The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: mystery-ak on February 14, 2018, 08:10:12 pm
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Report of Active Shooter Being Investigated at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland: BSO
Authorities are responding to the school, and telling people to stay away from the area amid reports of victims
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Fox news reporting via WSVN that at least 20 people have been hurt at Marjory Stoneman Highschool in Coral Springs. Police are telling teachers and students still barricaded inside to stay where they are.
Police are currently moving into the building.
No link yet.
ETA: FBI are now responding to the scene.
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Breaking story. Reports of victims
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/14/florida-high-school-under-lockdown-after-reports-shooter-victims-police-say.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/14/florida-high-school-under-lockdown-after-reports-shooter-victims-police-say.html)
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From CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/florida-high-school-shooting/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/florida-high-school-shooting/index.html)
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PARKLAND, FLA. (WSVN) - Deputies are responding to an active shooter at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland who may have injured as man as 20 people.
Margate Fire Rescue has deemed this a mass causality incident, which means at least 20 people have been injured.
The Broward Sheriff’s Office sent out a tweet Wednesday, just before 3 p.m., calling this an “active shooter†situation.
As 7 Skyforce arrived on the scene, one person was seen being wheeled into a Coral Springs Fire Rescue ambulance, but he was on his phone.
However, soon after, at least four other people were spotted surrounded by fire rescuers, at the corner of an intersection at the north part of the school
The extent of injuries remain unknown.
Several students could be seen walking and running along the road, past those injured.
Coral Springs Police are asking people to avoid the area, as a perimeter is in place and the evacuation continues.
https://wsvn.com/news/local/bso-active-shooter-at-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-school-at-least-20-injured/
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fOX...20 TO 50 INJURED
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UPDATE: MASS CASUALTY EVENT – 20-50 victims being reported – Active shooter at Florida high school…
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Dear God.
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shooter still at large
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CBS News
â€Verified account @CBSNews
3m3 minutes ago
UPDATE: At least 20 victims in "mass casualty incident" at Parkland, Florida, high school, according to Margate Fire Department http://cbsn.ws/2sxJGOs (http://cbsn.ws/2sxJGOs)
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Local Fox has identified the shooter...is a student and was in class today...they are not releasing the name
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Police have identified a person of interest who is a student and was in class earlier at Marjory Stoneman Douglas. He is on the run.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XOiH55jsQFY
Fox News live link for those not near TV
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Good grief.
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Jonathan Serrie Retweeted
Coral Springs Police
â€Verified account @CoralSpringsPD
2m2 minutes ago
Police are working an active shooter scene, and ask that if you are in touch with your student you ask that they remain calm and barricaded until police come to their room, this is for everyone's safety. Do NOT call our 911 or non-emergency number unless it is an emergency.
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Shep Smith said all hospitals in the area have been notified to expect casualties.
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ABC News
â€Verified account @ABC
44s44 seconds ago
Mother says daughter at high school keeps texting her, "telling me to stay away. Be safe mom, you stay away. And I'm telling her, no, Crystal, I'm your mother, I'm not staying away." http://
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Fellow student told reporter the person of interest is a student who is 20 or 21?
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(https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_07/2328996/180214-florida-school_1_581b05420934c03ae1344d798f9f4389.nbcnews-ux-1024-900.jpg)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWBe-9KWsAAypAb.jpg)
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Caleb Hull
â€Verified account @CalebJHull
9m9 minutes ago
CNN reporting the shooter pulled the fire alarm and opened fire as students were evacuating. They have identified the shooter, but he is on the run.
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A student id's the shooter, possibly Nicholas Cruz, red hair with freckles, ROTC program. Apparently the cops are looking for Cruz.
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In custody about 20 minutes ago.
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Unofficial....shooter in custody per Fox
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Donald J. Trumpâ€Verified account @realDonaldTrump
My prayers and condolences to the families of the victims of the terrible Florida shooting. No child, teacher or anyone else should ever feel unsafe in an American school.
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Person of interest is in custody per FNC.
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Sen Bill Nelson...many people have been killed...per Fox
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Sen. Bill Nelson on @MSNBC says there a "number of fatalities" in Parkland, FL school shooting
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Child said he pulled the fire alarm and started shooting the kids as they evacuated.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWBkw6pUQAAwPaJ.jpg)
Coral Springs PD with suspect in custody. AP reporting shooters name is Nicholas Cruz.
being taken into custody
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Surprised he was taken alive and looks relatively uninjured. These types usually off themselves.
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“Nick Cruz in custody†Police scanner.
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Trace Gallagher reporting suspect had gun group information on his social media.
Look for the usual rhetoric from the left later today and tomorrow.
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Sen. Bill Nelson on @MSNBC says there a "number of fatalities" in Parkland, FL school shooting
Bill Nelson is not usually a good source of information so hopefully he's wrong.
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Meanwhile, predictably, the left is calling for "gun control," as if the perpetrator wouldn't have used a homemade bomb instead.
The only way to stop school shootings is to get rid of the public schools, which are corrupted anyway.
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“Nick Cruz in custody†Police scanner.
Of course he'd be male. It's ALWAYS male. *****rollingeyes*****
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Of course he'd be male. It's ALWAYS male. *****rollingeyes*****
@jmyrlefuller
Most mass murders are committed by males. There are a few females but they are the exception. Since we're all the same I'm not sure why this would be.
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Broward Sheriff
â€Verified account @browardsheriff
5m5 minutes ago
So far we have at least 14 victims. Victims have been and continue to be transported to Broward Health Medical Center and Broward Health North hospital.
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Meanwhile, predictably, the left is calling for "gun control," as if the perpetrator wouldn't have used a homemade bomb instead.
The only way to stop school shootings is to get rid of the public schools, which are corrupted anyway.
Supposedly he was online last week posting about making bombs.
Also read he was taken into custody at his home and not the school.
:shrug:
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Bill Nelson is not usually a good source of information so hopefully he's wrong.
School superintendent just said multiple fatalities.
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@jmyrlefuller
Most mass murders are committed by males. There are a few females but they are the exception. Since we're all the same I'm not sure why this would be.
I think Aileen Wornos was about the only exception. As for school shootings, the only female I can think of is the one in "I don't like Mondays"
There was a female serial killer in the 1800s named Belle Gunness, she used poison.
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I think Aileen Wornos was about the only exception. As for school shootings, the only female I can think of is the one in "I don't like Mondays"
There was a female serial killer in the 1800s named Belle Gunness, she used poison.
Of course there was also Lizzie Borden.
But that was all before cable, Internet and the 24-hour news cycle.
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I think Aileen Wornos was about the only exception. As for school shootings, the only female I can think of is the one in "I don't like Mondays"
There was a female serial killer in the 1800s named Belle Gunness, she used poison.
List is much longer of course most do not use a firearm. I'd post a list but dont want to mess up this thread.
Hopefully things arent as bad as they look.
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Suspect in ambulance on the way to hospital. Was placed inside ambulance outside of the school parking lot making the “taken into custody at home†incorrect.
Psychotic or injured while being taken into custody?
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List is much longer of course most do not use a firearm. I'd post a list but dont want to mess up this thread.
Hopefully things arent as bad as they look.
I'm sorry if I went off topic too. This whole idea of children shooting children (under 18 or 21) is so beyond sad
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According to law enforcement sources, the shooter, former student Nicolas de Jesus Cruz, is in custody. Helicopter footage shortly before 4 showed police frisking a handcuffed young man outside a squad car. Dressed in a maroon shirt and dark trousers, he was placed in the squad car as TV choppers filmed the scene. He gave no visible sign of being injured, but authorities have said Cruz was transported to Broward Health North.
A teacher at the school told the Miami Herald that Cruz, 19, had been identified as a potential threat to fellow students in the past.
“We were told last year that he wasn’t allowed on campus with a backpack on him,†said math teacher Jim Gard, who said the former student suspected in the shootings had been in his class last year. “There were problems with him last year threatening students, and I guess he was asked to leave campus.â€
Gard says he believes the school administration had sent out an email warning teachers that the student had made threats against other in the past and that he should not be allowed on the campus with a backpack. Another student interviewed on the scene by Channel 7 said the student had guns at home.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article200094039.html#storylink=cpy (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article200094039.html#storylink=cpy)
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Nicolas de Jesus Cruz
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Likely known to the FBI like 9/11/2001, Boston Marathon, Orlando Florida, San Bernardino CA, Garland TX, and others?
WTF good does it know to even identify potential problem people, if nothing is done??
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Nicolas de Jesus Cruz – Florida shooter Instagram page scrubbed
(https://s20.postimg.org/x74n8f5nh/CRUZ.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/s8h4tw1uh/)
http://www.pacificpundit.com/2018/02/14/nicolas-de-jesus-cruz-florida-shooter-instagram-page-scrubbed/ (http://www.pacificpundit.com/2018/02/14/nicolas-de-jesus-cruz-florida-shooter-instagram-page-scrubbed/)
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http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/breaking-instagram-account-fl-shooter-nicholas-cruz/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/breaking-instagram-account-fl-shooter-nicholas-cruz/)
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http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/breaking-instagram-account-fl-shooter-nicholas-cruz/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/breaking-instagram-account-fl-shooter-nicholas-cruz/)
The physical appearance in the middle photo is consistent with that of the alleged shooter as seen in the aerial photos of his arrest.
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(http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/1518644672693.jpg)
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/breaking-instagram-account-fl-shooter-nicholas-cruz/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/breaking-instagram-account-fl-shooter-nicholas-cruz/)
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Turn the sound on at video.
Video of inside school shooting
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/963888920764313602
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More photos here: https://heavy.com/news/2018/02/nicolas-nikolas-nick-cruz-florida-school-shooter-gunman-instagram/
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He was indeed arrested at his home.
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Turn the sound on at video.
Video of inside school shooting
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/963888920764313602
Horrifying
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CNN is reporting at least 16 dead.
888cryingkitty 888cryingkitty 888cryingkitty
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CNN is reporting at least 16 dead.
888cryingkitty 888cryingkitty 888cryingkitty
That number is almost certain to go higher.
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That number is almost certain to go higher.
That is why I made crying cats emojis. I'm crying too.
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Fox is saying the same..16 dead.... 8888crybaby
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Why is Fox letting Bill Nelson ramble on and on and on and on and zzzzzzzz.....
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That number is almost certain to go higher.
Then lower again, just like Columbine.
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Why is Fox letting Bill Nelson ramble on and on and on and on and zzzzzzzz.....
Let him ramble. People need to realize what a fool he is.
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CNBC raised it to 17.
Just verified by Fox.
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DEMOCRAT!
Cruz, Nicolas was born 26 May 1998, is male, registered as Florida Democratic Party, residing at 803 W Oakland Park Blvd, Apt A 12, Oakland Park, Florida 33311.
Florida voter ID number 124308057. His telephone number is 1-754-368-1309. This is the most recent information, from the Florida voter list as of 31 December 2017.
Previous information:
30 November 2016 voter list: Nicolas De Jesus Cruz, 803 W Oakland Park Blvd, APT A 12, Oakland Park, FL 33311 Florida Democratic Party.
31 October 2016 voter list: Nicolas De Jesus Cruz, 803 W Oakland Park BLVD, APT 2 A, Oakland Park, FL 33311 Florida Democratic Party. 3348841
http://www.bcpa.net/RecInfo.asp?URL_Folio=494222AA0120 (http://www.bcpa.net/RecInfo.asp?URL_Folio=494222AA0120)
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Let him ramble. People need to realize what a fool he is.
Now it's Maura Liasson *****rollingeyes*****
Seriously Liberals will never let the Eco of the shots fade or the bodies grow cold before they begin their incessant call for "more gun control".
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And, so far as I know, no one has yet mentioned that there was apparently no one on the scene who had the ability to shoot back.
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Fox says the sheriff indicated it was an ar15
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Now it's Maura Liasson *****rollingeyes*****
Seriously Liberals will never let the Eco of the shots fade or the bodies grow cold before they begin their incessant call for "more gun control".
And unless something reasonable is proposed, they will inevitably win.
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And, so far as I know, no one has yet mentioned that there was apparently no one on the scene who had the ability to shoot back.
Yeah, we’re all going to send our teens to school packing heat. Idiot.
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The sheriff's triplets go to that school.
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Yeah, we’re all going to send our teens to school packing heat. Idiot.
Didn't say a word about students did I?
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And unless something reasonable is proposed, they will inevitably win.
Reasonable eh? That's always the word. What law would prevent a mass murderer.
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I did hear one hero story earlier in the day of a Physical Education teacher that jumped in front of the students, taking the bullets, trying to give more time to escape.
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Didn't say a word about students did I dumb ass?
Read what you wrote. You said anybody, that includes students.
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Read what you wrote a$$hole. You said anybody, that includes students.
I knew exactly who he meant.
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Read what you wrote. You said anybody, that includes students.
Yes it does include students as well as facilty and staff members genius!
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Read what you wrote a$$hole. You said anybody, that includes students.
@Oceander
Seriously take it off thread
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I knew exactly who he meant.
I did as well. Students did not cross my mind.
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Just one more example to illustrate to a people refusing to recognize what is happening - that the civil society is unraveling...and at a breakneck pace.
But of course this is what happens when a culture discards and shits on the very foundations that established it in the first place.
Get used to it.
We go further downhill from here as the days unwind.
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@Oceander
Seriously take it off thread
You’re right, I am better than that. And him. You’d better edit your quote of my post.
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You’re right, I am better than that. And him. You’d better edit your quote of my post.
So you say councilor. Other's opinions may differ.
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Reasonable eh? That's always the word. What law would prevent a mass murderer.
Mock all you want. You have two choices: take the lead and meaningfully participate in developing the legislation that will inevitably be passed, or wake up one day to find yourself subject to hard left laws that simply confiscate your weapons.
Take your choice.
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So you say councilor. Other's opinions may differ.
I didn’t notice you realizing that using the a-word was beneath you and voluntarily editing your post to take it out, so yes, on the basis of objective fact I’m better than you.
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Mock all you want. You have two choices: take the lead and meaningfully participate in developing the legislation that will inevitably be passed, or wake up one day to find yourself subject to hard left laws that simply confiscate your weapons.
Take your choice.
How about we stop making schools free fire zones for sickos like this?
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This is a tragic and disturbing day..this is every parents nightmare....I for one can't stop crying thinking of the families whose child isn't coming home tonight...
I would appreciate some respect for each other here and stop the name calling and bickering....please
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How about we stop making schools free fire zones for sickos like this?
How about we put some limits on what sickos can buy when it comes to acquiring deadly weapons?
Why is it one needs a license to drive a car, but not to own a firearm?
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I didn’t notice you realizing that using the a-word was beneath you and voluntarily editing your post to take it out, so yes, on the basis of objective fact I’m better than you.
I just went back and looked again to make sure. It wasn't me that wrote that word. Physician heal thyself!
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How about we put some limits on what sickos can buy when it comes to acquiring deadly weapons?
Why is it one needs a license to drive a car, but not to own a firearm?
A little thing called the second amendment to the Constitution. You are free to pass another amendment to overcome that if you choose.
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I just went back and looked again to make sure. It wasn't me that wrote that word. Physician heal thyself!
You said “dumb assâ€. So yes, you did start. And now you’re simply adding hypocrisy to your long list of failings by lying about it.
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A little thing called the second amendment to the Constitution. You are free to pass another amendment to overcome that if you choose.
The second amendment does not prohibit licensing. You really need to start reading the Constitution as it was written, not the one your unicorn-infested mind keeps coming up with.
And speaking of the actual Second Amendment, those who cherish it should be leading the movement for some sort of tighter restrictions, because we are only a few more school massacres away from a liberal fomented move to remove it from the Constitution. And if the amendments defenders continue to make the argument that the second amendment makes us powerless to put limits on this stuff, that movement will be successful.
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You said “dumb assâ€. So yes, you did start. And now you’re simply adding hypocrisy to your long list of failings by lying about it.
I do believe that the first slur uttered was "idiot" and it wasn’t by me!
