were being built under this contract. Trump's tweet made it sound like it was one plane for $4 billion. I understand there are electronics and countermeasures that have to be added in, but even at $1 billion a plane, Boeing is profiting mightily.
The contract likely includes parts, upgrades and maintenance services for many years into the future for both very advanced aircraft
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Do we need replacements for the current AF1 fleet? How quickly do they become obsolete, I wonder.
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Do we need replacements for the current AF1 fleet? How quickly do they become obsolete, I wonder.
There have been tremendous leaps in fuel efficiency wing design and electronics since the current AF1 twins came online when Clinton took office.
Gotta remember that before the current 747-200B's AF1 was a pair of almost 40 year old 707's...one of which carried the body of JFK back from Dallas.
The 747-8 currently under development is only similiar to the current plane in body style.
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Thanks, tx.
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Thanks, tx.
Anytime. I'm sure that @SZonian can fill in any details that I missed.
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This is NOT an order for replacement AF1s. Can we end the misinformation?
Here's how it's being reported by USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/06/trump-attacks-boeings-deal-new-air-force-one/95033188/):
President-elect Donald Trump on Tuesday called for the U.S. government to cancel a deal with aircraft manufacturer Boeing for development of a new Air Force One.
The Air Force signed deals with Boeing in January and July to design certain aspects of the new presidential aircraft, including its interior, electrical and power system, and maintenance systems.
The U.S. Government Accountability Office estimated in March that the entire program would cost about $3.2 billion from the 2010 through 2020 fiscal years, including $2 billion for research and development. ...
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The contract likely includes parts, upgrades and maintenance services for many years into the future for both very advanced aircraft
I'm sure you're right, further cementing my opinion that this story has been botched by the media.
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Do we need replacements for the current AF1 fleet? How quickly do they become obsolete, I wonder.
30 years
Two very expensive planes, 30-years, parts, upgrades, constant maintenance
Cancel it and force Trump to fly commercial on his overseas jaunts.
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Here's how it's being reported by USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/06/trump-attacks-boeings-deal-new-air-force-one/95033188/):
President-elect Donald Trump on Tuesday called for the U.S. government to cancel a deal with aircraft manufacturer Boeing for development of a new Air Force One.
The Air Force signed deals with Boeing in January and July to design certain aspects of the new presidential aircraft, including its interior, electrical and power system, and maintenance systems.
The U.S. Government Accountability Office estimated in March that the entire program would cost about $3.2 billion from the 2010 through 2020 fiscal years, including $2 billion for research and development. ...
That's better...$2 Billion for R&D? Hmm, whose congressional districts house those Boeing facilities?
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Why do I think that Trump will “try” to get his personal 757 jet (Trump Force One as some call it) fitted with the necessary security and defensive upgrades paid for by us taxpayers and then will try make money off it in the process by leasing it back to the government?
Of course that wouldn’t really “fly” with the Air Force or with the SS. Then again, he might be planning to make big changes at the Secret Service too.
(http://i0.wp.com/wfnk.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/melania8.jpg?resize=328%2C453)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZq3iCn2y74
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Why do I think that Trump will “try” to get his personal 757 jet (Trump Force One as some call it) fitted with the necessary security and defensive upgrades paid for by us taxpayers and then will try make money off it in the process by leasing it back to the government?
Not possible. The 757 is far too small.
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Not possible. The 757 is far too small.
And no longer manufactured. The gov't isn't going to (and should not) upgrade some guy's private plane.
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(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/niallmccarthy/files/2016/06/20160609_Trump_Force_One.jpg)
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Not possible. The 757 is far too small.
True but then AF1 doesn't have gold plated seat belts and gold plated toilet fixtures and pillows with Trump's family crest.
And we know that Trump will likely not be traveling with a press pool so that should cut down on the number of seats needed.
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Rush Limbaugh is suggesting today that Trump is 'dumb like a fox'-like, and that there's a LOT more going on here with Boeing.
Boeing has contributed millions to the Clinton Foundation and Bill Clinton while Hillary was Sec of State and meeting with the Iranians.
Then they were awarded....or expected to be awarded, the Contract for rebuilding the Iranian airliner fleet.
Stay tuned..... :laugh:
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REUTERS (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-airplane-idUSKBN13V1S5?utm_source=34553&utm_medium=partner):
... Boeing has not yet begun building the two replacements for the current Air Force One planes, which are scheduled to be in service by the 2024 fiscal year, and it was not clear what Trump's source of information was for the cost.
The budgeted costs for the Air Force One replacement program are $2.87 billion for the fiscal years 2015 through 2021, according to budget documents.
