The Briefing Room
General Category => Health/Education => Topic started by: rangerrebew on November 27, 2018, 04:38:07 pm
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Remedial Education Too Common and Costly, Report Says
A recently released report from the Center for American Progress has examined the remedial education system currently in place in the United States, calling it a “black hole†from which students are unlikely to pull themselves out of.
The report, “Remedial Education: The Cost of Catching Up,†states that millions of students enroll in college each year across the country and discover that they need to take remedial education courses. Teaching students what they should have learned in high school, these courses do not count toward a degree program, but still come with a financial price tag. Estimates suggest the courses are costing students and their families in all 50 states close to $1.3 billion each year.
The authors say that students who enroll in these courses are less likely to graduate.
https://www.educationnews.org/higher-education/remedial-education-too-common-and-costly-report-says/ (https://www.educationnews.org/higher-education/remedial-education-too-common-and-costly-report-says/)
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It's a shame that enormous classrooms, limited supplies and shitty pay are mitigating the quality of our public education.
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@Sanguine
This relates to what I was referring to on another thread about "School-to-work." If a student wants to break the predetermination that was made in Middle School that he/she isn't "college material," that student has to enter what this author refers to as a "black hole."
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It's a shame that enormous classrooms, limited supplies and shitty pay are mitigating the quality of our public education.
Then by all means, we must throw more money at Public Education. It's those skinflints in Congress...
Fortunately, the Teacher Union's pets are in charge now. Yaay us.
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@Sanguine
This relates to what I was referring to on another thread about "School-to-work." If a student wants to break the predetermination that was made in Middle School that he/she isn't "college material," that student has to enter what this author refers to as a "black hole."
A couple of reasons why this may not be so popular with the education establishment: students who have worked and are employable are less likely to accept leftist dogma, and they are also less malleable due to college being an option and not a given. They can walk away and still have a good, fulfilling life.
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A couple of reasons why this may not be so popular with the education establishment: students who have worked and are employable are less likely to accept leftist dogma, and they are also less malleable due to college being an option and not a given. They can walk away and still have a good, fulfilling life.
A great post! Thanks for answering my ping, because I really want to know what a real Educator thinks about all this.
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Then by all means, we must throw more money at Public Education. It's those skinflints in Congress...
Fortunately, the Teacher Union's pets are in charge now. Yaay us.
It beats the hell out of throwing more money at globalism.
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A great post! Thanks for answering my ping, because I really want to know what a real Educator thinks about all this.
You're so welcome. We are lucky to have a number of teachers, with real-life experience, here.
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It beats the hell out of throwing more money at globalism.
Throwing money at anything is still throwing it, and wasting it too. I choose "neither." The Department of Education (Carter's Folly) has proven that spending any money on a Federal level is guaranteed wastage. The States should handle it, they know their students and parents better than some DeeCee bureaucrat.
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The States should handle it, they know their students and parents better than some DeeCee bureaucrat.
I'm fine with the states handling it as long as certain standards are met, like the average child being able to read and write within a reasonable amount of time.
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I'm fine with the states handling it as long as certain standards are met, like the average child being able to read and write within a reasonable amount of time.
Generally, "handling it" includes the setting of the measures of success.
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I'm fine with the states handling it as long as certain standards are met, like the average child being able to read and write within a reasonable amount of time.
They were doing a reasonable job of that, before Carter's Folly decided it would get to dictate what those requirements are. Yet another example of why the Feds don't need to stick their fingers in everything.
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Generally, "handling it" includes the setting of the measures of success.
It's not unreasonable to tell the states that if they want to handle education they at least have to make sure kids are learning to read and write.
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It's not unreasonable to tell the states that if they want to handle education they at least have to make sure kids are learning to read and write.
If that was all Carter's Folly ever demanded we would've been fine. They now require a lot more, like Gender Studies classes in Secondary Education and quotas for hiring Educators.
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If that was all Carter's Folly ever demanded we would've been fine. They now require a lot more, like Gender Studies classes in Secondary Education and quotas for hiring Educators.
The only thing I might like to see mandated other than some very general academia standards is finance classes in high school so young people are taught to make more intelligent financial decisions.
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It's not unreasonable to tell the states that if they want to handle education they at least have to make sure kids are learning to read and write.