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How about we put some limits on what sickos can buy when it comes to acquiring deadly weapons?
Why is it one needs a license to drive a car, but not to own a firearm?
Background checks are mandatory now. I doubt a card issued by the state will make any difference.
This problem won't be solved with more laws, although I'm sure more are coming.
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People thought this guy might do something like this. So sad. My prayers to those affected.
https://twitter.com/WJXTvic/status/963899957559390210
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The second amendment does not prohibit licensing. You really need to start reading the Constitution as it was written, not the one your unicorn-infested mind keeps coming up with.
I've read it many times and interpret the English language quite well thank you. Particularly words like "shall not be infringed".
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I do believe that the first slur uttered was "idiot" and it wasn’t by me!
I said the a-word. Geez you are such a lying hypocrite.
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I've read it many times and interpret the English language quite well thank you. Particularly words like "shall not be infringed".
No, you don’t. Reasonable restrictions are constitutional. They’re constitutional for speech, including political speech, and they will be constitutional on the Second Amendment.
But you stick with sniffing unicorn farts if it makes you feel better about yourself.
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Background checks are mandatory now. I doubt a card issued by the state will make any difference.
This problem won't be solved with more laws, although I'm sure more are coming.
You might be surprised.
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@Oceander @Bigun I don't give a damn who started it, take it elsewhere.
Don't even reply to this post, just take it elsewhere.
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Oceander and Bigun...MOVE ON....
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The second amendment does not prohibit licensing. You really need to start reading the Constitution as it was written, not the one your unicorn-infested mind keeps coming up with.
And speaking of the actual Second Amendment, those who cherish it should be leading the movement for some sort of tighter restrictions, because we are only a few more school massacres away from a liberal fomented move to remove it from the Constitution. And if the amendments defenders continue to make the argument that the second amendment makes us powerless to put limits on this stuff, that movement will be successful.
@Oceander
How would a license have stopped this?
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(http://i66.tinypic.com/deu1rm.png)
This pic is over at TOS, supposedly of Cruz demonstrating communist and antifa sympathies, but the source is questionable. Laura Loomer's Twitter page.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LauraLoomer (https://mobile.twitter.com/LauraLoomer)
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If he was wearing a gas mask, how did the kids immediately know who it was?
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No, you don’t. Reasonable restrictions are constitutional. They’re constitutional for speech, including political speech, and they will be constitutional on the Second Amendment.
Reasonable restrictions like a prohibition on automatic weapons? Mandatory background checks? Ten day waiting periods following purchases?
The Federal Firearms Act? Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968? Gun Control Act of 1968? Firearm Owners Protection Act? Undetectable Firearms Act? Gun-Free School Zones Act? Gun-Free School Zones Act? Federal Assault Weapons Ban? Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act?
How much safer have these reasonable laws made us?
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It has been proven over and over again that the only thing that can stop a madman with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Perhaps that will sink in some day.
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How about we put some limits on what sickos can buy when it comes to acquiring deadly weapons?
Why is it one needs a license to drive a car, but not to own a firearm?
Where does the Constitution discuss travel methods and the regulation thereof?
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Reasonable restrictions like a prohibition on automatic weapons? Mandatory background checks? Ten day waiting periods following purchases?
The Federal Firearms Act? Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968? Gun Control Act of 1968? Firearm Owners Protection Act? Undetectable Firearms Act? Gun-Free School Zones Act? Gun-Free School Zones Act? Federal Assault Weapons Ban? Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act?
How much safer have these reasonable laws made us?
I live in AZ. "Reasonable gun control" means good marksmanship and a steady squeeze of the trigger when required. No license required.
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It has been proven over and over again that the only thing that can stop a madman with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Perhaps that will sink in some day.
It isn't going to sink in. It is only going to get worse. There are at least two generations, maybe three, and another one coming up that have no clue, no clue, what the word "respect" means.
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It isn't going to sink in. It is only going to get worse. There are at least two generations, maybe three, and another one coming up that have no clue, no clue, what the word "respect" means.
Plenty of kids know what respect is. My kids friends are always respectful.
It goes to parenting, keeping God in their life, and giving kids love.
This was obviously a troubled kid. People like him get the idea for this because of this news coverage. They want the attention.
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How about we put some limits on what sickos can buy when it comes to acquiring deadly weapons?
Why is it one needs a license to drive a car, but not to own a firearm?
Criminals steal cars and don't register their firearms.
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@bigheadfred
First and only warning. Exercise some self restraint or I'll do it for you.
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I live in AZ. "Reasonable gun control" means good marksmanship and a steady squeeze of the trigger when required. No license required.
I live in CA. "Reasonable gun control" is an ever evolving constantly widening concept.
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Criminals steal cars and don't register their firearms.
And criminals don't tend to care about things like insurance or a driver's license either.
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(http://i66.tinypic.com/deu1rm.png)
This pic is over at TOS, supposedly of Cruz demonstrating communist and antifa sympathies, but the source is questionable. Laura Loomer's Twitter page.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LauraLoomer (https://mobile.twitter.com/LauraLoomer)
Claims they’re against fascism, demands end to retweets that make them look bad *****rollingeyes*****
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Plenty of kids know what respect is. My kids friends are always respectful.
It goes to parenting, keeping God in their life, and giving kids love.
This was obviously a troubled kid. People like him get the idea for this because of this news coverage. They want the attention.
Exactly so. What I want to know is why, WHY, in a country that is so rich, that so many people are troubled?
It troubles me. And it flat pisses me off. My rants aren't necessarily directed at any one of you.
I get defense spending. But maybe a whole damn bunch of that defense spending could be sent in a direction called the draft. If you ain't got nothing to do but cause mayhem maybe a nice 4 year stint in the military would give you some direction.
And I mean the MILITARY @txradioguy dreams of.
How many people out there reading this experienced corporal punishment in school? Where did that go?
It went from getting it kicked for effing up to getting a damn prize for effing up.
And I am tired of it.
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And criminals don't tend to care about things like insurance or a driver's license either.
Yep. Our local PD focused on roll throughs, taillights, and expired tags. They ended up netting a bunch of bench warrants and arrests with drug paraphernalia in plain sight. Most didn’t have drivers licenses either. There were also a few driving with unsecured children in the vehicle. Laws against all of these.
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I'm pretty sure Laguna Beach Antifa is a parody account. There are several, e.g., Nantucket Antifa, that make fun of the lunatic left.
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Exactly so. What I want to know is why, WHY, in a country that is so rich, that so many people are troubled?
It troubles me. And it flat pisses me off. My rants aren't necessarily directed at any one of you.
I get defense spending. But maybe a whole damn bunch of that defense spending could be sent in a direction called the draft. If you ain't got nothing to do but cause mayhem maybe a nice 4 year stint in the military would give you some direction.
And I mean the MILITARY @txradioguy dreams of.
How many people out there reading this experienced corporal punishment in school? Where did that go?
It went from getting it kicked for effing up to getting a damn prize for effing up.
And I am tired of it.
This guy is a psycho mass murderer. Psycho mass murderers are not what we need in our military.
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Exactly so. What I want to know is why, WHY, in a country that is so rich, that so many people are troubled?
It troubles me. And it flat pisses me off. My rants aren't necessarily directed at any one of you.
I get defense spending. But maybe a whole damn bunch of that defense spending could be sent in a direction called the draft. If you ain't got nothing to do but cause mayhem maybe a nice 4 year stint in the military would give you some direction.
And I mean the MILITARY @txradioguy dreams of.
How many people out there reading this experienced corporal punishment in school? Where did that go?
It went from getting it kicked for effing up to getting a damn prize for effing up.
And I am tired of it.
I don't know how we got to this place that going into a school and killing kids solves your problems and make you feel better.....
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Yep. Our local PD focused on roll throughs, taillights, and expired tags. They ended up netting a bunch of bench warrants and arrests with drug paraphernalia in plain sight. Most didn’t have drivers licenses either. There were also a few driving with unsecured children in the vehicle. Laws against all of these.
@goodwithagun I watch LivePD every weekend and I see what you say is true. Busted headlight the driver gets pulled over...no license no insurance... probable cause and next thing you know they find drugs or discover the driver or passenger have warrants.
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I'm pretty sure Laguna Beach Antifa is a parody account. There are several, e.g., Nantucket Antifa, that make fun of the lunatic left.
True, like the Boston Antifa that has tricked people a few times.
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And I am tired of it.
I'm tired too, Fred. So tired.
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He went in with a gas mask, and pulled the fire alarm to try to get the most students out in the hallway.
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12 bodies in the school, unidentified, so I gather that is 12 of the 17, 5 identified.
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This guy is a psycho mass murderer. Psycho mass murderers are not what we need in our military.
Right.
Exactly right.
We need soldiers handing out candy on the city streets when their brothers on patrol can't get any air support when they are being decimated.
Why do so many soldiers come home from war with battle fatigue, shell shock, PTSD, or whatever else they want to call it? Because THEY WERE TRAINED TO BECOME PSYCHO MASS MURDERERS. And then we shit on them when they come home.
GOOD deal.
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Right.
Exactly right.
We need soldiers handing out candy on the city streets when their brothers on patrol can't get any air support when they are being decimated.
Why do so many soldiers come home from war with battle fatigue, shell shock, PTSD, or whatever else they want to call it? Because THEY WERE TRAINED TO BECOME PSYCHO MASS MURDERERS. And then we shit on them when they come home.
GOOD deal.
Fred, this guy would have washed out of basic in the first two-three weeks.
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Right.
Exactly right.
We need soldiers handing out candy on the city streets when their brothers on patrol can't get any air support when they are being decimated.
Why do so many soldiers come home from war with battle fatigue, shell shock, PTSD, or whatever else they want to call it? Because THEY WERE TRAINED TO BECOME PSYCHO MASS MURDERERS. And then we shit on them when they come home.
GOOD deal.
Hey train wreck, this is not your station. Good night.
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Let's please stay on the subject of this shooting.
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Fred, this guy would have washed out of basic in the first two-three weeks.
IF he managed to get in to begin with.
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I don't know how we got to this place that going into a school and killing kids solves your problems and make you feel better.....
It doesn't make me feel better.
The point I am trying to make is WHY we are spending TRILLIONS of dollars trying (without even trying) to change the world at large when we are cutting spending and kissing ass to NOT change the world we live in.
Why don't we sell transgenger bathrooms in the ME? Do you get the point?
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IF he managed to get in to begin with.
The guy had so many warning flags on him he could never, ever be classified as "nekkid."
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The evil will remain around us. At all times.
We just need to identify them as best we can.
Thinking guns are evil is exactly what the Evil One would want us to do.
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Hey train wreck, this is not your station. Good night.
Hey, inmate. Cell up.
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It doesn't make me feel better.
The point I am trying to make is WHY we are spending TRILLIONS of dollars trying (without even trying) to change the world at large when we are cutting spending and kissing ass to NOT change the world we live in.
Why don't we sell transgenger bathrooms in the ME? Do you get the point?
I hear you loud and clear Fred.
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Some of the kids interviewed were remarkably calm and collected, despite the things they saw.
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Hey, inmate. Cell up.
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:
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Why don't we sell transgenger bathrooms in the ME? Do you get the point?
We get the point Fred. We do.
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You’re right, I am better than that. And him. You’d better edit your quote of my post.
You need to prove that you are better than that.
People are responding in shock and horror and trying to think of how this could have been prevented.
There may be some ridiculous suggestions but this is not the time to fight about them.
Sunset High School in Oak Cliff has metal detectors the kids have to pass through to get in.
A few armed patrol guys wouldn't hurt. This was a big school.
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$1,000,000 homes in the area, Cruz worked in a $ dollar store per one student.
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The guy had so many warning flags on him he could never, ever be classified as "nekkid."
I’m trying to figure out why he told @txradioguy to get up and do something about it while ranting on an inner webs forum while he’s literally not doing anything about it. :silly:
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How about we put some limits on what sickos can buy when it comes to acquiring deadly weapons?
Why is it one needs a license to drive a car, but not to own a firearm?
That argument is both trite and untrue.
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IF he managed to get in to begin with.
If you're in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the shrink wherever you are, just walk in say "Shrink, You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant." And walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both bleep and they won't take either of them. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement. And that's what it is, the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar!
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The second amendment does not prohibit licensing. You really need to start reading the Constitution as it was written, not the one your unicorn-infested mind keeps coming up with.
Well with that said, and if we take that advice - I think we should start with the root cause of violence - and require government licensing of speech, press and every and all communication vehicles.
This people are too sensitive and stupid to be trusted with reading or believing anything not approved safe for society by the government.
And speaking of the actual Second Amendment, those who cherish it should be leading the movement for some sort of tighter restrictions, because we are only a few more school massacres away from a liberal fomented move to remove it from the Constitution.
Of course. And likewise, those who love free speech, press and religious exercise should be leading a movement for some sort of tighter restrictions on their rights as well, because we are only a few more Antifa, Racist, BLM and homosexual wedding cake refuseniks away from a despotic move to remove that Amendment from the Constitution as well.
So we might as well take the first big step towards making that an inevitability by doing what the Left wants to do right now anyway.
At least then we can deceive ourselves say it was all for the better-good.
Meanwhile, Liberty dies to thunderous applause.
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This guy is a psycho mass murderer. Psycho mass murderers are not what we need in our military.
No, we do not.
As far as corporal punishment is concerned, it was not done in my family or in my school. It makes things worse, not better.
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If you're in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the shrink wherever you are, just walk in say "Shrink, You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant." And walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both bleep and they won't take either of them. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement. And that's what it is, the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar!
Fred, that was a cynical depiction of life with the draft during Vietnam.
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:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:
You are a teacher. Unless I am mistaken. Tell me how you are/aren't handcuffed and in chains--when it comes to disciplining or flagging a kid?
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Fred, that was a cynical depiction of life with the draft during Vietnam.
uh huh
What is the cynical depiction of life in the military when even @txradioguy wants/needs to retire and get away from it?
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Right.
Exactly right.
We need soldiers handing out candy on the city streets when their brothers on patrol can't get any air support when they are being decimated.
Why do so many soldiers come home from war with battle fatigue, shell shock, PTSD, or whatever else they want to call it? Because THEY WERE TRAINED TO BECOME PSYCHO MASS MURDERERS. And then we shit on them when they come home.
GOOD deal.
Hey, Fred. All of us are upset by this. It is horrible. But you need to settle down.
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Meanwhile, Liberty dies to thunderous applause.
There are a few of us standing in the schoolhouse door.
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No, we do not.
As far as corporal punishment is concerned, it was not done in my family or in my school. It makes things worse, not better.
Well I think there is something to be said about a nun and a ruler...and the fear of God
(http://hdmarketingdesign.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Habit-on-Nun-w-ruler.jpg)
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Well with that said, and if we take that advice - I think we should start with the root cause of violence - and require government licensing of speech, press and every and all communication vehicles.
This people are too sensitive and stupid to be trusted with reading or believing anything not approved safe for society by the government.
Of course. And likewise, those who love free speech, press and religious exercise should be leading a movement for some sort of tighter restrictions on their rights as well, because we are only a few more Antifa, Racist, BLM and homosexual wedding cake refuseniks away from a despotic move to remove that Amendment from the Constitution as well.
So we might as well take the first big step towards making that an inevitability by doing what the Left wants to do right now anyway.
At least then we can deceive ourselves say it was all for the better-good.
Meanwhile, Liberty dies to thunderous applause.
/snicker
It’s illegal to yell “fire†in a crowded theater. That is an infringement on free speech. Has liberty died? Only an idiot would think so.
You have two choices: lead on the question of tighter restrictions on guns, or wake up one day living under liberal left wing gun laws that strip you of your weapons, period.
It doesn’t matter how much you dislike it, it’s going to happen, the only question is whether you’re going to have a say in the laws that result, or whether you’re going to let liberals enact those laws.
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You are a teacher. Unless I am mistaken. Tell me how you are/aren't handcuffed and in chains--when it comes to disciplining or flagging a kid?