A March 2016 report from the Government Accountability Office, a watchdog agency, estimated the total cost of the two 747's, which have to be extensively modified so they can function as an airborne White House, was estimated at $3.2 billion.
Boeing has not yet been awarded the money to build the proposed replacements, and is currently working on engineering and designing the aircraft.
"We are currently under contract for $170 million to help determine the capabilities of these complex military aircraft that serve the unique requirements of the President of the United States," the company said in a statement.
"We look forward to working with the U.S. Air Force on subsequent phases of the program allowing us to deliver the best planes for the president at the best value for the American taxpayer." ...
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President-elect Trump: “We want Boeing to make a lot of money, but not that much money”.
Well, at least under Trump we know that the new practice of the government picking winners and losers and determining how much they should be allowed to make will continue even after Obama has left office.
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Well, at least under Trump we know that the new practice of the government picking winners and losers and determining how much they should be allowed to make will continue even after Obama has left office.
A new 747-8 cost $400 million. One AF1 747-8 cost 4 billion..quite a markup. I have no problem with Trump slapping them down. That 3.6 billion is quite a bit of missile defense, medical quite etc.
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A new 747-8 cost $400 million. One AF1 747-8 cost 4 billion..quite a markup. I have no problem with Trump slapping them down. That 3.6 billion is quite a bit of missile defense, medical quite etc.
Your facts are not correct. Thus, what "you have no problem with," is discounted accordingly.
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A new 747-8 cost $400 million. One AF1 747-8 cost 4 billion..quite a markup. I have no problem with Trump slapping them down. That 3.6 billion is quite a bit of missile defense, medical quite etc.
Yes, because Trumpian "Conservatives" have absolutely no problem with gargantuan government 'slapping down' businesses they do not like or want 'limited'.
Mussolini is laughing in his grave.
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Well this is interesting. Trump made his AF1 tweet after Boeing CEO criticized him. http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/12/06/trump-bashes-boeing-after-ceo-s-mild-criticism.html?via=mobile&source=copyurl
Looks more like a revenge twitter tantrum than a cost cutting move.
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A new 747-8 cost $400 million. One AF1 747-8 cost 4 billion..quite a markup. I have no problem with Trump slapping them down. That 3.6 billion is quite a bit of missile defense, medical quite etc.
There is not 'one' AF1. When they build one they actually build a fleet. Wherever the President goes, a duplicate AF1 follows him as well as there are always a couple on standby.
$3.6 Billion is likely for 3-4 jets along with all of the military technology.
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Why do I think that Trump will “try” to get his personal 757 jet (Trump Force One as some call it) fitted with the necessary security and defensive upgrades paid for by us taxpayers and then will try make money off it in the process by leasing it back to the government?
Not going to happen. First of all, there isn't one jet, there are several AF1's built at any one time as emergency back-ups so they are always ready. Also, AF1 just appears to be a regular jet but it is basically a mobile military command center. It would be like replacing the USS Ronald Reagan with his personal yacht.
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https://twitter.com/MarcusReports/status/806173724256980993
Article: Boeing responds after Trump knocks contract for Air Force One jets (https://www.yahoo.com/news/boeing-responds-after-trump-knocks-contract-for-air-force-one-jets-174029191.html)
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Do we need replacements for the current AF1 fleet? How quickly do they become obsolete, I wonder.
@txradioguy @mountaineer
From a purely generic aircraft point of view based on my years in flight test and not knowing exactly what the exact configuration of AF1 is...
Maintaining older aircraft gets harder and harder each year. Parts obsolescence and availability is usually the biggest obstacle. Getting replacement parts can be quite expensive if the OEM has since moved to other manufacturers for newer components of newer generation aircraft.
Even though it's based on a commercial model, we gotta remember that it's a flying operations center to keep the President in constant contact with Command, Control, Communications. 0bama used the plane as his personal valet service more than anything, but during 9/11 Bush was using it for it's intended purpose. AF1 is for all practical purposes, a shell of a 747 and all similarities end there.
Upgrading equipment within the aircraft takes a lot of research, design and engineering. Newer modern equipment can't just be plugged in to upgrade existing, obsolete equipment. Have to verify compatibility and impact...anything that takes power has to be vetted carefully and modifications made before it's allowed to be operated.
Power systems within AF1 are unlike any in a typical 747. Then there are the structural modifications made to accommodate any extra weight imposed by the requirements. This in turn, affects thrust to weight ratio, operating range, etc.