Under what authority does the federal government have to do that?
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Under what authority does the federal government have to do that?
Under the authority they have already assumed and that you have no means of taking away from them.
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****sheep****
The only thing I might like to see mandated other than some very general academia standards is finance classes in high school so young people are taught to make more intelligent financial decisions.
You will find out government bureaucrats will never satisfy themselves with those excellent goals. Many of us already know that, which is why we don't like Carter's Folly. They get paid for adding bells and whistles to the machine, not for running it efficiently. That describes almost every Federal Program in existence today.
Leave it to the States. If they don't meet the requirements you describe, then their own voters will straighten them out. It cannot be done from the outside.
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Under the authority they have already assumed and that you have no means of taking away from them.
I refuse to give up. I'm not wired that way, most Briefers aren't either. Giving up and knuckling under for Federal bureaucrats is an alien concept.
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Under the authority they have already assumed and that you have no means of taking away from them.
You're right; I should have included "legitimate".
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I refuse to give up. I'm not wired that way, most Briefers aren't either. Giving up and knuckling under for Federal bureaucrats is an alien concept.
Refusing to compromise for a better situation than currently exists does nothing to advance your goals. You're not going to completely shake off the feds.
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You're right; I should have included "legitimate".
That IS legitimate authority whether we like it or not. They'll kill us; there's nothing we can do.
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Refusing to compromise for a better situation than currently exists does nothing to advance your goals. You're not going to completely shake off the feds.
Probably not, but I will be damned if I accept the current level of usurpation either. The day I accept there's nothing I can do will be the day I pull up the drawbridge to my Castle.
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That IS legitimate authority whether we like it or not. They'll kill us; there's nothing we can do.
Bullshit! That is not legitimate.
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Bullshit! That is not legitimate.
It's legitimate enough for me. I'm not going to die on that hill.
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It's legitimate enough for me. I'm not going to die on that hill.
Be sure and give us some warning so we can stay out of your Congressional District. I find that if I surround myself with "giver-uppers" I become ticked off, and I want some peace in my life right now. I need friends who will stay in the foxhole, not run off like a coward.
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Be sure and give us some warning so we can stay out of your Congressional District. I find that if I surround myself with "giver-uppers" I become ticked off, and I want some peace in my life right now. I need friends who will stay in the foxhole, not run off like a coward.
It's not cowardice to assess a situation and determine you can't win. Sacrificing yourself to gain nothing is the wrong answer.
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It's not cowardice to assess a situation and determine you can't win. Sacrificing yourself to gain nothing is the wrong answer.
Whatever you say. My attitude is more like the statement in the upper-right corner of my signature block. Just don't expect me to agree with you about very much.
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It's not cowardice to assess a situation and determine you can't win. Sacrificing yourself to gain nothing is the wrong answer.
Not winning and gaining nothing are not the same thing.
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Under what authority does the federal government have to do that?
s of previous generations.
Student have performed wrse, and worse, over the deecades when the FedGov imposed "standards, for money"
College grades now, equal HS grads of previous generations and decades.
Common sense argues, if resultsareworse now, then look at how we did it, when resultswere better.
chmark, for research.
It is stated that 18-19 yr. old college fresman behave like 13-15yr. olds, from not long ago.
Education peak performance in America was in the 1960s, so that would be a great bench mark, to look at for "best practices."
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s of previous generations.
Student have performed wrse, and worse, over the deecades when the FedGov imposed "standards, for money"
College grades now, equal HS grads of previous generations and decades.
Common sense argues, if resultsareworse now, then look at how we did it, when resultswere better.
chmark, for research.
It is stated that 18-19 yr. old college fresman behave like 13-15yr. olds, from not long ago.
Education peak performance in America was in the 1960s, so that would be a great bench mark, to look at for "best practices."
Are you on your phone?
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s of previous generations.
Student have performed wrse, and worse, over the deecades when the FedGov imposed "standards, for money"
College grades now, equal HS grads of previous generations and decades.
Common sense argues, if resultsareworse now, then look at how we did it, when resultswere better.
chmark, for research.
It is stated that 18-19 yr. old college fresman behave like 13-15yr. olds, from not long ago.
Education peak performance in America was in the 1960s, so that would be a great bench mark, to look at for "best practices."