For as long as there’s been humans on the earth there’s been psychos. The more our population increase, the more psychos there’s going to be. You can’t spank the psycho out of a mass murderer. This thread is about a mass murder, not corporal punishment.
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Some of the kids interviewed were remarkably calm and collected, despite the things they saw.
They really were but I'm afraid it will set in later. Hope not.
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No, we do not.
As far as corporal punishment is concerned, it was not done in my family or in my school. It makes things worse, not better.
If that were true there would be NO NEED for a military at all.
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uh huh
What is the cynical depiction of life in the military when even @txradioguy wants/needs to retire and get away from it?
It's because he's spent decades doing it, and I don't think we should rubbish that effort. He's retiring the old fashioned way...he earned it.
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It has been proven over and over again that the only thing that can stop a madman with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Perhaps that will sink in some day.
Absolutely. If just some teachers and staff comfortable with firearms and trained in their use were in schools we would not see these go down, because these mad men are cowards.
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Well I think there is something to be said about a nun and a ruler...and the fear of God
(http://hdmarketingdesign.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Habit-on-Nun-w-ruler.jpg)
She does look scary.
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Absolutely. If just some teachers and staff comfortable with firearms and trained in their use were in schools we would not see these go down, because these mad men are cowards.
And it will remain true after all the rules are made and laws passed.
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They really were but I'm afraid it will set in later. Hope not.
Maybe they are in shock or what I fear the most is that they are used to this scenario and are becoming numb to the violence and it's effect.
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If that were true there would be NO NEED for a military at all.
I know it's a lot to ask but what does not beating up your kids, or having teachers do it, have to do with the military?
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For as long as there’s been humans on the earth there’s been psychos. The more our population increase, the more psychos there’s going to be. You can’t spank the psycho out of a mass murderer. This thread is about a mass murder, not corporal punishment.
For as long as there’s been humans on the earth there’s been psychos.
BULLSHIT.
What makes for a psycho mass murderer?
Use some teaching skills.
ANSWER MY QUESTION.
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She does look scary.
Don't mess with The Penguin. Mrs. Liberty has told me stories....
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She does look scary.
Different times...
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Maybe they are in shock or what I fear the most is that they are used to this scenario and are becoming numb to the violence and it's effect.
I think a lot of them are in shock right now but I'm afraid there will be nightmares tonight.
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Don't mess with The Penguin. Mrs. Liberty has told me stories....
I have my own and Mrs Liberty is probably right...lol
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Reading about a school shooting or watching it on TV is not kin to experiencing it yourself.
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If that were true there would be NO NEED for a military at all.
So your idea is to spank the jihad out of ISIS? They behead nuns, not hold their knuckles out for their just desserts.
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I find it amusing to watch a people in a culture that has discarded and rejected its foundational morality, and bedrock of civil society - stagger around bewildered and in shock, wracking their minds trying to figure out why such evil can happen with such increasing frequency and horror.
I have to laugh at all the analysis that skirts around or avoids the actual root cause.
As I said earlier - this kind of crap is just beginning. Get used to it. As we become more corrupt and vicious, a tighter noose of despotism will be administered by a tyrannical government empowered by a people who demand the illusion of safety and security in the name of freedom. They are in reality - the finishers of liberty existing in this land.
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Absolutely. If just some teachers and staff comfortable with firearms and trained in their use were in schools we would not see these go down, because these mad men are cowards.
Right. Not.
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How the bleep did we get from a mass killing to corporal punishment? I thought the gun control angle was dumb as Hell.
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****sheep****
Reading about a school shooting or watching it on TV is not kin to experiencing it yourself.
You are right..but it is now becoming the norm not the rarity...
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I find it amusing to watch a people in a culture that has discarded and rejected its foundational morality, and bedrock of civil society - stagger around bewildered and in shock, wracking their minds trying to figure out why such evil can happen with such increasing frequency and horror.
I have to laugh at all the analysis that skirts around or avoids the actual root cause.
As I said earlier - this kind of crap is just beginning. Get used to it. As we become more corrupt and vicious, a tighter noose of despotism will be administered by a tyrannical government empowered by a people who demand the illusion of safety and security in the name of freedom. They are in reality - the finishers of liberty existing in this land.
That post renews my decision to have you on ignore. You are just too dam depressing.
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For as long as there’s been humans on the earth there’s been psychos.
BULLSHIT.
What makes for a psycho mass murderer?
Use some teaching skills.
ANSWER MY QUESTION.
Your question is not what this thread is about. We’ve been told to stay on topic. If you have any evidence to share regarding human psychological disorders throughout history as related to punishment, then that would fit the topic.
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Absolutely. If just some teachers and staff comfortable with firearms and trained in their use were in schools we would not see these go down, because these mad men are cowards.
We might find out, someone on the staff did have a firearm. That school had 4,000 students they said on Fox; at this point, it looks like 17 have died (perhaps a teacher or two is in that count). One can see how it would be difficult to be fully secured.
Something about this attack is real disturbing, even with strict gun laws, these kinds of incidences are one offs, yes, maybe metal detectors would have been needed. Even if the school had very good security, a gunman can always look for another soft target.
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The amount of denial on this thread is palpable. Gun control laws are coming people; the only question is whether you’ll make the effort to have an effect on those laws, or will simply abdicate your responsibility so you can bitch when liberals enact the laws they would prefer.
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It's because he's spent decades doing it, and I don't think we should rubbish that effort. He's retiring the old fashioned way...he earned it.
In no way do I mean any disrespect for his service. But he can read the writing.
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****sheep****
You are right..but it is now becoming the norm not the rarity...
Is it really?
I don't think so. It's worse now because these psycho kids have weapons of mass destruction but I still think it's rare.
When it happens, it consumes the media and social media and we all get into a funk.
I think there will be changes in Florida school system as a result of this. Metal detectors; guards at the doors and a few armed guys roaming around.
But I don't think it's prevalent. It just seems that way.
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/snicker
It’s illegal to yell “fire†in a crowded theater.
It's also illegal to shoot up a crowded school. Didn't stop the perp - and no further restrictions, banning or outright stripping us of guns is going to stop such people from committing mass murder when they want to.
You have two choices: lead on the question of tighter restrictions on guns, or wake up one day living under liberal left wing gun laws that strip you of your weapons, period.
It doesn’t matter how much you dislike it, it’s going to happen, the only question is whether you’re going to have a say in the laws that result, or whether you’re going to let liberals enact those laws.
Both choices end up in the same exact place. So go ahead and turn in your guns now (if you even have any) and get it over with. As you say - it is going to happen anyway - so why settle for pretend illusions of safety with more regulations, bans and infringements? Do it right the first time and get where this will all end up in short order since you insist we have to surrender it piecemeal or have it forcibly taken from us.
Oh, and we should also do this with the Second Amendment also. You might sleep better at night since you do not trust your fellow citizens with their rights or liberty.
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Okay, I guess I am wrong. I didn't realize there are so many school shootings but I looked it up and Myst is right.
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In no way do I mean any disrespect for his service. But he can read the writing.
He can read it better than I. I've lead a pretty sheltered life, he's been out there so I defer. I defer to you too, Fred, so I'd like to see you two respect one another for your lives.
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The amount of denial on this thread is palpable. Gun control laws are coming people; the only question is whether you’ll make the effort to have an effect on those laws, or will simply abdicate your responsibility so you can bitch when liberals enact the laws they would prefer.
Individual states legislate, but in these one-off cases, I think it's difficult to legislate law.
I do know, it was posted here during one of the last shootings, in general, states that legislate more against guns, have lower rates but there are a number of variables. Florida has a murder problem, it's also like the 3 most populated state.
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The amount of denial on this thread is palpable. Gun control laws are coming people; the only question is whether you’ll make the effort to have an effect on those laws, or will simply abdicate your responsibility so you can bitch when liberals enact the laws they would prefer.
You can stop trashing the posters on this thread for failing to take off in your direction off topic any time now.
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Different times...
uh huh
Too bad you didn't get the chance to raise your kids the way you were raised.
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uh huh
Too bad you didn't get the chance to raise your kids the way you were raised.
Do any of us, really?
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uh huh
Too bad you didn't get the chance to raise your kids the way you were raised.
but I did...my boys are in their 30's.....they were lucky..they had a normal, disciplined childhood.
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How did this kid have possession of an AR-15, also one of the students interviewed by Tucker said, she vaguely knew of this Cruz fellow, knew his brother or something and the brother said they'd hear this Nicolas Cruz dry firing the gun at night. Spookie stuff.
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but I did...my boys are in their 30's.....they were lucky..they had a normal, disciplined childhood.
Me, too. My children were disciplined, sort of, but they were both very satisfactory kids who never got into any real trouble and they are now excellent adults.
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How did this kid have possession of an AR-15, also one of the students interviewed by Tucker said, she vaguely knew of this Cruz fellow, knew his brother or something and the brother said they'd hear this Nicolas Cruz dry firing the gun at night. Spookie stuff.
Apparently Cruz was obsessed with firearms.
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Has Adam Schiff blamed this on Russia funding the NRA yet?
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/05/adam-schiff-russians-promoted-2nd-amendment-so-americans-would-kill-each-other/ (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/05/adam-schiff-russians-promoted-2nd-amendment-so-americans-would-kill-each-other/)
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... Something about this attack is real disturbing, even with strict gun laws, these kinds of incidences are one offs, yes, maybe metal detectors would have been needed. Even if the school had very good security, a gunman can always look for another soft target.
I posted this up thread @TomSea .... If the information in this article is true, then what's upsetting is that this kid slipped through the psych evaluation net ....
According to law enforcement sources, the shooter, former student Nicolas de Jesus Cruz, is in custody. Helicopter footage shortly before 4 showed police frisking a handcuffed young man outside a squad car. Dressed in a maroon shirt and dark trousers, he was placed in the squad car as TV choppers filmed the scene. He gave no visible sign of being injured, but authorities have said Cruz was transported to Broward Health North.
A teacher at the school told the Miami Herald that Cruz, 19, had been identified as a potential threat to fellow students in the past.
“We were told last year that he wasn’t allowed on campus with a backpack on him,†said math teacher Jim Gard, who said the former student suspected in the shootings had been in his class last year. “There were problems with him last year threatening students, and I guess he was asked to leave campus.â€
Gard says he believes the school administration had sent out an email warning teachers that the student had made threats against other in the past and that he should not be allowed on the campus with a backpack. Another student interviewed on the scene by Channel 7 said the student had guns at home.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article200094039.html#storylink=cpy (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article200094039.html#storylink=cpy)
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Has Adam Schiff blamed this on Russia funding the NRA yet?
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/05/adam-schiff-russians-promoted-2nd-amendment-so-americans-would-kill-each-other/ (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/05/adam-schiff-russians-promoted-2nd-amendment-so-americans-would-kill-each-other/)
It's all in the timing....
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I posted this up thread @TomSea .... If the information in this article is true, then what's upsetting is that this kid slipped through the psych evaluation net ....
Thanks, very informative.
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I posted this up thread @TomSea .... If the information in this article is true, then what's upsetting is that this kid slipped through the psych evaluation net ....
The guy's story reminds me of Jared Loughner, the loony who killed a Federal Judge and shot that congresswoman in the face in Tucson. He was barred from the local Community College, but was allowed to own guns because the local corruptocrat Sheriff was best buddies with his Mom.
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Right.
Exactly right.
We need soldiers handing out candy on the city streets when their brothers on patrol can't get any air support when they are being decimated.
Why do so many soldiers come home from war with battle fatigue, shell shock, PTSD, or whatever else they want to call it? Because THEY WERE TRAINED TO BECOME PSYCHO MASS MURDERERS. And then we shit on them when they come home.
GOOD deal.
Fred, love you man, but you're FOS if you think our military are trained to become psycho mass murderers. That's total bullshit.
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He can read it better than I. I've lead a pretty sheltered life, he's been out there so I defer. I defer to you too, Fred, so I'd like to see you two respect one another for your lives.
Well, actually, the way I see it is we are both looking at the same thing correctly. Merely at slightly different angles. He has lived a proscribed disciplined life.
He lives in a box. A tightly wrapped box.
But here is the way I look at it. Do you know what a box is? A piece of paper is a box. 3d. An envelope is a box. A board is a box. I build a box out of a board, a drawer, a door, a cabinet, that is a box. That goes in a room that is a box, that goes in house that is a box. That goes on a street that is a box. That goes on a box, of streets. In a city of boxes. Filled with people who are so boxed in they can't see the prison walls.
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Fred, love you man, but you're FOS if you think our military are trained to become psycho mass murderers. That's total bullshit.
Tell me the military history of your family. If they had one.
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That one female student said a student next to her got shot and that she heard a bullet go by her head, her mascara was all running, pretty heavy stuff.
If this guy was expelled, it sounded like there was enough to make it necessary he got counseling, maybe he was counseled but it sounds like he should have gotten a pyscological evaluation.
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This guy was 20, right?
Has it been revealed yet whether he used handguns or a rifle?
If it was a handgun, doesn't one have to be 21 to legally purchase one (I could be wrong)?
If that's the case, how did he obtain them?
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This guy was 20, right?
Has it been revealed yet whether he used handguns or a rifle?
If it was a handgun, doesn't one have to be 21 to legally purchase one (I could be wrong)?
If that's the case, how did he obtain them?
@Fishrrman
Is 19 years old. I didn't know he was that old.
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The guy's story reminds me of Jared Loughner, the loony who killed a Federal Judge and shot that congresswoman in the face in Tucson. He was barred from the local Community College, but was allowed to own guns because the local corruptocrat Sheriff was best buddies with his Mom.
I think our "leaders" may want to figure out what step this school missed--they identified the shooter as a threat early on, they sent an email blast about not letting him back on campus with a backpack---yet he comes back without any interference with a large gun and kills 17 people.
What the hell did this school either choose not to do or miss entirely? Somewhere in this mix--if you're going to send a blast email warning teachers of possible violence -- shouldn't someone have requested a psych evaluation? This is the discussion we as a nation should be having. When and how do we initiate a mental health evaluation--without turning it into a political or social weapon.
And shouldn't this kid have been kept off campus? How would this be accomplished?
Someone's got to start thinking outside the box--and I'm not talking new gun laws. They don't work for sh*t. Just ask Chicago.
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Well, actually, the way I see it is we are both looking at the same thing correctly. Merely at slightly different angles. He has lived a proscribed disciplined life.
He lives in a box. A tightly wrapped box.
But here is the way I look at it. Do you know what a box is? A piece of paper is a box. 3d. An envelope is a box. A board is a box. I build a box out of a board, a drawer, a door, a cabinet, that is a box. That goes in a room that is a box, that goes in house that is a box. That goes on a street that is a box. That goes on a box, of streets. In a city of boxes. Filled with people who are so boxed in they can't see the prison walls.
Dude.
Put this on repeat, go back to 1987, and take a break for awhile.
Band - Living In A Box
Song - Living In A Box
Album - Living In A Box
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=guBsPkUkPQg
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@Fishrrman
I asked the same question, the guy had an AR15, I don't know what he did his shooting with, it sounds like he had a few firearms.
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Tell me the military history of your family. If they had one.
Use the medication of your choice but do it now. I recommend Valium.
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Sports events, airports, they have metal detectors, there are some things that can be done. I'm sorry, that a school might need such.
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Tell me the military history of your family. If they had one.
4 brothers - all served, none drafted, 3 retired from the military. Mom retired as a Col. Both sons served, one Marine and one Airman, who will retire from the military in due time. I'm the widow of a Viet Nam combat vet. Also not drafted. That do it for you?
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The Bath School disaster, sometimes known as the Bath School massacre, was a series of violent attacks perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe on May 18, 1927 in Bath Township, Michigan, which killed 38 elementary schoolchildren and six adults and injured at least 58 other people.[Note 1] Kehoe killed his wife and firebombed his farm, then detonated an explosion in the Bath Consolidated School before committing suicide by detonating a final device in his truck.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
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You people have been so brainwashed.
WTF is an ACE dogfigther pilot?