Modifying existing airframes can be an expensive proposition, so can building new airplanes from scratch...at some point though, the cost to maintain will exceed good fiscal sense. Like the Navy mothballing/retiring old ships...
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Not going to happen. First of all, there isn't one jet, there are several AF1's built at any one time as emergency back-ups so they are always ready. Also, AF1 just appears to be a regular jet but it is basically a mobile military command center. It would be like replacing the USS Ronald Reagan with his personal yacht.
Agreed. That's why I said it wouldn't "fly".
Airforce One (both of them because as I understand there are always two, one is always on standby) is not anything like a commercial or private/business jet liner.
In addition to all the defensive equipment and the very advanced com systems that were upgraded after 9/11, Air Force One also has an on board fully equipped medical facility.
Interesting documentary on Air Force One:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q6lmXHfwQE
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It was nothing more than another Trumpertantrum.
This man will risk the safety of the nation because some CEO had some very mild criticism of his rhetoric
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Well this is interesting. Trump made his AF1 tweet after Boeing CEO criticized him. http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/12/06/trump-bashes-boeing-after-ceo-s-mild-criticism.html?via=mobile&source=copyurl
Looks more like a revenge twitter tantrum than a cost cutting move.
Ugh. Just as predicted.
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Should be a fun 4 years.
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does he really think we have one-man rule in this nation
Yes he does.
@geronl
@txradioguy
Sorry I had to remove that comment
Right. Brilliant.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Seal_of_Virginia.svg)
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30 years
Two very expensive planes, 30-years, parts, upgrades, constant maintenance
Cancel it and force Trump to fly commercial on his overseas jaunts.
If he insists on using less-capable platforms, he is saying he has no intention of fulfilling his duties, and he is unfit for the office.
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Working at Boeing and hearing nothing of a contract to Build replacement Air Force One ever being finalized I was critical of his Tweet from the start. A little digging shows Trump misspoke once again, showing is complete ignorance.
The inaccuracies in Donald Trump’s Air Force One tweet
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/12/06/the-inaccuracies-in-donald-trumps-air-force-one-tweet/?utm_term=.6fb264814d4f
Trump is not a stickler for accuracy, but there are number of inaccuracies in his tweet. Let’s break them down one by one.
“Boeing is building . . . ”
Earlier in 2016, Boeing received a $170 million contract to design a replacement for the aging pair of Air Force Ones used by the president. Boeing is not actually building the jet, though logically it is the only U.S. manufacturer with the capability to build such an aircraft.
“Costs are out of control, more than $4 billion”
Cost have actually not been set. The Defense Department’s five-year plan indicates a cost of $2.9 billion over the next five years for design and development. It’s logical to assume at least another $1 billion in additional expenses to complete and procure the aircraft.
So an estimate of $4 billion — for design, testing and manufacture of at least two jets — is not completely out of line. But the budget is subject to approval by Congress and the actual design of the aircraft. Boeing literally needs to re-engineer the plane from the ground up, so there are many one-time expenses.
Boeing says it made no money making the last set of Air Force One jets and does not expect to make money on this order, as it is more a matter of prestige. Indeed, Boeing has already announced that it may soon end production of the 747 jet.
“Cancel the order!”
Nothing has been ordered yet. But the program could be eliminated. This may not be a problem for Trump, but certainly would affect his successors, especially if no order is placed before Boeing stops making 747s. The current aircraft were delivered in 1990, and as we noted, the life cycle is about 30 years. The Pentagon says the current fleet “faces capability gaps, rising maintenance costs, and parts obsolescence as it reaches the end of its planned 30-year life-cycle.”
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Well this is interesting. Trump made his AF1 tweet after Boeing CEO criticized him. http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/12/06/trump-bashes-boeing-after-ceo-s-mild-criticism.html?via=mobile&source=copyurl
Looks more like a revenge twitter tantrum than a cost cutting move.
Watch for 'unexpected' delays and 'unforeseen' cost overruns should this continue.
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I'm sure you're right, further cementing my opinion that this story has been botched by the media.
The MSM may have botched the story, but one thing we know by what Trump tweeted is that he wants the order cancelled for Air Force One because of the cost. We also have the tweet back from Boeing stating that they have a contract. While my first inclination is that the cost is outrageous, my second thought is what is he going to do once he takes office?? Does he think he can renegotiate every deal and every treaty that has been made over the past several years to his liking??
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Watch for 'unexpected' delays and 'unforeseen' cost overruns should this continue.
There is a lot more trouble he can create for Boeing beyond this. A Tweet about canceling 50 Billion F-15 SE sales to Middle countries including Israel could cause BA stocks to plummet. This is what frightens me most about Trump - using the bully pulpit in this way taking revenge any time he wants. Even something unintentional, like a Tweet can cost a company millions.