I agree very much with the part I highlighted. I will not accept that it is "impossible" because the Feds are already involved. It will be difficult because the centralized bureaucrats will fight common sense every step of the way, if it means diminishing their power and budgets.
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I agree very much with the part I highlighted. I will not accept that it is "impossible" because the Feds are already involved. It will be difficult because the centralized bureaucrats will fight common sense every step of the way, if it means diminishing their power and budgets.
There's no way you will completely remove federal involvement in education, ever. You might be able to mitigate a lot compared to how it is now, but it will never be gone entirely. There is progress that can be made.
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There's no way you will completely remove federal involvement in education, ever. You might be able to mitigate a lot compared to how it is now, but it will never be gone entirely. There is progress that can be made.
You live in a very gloomy and defeatist world.
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You live in a very gloomy and defeatist world.
The real world has real limitations. We can improve some things though.
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The real world has real limitations. We can improve some things though.
Now, something we can agree on. We need to improve education by restoring Constitutional boundaries and getting the federal government out of education.
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Now, something we can agree on. We need to improve education by restoring Constitutional boundaries and getting the federal government out of education.
The feds are an absolute limitation. We can't go back in time.
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The feds are an absolute limitation. We can't go back in time.
Now, there you go again, Dex. Stand up straight, clean your room and be of good cheer. We adults will try to fix things for you.
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Now, there you go again, Dex. Stand up straight, clean your room and be of good cheer. We adults will try to fix things for you.
(http://media.giphy.com/media/3R8OhehsI15yU/source.gif)
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The Constitution, does not even mention education.
And before the FedGov got involved, we had better education outcomes.
Few deny that a HS diploma from the 1930s-1960s equals or is even better, than a 4 yr. college degree, today.
Today a graduate degree is probably little ahead of a bachelors, from years ago.
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The feds are an absolute limitation. We can't go back in time.
Are you a climate scientist, or an educator, or both?
Inquiring minds, want to know about your CV?
IOW about your Qualifications, for the various subjects upon which you opine with such confidence?
As is true in employment, you can substitute work experience, for formal education.
As an aside, the fields of philosophy, math, sciences group with Logic; critical thinking.
They tend to NOT be based on "feelings," etc.
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@Cyber Liberty
@Dexter
@Sanguine
@Sanguine
This relates to what I was referring to on another thread about "School-to-work." If a student wants to break the predetermination that was made in Middle School that he/she isn't "college material," that student has to enter what this author refers to as a "black hole."
The most serious problems aren't overcrowding in poor high school classrooms with underpaid teachers. The two problems I have seen are as follows:
1) Some kids aren't college material and never will be--and yet they have been told that they need to go to college to have good life. If they want a six-figure income eventually, they'd better be encouraged to look elsewhere. (Sadly, a lot of young folks could make that kind of money with no prior training in the oil industry's presently available openings, but they can't pass a drug screen.)
2) Some kids, on the other hand, could become college students if they got better primary and secondary instruction in the classrooms we already have under the teachers we already have. (This second problem, related to but different from the first one, is a pervasive problem in America's culture, filtering into our schools from the top via progressive administrators and from the bottom via social and family decay. [For example, a California teacher once told me that the Constitution was taken completely out of California's schools years ago. Now California's schools are reportedly the worst in the nation.])
One of the saddest things about the black hole mess is that a lot of colleges are trying to suck kids out of the black holes of inadequate remedial education (and to make them paying customers in college) by seriously dumbing down the college curriculum--leaving the kids one degree older and deeper in debt.
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@the_doc Good post! Thanks for the ping to it!
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Are you a climate scientist, or an educator, or both?
Inquiring minds, want to know about your CV?
IOW about your Qualifications, for the various subjects upon which you opine with such confidence?
As is true in employment, you can substitute work experience, for formal education.
As an aside, the fields of philosophy, math, sciences group with Logic; critical thinking.
They tend to NOT be based on "feelings," etc.
Please feel free to put my overconfidence in its place with detailed explanations of anything I am blatantly wrong about. I offer no guarantees that I will agree with what you say, but I'll do my best.
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The most serious problems aren't overcrowding in poor high school classrooms with underpaid teachers.
"Most serious..."
So do we at least agree that those are factors that mitigate the quality of education?