"a flying ace is a fighter pilot who shoots down at least five enemy aircraft". Mass murderer. One at a time. Ony a seasoned "psycho" could accomplish that.
Oh. But we HAD to do it, to stop the enemy menace.
Bullshit.
Stop applying the word "psycho". STOP APPLYING THE WORD "PSYCHO".
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It's fairly easy to get a carry permit in Texas. You do have to attend a certain number of hours in a classroom, learning about gun use. My husband thought it was valuable training. His teacher emphasized this mantra. Live as though you didn't have a gun. Don't go into dangerous situations just because you are armed.
Then one had to go to the range and prove you could load a gun and hit the target a reasonable number of times.
The problem with gun laws is ... guess what? Criminals and crazy people don't obey them.
I would much rather there had been an armed citizen at that school who could have taken that little creep out. I hate that he is going to jail ... unharmed ... and he will get so much more publicity now and get to air his little grievances. I wish he had been riddled with bullets.
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4 brothers - all served, none drafted, 3 retired from the military. Mom retired as a Col. Both sons served, one Marine and one Airman, who will retire from the military in due time. I'm the widow of a Viet Nam combat vet. Also not drafted. That do it for you?
That should do it!
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4 brothers - all served, none drafted, 3 retired from the military. Mom retired as a Col. Both sons served, one Marine and one Airman, who will retire from the military in due time. I'm the widow of a Viet Nam combat vet. Also not drafted. That do it for you?
And they all described in detail every day of their combat experience.
Or did they all ride a desk?
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4 brothers - all served, none drafted, 3 retired from the military. Mom retired as a Col. Both sons served, one Marine and one Airman, who will retire from the military in due time. I'm the widow of a Viet Nam combat vet. Also not drafted. That do it for you?
Respect. Thank you.
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You people have been so brainwashed.
WTF is an ACE dogfigther pilot?
"a flying ace is a fighter pilot who shoots down at least five enemy aircraft". Mass murderer. One at a time. Ony a seasoned "psycho" could accomplish that.
Oh. But we HAD to do it, to stop the enemy menace.
Bullshit.
Stop applying the word "psycho". STOP APPLYING THE WORD "PSYCHO".
Where is the Mod??? You were warned once but you haven't stopped.
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@Sanguine, @mystery-ak
My point is how many vets NEVER talked about their actual combat experiences? How Many actual combat vets that were/are shunned. Homeless.. Psychos? EVERYONE of them. By, and not mine, standards.
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And they all described in detail every day of their combat experience.
Or did they all ride a desk?
Really Fred? That's what you're going to go with?
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And they all described in detail every day of their combat experience.
Or did they all ride a desk?
That's enough fred....Sanquine didn't have to answer you at all and if you don't stop this now I will give you the night off.
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Where is the Mod??? You were warned once but you haven't stopped.
Stick your opinion back up in your comfort zone.
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The second amendment does not prohibit licensing. You really need to start reading the Constitution as it was written, not the one your unicorn-infested mind keeps coming up with.
Shall Not Be Infringed already means No Licensing.
Here's how it works.
The Founding Dads placed the Bill of Rights in the hands of God for good and just reason.
They Intended, by vesting those Unalienable Rights in the Almighty, to place them so Far Above ANY human being's reach as to make it impossible to Infringe on them.
in·fringe
inˈfrinj/
verb
verb: infringe; 3rd person present: infringes; past tense: infringed; past participle: infringed; gerund or present participle: infringing
actively break the terms of (a law, agreement, etc.).
"making an unauthorized copy would infringe copyright"
synonyms: contravene, violate, transgress, break, breach; More
disobey, defy, flout, fly in the face of;
disregard, ignore, neglect;
go beyond, overstep, exceed;
infract
"the statute infringed constitutionally guaranteed rights"
antonyms: obey, comply with
act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on.
"his legal rights were being infringed"
synonyms: restrict, limit, curb, check, encroach on; More
As for driver's licenses, that won't wash.
The Constitution charges the Postal Service with creating and maintaining Post Roads to deliver the mail.
Because No One Person could afford to build the roads themselves.
Therefore, the Govt. does have the authority to License users because the Govt must own the roads, not the Individual.
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That should do it!
If it doesn't nothing will.
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Right.
Exactly right.
We need soldiers handing out candy on the city streets when their brothers on patrol can't get any air support when they are being decimated.
Why do so many soldiers come home from war with battle fatigue, shell shock, PTSD, or whatever else they want to call it? Because THEY WERE TRAINED TO BECOME PSYCHO MASS MURDERERS. And then we shit on them when they come home.
GOOD deal.
@bigheadfred you are FOS! And before you ask me too, I served and I come from almost 100 years of Marines, so bite me.
Those that have PTSD do so because war is hell. Period end of story. They have PTSD exactly for the opposite of the bullshit you spouted here: More often than not it’s Because they HAVE their humanity and they lament those they could NOT save.
Take tha douchebaggery elsewhere champ.
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Run away. Answer the question. How many combat vets never talked about their experiences. To anyone.
Brainwashed.
Don't bother kicking me out.
If you can't see what I am trying to tell you, none of you are worth it.
A good man with a gun will stop a bad man.
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@bigheadfred you are FOS! And before you ask me too, I served and I come from almost 100 years of Marines, so bite me.
Those that have PTSD do so because war is hell. Period end of story. They have PTSD exactly for the opposite of the bullshit you spouted here: More often than not it’s Because they HAVE their humanity and they lament those they could NOT save.
Take tha douchebaggery elsewhere champ.
Right.
What is yor kill count?
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Yeah, we’re all going to send our teens to school packing heat. Idiot.
Are you seriously suggesting that?
Do you realize how stupid you sound?
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Mock all you want. You have two choices: take the lead and meaningfully participate in developing the legislation that will inevitably be passed, or wake up one day to find yourself subject to hard left laws that simply confiscate your weapons.
Take your choice.
You very openly reject to answer what the poster asked.
Why?
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Right.
What is yor kill count?
Okay say goodnight fred...I am tired of you questioning our service members...
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I didn’t notice you realizing that using the a-word was beneath you and voluntarily editing your post to take it out, so yes, on the basis of objective fact I’m better than you.
Such an assertion is beyond the realm of sensibility.
You are a disgrace.
A self-indulgent remark like that is worthy of a narcissist like your mentor, Mr Obama.
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The amount of denial on this thread is palpable. Gun control laws are coming people; the only question is whether you’ll make the effort to have an effect on those laws, or will simply abdicate your responsibility so you can bitch when liberals enact the laws they would prefer.
They will be over your dead body which is undefended.
My body is well protected.
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I don't know how we got to this place that going into a school and killing kids solves your problems and make you feel better.....
We got here because kids didn't get enough or the right kind of Attention.
Most shooters assume or expect they themselves will be killed in the Act, at some point.
They also want a high body count: Attention Seeking.
They do not want to go out/be killed, without 1st killing enough other people to get that Attention, no matter how negative, from the Nation.
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4 brothers - all served, none drafted, 3 retired from the military. Mom retired as a Col. Both sons served, one Marine and one Airman, who will retire from the military in due time. I'm the widow of a Viet Nam combat vet. Also not drafted. That do it for you?
Wow. God bless them all! (And you too!)
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Knock off the ghoulish gun control bullshit. Don't make me come back there.
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Wow....here we go again....another mass murder. I'm for gun rights, but personally I can't see a use in owning a semi-automatic weapon. Just not much use for hunting. If they go away... oh well....
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Wow. God bless them all! (And you too!)
Thanks, MusicLady. And, I did nothing. It was all them.
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I do believe that the first slur uttered was "idiot" and it wasn’t by me!
Seems familiar.
Look, @Bigun, if he hasn't been censured for his near endless, scurrilous slanders and in your face insults already, don't expect it to ever happen.
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Thanks, MusicLady. And, I did nothing. It was all them.
No...you did your share, you supported them.
The hardest job in the military is the wife/mother who waits at home.
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And I thank God that both my kids home school the grandkids.
Just wish Sen Cruz had been successful in getting the 529 for home schoolers.
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Wow....here we go again....another mass murder. I'm for gun rights, but personally I can't see a use in owning a semi-automatic weapon. Just not much use for hunting. If they go away... oh well....
I imagine in the near future we might hear something very similar:
Here we go again... more hate speech and hate beliefs. I'm all for free speech and press, but personally I can't see a use in sharing ideas or beliefs that others find offensive on public media. Just not much use for political expression. If the First Amendment goes away...oh well...
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I'll be thrilled if we can get through this night with any of the first 10 Amendments intact....
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Learning more about the shooter's background. He was adopted and his mother died last year. Considered an outcast at school, no friends, made awkward sexual advances, ostracized. Showed off about guns, followed Iragi and Syrian fighters on social media. Researched bomb-making.
Kids at school joked that if there was ever a shooting at the school, it'd be him. Expelled from school and not allowed on campus with a backpack. School Superintendent denied he was on anyone's radar earlier today.
This could have been prevented.
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I'll be thrilled if we can get through this night with any of the first 10 Amendments intact....
Amendments or Commandments?
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Learning more about the shooter's background. He was adopted and his mother died last year. Considered an outcast at school, no friends, made awkward sexual advances, ostracized. Showed off about guns, followed Iragi and Syrian fighters on social media. Researched bomb-making.
Kids at school joked that if there was ever a shooting at the school, it'd be him. Expelled from school and not allowed on campus with a backpack. School Superintendent denied he was on anyone's radar earlier today.
This could have been prevented.
Agreed; this family's story sounds sad to begin with. The father died a few years ago; they lost their home last year; and then the mother died. The shooter was involved in JROTC and very interested in guns. He went to an alternative school and then worked at Dollar Tree, where he was well-liked.
There is a younger brother named Zachary, also adopted -- I wonder where he is and if he's okay. Their mother used to ask the local police to "talk sense" to the brothers; they obviously needed help. This is all per local news and the NYTimes.
Obviously none of this excuses what he did.
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Apparently Cruz was obsessed with firearms.
So am I and the others on gun forums I am a member of. But we don't dream of doing bad things with them. These are good and decent people. This crazy bastard had a sick and twisted mind. It wasnt his obsession with guns that triggered this.
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Agreed; this family's story sounds sad to begin with. The father died a few years ago; they lost their home last year; and then the mother died. The shooter was involved in JROTC and very interested in guns. He went to an alternative school and then worked at Dollar Tree, where he was well-liked.
There is a younger brother named Zachary, also adopted -- I wonder where he is and if he's okay. Their mother used to ask the local police to "talk sense" to the brothers; they obviously needed help. This is all per local news and the NYTimes.
Obviously none of this excuses what he did.
Thanks for the extra details about his family. But, yes, nothing excuses his actions.
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Wow....here we go again....another mass murder. I'm for gun rights, but personally I can't see a use in owning a semi-automatic weapon. Just not much use for hunting. If they go away... oh well....
I have a number of semi-automatics, and they're not for shooting Bambi. Went I was younger and hunted, I preferred single-action for that.
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I saw he had a picture of a dead frog on his instagram, this was on fox and he delved into things like this, I don't know the limit to it but obviously, such things as this indicated someone that needed to be looked at seriously.
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This right here is why I dislike the cops. They bust into wrong peoples houses serving warrants late at night and shoot them and their dog because they can't read numbers on a mailbox, yet this piece of human debris is perfectly intact when they arrest him......
(https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5a84e1aed030721b008b48b1-750-375.jpg)
Where's the split lip, busted up eye, broken limbs and fingers? They could have taken this MoFo down harder than hell and roughed him up. Utter bullshit.
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I have a number of semi-automatics, and they're not for shooting Bambi. Went I was younger and hunted, I preferred single-action for that.
Man alive, this thread really went off course.
@Sanguine
I personally want to thank you for your family's commitment to our Country. Your husband made the ultimate sacrifice. I would not have known without this thread going off the rails. You are so special.
I, myself, have been shooting since childhood. It has always been a great sport. Some people may not think it is a sport, but shooting and archery are both Olympiad sports.
I loved shooting skeet and trap. Won a few prizes.
Then I got into combat shooting in California. I was taught by a Master. Great sport.
I have never killed anything with any gun. I do not need to do that. I can walk into a grocery store, and buy what I want without having to kill. But someone did.
My prayers are out for the community in Florida. This is awful.
I am sure we will know more in the days to come. I will not guess on what should have happened.
God bless you all! But don't you ever think you will get between me and some of my collectibles. Beautiful works of art.
@mystery-ak
I bet we could share a whole lot of stuff about the nuns, the ones who wore habits. I went to Catholic School from Kindergarten until I graduated from high school. Don't mess with the nuns! LOL!
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It wasnt his obsession with guns that triggered this.
I agree, but that's not the point. It's that his obsession with guns facilitated this. If you cannot prevent an unstable mind, the best you can do is take away the tools he uses.
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/snicker
Yeah, the man's a banana short of a bunch.
It’s illegal to yell “fire†in a crowded theater. That is an infringement on free speech. Has liberty died? Only an idiot would think so.
Extremism in the defense of liberty doesn't really do the cause of liberty any favors.
You have two choices: lead on the question of tighter restrictions on guns, or wake up one day living under liberal left wing gun laws that strip you of your weapons, period.
It doesn’t matter how much you dislike it, it’s going to happen, the only question is whether you’re going to have a say in the laws that result, or whether you’re going to let liberals enact those laws.
What's this, the fourth school shooting this year? Yeah, you're right, tighter restrictions on guns are coming, that are only the act of a majority of the peoples' representatives away. Registration. Insurance. The regulation of markets. All Constitutional, based on the say so of Justice Scalia. Those who want those laws to be reasonable, limited and efficacious should consider being part of the solution.
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$1,000,000 homes in the area, Cruz worked in a $ dollar store per one student.
I think he was kicked out of HS during his junior year. A HS dropout, working at the $ dollar store, in a neighborhood of $ million homes, might have some "income inequality" issues, resentments.
He was nineteen. Think how he might be at 53 ?? Lacking judgment, self-control, fly off the handle.
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How did this kid have possession of an AR-15, also one of the students interviewed by Tucker said, she vaguely knew of this Cruz fellow, knew his brother or something and the brother said they'd hear this Nicolas Cruz dry firing the gun at night. Spookie stuff.
This "kid" is 19 which is a legal adult.
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Yeah, you're right, tighter restrictions on guns are coming, that are only the act of a majority of the peoples' representatives away. Registration. Insurance. The regulation of markets. All Constitutional, based on the say so of Justice Scalia. Those who want those laws to be reasonable, limited and efficacious should consider being part of the solution.
Do that and you bought yourself an ugly war.
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How about we put some limits on what sickos can buy when it comes to acquiring deadly weapons?
Why is it one needs a license to drive a car, but not to own a firearm?
Because the requirement for a drivers license has not stopped people from driving without one, nor has it stopped vehicles from being stolen nor misused.
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Because the requirement for a drivers license has not stopped people from driving without one, nor has it stopped vehicles from being stolen nor misused.
True enough - but you will behold that cars are not manufactured for the purpose of killing - even though they kill far more people in this country than guns ever have.
We should apply similar silly arguments the Left makes with guns over vehicles. Due the result of so many fatalities, we cannot ignore the crisis of vehicular deaths in this country therefore the proposed reasonable restrictions are offered: While driving is a privilege and not a right - we think no one needs a car because there is public transportation available and we have to cut down on global warming; the government should regulate what kind of car you are permitted to purchase and own with a 30 day waiting period before being allowed to get behind the wheel; mandated insurance before you can drive it under police supervision; there is absolutely no need whatsoever for the general public to own assault trucks and self-driving automatic SUVs - we have professional truckers and utility companies that are the only ones who should be permitted to operate those; keys to your vehicle will need to be kept under lock and key at your local police station; and absolutely no person should be permitted to own a car if children under 26 live in the home, that is a form of child abuse and an inherent danger to every child in the neighborhood.