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Trump's numbers were a little off. But only by $3.8 Billion. The contract was actually for $170 Million.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,236831.0.html
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There is a lot more trouble he can create for Boeing beyond this. A Tweet about canceling 50 Billion F-15 SE sales to Middle countries including Israel could cause BA stocks to plummet. This is what frightens me most about Trump - using the bully pulpit in this way taking revenge any time he wants. Even something unintentional, like a Tweet can cost a company millions.
And then Boeing announces that they can no longer maintain the F-15 production line due to budgetary constraints.
Good luck defending America now.
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Rush Limbaugh is suggesting today that Trump is 'dumb like a fox'-like, and that there's a LOT more going on here with Boeing.
Boeing has contributed millions to the Clinton Foundation and Bill Clinton while Hillary was Sec of State and meeting with the Iranians.
Then they were awarded....or expected to be awarded, the Contract for rebuilding the Iranian airliner fleet.
Stay tuned..... :laugh:
What other American aircraft manufacturer is left that can build a jet like AF1 with an off the shelf airframe large enough to do the job?
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They're buying two planes. I doubt Boeing is "profiting mightily." Things cost what they cost. Moreover, if costs are increasing, it's almost certainly because the AF has been changing (adding or subtracting) requirements for the plane.
He wants to cancel jobs for people in Washington? I know lots of people employed at Boeing. Its one of our largest employers. If he goes outside of the country what would that say?
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He wants to cancel jobs for people in Washington? I know lots of people employed at Boeing. Its one of our largest employers. If he goes outside of the country what would that say?
Well @Chosen Daughter Washington State didn't vote for him and elections have consequences.
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"I mean, I do think at a certain point you’ve made enough money.”---Barak Obama April 28, 2010
"We want Boeing to make a lot of money but not that much money.”---Donald Trump December 6, 2016
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"I mean, I do think at a certain point you’ve made enough money.”---Barak Obama April 28, 2010
"We want Boeing to make a lot of money but not that much money.”---Donald Trump December 6, 2016
(http://i51.tinypic.com/28ul74k.gif)
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"I mean, I do think at a certain point you’ve made enough money.”---Barak Obama April 28, 2010
"We want Boeing to make a lot of money but not that much money.”---Donald Trump December 6, 2016
If you suspend your belief in reality(TV) for a moment, you will see that you are not capable of determining who is the bigger liberal between the two, otherwise carry on.
/s
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Trump wants to reward (Carrier, Softbank) and punish (Boeing, 35% tax) individual companies based on how they treat him.
That is insane by any definition.
Just remember his 35% tax is only applicable to companies he wants to tax, not the ones he likes.
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He wants to cancel jobs for people in Washington? I know lots of people employed at Boeing. Its one of our largest employers. If he goes outside of the country what would that say?
And I'm one of them. 30 Years now. And watching my stock drop because of something he said angers me to know end. I truly was hoping that in 4 years I could say I was wrong about him. So far he's only assuring me that I was right about him all along.
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And I'm one of them. 30 Years now. And watching my stock drop because of something he said angers me to know end. I truly was hoping that in 4 years I could say I was wrong about him. So far he's only assuring me that I was right about him all along.
Oh so sorry NavyCanDo. I knew you were an Washingtonian. Me too. Born and raised and Boeing is part of the state. Washington without a Boeing would be like Seattle without a Space Needle.
I was hoping that Trump could pull it together and do a good job. It looks bad. Who does he think he is anyway insulting corporations that provide jobs for American Citizens. And Boeing does. He is a bad taste.
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And I'm one of them. 30 Years now. And watching my stock drop because of something he said angers me to know end. I truly was hoping that in 4 years I could say I was wrong about him. So far he's only assuring me that I was right about him all along.
Yep. He does seem to be listening to some things. He got rid of that Pizzagate idiot-boy at least. He needs to realize that on social media he's an idiot.
4 years of this crap, can you imagine?
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If not Boeing, then which company shall we give the contract to? Airbus? What other company makes wide-bodied planes capable of performing the task, nowadays? :shrug:
Lockhead Martin makes the C-5 Galaxy which has similar performance capabilities and in some areas exceeds the performance of the 747.
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Lockhead Martin makes the C-5 Galaxy which has similar performance capabilities and in some areas exceeds the performance of the 747.