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@Cyber Liberty
@Dexter
@Sanguine
completely out of California's schools years ago. Now California's schools are reportedly the worst in the nation.])
California schools were Number One in the mid 1960s. Today they come in below Number 45.
I had a debate once with a HS credentialed teacher. She had a M.Ed. degree, for masters in education.
She was expounding on the benefits of socialism, etc.(like Dexter does).
I asked her precisely the amount of school training in Economics, she had taken in undergrad and grad school?
She at least answered honestly, "None."
Traits they share include "confidence," perhaps from gold stars for merely participating, and
Arrogance, of the type lacking in self-awareness, of even seeing how others notice their ignorance.
Eith a little bit of "social sciences" knowledge, they think they know it all.
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Please feel free to put my overconfidence in its place with detailed explanations of anything I am blatantly wrong about. I offer no guarantees that I will agree with what you say, but I'll do my best.
I don't know your position on Anthropogenic Global Warming, so I certainly don't assume that you're a complete idiot, friend. wink777
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I dreamed of being an educator. My old man is one. It's too bleep up and it doesn't pay enough, though. I'm going to make sure my descendants don't have to worry about how they will afford an education or where they can afford to live. I can't achieve that as an educator.
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@Cyber Liberty
@Dexter
@Sanguine
completely out of California's schools years ago. Now California's schools are reportedly the worst in the nation.])
California schools were Number One in the mid 1960s. Today they come in below Number 45.
I had a debate once with a HS credentialed teacher. She had a M.Ed. degree, for masters in education.
She was expounding on the benefits of socialism, etc.(like Dexter does).
I asked her precisely the amount of school training in Economics, she had taken in undergrad and grad school?
She at least answered honestly, "None."
Traits they share include "confidence," perhaps from gold stars for merely participating, and
Arrogance, of the type lacking in self-awareness, of even seeing how others notice their ignorance.
Eith a little bit of "social sciences" knowledge, they think they know it all.
Ah, thanks for pointing out the quasi-exception to my generalization that we ought to be able to work with existing classrooms and existing teachers. Some of our HS teachers ought to be forced out of their jobs. (Better to have overcrowded classes than to have poison being spewed at impressionable kids. Better school administrators would find a way to fire flagrant Socialists in spite of teachers' unions.)
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Please feel free to put my overconfidence in its place with detailed explanations of anything I am blatantly wrong about. I offer no guarantees that I will agree with what you say, but I'll do my best.
I hope you know we're just funnin' ya....
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I dreamed of being an educator. My old man is one. It's too bleep up and it doesn't pay enough, though. I'm going to make sure my descendants don't have to worry about how they will afford an education or where they can afford to live. I can't achieve that as an educator.
I would never be a Teacher anyway. I'm not cut out for it. yogi555
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Please feel free to put my overconfidence in its place with detailed explanations of anything I am blatantly wrong about. I offer no guarantees that I will agree with what you say, but I'll do my best.
How about simply answering the question about YOUR education and work experience?
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How about simply answering the question about YOUR education and work experience?
I don't think it matters because when it comes to things like global warming I don't say anything that's not backed up by the words of experts.
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:happyhappy:
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I would never be a Teacher anyway. I'm not cut out for it. yogi555
I honestly think I could be a first-rate HS teacher, but the schools don't really need outstanding teachers. They just need pretty good teachers who are given guidelines--and in some cases, permission--to teach the right stuff and to uphold proper standards of learning. And they need to quit terrorizing the teachers by blaming them when completely rotten little Johnny refuses to learn to read. ("No child left behind"? I say teachers ought to be able to set the bar pretty high for passing and promotion. [Eventually, parents and kids would get the right idea.])
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Kinda puts a damper on the idea of the gov't taking over universities also, huh?
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I don't think it matters because when it comes to things like global warming I don't say anything that's not backed up by the words of experts.
@the_doc, @Dexter is a believer in AGW, because the "experts" say it is so. The fact that the evidence fails to back up the "expert consensus" and consensus is not how science works appears to not be a compelling argument for Dex. And, Dexter, please correct me if I have any of your opinion on the subject wrong.
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I would never be a Teacher anyway. I'm not cut out for it. yogi555
Because you would steal their PB&Js?
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I don't think it matters because when it comes to things like global warming I don't say anything that's not backed up by the words of experts.