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What's this, the fourth school shooting this year? Yeah, you're right, tighter restrictions on guns are coming, that are only the act of a majority of the peoples' representatives away. Registration. Insurance. The regulation of markets. All Constitutional, based on the say so of Justice Scalia. Those who want those laws to be reasonable, limited and efficacious should consider being part of the solution.
Meh.....seems to me the first thing that will be suggested by Pres. Trump will be to hired armed personnel to protect the 'assets'....just like any bank does since Jesse James.
Any school construction going forward should have a secure, fenced campus and choke points to enter with vehicles.
IMO, that's a lot more sensible than gun control.
Dan Bongino....talks about how to protect schools here. http://www.facebook.com/dan.bongino/videos/1688152734610814/ (http://www.facebook.com/dan.bongino/videos/1688152734610814/)
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This right here is why I dislike the cops. They bust into wrong peoples houses serving warrants late at night and shoot them and their dog because they can't read numbers on a mailbox, yet this piece of human debris is perfectly intact when they arrest him......
Where's the split lip, busted up eye, broken limbs and fingers? They could have taken this MoFo down harder than hell and roughed him up. Utter bullshit.
@Frank Cannon And with all the cameras been charged with "Police Brutality" by the liberal media and we would have had another Rodney King trial taking the focus off the real issue. Comments like this are why no one takes you seriously.
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DEMOCRAT!
http://www.bcpa.net/RecInfo.asp?URL_Folio=494222AA0120 (http://www.bcpa.net/RecInfo.asp?URL_Folio=494222AA0120)
First of all the link you posted doesn't support the voter registration info you posted, Can you provide a link to that? Next the perp's name is Nikolas Cruz not Nicholas Cruz.
:shrug:
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First of all the link you posted doesn't support the voter registration info you posted, Can you provide a link to that? Next the perp's name is Nikolas Cruz not Nicholas Cruz.
:shrug:
My Facebook types say his name is Nikolas De Jesus Cruz.
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(https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/.zd0WTjHn35H5OMhy3_Qfw--~B/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD00OTc7dz00MDA-/http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Nikolas-Cruz-Florida-school-shooter.png.cf.png)
Mugshot of Cruz
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4 brothers - all served, none drafted, 3 retired from the military. Mom retired as a Col. Both sons served, one Marine and one Airman, who will retire from the military in due time. I'm the widow of a Viet Nam combat vet. Also not drafted. That do it for you?
Oh wow @Sanguine. Thank your family for their service, give them big hugs from me. I'm truly sorry about your husband, I didn't know you were a widow.
:patriot:
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I agree, but that's not the point. It's that his obsession with guns facilitated this. If you cannot prevent an unstable mind, the best you can do is take away the tools he uses.
Leave it to you to use a tragedy to push your political agenda of disarming everybody who didn't commit the crime. What a despicable ghoul you are. The bodies aren't even cold yet.
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My two cents- if you ban guns, they will use knives in the next attacks, or make up something more lethal like the gas they put in the Tokyo subway system. Or use fire....
Mankind has always found ways to slaughter. Someone who is disturbed will find a way to do it,
I'm not qualified to have a gun because of my eyes (depth perception) but I'll fight for my friends right to bear them. Because I know people have been killing each other since Cain slew Abel. How do you think they did it before gunpowder was invented?
I'm just heartbroken about the 17 people who died though. This was senseless. Prayers for them are at the prayer thread
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Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Unless, of course, you count yourself among those with unstable minds.
I read you perfectly because your lust is transparent as Hell, and calling me a psycho does not strengthen your case for tyranny. This is your standard MO. You are a gun-grabber, and you cannot resist using a tragedy to push your favorite policy goal. I have more descriptive words for you than "ghoul," but I resist out of respect for the good people of TBR.
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This pretty well sums it up for me.
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I read you perfectly because your lust is transparent as Hell, and calling me a psycho does not strengthen your case for tyranny. This is your standard MO. You are a gun-grabber, and you cannot resist using a tragedy to push your favorite policy goal. I have more descriptive words for you than "ghoul," but I resist out of respect for the good people of TBR.
This wasn't a tragedy. This was a deliberate killing by a disturbed individual that the kids at school apparently suspected would do something mad like this. We didn't "wait until the bodies were cold" before declaring war after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Do we fight madness like this or is fealty to your own peculiar and selfish obsessions more important?
I haven't proposed a single "policy goal" in response to these killings. I don't know enough yet to do so. But I know enough to realize that guns are going to be subject to more restrictions, and Oceander's right that you better damn well know what way the wind is blowing. Be part of the solution or be marginalized.
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@Frank Cannon And with all the cameras been charged with "Police Brutality" by the liberal media and we would have had another Rodney King trial taking the focus off the real issue. Comments like this are why no one takes you seriously.
Yeah. The guy who murdered 17 kids at school is the same as Rodney King. You are genuinely the stupidest person to be posting on a forum and that includes people at DU.
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Because the requirement for a drivers license has not stopped people from driving without one, nor has it stopped vehicles from being stolen nor misused.
:thumbsup:
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This wasn't a tragedy. This was a deliberate killing by a disturbed individual that the kids at school apparently suspected would do something mad like this. We didn't "wait until the bodies were cold" before declaring war after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Do we fight madness like this or is fealty to your own peculiar and selfish obsessions more important?
I haven't proposed a damn thing in response to these killings. I don't know enough yet to do so. But I know enough to realize that guns are going to be subject to more restrictions, and Oceander's right that you better damn well know what way the wind is blowing. Be part of the solution or be marginalized.
The shooter ignored the restrictions. He was banned from the school, banned from bringing a gun to school, banned from buying a weapon, banned from opening fire on people, banned from threatening to shoot up a school. There is no point having restrictions if you aren't going to enforce them.
All the kids knew he was going to do this but no one wanted to stop him from doing it. It was just another example of weaponized Autism.
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My two cents- if you ban guns, they will use knives in the next attacks, or make up something more lethal like the gas they put in the Tokyo subway system. Or use fire....
Mankind has always found ways to slaughter. Someone who is disturbed will find a way to do it,
I'm not qualified to have a gun because of my eyes (depth perception) but I'll fight for my friends right to bear them. Because I know people have been killing each other since Cain slew Abel. How do you think they did it before gunpowder was invented?
I'm just heartbroken about the 17 people who died though. This was senseless. Prayers for them are at the prayer thread
So why have any limitations on any weapons whatsoever? I mean, geez, what’s the point of making it illegal to possess a nuclear bomb; after all, if that’s illegal, they’ll just use something else, like a gun.
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This wasn't a tragedy. This was a deliberate killing by a disturbed individual that the kids at school apparently suspected would do something mad like this. We didn't "wait until the bodies were cold" before declaring war after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Do we fight madness like this or is fealty to your own peculiar and selfish obsessions more important?
I haven't proposed a damn thing in response to these killings. I don't know enough yet to do so. But I know enough to realize that guns are going to be subject to more restrictions, and Oceander's right that you better damn well know what way the wind is blowing. Be part of the solution or be marginalized.
@Jazzhead @Oceander
I've already asked several times but will ask again. What law would have prevented the deaths? Banning ARs? He would have used something else. Banned all guns? Setting aside the Constitutional factors, how would you do that? We have over 300 million guns in the US and I can make a simple 1 shot gun from about $5 of material from Home Depot.
You lack the intellectual honesty to see beyond your preconceived notions. Everywhere that has tight gun control has a high violent crime rate. The prohibition of self defense also accompanies gun control so then we'll see victims prosecuted for defending themselves, even if they only used a pen.
Why do Chicago and Baltimore have such a high crime rate? They have very strict gun control laws. Why, unless you don't really give a crap about people or their safety, but do care about prohibiting freedom and self-protection.
Look at England or Australia and explain their increase in violent crime after guns were banned. Look at all the other cases in history which show that when people are prohibited arms to protect themselves there are severe repercussions caused by the government.
How many have to die violent deaths before people like you give up your religious fervor against self-defense? Explain what law would have prevented this and why the other 20,000 gun laws didn't?
You can't. This is a case where the person was sick and he was intent on committing murder. The only way to prevent it was to stop him based on the multitude of signs he was dangerous.
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So why have any limitations on any weapons whatsoever? I mean, geez, what’s the point of making it illegal to possess a nuclear bomb; after all, if that’s illegal, they’ll just use something else, like a gun.
@Oceander
Wow thats original. What number is that on the communist list of talking points for gun control?
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@Oceander
Wow thats original. What number is that on the communist list of talking points for gun control?
m
That’s right, when you don’t have an argument, lead with an insult.
Like I said before, more restrictions on guns are coming. Are you going to be proactive and have a hand in developing the laws that will come, for the purpose of protecting core second amendment rights, or are you simply going to insult me, deny reality, and then cry in your tea when liberals get laws passed simply confiscating all weapons?
You seem to think that no restrictions whatsoever should apply, so you’re choosing the latter. Enjoy the tears in your tea; but don’t say you weren’t warned.
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@Jazzhead @Oceander
I've already asked several times but will ask again. What law would have prevented the deaths? Banning ARs? He would have used something else. Banned all guns? Setting aside the Constitutional factors, how would you do that? We have over 300 million guns in the US and I can make a simple 1 shot gun from about $5 of material from Home Depot.
You lack the intellectual honesty to see beyond your preconceived notions. Everywhere that has tight gun control has a high violent crime rate. The prohibition of self defense also accompanies gun control so then we'll see victims prosecuted for defending themselves, even if they only used a pen.
Why do Chicago and Baltimore have such a high crime rate? They have very strict gun control laws. Why, unless you don't really give a crap about people or their safety, but do care about prohibiting freedom and self-protection.
Look at England or Australia and explain their increase in violent crime after guns were banned. Look at all the other cases in history which show that when people are prohibited arms to protect themselves there are severe repercussions caused by the government.
How many have to die violent deaths before people like you give up your religious fervor against self-defense? Explain what law would have prevented this and why the other 20,000 gun laws didn't?
You can't. This is a case where the person was sick and he was intent on committing murder. The only way to prevent it was to stop him based on the multitude of signs he was dangerous.
Couldn't have said it better myself. That is spot on.
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Not to mention that if terrorists bring a nuke in a ship into Boston harbor, that ban on nukes ain't gonna mean squat.
This school shooting proved one thing: Gun Control doesn't work. The only thing stopping a school shooting is another gun. The best you can do is lock up people before they open fire.
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@Jazzhead @Oceander
I've already asked several times but will ask again. What law would have prevented the deaths? Banning ARs? He would have used something else. Banned all guns? Setting aside the Constitutional factors, how would you do that? We have over 300 million guns in the US and I can make a simple 1 shot gun from about $5 of material from Home Depot.
You lack the intellectual honesty to see beyond your preconceived notions. Everywhere that has tight gun control has a high violent crime rate. The prohibition of self defense also accompanies gun control so then we'll see victims prosecuted for defending themselves, even if they only used a pen.
Why do Chicago and Baltimore have such a high crime rate? They have very strict gun control laws. Why, unless you don't really give a crap about people or their safety, but do care about prohibiting freedom and self-protection.
Look at England or Australia and explain their increase in violent crime after guns were banned. Look at all the other cases in history which show that when people are prohibited arms to protect themselves there are severe repercussions caused by the government.
How many have to die violent deaths before people like you give up your religious fervor against self-defense? Explain what law would have prevented this and why the other 20,000 gun laws didn't?
You can't. This is a case where the person was sick and he was intent on committing murder. The only way to prevent it was to stop him based on the multitude of signs he was dangerous.
Baltimore and Chicago have high rates of gun violence in part because any yo-yo who wants to can buy a gun in one of the permissive states and bring it across state lines and into the city. Their gun control laws are ineffective in large part because they cannot control the importation of guns into the city from out of state.
You need a better analogy.
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m
That’s right, when you don’t have an argument, lead with an insult.
Like I said before, more restrictions on guns are coming. Are you going to be proactive and have a hand in developing the laws that will come, for the purpose of protecting core second amendment rights, or are you simply going to insult me, deny reality, and then cry in your tea when liberals get laws passed simply confiscating all weapons?
You seem to think that no restrictions whatsoever should apply, so you’re choosing the latter. Enjoy the tears in your tea; but don’t say you weren’t warned.
@Oceander
Actually fewer restrictions are coming. Even Judge Nap on Fox said the only thing that would have stopped this guy is someone with a gun.
Stop living in fear and take responsibility for yourself.
Oh and nothing I said was an insult.
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@Jazzhead @Oceander
I've already asked several times but will ask again. What law would have prevented the deaths? Banning ARs? He would have used something else. Banned all guns? Setting aside the Constitutional factors, how would you do that? We have over 300 million guns in the US and I can make a simple 1 shot gun from about $5 of material from Home Depot.
You lack the intellectual honesty to see beyond your preconceived notions. Everywhere that has tight gun control has a high violent crime rate. The prohibition of self defense also accompanies gun control so then we'll see victims prosecuted for defending themselves, even if they only used a pen.
Why do Chicago and Baltimore have such a high crime rate? They have very strict gun control laws. Why, unless you don't really give a crap about people or their safety, but do care about prohibiting freedom and self-protection.
Look at England or Australia and explain their increase in violent crime after guns were banned. Look at all the other cases in history which show that when people are prohibited arms to protect themselves there are severe repercussions caused by the government.
How many have to die violent deaths before people like you give up your religious fervor against self-defense? Explain what law would have prevented this and why the other 20,000 gun laws didn't?
You can't. This is a case where the person was sick and he was intent on committing murder. The only way to prevent it was to stop him based on the multitude of signs he was dangerous.
I don't know enough about the facts of this case to propose anything specific. And I have no problem whatsoever with a person owning a gun to protect himself and his family.
More generally, I support a registration and insurance regime for legal gun ownership, similar to what we require with cars. A lawful driver must carry insurance - typically no-fault insurance - that pays the medical bills of those harmed by the dangerous implement he chooses to own. I don't have time this morning to go into how a registration/insurance regime would work for guns, but I've written about it before. I'm not interested in feel-good laws that aren't efficacious. But if you want to own a gun - go right ahead! - but then be willing take legal responsibility for the damage it may cause.
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Baltimore and Chicago have high rates of gun violence in part because any yo-yo who wants to can buy a gun in one of the permissive states and bring it across state lines and into the city. Their gun control laws are ineffective in large part because they cannot control the importation of guns into the city from out of state.
You need a better analogy.
Maybe they should ban people from buying guns out of state and bringing them into the city
So if we restrict guns in other states, how will you stop guns from coming across the Mexican border? You are making the argument that you can't stop people from getting guns if they want them.
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Baltimore and Chicago have high rates of gun violence in part because any yo-yo who wants to can buy a gun in one of the permissive states and bring it across state lines and into the city. Their gun control laws are ineffective in large part because they cannot control the importation of guns into the city from out of state.
You need a better analogy.
@Oceander
So predictable. If the guns coming from the "permissive states" are the problem why isn't there a lot of gun crime in those "permissive states" ?
Importation control eh, now you are clamoring for checkpoints and govt searches for interstate travel. Its already illegal to buy a gun in another state without going thru an FFL. Oh by the way most of the gun related murders in chicago are related to gang activity (illegal) or convicted felons with a gun (illegal) or underage people with a gun (illegal).
Better get your safe place, rational people are tired of what the leftist ideas have brought upon this nation.
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I support a registration and insurance regime for legal gun ownership
What about illegal gun ownership? That seems to be more of the problem, especially in this case.
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I don't know enough about the facts of this case to propose anything specific. And I have no problem whatsoever with a person owning a gun to protect himself and his family.
More generally, I support a registration and insurance regime for legal gun ownership, similar to what we require with cars. A lawful driver must carry insurance - typically no-fault insurance - that pays the medical bills of those harmed by the dangerous implement he chooses to own. I don't have time this morning to go into how a registration/insurance regime would work for guns, but I've written about it before. I'm not interested in feel-good laws that aren't efficacious. But if you want to own a gun, then be willing take responsibility for the damage it may cause.
@Jazzhead
How would a license and insurance have stopped this?
You say you're against feel good laws and then propose two of em. BTW, he is being held responsible for this. He's in jail. Being held responsible doesn't bring back 17 people, nor would a license or insurance.