Except the design and airframe for the C-5 is not built to be a passenger aircraft. And even if such a silly "fix" were tried...even on a C-5M Super galaxy...the newest of the planes...it would still cost a LOT of money to bring it up to AF1 specs. Probably more than it would cost for two 747-8's.
There were only 131 C-5's built total. And those are spread through the Active, Reserve and Air Guard fleets. The production lines for new aircraft shut down years ago. The only way to get two C-5's for the purpose you speak of would be to pull them from the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group bone yard at Davis-Monthan AFB fly them to the Lockheed plant (after you spent the money to get them airworthy again for a special FAA one time flight certificate) and then spend $100 million per plane to bring them to the "M" specs...and that's before any money is spent modifying them from a cargo plane into the flying White House.
There is a reason the military...in certain instances...buys "off the shelf" aircraft for conversions instead of creating a whole new genre from whole cloth.
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Trump wants to reward (Carrier, Softbank) and punish (Boeing, 35% tax) individual companies based on how they treat him.
That is insane by any definition.
Just remember his 35% tax is only applicable to companies he wants to tax, not the ones he likes.
I think he will lower the corporate tax rate across the board, but he also may make 'deals' with certain companies.
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I think he will lower the corporate tax rate across the board, but he also may make 'deals' with certain companies.
And like Palin said...that's called "crony capitalism"...there's nothing free market about it.
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"I mean, I do think at a certain point you’ve made enough money.”---Barak Obama April 28, 2010
"We want Boeing to make a lot of money but not that much money.”---Donald Trump December 6, 2016
But, but, but ....
Don't worry, the God Squad will be by sooner or later to set you straight.
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Trump's numbers were a little off. But only by $3.8 Billion. The contract was actually for $170 Million.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,236831.0.html
Trump haters always get it wrong.
So as a raw number, Trump’s $4 billion figure is in the ballpark. (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/dec/06/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-tweet-air-force-one-bo/)
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And I'm one of them. 30 Years now. And watching my stock drop because of something he said angers me to know end. I truly was hoping that in 4 years I could say I was wrong about him. So far he's only assuring me that I was right about him all along.
Charging US Tax payers (me) 4 billion for 2 planes that cost 350 million a piece is fine with everyone here huh? Guess yall were cool with the $400.00 hammers and Hillary losing 6 billion at State.
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Lockhead Martin makes the C-5 Galaxy which has similar performance capabilities and in some areas exceeds the performance of the 747.
At about one thrid the cost of a 747-8
hell of a bird
(http://airforcelive.dodlive.mil/files/2015/06/070202-F-0000F-001.jpg)
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Except the design and airframe for the C-5 is not built to be a passenger aircraft. And even if such a silly "fix" were tried...even on a C-5M Super galaxy...the newest of the planes...it would still cost a LOT of money to bring it up to AF1 specs. Probably more than it would cost for two 747-8's.
There were only 131 C-5's built total. And those are spread through the Active, Reserve and Air Guard fleets. The production lines for new aircraft shut down years ago. The only way to get two C-5's for the purpose you speak of would be to pull them from the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group bone yard at Davis-Monthan AFB fly them to the Lockheed plant (after you spent the money to get they airworthy again for a special FAA one time flight certificate) and then spend $100 million per plane to bring them to the "M" specs...and that's before any money is spent modifying them from a cargo plane into the flying White House.
There is a reason the military...in certain instances...buys "off the shelf" aircraft for conversions instead of creating a whole new genre from whole cloth.
@Taxcontrol @txradioguy
Yeah, I think the C5 modification would be a non-starter... the redesign to accommodate what is intended for an AF1 would be a very large undertaking.
Could bring a couple of L1011s out of mothballs...sweeeeet flying aircraft and big.
I flew on one back in the 90s from SC to Cold Lake Canada...flew a C5 back. Absolutely no comparison.
Boeing does have the upperhand here...they're the only US manufacturer of aircraft of this type and it's not like they're hurting for business.
Industry insiders know the strength of Boeing, no matter what the hot head says.
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What other American aircraft manufacturer is left that can build a jet like AF1 with an off the shelf airframe large enough to do the job?
Lockheed C-5 Galaxy
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Charging US Tax payers (me) 4 billion for 2 planes that cost 350 million a piece is fine with everyone here huh? Guess yall were cool with the $400.00 hammers and Hillary losing 6 billion at State.
@jpsb
But it's not an OTS aircraft simply modified with upscale furnishings inside.
Your strawmen notwithstanding.
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@jpsb
But it's not an OTS aircraft simply modified with upscale furnishings inside.
Your strawmen notwithstanding.
The upgrades cost 3 billion? Trump right Boeing is ripping US Tax payers off.