What is your educational and work experience in the fields of science, math, statistics, probability,physics, meteorology, geology, oceanography?
How deo you determine an "expert" from a pseudo-scientist?
Do you accept opinions from the popular media,and politicians, as scientific fact, or do you have curiosity to search for the truth yourself?
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How deo you determine an "expert" from a pseudo-scientist?
A consensus doesn't make something a fact, but when the vast majority of the most qualified people are saying the same thing we should take them seriously.
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Kinda puts a damper on the idea of the gov't taking over universities also, huh?
Well, it should, but I find comments by left-wingers (not just here) distressing because nobody wants to learn that lesson. They all want to soldier forward for the ideological cause. Most common argument I hear? "Hey, the Feds are already in on it, so there's not a damned thing you righties can do about it...LOL! Suck it! (Cut to excerpt from Carole King's 'It's too late, baby!')"
My experiences (there's that word again) might explain some of my comments on this thread.
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A consensus doesn't make something a fact, but when the vast majority of the most qualified people are saying the same thing we should take them seriously.
Or, as I call it, the "Consensus Method of Scientific Discovery." If I could line up a group of 100 "Experts" and 90% of them agree the Earth is flat, then it's flat.
That is how seriously I take climate experts. The scientific methods I grew up with don't agree with Consensus Theory. The more experts are pushed at me without supporting evidence, the more I will be inclined to reject their analysis.
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Or, as I call it, the "Consensus Method of Scientific Discovery." If I could line up a group of 100 "Experts" and 90% of them agree the Earth is flat, then it's flat.
That is how seriously I take climate experts. The scientific methods I grew up with don't agree with Consensus Theory. The more experts are pushed at me without supporting evidence, the more I will be inclined to reject their analysis.
Does the heliocentrism consensus mean nothing? Might the sun actually revolve around the Earth?
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A consensus doesn't make something a fact, but when the vast majority of the most qualified people are saying the same thing we should take them seriously.
It seems to me that the vast majority of the most qualified people do not endorse AGW.
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It seems to me that the vast majority of the most qualified people do not endorse AGW.
Preposterous.
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Preposterous.
Nope. Doc is correct.
Most of the people who support AGW are NOT climate scientists, and those who do not support AGW do not make the news.
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Nope. Doc is correct.
Most of the people who support AGW are NOT climate scientists, and those who do not support AGW do not make the news.
You mean Neil DG Tyson the Astronomer and Bill Nye the Mechanical Engineer Guy don't count? Fooey!
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It's a shame that enormous classrooms, limited supplies and shitty pay are mitigating the quality of our public education.
Yeah.. and the average kid costs 10k per year in taxes
Funny thing, when I was on top of things, I paid $3500 per year for top-shelf private christian education for my kids (while still having to pay for crappy public education I wasn't using). The education was so far superior that when I fell ill and could no longer afford the christian school, and my kids transferred to public school, my kids coasted for, on average, two YEARS till the public school started covering things they hadn't already learned.
Then folks wonder why I am against government funded education...
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I'm fine with the states handling it as long as certain standards are met, like the average child being able to read and write within a reasonable amount of time.
That standard is not being met now. No where near it. What, some %45 graduating high school are functionally illiterate? You really want to keep throwing money down that hole?
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You mean Neil DG Tyson the Astronomer and Bill Nye the Mechanical Engineer Guy don't count? Fooey!
Exactly who I was thinking of! And, don't forget Al Gore and the Big 0.
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Now, there you go again, Dex. Stand up straight, clean your room and be of good cheer. We adults will try to fix things for you.
Been listening to Jordan Peterson I see... :D
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Exactly who I was thinking of! And, don't forget Al Gore and the Big 0.
Don't forget Moonbeam.
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Nope. Doc is correct.
Most of the people who support AGW are NOT climate scientists, and those who do not support AGW do not make the news.
I think the more important detail is that almost all climate scientists agree with AGW to varying degrees.
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Been listening to Jordan Peterson I see... :D
Somebody got it! :beer:
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I think the more important detail is that almost all climate scientists agree with AGW to varying degrees.
Doesn't matter who agrees. What matters is the data, and the data is not only questionable, and provably altered, but when all that is corrected, it shows *no* warming.