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@Jazzhead
How would a license and insurance have stopped this?
You say you're against feel good laws and then propose two of em. BTW, he is being held responsible for this. He's in jail. Being held responsible doesn't bring back 17 people, nor would a license or insurance.
And has already been pointed out...not having insurance...registration and a drivers license doesn't stop people from driving a car without punishment every single day of the year.
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New Orleans and some other cities actually have higher murder rates than Chicago. It is because Chicago is so huge, one hears about it. There are a number of factors at play in these figures. This is an old map, so one started hearing about Chicago more starting about 10 years ago.
(http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/09/19/951d9720-03d9-48f1-a71e-af05f3fc6766/735796c6eafb462b2fe8f0056c23fcc4/gun-deaths-map.jpg)
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True enough - but you will behold that cars are not manufactured for the purpose of killing - even though they kill far more people in this country than guns ever have.
We should apply similar silly arguments the Left makes with guns over vehicles. Due the result of so many fatalities, we cannot ignore the crisis of vehicular deaths in this country therefore the proposed reasonable restrictions are offered: While driving is a privilege and not a right - we think no one needs a car because there is public transportation available and we have to cut down on global warming; the government should regulate what kind of car you are permitted to purchase and own with a 30 day waiting period before being allowed to get behind the wheel; mandated insurance before you can drive it under police supervision; there is absolutely no need whatsoever for the general public to own assault trucks and self-driving automatic SUVs - we have professional truckers and utility companies that are the only ones who should be permitted to operate those; keys to your vehicle will need to be kept under lock and key at your local police station; and absolutely no person should be permitted to own a car if children under 26 live in the home, that is a form of child abuse and an inherent danger to every child in the neighborhood.
People mostly possess guns not for killing, but to keep from being killed.
Cars are completely different kettle.
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This pretty well sums it up for me.
Nice pic.
And welcome to GBR.
@oldno7
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New Orleans and some other cities actually have higher murder rates than Chicago. It is because Chicago is so huge, one hears about it. There are a number of factors at play in these figures. This is an old map, so one started hearing about Chicago more starting about 10 years ago.
@TomSea
Which merely goes to show that its not the guns, but the people.
BTW most murders in Chicago are on the South side. Map here
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20161228/garfield-park/shootings-chicago-homicide-2016-spike (https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20161228/garfield-park/shootings-chicago-homicide-2016-spike)
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@Oceander
So predictable. If the guns coming from the "permissive states" are the problem why isn't there a lot of gun crime in those "permissive states" ?
Importation control eh, now you are clamoring for checkpoints and govt searches for interstate travel. Its already illegal to buy a gun in another state without going thru an FFL. Oh by the way most of the gun related murders in chicago are related to gang activity (illegal) or convicted felons with a gun (illegal) or underage people with a gun (illegal).
Better get your safe place, rational people are tired of what the leftist ideas have brought upon this nation.
When was the last time a gun dealer was held up at gunpoint?
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There are a few on this forum who fervently wish to erode our freedoms.
Most Americans since our country's founding know that freedom has a cost.
To succumb to the siren song of more restrictions on freedom is most certainly not the solution.
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Nikolas Cruz Was Reported to FBI As Potential School Shooter in September (Screenshot of Threat)
February 15, 2018 by Cassandra Fairbanks
Nikolas Cruz, the suspect in Wednesday’s horrific massacre at a Florida high school, was allegedly reported to the FBI in September after he left a comment on a bail bondsman’s YouTube channel saying that he was going to be a “professional school shooter.â€
(http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/0000000000000000000000000-48-600x328.jpg)
The former student at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School had previously been expelled for disciplinary problems prior to the mass shooting that left 17 people dead.
In a YouTube video published on the evening of the attack, Ben Bennight, a Mississippi bondsman, explained that he was contacted by the FBI at approximately 3 p.m. about a comment on one of his videos that he had reported last fall.
“The FBI just left my house in regards to this situation,†Bennight stated. “September 24th 2017, I sent a screenshot of a comment on one of my videos — now people keep asking me which video was it, but I don’t know, I don’t remember what video it was — when I saw the comment come through on my Studio app on my iPhone I screenshot the comment and hit the report button to report it to YouTube. Of course, they removed the comment.†... Gateway Pundit (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/)
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I read you perfectly because your lust is transparent as Hell, and calling me a psycho does not strengthen your case for tyranny. This is your standard MO. You are a gun-grabber, and you cannot resist using a tragedy to push your favorite policy goal. I have more descriptive words for you than "ghoul," but I resist out of respect for the good people of TBR.
Just as homeschooling mafia at TOS is salivating over this to push their agenda. No sympathy for the victims, just score as many cheap points as possible.
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You can flame me all you want; I understand that’s what makes internet types feel like they’re doing something, but the simple blunt fact of the matter is this: ordinary people, people who don’t feel one way or the other about guns, but who do feel strongly about the safety of their kids in school, are going to be more and more receptive to the gun control advocates each time this happens, and if those who love guns and the second amendment aren’t out there doing something other than wringing their hands over the latest school massacre, those ordinary people will eventually agree to their proposals. And at this point mere intransigence will simply help the pressure build until the second amendment is simply repealed through a constitutional amendment.
I’m not advocating gun control, I’m simply telling you what’s coming down the pike. The flood is building, and you can either be constructive and try to direct it away from the worst damage, or you can simply stand pat and be washed away.
So, please, if it makes you feel all righteous and activist, flame away at me.
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Stefan Molyneux Verified account @StefanMolyneux
6h6 hours ago
There is no such thing as gun control. There is only the centralization of gun ownership in the hands of a small political elite and their minions.
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Yeah. The guy who murdered 17 kids at school is the same as Rodney King. You are genuinely the stupidest person to be posting on a forum and that includes people at DU.
@Frank Cannon You liberals are so cute when you try to pretend you are conservative.
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OK, I see I have to post another reminder this is not a gun control thread, no matter how clever some posters think they are being by chewing it around the edges.
There will be lots of gun control threads today as the usual Democrat suspects start spouting off on the subject, and that is where the conversation is appropriate.
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Stefan Molyneux Verified account @StefanMolyneux
6h6 hours ago
There is no such thing as gun control. There is only the centralization of gun ownership in the hands of a small political elite and their minions.
So registration of firearms and licensing of owners wouldn’t be gun control?
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OK, I see I have to post another reminder this is not a gun control thread, no matter how clever some posters think they are being by chewing it around the edges.
There will be lots of gun control threads today as the usual Democrat suspects start spouting off on the subject, and that is where the conversation is appropriate.
You cannot divorce the two. You can ignore it if you wish, but you cannot divorce them.
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Nikolas Cruz Was Reported to FBI As Potential School Shooter in September (Screenshot of Threat)
February 15, 2018 by Cassandra Fairbanks
Nikolas Cruz, the suspect in Wednesday’s horrific massacre at a Florida high school, was allegedly reported to the FBI in September after he left a comment on a bail bondsman’s YouTube channel saying that he was going to be a “professional school shooter.â€
(http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/0000000000000000000000000-48-600x328.jpg)
The former student at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School had previously been expelled for disciplinary problems prior to the mass shooting that left 17 people dead.
In a YouTube video published on the evening of the attack, Ben Bennight, a Mississippi bondsman, explained that he was contacted by the FBI at approximately 3 p.m. about a comment on one of his videos that he had reported last fall.
“The FBI just left my house in regards to this situation,†Bennight stated. “September 24th 2017, I sent a screenshot of a comment on one of my videos — now people keep asking me which video was it, but I don’t know, I don’t remember what video it was — when I saw the comment come through on my Studio app on my iPhone I screenshot the comment and hit the report button to report it to YouTube. Of course, they removed the comment.†... Gateway Pundit (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/)
That is stunning news @mountaineer! TY for digging it up!
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@Jazzhead @Oceander
I've already asked several times but will ask again. What law would have prevented the deaths? Banning ARs? He would have used something else. Banned all guns? Setting aside the Constitutional factors, how would you do that? We have over 300 million guns in the US and I can make a simple 1 shot gun from about $5 of material from Home Depot.
@Oceander @Jazzhead @txradioguy
Would you have had the same casualty rate with that homemade single-shot weapon, @driftdiver?
The point of many gun grabbers isn't that restrictions would prevent it all...but that they could make events less deadly. Unless you realize that's a point being made, then you're looking clueless to much of the population who wonders why these aren't "common sense" restrictions.
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You can flame me all you want; I understand that’s what makes internet types feel like they’re doing something, but the simple blunt fact of the matter is this: ordinary people, people who don’t feel one way or the other about guns, but who do feel strongly about the safety of their kids in school, are going to be more and more receptive to the gun control advocates each time this happens, and if those who love guns and the second amendment aren’t out there doing something other than wringing their hands over the latest school massacre, those ordinary people will eventually agree to their proposals. And at this point mere intransigence will simply help the pressure build until the second amendment is simply repealed through a constitutional amendment.
I’m not advocating gun control, I’m simply telling you what’s coming down the pike. The flood is building, and you can either be constructive and try to direct it away from the worst damage, or you can simply stand pat and be washed away.
So, please, if it makes you feel all righteous and activist, flame away at me.
Before the mods shut the thread down, let me say thanks for a constructive and sensible post.
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@Oceander @Jazzhead @txradioguy
Would you have had the same casualty rate with that homemade single-shot weapon, @driftdiver?
The point of many gun grabbers isn't that restrictions would prevent it all...but that they could make events less deadly. Unless you realize that's a point being made, then you're looking clueless to much of the population who wonders why these aren't "common sense" restrictions.
There have been a number of school attacks in China over the last few years, but where a knife was used. Some of them have been pretty effective, unfortunately. I think they go after younger kids because it's easier to harm them.
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@Oceander @Jazzhead @txradioguy
Would you have had the same casualty rate with that homemade single-shot weapon, @driftdiver?
The point of many gun grabbers isn't that restrictions would prevent it all...but that they could make events less deadly. Unless you realize that's a point being made, then you're looking clueless to much of the population who wonders why these aren't "common sense" restrictions.
@Suppressed
Probably not, so he wouldn't have used a single shot. He would have built a bomb. Or maybe used a knife.
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Wow....here we go again....another mass murder. I'm for gun rights, but personally I can't see a use in owning a semi-automatic weapon. Just not much use for hunting. If they go away... oh well....
Semi-auto has been used for hunting for about a century. Having a branch or wind deflect a shot and having a quick follow up without moving more than a finger results in fewer maimed but not killed animals.
As for personal defense? Are you counting on there being only one bad guy and you a perfect shot under a time of stress?
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News
Coach shot while shielding students during Florida massacre
https://nypost.com/2018/02/14/coach-shielding-students-shot-during-florida-massacre/
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OK, I see I have to post another reminder this is not a gun control thread, no matter how clever some posters think they are being by chewing it around the edges.
There will be lots of gun control threads today as the usual Democrat suspects start spouting off on the subject, and that is where the conversation is appropriate.
The damned thread is 12 pages and going....and you show up on this thread to chastise people about the conversation drifting toward gun control? .....when that's all people are talking about this morning since the event?
Drink another damned cup of coffee @Mod2
@mystery-ak
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News
Coach shot while shielding students during Florida massacre
https://nypost.com/2018/02/14/coach-shielding-students-shot-during-florida-massacre/
Heartbreaking.
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Florida AG Pam Bondi: State of Florida Will Pay for Funerals of High School Shooting Victims
http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/ (http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/)
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Florida AG Pam Bondi: State of Florida Will Pay for Funerals of High School Shooting Victims
http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/ (http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/)
Is there an ulterior motive here? (Think Dreamers)
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Baltimore and Chicago have high rates of gun violence in part because any yo-yo who wants to can buy a gun in one of the permissive states and bring it across state lines and into the city. Their gun control laws are ineffective in large part because they cannot control the importation of guns into the city from out of state.
You need a better analogy.
And why do the adjecent permissive states not have the same problem? Because there the victim is far more likely to defend themselves.
The overly restrictive gun control allows more gun violence and less gun violence prevention.
There is a reason these mass-murders don't show up at the police station or a gun show to commit violence.
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Florida AG Pam Bondi: State of Florida Will Pay for Funerals of High School Shooting Victims
http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/ (http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/)
Yes, I saw her say that. It's a nice gesture. I'm not really sure what to make of it. It's the decent thing to do to save the families the expenses.
Also, I heard about that coach last night too. One of those shot was the football coach.
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Florida AG Pam Bondi: State of Florida Will Pay for Funerals of High School Shooting Victims
http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/ (http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/)
That's very weird. Are we going to find out that the state knew about this creep and didn't do anything about him so the state is trying to get ahead of lawsuits and bad PR?
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And why do the adjecent permissive states not have the same problem? Because there the victim is far more likely to defend themselves.
The overly restrictive gun control allows more gun violence and less gun violence prevention.
There is a reason these mass-murders don't show up at the police station or a gun show to commit violence.
:facepalm2:
You were warned. You can either participate in crafting the new laws, or you can passively accept whatever laws the left decides to enact, what you cannot do is pretend that nothing will change.
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And why do the adjecent permissive states not have the same problem? Because there the victim is far more likely to defend themselves.
The overly restrictive gun control allows more gun violence and less gun violence prevention.
There is a reason these mass-murders don't show up at the police station or a gun show to commit violence.
According to recent polling numbers it is clear that criminals overwhelmingly prefer unarmed victims!
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That's very weird. Are we going to find out that the state knew about this creep and didn't do anything about him so the state is trying to get ahead of lawsuits and bad PR?
The FBI knew about him five months ago. (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/) The school authorities knew about him, but didn't bother retaining an armed guard to stop him from entering the campus.
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That's very weird. Are we going to find out that the state knew about this creep and didn't do anything about him so the state is trying to get ahead of lawsuits and bad PR?
The FBI was warned about him way back in September @Frank Cannon.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/)
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The FBI was warned about him way back in September @Frank Cannon.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/)
There is a trend lately that any shooting or terrorist attack was on the FBI's radar yet nothing was ever done about it.
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The coach died; https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/florida-high-school-football-coach-who-was-seen-shielding-students-from-gunfire-dies/ar-BBJ9hSm?OCID=ansmsnnews11 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/florida-high-school-football-coach-who-was-seen-shielding-students-from-gunfire-dies/ar-BBJ9hSm?OCID=ansmsnnews11)
Aaron Fries:
(http://989thewolf.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Aaron-Feis.jpg)
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:facepalm2:
You were warned. You can either participate in crafting the new laws, or you can passively accept whatever laws the left decides to enact, what you cannot do is pretend that nothing will change.
Your post pretty well sums up everything about you.
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Your post pretty well sums up everything about you.
New laws are what butter some folks bread.
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Is there an ulterior motive here? (Think Dreamers)
@DCPatriot
Pam Bondi is very ambitious
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There is a trend lately that any shooting or terrorist attack was on the FBI's radar yet nothing was ever done about it.
Apparently the FBI is too busy these days directing the outcome of elections.
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The coach died; https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/florida-high-school-football-coach-who-was-seen-shielding-students-from-gunfire-dies/ar-BBJ9hSm?OCID=ansmsnnews11 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/florida-high-school-football-coach-who-was-seen-shielding-students-from-gunfire-dies/ar-BBJ9hSm?OCID=ansmsnnews11)
Aaron Fries:
(http://989thewolf.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Aaron-Feis.jpg)
If only he had been armed.
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:facepalm2:
You were warned. You can either participate in crafting the new laws, or you can passively accept whatever laws the left decides to enact, what you cannot do is pretend that nothing will change.
@Oceander
Cut n paste eh
Gun control doesn't work. Rational people know it.
Stop living in fear
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The coach died; https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/florida-high-school-football-coach-who-was-seen-shielding-students-from-gunfire-dies/ar-BBJ9hSm?OCID=ansmsnnews11 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/florida-high-school-football-coach-who-was-seen-shielding-students-from-gunfire-dies/ar-BBJ9hSm?OCID=ansmsnnews11)
Aaron Fries:
(http://989thewolf.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Aaron-Feis.jpg)
Oh RIP. Prayers to his friends and family he looks young.