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How much does it cost to keep the president of the United States safe when he travels? When the government purchased Air Force One in the early 1990s the cost was an estimated $330 million, which is around $571 million by today’s standards after inflation. Here’s the catch though: Air Force One is actually two planes. That’s right, the cost of both of the jets was $660 million of taxpayer money.
https://financesonline.com/8-most-expensive-planes-in-the-world-how-much-does-it-cost-to-fly-like-the-elite/
And now Boeing wants 4 billion? Cancel the buy!
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@jpsb
But it's not an OTS aircraft simply modified with upscale furnishings inside.
Your strawmen notwithstanding.
Trump panders to reactionaries who don't ask questions.
I'm not in the industry but even I understand that AF1 is not just any plane. Its not a standard airframe pulled out of production and retrofitted with extra parts. From what I've read they take a standard blueprint and rework it from the ground up with stronger materials etc.
We're also talking about 2 identical planes.
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Lockheed C-5 Galaxy
Yeah, you guys keep saying that. However, they don't actually manufacture them anymore....
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How much does it cost to keep the president of the United States safe when he travels? When the government purchased Air Force One in the early 1990s the cost was an estimated $330 million, which is around $571 million by today’s standards after inflation. Here’s the catch though: Air Force One is actually two planes. That’s right, the cost of both of the jets was $660 million of taxpayer money.
https://financesonline.com/8-most-expensive-planes-in-the-world-how-much-does-it-cost-to-fly-like-the-elite/
And now Boeing wants 4 billion? Cancel the buy!
You really don't understand what goes into building and supporting a plane like this do you?
Wait don't answer...your knee jerk comments tell me all I need to know.
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How much does it cost to keep the president of the United States safe when he travels? When the government purchased Air Force One in the early 1990s the cost was an estimated $330 million, which is around $571 million by today’s standards after inflation. Here’s the catch though: Air Force One is actually two planes. That’s right, the cost of both of the jets was $660 million of taxpayer money.
https://financesonline.com/8-most-expensive-planes-in-the-world-how-much-does-it-cost-to-fly-like-the-elite/
And now Boeing wants 4 billion? Cancel the buy!
You really are misinformed. Either that, or you're so in the tank for your idiot savior that you'll make any argument, however silly, to protect him.
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Lockheed C-5 Galaxy
It's not designed to be a flying WH and it would cost a ton to make it so...more than it's worth.
And who are you going to pull the two birds required for the task from? The Active, Reserve or ANG fleets? Less than 150 were produced...to innclude the test bed aircraft.
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You really are misinformed. Either that, or you're so in the tank for your idiot savior that you'll make any argument, however silly, to protect him.
I'd go with the latter.
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Trump panders to reactionaries who don't ask questions.
I'm not in the industry but even I understand that AF1 is not just any plane. Its not a standard airframe pulled out of production and retrofitted with extra parts. From what I've read they take a standard blueprint and rework it from the ground up with stronger materials etc.
We're also talking about 2 identical planes.
And maintenance, repair parts, technology support for multiple years. Trump reacted to a small piece of the story.
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I'd go with the latter.
I'm going with both.
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Yeah, you guys keep saying that. However, they don't actually manufacture them anymore....
Thanks for the correction.
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And maintenance, repair parts, technology support for multiple years. Trump reacted to a small piece of the story.
He'll lose interest in this and move on in a few days.
Remember when he said he would "renegotiate" the Keystone deal?
He's forgotten about it.
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You really don't understand what goes into building and supporting a plane like this do you?
Wait don't answer...your knee jerk comments tell me all I need to know.
600 million in 1990, 4 billion in 2020? We are getting screwed!
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I'm going with both.
I'll go with keeping the current AF1 flying and save the 4 billion we don't have. I'll bet there is still a lot of life left in those 2 747s. Plus Trump can use his own 757 in a pinch.
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600 million in 1990, 4 billion in 2020? We are getting screwed!
Different planes, different requirements, different technology. And the cost would not just be for the planes, but also for the long-term maintenance and specialized equipment for that.
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600 million in 1990, 4 billion in 2020? We are getting screwed!
I'd say, read the contract first.
My experience is federal contract oversight has jaded my view of federal contractors. Still, I'd like to see the parameters of the contract before definitively saying the taxpayer is getting screwed.
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Different planes, different requirements, different technology. And the cost would not just be for the planes, but also for the long-term maintenance and specialized equipment for that.
We can not afford the 4 billion, keep the current planes flying. Hell DC3s are still flying, B52s are still flying I think we can keep those 747s in the air a while longer.