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Somebody got it! :beer:
@Sanguine
I have not read Freud, Jung, or Nietzsche in a very long time... And that just enough to solidify my opinion about the entire field of psychology (which isn't very high, to be kind).... JP makes me want to go read though it again to see where it he gets his thinking from.
Amazingly adroit thinker, and a pleasure to listen to.
@Dexter could get a lot from JP, I bet...
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@Sanguine
I have not read Freud, Jung, or Nietzsche in a very long time... And that just enough to solidify my opinion about the entire field of psychology (which isn't very high, to be kind).... JP makes me want to go read though it again to see where it he gets his thinking from.
Amazingly adroit thinker, and a pleasure to listen to.
@Dexter could get a lot from JP, I bet...
We all can get a lot from him.
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We all can get a lot from him.
Right.... But I was getting at the widely held belief that his main appeal is with millennial males.
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@Sanguine
I have not read Freud, Jung, or Nietzsche in a very long time... And that just enough to solidify my opinion about the entire field of psychology (which isn't very high, to be kind).... JP makes me want to go read though it again to see where it he gets his thinking from.
Amazingly adroit thinker, and a pleasure to listen to.
@Dexter could get a lot from JP, I bet...
Maybe Joel O'Steen? 888mouth
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Maybe Joel O'Steen? 888mouth
****slapping
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****slapping
:laugh:
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I think the more important detail is that almost all climate scientists agree with AGW to varying degrees.
Have you ever heard George Carlin's stand up on global warning? It makes as much sense to me as climate scientists. If you can't find it let me know...I'll find it. :beer: happy77
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"The Earth isn't going anywhere........WE ARE."
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I think the more important detail is that almost all climate scientists agree with AGW to varying degrees.
One Man's Discovery Sinks Major Climate Study 15:13 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpLVRPJnL4M#)
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@Sanguine
@Dexter could get a lot from JP, I bet...
However @Dexter seems to already know everything.
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However @Dexter seems to already know everything.
Yeah, that clears up a lot. 9999hair out0000
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However @Dexter seems to already know everything.
One point in his defense though, even though he seems impervious to some of the facts that have been presented, he is here after all, and maybe some of it is sinking in.
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I hope so @Sanguine I hope so.
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"The Earth isn't going anywhere........WE ARE."
It might be possible for us to mitigate the speed at which that happens. I think as long as humanity survives for another 300 years or so it's going to be fine for a very long time.
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However @Dexter seems to already know everything.
I bet you could teach me a shitload of things about the different jobs and experiences you've had in your life. I don't take your experience with life as lightly as you might assume.
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However @Dexter seems to already know everything.
That's right... But then what young feller doesn't?
@Dexter is alright. He has already figured out that the left is crazy... He's just hanging on for dear life through a paradigm shift in philosophy.
He's a thinker, and he's here. That says a lot.
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That's right... But then what young feller doesn't?
@Dexter is alright. He has already figured out that the left is crazy... He's just hanging on for dear life through a paradigm shift in philosophy.
He's a thinker, and he's here. That says a lot.
Some part of me definitely sensed that I was missing something. I'm probably still missing things, but I doubt I'll end up thinking like most of you do in the end. I believe sanity can be found in between extreme ideas.
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Some part of me definitely sensed that I was missing something. I'm probably still missing things, but I doubt I'll end up thinking like most of you do in the end. I believe sanity can be found in between extreme ideas.
Truth is not found in compromise. Ergo, sanity, which is impossible without truth, is likewise.
It is the truth of a thing that matters. After you know what the truth is, then a proper decision can be made. Most of what you think can be found in compromise is utterly useless, and sometimes damaging... And only popular because the truth is not known.
Especially in this age of propaganda, the principle things will lead the way.
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It's a shame that enormous classrooms, limited supplies and shitty pay are mitigating the quality of our public education.
It's a shame that instead of educating our children reading, writing, mathematics, history and the sciences our overpaid(for what we receive) administrators and educators are busy indoctrinating our children in socialism, Gaia worship and perversion. Not to mention all the resources stolen from legal Americans and spent on third world invaders. But hey that's just my take on it. I take it from your response you side with the socialists? Because all I can remember for decades is more and more and more money thrown at education from when I was a child and the end result after all that money? Our student have known less and been less prepared not just for higher education, but for life, year after year after year!