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In order to keep personal insults from continuing to derail this thread and demean this topic, Mods will be departing from normal activities and will be removing any responses that are clearly personal insults.
This is a serious topic: 17 kids and adults shot dead in a school. Take the personal insults elsewhere.
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Your post pretty well sums up everything about you.
That he is wiser than just about everybody else here?
You can't ignore the demands of the community to do something about the current madness. The task of the responsible conservative is to make sure the coming restrictions are reasonable and efficacious, and consistent with the natural right of self defense protected by the Second Amendment. But forcing one's head firmly in the sand won't stop the wind from blowing. And, as Oceander rightly says, it will just allow the left to rule the field.
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The FBI knew about him five months ago. (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/) The school authorities knew about him, but didn't bother retaining an armed guard to stop him from entering the campus.
I'd like to know if the school reported their suspicions and actions to protect students to the authorities --- police, FBI!!
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That he is wiser than just about everybody else here?
You can't ignore the demands of the community to do something about the current madness. The task of the responsible conservative is to make sure the coming restrictions are reasonable and efficacious, and consistent with the natural right of self defense protected by the Second Amendment. But forcing one's head firmly in the sand won't stop the wind from blowing. And, as Oceander rightly says, it will just allow the left to rule the field.
@Jazzhead
The overwhelming response I see to calls for gun control is that it doesn't work.
So no, its not a given and rational people know the answer lies elsewhere.
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There is a trend lately that any shooting or terrorist attack was on the FBI's radar yet nothing was ever done about it.
And let’s not forget the parents who had to know why he was not aloud to bring a backpack and later kicked out. They had the gun in locked cabinet which is NOT a safe. They did not take reasonable precautions to prevent this troubled kid to get his hand on it. The same situation with the Sandy Hook killer.
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There's not one law that would have made a damn bit of difference.
And the Left will never be satisfied until they get complete gun confiscation.
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Suspect, who recently lost his mother, had a troubled history
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/suspect-who-recently-lost-his-mother-had-a-troubled-history/ar-BBJ9rq0?ocid=DELLDHP&ocid=spartanntp (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/suspect-who-recently-lost-his-mother-had-a-troubled-history/ar-BBJ9rq0?ocid=DELLDHP&ocid=spartanntp)
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He stole the gun from the gun safe where he was living.
If someone had told the people living there that he had threatened to shoot up a school, my guess is they would have removed the guns.
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And let’s not forget the parents who had to know why he was not aloud to bring a backpack and later kicked out. They had the gun in locked cabinet which is NOT a safe. They did not take reasonable precautions to prevent this troubled kid to get his hand on it. The same situation with the Sandy Hook killer.
Foxnews said he had a key.
Regardless, the adoptive parents (dad really as the mom had died) could have stopped him from getting that gun. They probably couldn't have stopped him from getting A gun.
Law enforcement could have. He had made threats to shoot up the school already, which is a crime.
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@Oceander @Jazzhead @txradioguy
Would you have had the same casualty rate with that homemade single-shot weapon, @driftdiver?
The point of many gun grabbers isn't that restrictions would prevent it all...but that they could make events less deadly. Unless you realize that's a point being made, then you're looking clueless to much of the population who wonders why these aren't "common sense" restrictions.
And the people intent on taking out a large amount of people will simple switch to another weapon. That's what the "common sense" people fail to understand.
England banned guns...killers switched to knives to commit murder. Now England is considering putting a limit on the length of blade a people can own and at what age they can own it.
What's going to happen when the people who are hell bent on committing mass murders start switching to 18 wheelers and large box trucks to drive down the street mowing down any and all in their path?
Do we start coming up with "common sense" big rig and rental van laws?
And the one question no one that is on here proposing "common sense" gun laws will answer and is flat out REFUSING to answer...is what would one more law added to the 20,000 already on the books from the city to the federal level do to prevent something like this?
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There have been a number of school attacks in China over the last few years, but where a knife was used. Some of them have been pretty effective, unfortunately. I think they go after younger kids because it's easier to harm them.
These cowards are going for high casualty rates. If Semi Autos are banned they would switch to pipe bombs or pressure cooker bombs. The information on how to make black powder and ANFO is all over the internet and the ingredients are available with a trip to any hardware and drug store.
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From another thread:
It was his gun that he had legally bought as confirmed by the ATF. BTW -- Lewis is the attorney representing the family he was living with:
Cruz already owned the AR-15 rifle when he moved in with his friend’s family, Lewis said, noting that he was told that Cruz had bought it legally. “It was his gun. He had brought it to the house when he moved in. It was secured in a gun cabinet in the house, but he had the key to it. I believe it was secured in his room,†Lewis said. The family had not seen Cruz shooting the AR-15 since he moved in.
Authorities confirmed that Cruz bought the AR-15 himself, and so far it is the only gun that has been recovered as part of the investigation, said Peter J. Forcelli, special agent in charge of the Miami field division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
“He purchased the firearm legally,†Forcelli said in an interview Thursday morning. “No laws were broken in his acquisition of the firearm.â€
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/02/15/florida-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-guns-depression-and-a-life-in-free-fall/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_cruz-profile-533am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c8f20da02229 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/02/15/florida-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-guns-depression-and-a-life-in-free-fall/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_cruz-profile-533am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c8f20da02229)
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That he is wiser than just about everybody else here?
You can't ignore the demands of the community to do something about the current madness. The task of the responsible conservative is to make sure the coming restrictions are reasonable and efficacious, and consistent with the natural right of self defense protected by the Second Amendment. But forcing one's head firmly in the sand won't stop the wind from blowing. And, as Oceander rightly says, it will just allow the left to rule the field.
On the contrary, it is those hollering about new laws who are reacting emotionally.
Rational people understand that more laws, like the 'gun-free schools law', will never solve this problem.
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These cowards are going for high casualty rates. If Semi Autos are banned they would switch to pipe bombs or pressure cooker bombs. The information on how to make black powder and ANFO is all over the internet and the ingredients are available with a trip to any hardware and drug store.
Or use fertilizer & diesel fuel.
Failing that, just pull the fire alarm and drive your Tacoma through the halls at 40 MPH.
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Banning semi autos would simply make it harder to get one, not impossible. Heroin is banned but you can still get it easily.
It would relatively easy to bring fully auto AK's over the border with immigrants.
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@Oceander
Cut n paste eh
Gun control doesn't work. Rational people know it.
Stop living in fear
I’m not the one living in fear. I’m simply warning all and sundry of what’s coming down the pike. If you don’t do anything, then you’ll have nobody to blame but yourself when your guns are seized in a few years.
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The media has GOT to stop the way they cover these shootings.
Updates should be on the hour and words like "monster", "murderer", "evil", "death penalty" should be repeated often.
Stop with the press conferences, stop with the interviews .... stop acting like the world has stopped because of this.
In a month's time our "leaders" can let us know what they've uncovered and how they propose incorporating the findings into into an action plan. Let us decide if we agree.
Stop glorifying this. They're not heroes. They're sick, effed up misfits.
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I’m not the one living in fear. I’m simply warning all and sundry of what’s coming down the pike. If you don’t do anything, then you’ll have nobody to blame but yourself when your guns are seized in a few years.
I don't believe you answered me. Do WHAT? What are you doing?
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I don't believe you answered me. Do WHAT? What are you doing?
@mountaineer
Something "reasonable"
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The media has GOT to stop the way they cover these shootings.
Updates should be on the hour and words like "monster", "murderer", "evil", "death penalty" should be repeated often.
Stop with the press conferences, stop with the interviews .... stop acting like the world has stopped because of this.
In a month's time our "leaders" can let us know what they've uncovered and how they propose incorporating the findings into into an action plan. Let us decide if we agree.
Stop glorifying this. They're not heroes. They're sick, effed up misfits.
My kids' high school let all the kids out of class for an afternoon so they could commiserate upon the suicide of one of their classmates.
I thought that was a particularly stupid way to react to the tragedy.
Kinda the same mindset here. The media has to get smarter about how they cover these things, as law enforcement needs to change the way they go about preventing them. The tools are already there.
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My kids' high school let all the kids out of class for an afternoon so they could commiserate upon the suicide of one of their classmates.
I thought that was a particularly stupid way to react to the tragedy.
Kinda the same mindset here. The media has to get smarter about how they cover these things, as law enforcement needs to change the way they go about preventing them. The tools are already there.
Thats a horrible idea. good grief someone get that school a brain
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My view, is this all starts when one takes God out of schools. Maybe those laws need to be refined, I'm not saying the 10 commandments need to be on the wall and every child has to pray but there is surely, a median.
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I don't believe you answered me. Do WHAT? What are you doing?
Stop pretending that you can maintain the status quo by claiming helplessness in the face of repeated school massacres undertaken with firearms.
There will be new laws on guns; you can either participate in how they’re written and stave off, say, outright seizure, but have to agree to some more restrictions, or you can do nothing and cry in your tea when liberals enact gun seizure laws.
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If only he had been armed.
If only he had been armed? Honestly, we don't know all of the facts here, there might have been someone armed in the school and it did not help the situation. There were 4,000 students in the school, 17 died. Without full building security, we don't know if one armed teacher could have protected everyone, you would need a dozen or so.
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The media has GOT to stop the way they cover these shootings.
Updates should be on the hour and words like "monster", "murderer", "evil", "death penalty" should be repeated often.
Stop with the press conferences, stop with the interviews .... stop acting like the world has stopped because of this.
In a month's time our "leaders" can let us know what they've uncovered and how they propose incorporating the findings into into an action plan. Let us decide if we agree.
Stop glorifying this. They're not heroes. They're sick, effed up misfits.
There is some truth in what you're saying, but punishment is also a problem. FL has the death penalty, but it'll be years of psychological study and appeals before he gets a needle. There was a time when someone clearly guilty like this would be tried and hung within days. There's your cure for the celebritized mass murderer.
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Just my humble observation: I really try and stay away from the mass shooting threads because it's such a reminder as to the depths our society can reach for whatever reason, including mental illness. With that being said, I skimmed this thread this morning and realized again that even some esteemed Briefers that I always enjoy conversing with can go off the rails when this kind of $hit happens, further proving everyone handles grief differently. Thank You for allowing me to vent, also.
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If only he had been armed? Honestly, we don't know all of the facts here, there might have been someone armed in the school and it did not help the situation. There were 4,000 students in the school, 17 died. Without full building security, we don't know if one armed teacher could have protected everyone, you would need a dozen or so.
@TomSea
This teacher/coach and security guard (yes he was working as a security guard at that moment) was shot protecting students. If he had been armed instead of just stopping bullets with his body he could have stopped the shooter.
yes you would need mutliple people to actually provide true security. But if people like him know theres the possibility of return fire they will be less likely to attack in the first place. And if they do then someone might be in a position to stop them.
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There's not one law that would have made a damn bit of difference.
And the Left will never be satisfied until they get complete gun confiscation.
@dfwgator
I agree with your post but just wanted to note that leftists are ok with guns. As long as the guns are controlled by the govt and being used to enforce the lefts ideas.
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There will be new laws on guns; you can either participate in how they’re written and stave off, say, outright seizure, but have to agree to some more restrictions, or you can do nothing and cry in your tea when liberals enact gun seizure laws.
Well I have to agree but I just don't know what new law would have prevented this...
Repub's need to be a part of this upcoming discussion...and not let the hysteria take control and demand more gun laws that will not work or harm us all.
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The media has GOT to stop the way they cover these shootings.
Updates should be on the hour and words like "monster", "murderer", "evil", "death penalty" should be repeated often.
Stop with the press conferences, stop with the interviews .... stop acting like the world has stopped because of this.
In a month's time our "leaders" can let us know what they've uncovered and how they propose incorporating the findings into into an action plan. Let us decide if we agree.
Stop glorifying this. They're not heroes. They're sick, effed up misfits.
Exactly. The over glamorizing and "in depth" 24/7 reporting that glamorizes tragedies like this are what IMHO inspire copycat shooters.
The media needs to take some ownership and responsibility in these situations instead of going for the ratings.
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@Jazzhead
The overwhelming response I see to calls for gun control is that it doesn't work.
So no, its not a given and rational people know the answer lies elsewhere.
You misunderstand. Gun restrictions ARE coming. School shooting after school shooting after school shooting after school shooting (at least six so far this year, for Christ's sake) has created the demand for such restrictions. In this environment, the absolutist position will be simply ignored (or the politicians who espouse such position will be booted from office).
You have a choice to make as a conservative. Work to make sure the restrictions are reasonable, efficacious and constitutional. Or let the left dictate what happens to your rights. But the absolutist position can no longer be maintained.
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You misunderstand. Gun restrictions ARE coming. School shooting after school shooting after school shooting after school shooting (at least six so far this year, for Christ's sake) has created the demand for such restrictions. In this environment, the absolutist position will be simply ignored (or the politicians who espouse such position will be booted from office).
You have a choice to make as a conservative. Work to make sure the restrictions are reasonable, efficacious and constitutional. Or let the left dictate what happens to your rights. But the absolutist position can no longer be maintained.
You sound absolutely sure that you are correct.
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You misunderstand. Gun restrictions ARE coming. School shooting after school shooting after school shooting after school shooting (at least six so far this year, for Christ's sake) has created the demand for such restrictions. In this environment, the absolutist position will be simply ignored (or the politicians who espouse such position will be booted from office).
You have a choice to make as a conservative. Work to make sure the restrictions are reasonable, efficacious and constitutional. Or let the left dictate what happens to your rights. But the absolutist position can no longer be maintained.
And all you and the other gun grabbers will achieve is taking guns away from law abiding citizens making it more dangerous for everyone.
Your position is not liberal in any sense of the word.
Criminals and people truly intent on committing evil acts will continue unchecked with guns and whatever weapons they can get their hands on.
If that school hadn't been a gun free zone...if teachers...properly trained had been able to carry concealed in that school...we wouldn't be talking about this mass murder today and you wouldn't have yet another platform to puke out your anti gun Liberal beliefs.
But some of those so called "common sense" gun laws you espouse...like gun free zones...didn't work out so well yesterday did they?
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People in the United States have had guns in their homes for over 200 years. And mass shootings have only become a problem in the last 30 years. If you look, there is a huge correlation between the rise of gun shootings and the decline of disciplining your children both at home and at school.
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@Jazzhead
Seems to me you just want to acquiesce the left enough so that they shut up about gun control.
That's NEVER going to happen until every last gun is confiscated.
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You misunderstand. Gun restrictions ARE coming. School shooting after school shooting after school shooting after school shooting (at least six so far this year, for Christ's sake) has created the demand for such restrictions. In this environment, the absolutist position will be simply ignored (or the politicians who espouse such position will be booted from office).
You have a choice to make as a conservative. Work to make sure the restrictions are reasonable, efficacious and constitutional. Or let the left dictate what happens to your rights. But the absolutist position can no longer be maintained.
Putin's fault.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/05/adam-schiff-russians-promoted-2nd-amendment-so-americans-would-kill-each-other/ (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/05/adam-schiff-russians-promoted-2nd-amendment-so-americans-would-kill-each-other/)
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People in the United States have had guns in their homes for over 200 years. And mass shootings have only become a problem in the last 30 years. If you look, there is a huge correlation between the rise of gun shootings and the decline of disciplining your children both at home and at school.
TRG, that is exactly the correct argument: there are many, many dangerous things in this world and many ways humans have thought up to kill other humans. The fault is not with the "things", but with what a particular culture will encourage and allow.
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Meh.....seems to me the first thing that will be suggested by Pres. Trump will be to hired armed personnel to protect the 'assets'....just like any bank does since Jesse James.
Any school construction going forward should have a secure, fenced campus and choke points to enter with vehicles.
IMO, that's a lot more sensible than gun control.