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We can not afford the 4 billion, keep the current planes flying. Hell DC3s are still flying, B52s are still flying I think we can keep those 747s in the air a while longer.
You're not interested in a discussion of facts. You just want to protect your boy from the consequences of yet another stupid tweet. Have a nice day.
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I'd say, read the contract first.
My experience is federal contract oversight has jaded my view of federal contractors. Still, I'd like to see the parameters of the contract before definitively saying the taxpayer is getting screwed.
Air Force One program cost in 1990 600 million, Air Force One program cost in 2020 4 billion
747-200 cost 220 million 747-800 cost 350 million
So it cost 200 million to up grade in 1990 now it costs over 3 billion to upgrade? We are
getting screw by Boeing.
Boeing does not have many orders for it's 747-8 so it's looking to Uncle Sam for help. Fine give us tax payers a good deal and then maybe we'll buy new AF1 planes but screwing us over is not going to fly with President Trump.
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And maintenance, repair parts, technology support for multiple years. Trump reacted to a small piece of the story.
There is a whole entire logistical train that has to be established for the two aircraft to last their lifetime in service. Plus you have to train the aircrews, loggies and wrench turners the ins-and outs of the new platform. That costs money.
Some people don't seem to understand that.
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You're not interested in a discussion of facts. You just want to protect your boy from the consequences of yet another stupid tweet. Have a nice day.
Removed by Moderator. I as a conservative am not fine with that.
Knock it off with accusing people on TBR of being Liberals. - Mod1
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Air Force One program cost in 1990 600 million, Air Force One program cost in 2020 4 billion
747-200 cost 220 million 747-800 cost 350 million
So it cost 200 million to up grade in 1990 now it costs over 3 billion to upgrade? We are
getting screw by Boeing.
Boeing does not have many orders for it's 747-8 so it's looking to Uncle Sam for help. Fine give us tax payers a good deal and then maybe we'll buy new AF1 planes but screwing us over is not going to fly with President Trump.
You know that the cost is "screwing over the tax payers" how exactly?
Please share with us your knowledge into these things. Myself and @SZonian have been trying to educate you. But you're so convinced anything we say that runs counter to your blather is "Trump bashing" you refuse to hear the facts we are trying to educate you with.
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Like most liberals you're fine with throwing money away, I as a conservative am not fine with that.
:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:
:thud:
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There is a whole entire logistical train that has to be established for the two aircraft to last their lifetime in service. Plus you have to train the aircrews, loggies and wrench turners the ins-and outs of the new platform. That costs money.
Some people don't seem to understand that.
The planes belong to the USAF, they are maintained and operated by the USAF. I think the USAF is up to the job without to much help from Boeing.
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The upgrades cost 3 billion? Trump right Boeing is ripping US Tax payers off.
@jpsb
There are many things we don't know about what is included in that figure and whether or not that figure is actually correct. It appears the GAO and USAF have different opinions on the costs.
The GAO estimated $2B over 6 years for research, development, testing and evaluation...the USAF came in at around $4B. Who's right? It's an estimate. Boeing is only in the initial RFP phase now...
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-seeks-to-ground-costs-of-new-air-force-one-with-boeing/ar-AAlcXJY?li=BBnb7Kz&OCID=ansmsnnews11
What I do know about acquisition is that the DoD is typically responsible for the cost overruns because of additional "requirements" beyond the scope of the original contract. When the contractor responds and says its going to cost more, the contractor is vilified, not the DoD drones who are actually responsible. There's a whole bunch of Kabuki Theatre much like the oil executives dragged before Congress to "explain" why gas costs $4 a gallon.
Actually, if they cancel the effort/order, expect the costs to go even higher if they decide to resurrect it.
In the meantime, the current aircraft continue to age and cost more to operate, maintain and upgrade.
I wonder why so many US Navy ships and aircraft carriers are sitting on the bottom of the oceans as artificial reefs and why the latest aircraft carriers cost around $13B... :pondering:
http://www.livescience.com/43931-navy-aircraft-carriers.html
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There is a whole entire logistical train that has to be established for the two aircraft to last their lifetime in service. Plus you have to train the aircrews, loggies and wrench turners the ins-and outs of the new platform. That costs money.
Some people don't seem to understand that.
Trump Is Right To Attack The Cost Of Air Force One Replacement Program (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed/2016/12/07/trumps-tweet-threatening-to-cancel-the-air-force-one-replacement-program-sends-many-messages/#5d9d34901694)
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The planes belong to the USAF, they are maintained and operated by the USAF. I think the USAF is up to the job without to much help from Boeing.
Boeing has on call, if not field support engineers/technicians much like Lockheed and other manufacturer's...there are a number of situations/things that are outside the scope of the maintainers and operators that require manufacturer support.
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You really are misinformed. Either that, or you're so in the tank for your idiot savior that you'll make any argument, however silly, to protect him.
^^^^^^^^ THIS!
You are going to experience A LOT of this from the Fascists For Trump from here on out.
Limbaugh already spear-heading the way.
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Boeing has on call, if not field support engineers/technicians much like Lockheed and other manufacturer's...there are a number of situations/things that are outside the scope of the maintainers and operators that require manufacturer support.
That's true of a lot of the planes Boeing has built for the military.
For that matter, cutting them off from the manufacturer is how we managed to ground the Iranian air force without firing a shot.
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Limbaugh already spear-heading the way.
Fat-heading, I'm sure you meant to say....
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Trump Is Right To Attack The Cost Of Air Force One Replacement Program (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed/2016/12/07/trumps-tweet-threatening-to-cancel-the-air-force-one-replacement-program-sends-many-messages/#5d9d34901694)
No he's not. And you're showing you have a as big...if not bigger...lack of knowledge of what goes into making a plane into AF1 than Trump does.
Here...let me educate you.
To say the president flies in a 747-200 does not paint the full picture. Air Force One's designation is actually VC-25A: a military plane.
The commercial skeleton is essentially custom-built to transform it, in the White House's words, into "a mobile command centre in the event of an attack on the United States".
The budget sheet for the replacement plane includes upgrading all the electrical systems to military grade and twin backup power systems, for example.
Those upgrades mean Air Force One is shielded against an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) - a type of energy burst that can damage most electronics. It's a side effect of nuclear weapons detonated at high altitude.
Other upgrades include military communications equipment and the "self-defence system".
That probably means electronic countermeasures to throw off missiles - though the US Air Force doesn't go into detail. Photos of the current Air Force One are shared by military aviation enthusiasts online, speculating on what exactly is behind all the panels on its tail section.
All of this doesn't come cheap. In fact, the first step in the process is to just buy two 747-8 commercial aircraft - only then does the actual design work begin.
Why two? Well, there's always the vice-president's plane - Air Force Two.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38236404
They don't just take a 747 off the assembly line...slap a coat of paint on it and add the Presidential Seal to it a voila AF1.
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I'll go with keeping the current AF1 flying and save the 4 billion we don't have. I'll bet there is still a lot of life left in those 2 747s. Plus Trump can use his own 757 in a pinch.
The current planes are 30 years old. The older a plane gets the more it costs to keep it flying. The longer they are down for maintenance. The FAA and the USAF has strict rules about this. 30 years of takeoffs...landings...flying at altitude wears out an airframe.
Do you know how many MILLIONS of miles and hours those airframes have on them?
And then there is the scarcity of parts for a plane that Boeing no longer makes.
Trump can NOT use his private BBJ 757. For one the Secret Service wouldn't allow it and they DO have the authority to tell him no. Secondly...unless you're really itching for President Mike Pence...the worst thing you could hope for Trump to do is jump in that 757...it's a big ol unguarded unsecured target that some jihadist would just LOVE to blow out of the sky.
You REALLY need to take a step back...take a breath and stop letting your knee jerk of anything and everything Trump get in the way of common sense and logic.
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I think he will lower the corporate tax rate across the board, but he also may make 'deals' with certain companies.
...only if said company is in a State governed by a Republican...or who at least holds Trump's brand of patriotism and vision.
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...only if said company is in a State governed by a Republican...or who at least holds Trump's brand of patriotism and vision.
EXACTLY CORRECT.
Lay off the Third Reich images - Mod1
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Secondly...unless you're really itching for President Mike Pence...the worst thing you could hope for Trump to do is jump in that 757...
Hmmmmm..... :pondering:
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EXACTLY CORRECT.
LOL!
I was thinking more in terms of a Democrat governor with a healthy dose of pragmatism.
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EXACTLY CORRECT.
Lay off the Third Reich images - Mod1
Those images were NOT from the Third Reich.
What about all the Obama/Hillary as Hitler memes? Were those verboten too - or just those that depict the GOP and Trump as fascists?
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Those images were NOT from the Third Reich.
What about all the Obama/Hillary as Hitler memes? Were those verboten too - or just those that depict the GOP and Trump as fascists?
If fascism comes to America it will come hiding behind Godwin's law.
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If fascism comes to America it will come hiding behind Godwin's law.
Pretty sure it already has.