Dan Bongino....talks about how to protect schools here. http://www.facebook.com/dan.bongino/videos/1688152734610814/ (http://www.facebook.com/dan.bongino/videos/1688152734610814/)
Like the big doors with the buzz-in box and camera they have here...big GLASS doors.
But it feels safe.
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@Jazzhead
Seems to me you just want to acquiesce the left enough so that they shut up about gun control.
That's NEVER going to happen until every last gun is confiscated.
I agree, the only thing that would stop a lot of these shootings is total confiscation as in what Australia has done as I understand it and that is never going to happen.
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@Oceander
Cmon what laws would have helped? Youve been asked a multitude of times and refuse to answer.
<>
I’m not desperate. I am telling you what is coming, not from me but from others.
And no, I don’t have easy answers, which is why “we†had better put our thinking caps on and start dealing constructively with the issue and doing the hard work of coming up with novel solutions.
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My kids' high school let all the kids out of class for an afternoon so they could commiserate upon the suicide of one of their classmates.
I thought that was a particularly stupid way to react to the tragedy.
Kinda the same mindset here. The media has to get smarter about how they cover these things, as law enforcement needs to change the way they go about preventing them. The tools are already there.
I don't mean to sound flip, but apparently we are all snowflakes now. **nononono*
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People in the United States have had guns in their homes for over 200 years. And mass shootings have only become a problem in the last 30 years. If you look, there is a huge correlation between the rise of gun shootings and the decline of disciplining your children both at home and at school.
Thirty years ago, youngsters sorted it out on the playground bare knuckle. Grievances were addressed, even the loser retained some self-respect, respect among peers was gained, and bullies (the real deal not just someone who called someone a faggot) were identified. Pecking orders were established, and steam let off.
The paddle was used on the real recalcitrants from early on, wielded by the Principal.
But in the decades since there has been a war on human nature, especially the nature of growing boys.
We know more, it seems, about the social development of a wolf or coyote than human kinder.
Pantywaist solutions that only make for the slow festering of impotent rage for a decade and the administration of mood altering drugs (MOAIs and SSRIs, which have been present in most mass shootings, school or not) may well contribute to those aggrieved finding alternate means of resolving conflicts, which escalates the level of violence--the exact opposite of the intent of all the people who run around decrying the perfectly ordinary and normal low-level 'violence' that used to be considered just 'boys being boys', sorting out their differences.
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I agree, the only thing that would stop a lot of these shootings is total confiscation as in what Australia has done as I understand it and that is never going to happen.
@TomSea
Even if it did, their violent crime rate is...... UP.
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I’m not desperate. I am telling you what is coming, not from me but from others.
And no, I don’t have easy answers, which is why “we†had better put our thinking caps on and start dealing constructively with the issue and doing the hard work of coming up with novel solutions.
There are plenty of things that can be done without enacting one single gun law.
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You misunderstand. Gun restrictions ARE coming. School shooting after school shooting after school shooting after school shooting (at least six so far this year, for Christ's sake) has created the demand for such restrictions. In this environment, the absolutist position will be simply ignored (or the politicians who espouse such position will be booted from office).
You have a choice to make as a conservative. Work to make sure the restrictions are reasonable, efficacious and constitutional. Or let the left dictate what happens to your rights. But the absolutist position can no longer be maintained.
Thanks for the pep talk, there, peaches, but you are wrong.
Your little bit I bolded can't be done, because it is contradictory.
Stop treating little boys like little girls, they aren't wired the same.
Stop interrupting the ordinary and natural behaviour of low level conflict that occurs in populations of little boys as they sort out status and issues. Let them develop like little boys used to, not try to make little girls out of them, and there will be less pent up pissed off to finally boil over.
Quit drugging the kids, which is partly a result of policies above, and doesn't teach them how to cope with anything, just be drugged.
Look at the stupid policies of school systems today. My grandson gets hit, he can't hit back in self defense without getting suspended or expelled, at a minimum--because of attendance requirements, that means he would end up repeating all his current classes, because after so many days out you don't get credit for the class. For defending himself.
School policy is the source of a lot of the pent-up anger that boils to the surface here and there in spectacular acts of violence, and it is only a wonder with policies like that that more incidents don't occur, not that there are any.
Y'all are, again, pointing your finger at the wheel that came off, and not talking about the reason for the bearing burning out and the axle shearing off in the first place. Instead, you blame the lug wrench. It's like blaming the silverware for what's on the menu.
The reason is apparent: it would mean all the current darling liberal policies in regards gender and child development were wrong, and that's one thing we have seen a liberal just can't ever admit.
You would claim it is "reasonable, yadda yadda yadda" to try to strip the rights of 80,000,000 over the actions of fewer than a dozen people. Uh-uh. Not just "no", but "Hell No!".
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TRG, that is exactly the correct argument: there are many, many dangerous things in this world and many ways humans have thought up to kill other humans. The fault is not with the "things", but with what a particular culture will encourage and allow.
This is the point. The problem isn't one of having hardware, but one of the culture that underlies the behaviour of those who have it, and which governs the development of concepts of what is right or wrong within that culture.
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This is the point. The problem isn't one of having hardware, but one of the culture that underlies the behaviour of those who have it, and which governs the development of concepts of what is right or wrong within that culture.
And, we had best figure out how to present this so that "gun-control" advocates can hear it.
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And, we had best figure out how to present this so that "gun-control" advocates can hear it.
LOL! We need 'finger control' to get them out of their ears, for starters.
Remember, it isn't about guns, it's about control.
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And, we had best figure out how to present this so that "gun-control" advocates can hear it.
Good luck with all that.
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Stop pretending that you can maintain the status quo by claiming helplessness in the face of repeated school massacres undertaken with firearms.
There will be new laws on guns; you can either participate in how they’re written and stave off, say, outright seizure, but have to agree to some more restrictions, or you can do nothing and cry in your tea when liberals enact gun seizure laws.
There will be new laws on speech, press and religion; you can either participate in how they are written and stave off, say - outright imprisonment for beliefs, but you have to agree on more restrictions, or you can do nothing and watch all beliefs or speech not approved by the state get criminalized.
Or
There will be Communism: you can either participate and support this new order and stave off, say, iron-fisted despotism, but you have to agree to this new political reality, or you can do nothing and cry in your borscht when you get sent to the gulag because you are not waving your little red book in a crowd as the parade marches by.
It's just another clever way of stating: You are going to be raped - you can either fight it and get killed or severely beaten, or you can lie back and enjoy it and get it over quick.
I am certainly glad our Founders did not possess your mindset and decide that British Occupation was something they all needed to accept and be involved in supporting so that worse conditions and treatment were not imposed by Royal decree.
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Stop treating little boys like little girls, they aren't wired the same.
Stop interrupting the ordinary and natural behaviour of low level conflict that occurs in populations of little boys as they sort out status and issues. Let them develop like little boys used to, not try to make little girls out of them, and there will be less pent up pissed off to finally boil over.
Quit drugging the kids, which is partly a result of policies above, and doesn't teach them how to cope with anything, just be drugged.
Very well stated.
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Good luck with all that.
Hey, if you don't think it's a fight worth fighting, then ok. If you do care about the 2nd Amendment, you probably want to do something effective and right.
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And all you and the other gun grabbers will achieve is taking guns away from law abiding citizens making it more dangerous for everyone.
Bullshit. Requiring car owners to register and insure their vehicles isn't "taking their cars away". With rights come responsibilities. Guns are useful, like cars, and exceedingly dangerous just like cars.
The Second Amendment absolutists are losing all credibility. The community wants gun ownership to coincide with responsibility, and there's nothing unreasonable nor unconstitutional about that. The community will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of the solution, or just another mewling fool demanding his "freedom" to be selfish?
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Hey, if you don't think it's a fight worth fighting, then ok. If you do care about the 2nd Amendment, you probably want to do something effective and right.
The gun-control advocates want one thing and one thing only, total confiscation, they're just willing to do it in steps, give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
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Bullshit. Requiring car owners to register and insure their vehicles isn't "taking their cars away". With rights come responsibilities. Guns are useful, like cars, and exceedingly dangerous just like cars.
The Second Amendment absolutists are losing all credibility. The community wants gun ownership to coincide with responsibility, and there's nothing unreasonable nor unconstitutional about that. The community will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of the solution, or just another mewling fool demanding his "freedom" to be selfish?
You think they're going to be happy with registration? That's just the beginning. Once you give them an inch they will take a mile. You will be basically conceding to them the point that guns are responsible for the violence.
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The gun-control advocates want one thing and one thing only, total confiscation, they're just willing to do it in steps, give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
The arbitrary nonsense they used to determine what was an 'assault weapon' years ago demonstrated that perfectly. Pistol grips. Bayonet lugs. KMA.
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Bullshit. Requiring car owners to register and insure their vehicles isn't "taking their cars away". With rights come responsibilities. Guns are useful, like cars, and exceedingly dangerous just like cars.
The Second Amendment absolutists are losing all credibility. The community wants gun ownership to coincide with responsibility, and there's nothing unreasonable nor unconstitutional about that. The community will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of the solution, or just another mewling fool demanding his "freedom" to be selfish?
Since you believe you're the voice of reason here @Jazzhead --- state what you would do. And don't be shy.
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How about making big noise, that the FBI has had many/most of these perps "on the radar?"
We need a better LEO response when they are warned.
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Bullshit. Requiring car owners to register and insure their vehicles isn't "taking their cars away". With rights come responsibilities. Guns are useful, like cars, and exceedingly dangerous just like cars.
The Second Amendment absolutists are losing all credibility. The community wants gun ownership to coincide with responsibility, and there's nothing unreasonable nor unconstitutional about that. The community will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of the solution, or just another mewling fool demanding his "freedom" to be selfish?
Name one society which has implemented large scale gun registration which has not at least sought to disarm its populace.
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How about making big noise, that the FBI has had many/most of these perps "on the radar?"
We need a better LEO response when they are warned.
Yes! And we also need to stop making schools free fire zones for the criminally insane!
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Bullshit. Requiring car owners to register and insure their vehicles isn't "taking their cars away". With rights come responsibilities. Guns are useful, like cars, and exceedingly dangerous just like cars.
The Second Amendment absolutists are losing all credibility. The community wants gun ownership to coincide with responsibility, and there's nothing unreasonable nor unconstitutional about that. The community will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of the solution, or just another mewling fool demanding his "freedom" to be selfish?
Otherwise known as the big lie. Notice how @Oceander started this tactic and now its been picked up by @Jazzhead
Leftists will sacrifice ANYTHING to further their cause. Whether its babies or having to walk on the bodies of these children to further their cause. Anyone who doesn't agree is being "unreasonable" or "dangerous".
America has over 300 million firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens. Almost all murders take place in a fraction of the counties in this country. Most locations are essentially murder free, yet they have lots of firearms.
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Bullshit. Requiring car owners to register and insure their vehicles isn't "taking their cars away". With rights come responsibilities. Guns are useful, like cars, and exceedingly dangerous just like cars.
The Second Amendment absolutists are losing all credibility. The community wants gun ownership to coincide with responsibility, and there's nothing unreasonable nor unconstitutional about that. The community will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of the solution, or just another mewling fool demanding his "freedom" to be selfish?
Apples and oranges. There was never any constitutional right to own a horse, wagon or any form of transportation. You can't compare something explicitly stated in the Constitution to something that's not.
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Apples and oranges. There was never any constitutional right to own a horse, wagon or any form of transportation. You can't compare something explicitly stated in the Constitution to something that's not.
Jazz thinks he has us "absolutists" (people who think "shall not be infringed" means what it says) on the run, which is why he's being extra-super-obnoxious with his demands we allow him to snap up all the guns. Happens every time there's a shooting like this. This is how liberals act when they think they are winning.
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You misunderstand. Gun restrictions ARE coming...You have a choice to make as a conservative. Work to make sure the restrictions are reasonable, efficacious and constitutional. Or let the left dictate what happens to your rights. But the absolutist position can no longer be maintained.
The Second Amendment absolutists are losing all credibility. The community wants gun ownership to coincide with responsibility, and there's nothing unreasonable nor unconstitutional about that. The community will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of the solution, or just another mewling fool demanding his "freedom" to be selfish?
Speech, press and religious exercise restrictions ARE coming... you have a choice; work to make sure the restrictions are reasonable, efficacious and good for the community - or let the Left dictate the criminalization of thought and belief. But the absolutist position on the First Amendment can no longer be maintained, Constitutional absolutists are losing all credibility. The Proletariat will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of that solution, or just another selfish fool who believes in liberty?
As I said earlier, what you demand will have bought yourself a war.
Because one thing is absolutely certain - you can ban all semi-automatic weapons for sale - and after the next massacre, you will come back to tell us that we must make it illegal to have possession of any semi-automatic weapon, and after the next massacre you and your kind will come back and say 'enough is enough, NO ONE may possess any instrument that can be used as a deadly weapon'.
Erosion of liberty never stops with you people. Not until you have an entire population subjugated in a police state with only elitists like yourselves being exempt from the tyranny you impose on the rest of us so you can feel safe and secure.
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Speech, press and religious exercise restrictions ARE coming... you have a choice; work to make sure the restrictions are reasonable, efficacious and good for the community - or let the Left dictate the criminalization of thought and belief. But the absolutist position on the First Amendment can no longer be maintained, Constitutional absolutists are losing all credibility. The Proletariat will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of that solution, or just another selfish fool who believes in liberty?
As I said earlier, what you demand will have bought yourself a war.
Because one thing is absolutely certain - you can ban all semi-automatic weapons for sale - and after the next massacre, you will come back to tell us that we must make it illegal to have possession of any semi-automatic weapon, and after the next massacre you and your kind will come back and say 'enough is enough, NO ONE may possess any instrument that can be used as a deadly weapon'.
Erosion of liberty never stops with you people. Not until you have an entire population subjugated in a police state with only elitists like yourselves being exempt from the tyranny you impose on the rest of us so you can feel safe and secure.
This is not the time to meekly assume restrictions ARE coming, and start negotiating the terms of our surrender. Now is the time to dig in to defend our position.
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You think they're going to be happy with registration? That's just the beginning. Once you give them an inch they will take a mile. You will be basically conceding to them the point that guns are responsible for the violence.
Guns aren't responsible for violence. But they sure do facilitate violence. It's your right to protect your home and hearth by owning a gun (or guns). But it is the community's right to demand that legal ownership include licensure, registration and insurance, just as everyone accepts with respect to cars.
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This is not the time to meekly assume restrictions ARE coming, and start negotiating the terms of our surrender. Now is the time to dig in to defend our position.
Go right ahead. You'll be marginalized, because the absolutist position is no longer tenable (and unsupported by the Constitution - see Justice Scalia about that).
But you can still choose to be a valuable part of the debate over how to restrict guns in a way that is reasonable, efficacious and constitutional. Or you can, like INVAR, selfishly threaten to "start a war".
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Jazz thinks he has us "absolutists" (people who think "shall not be infringed" means what it says) on the run, which is why he's being extra-super-obnoxious with his demands we allow him to snap up all the guns. Happens every time there's a shooting like this. This is how liberals act when they think they are winning.
No this is how ordinary Americans react when idiots shoot up schools week after week after week. It's not about "winning" - 17 kids sure as hell didn't win yesterday when a bully with a chip on his shoulder and an AR-15 shot them to death.
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Go right ahead. You'll be marginalized, because the absolutist position is no longer tenable (and unsupported by the Constitution - see Justice Scalia about that).
But you can still choose to be a valuable part of the debate over how to restrict guns in a way that is reasonable, efficacious and constitutional. Or you can, like INVAR, selfishly threaten to "start a war".
I can still be a "valuable part of the debate" by negotiating my surrender? Go straight to Hell.
So this is how you act when you think you have people on the run. What a piece of work.
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This is not the time to meekly assume restrictions ARE coming, and start negotiating the terms of our surrender. Now is the time to dig in to defend our position.
The guns involved are merely the tools used. The problem goes much deeper than that, and the question is one of why in the last three decades these incidents started occurring?
Let's look at the changes in policy (at the school level), in the assumptions made about behaviour, in the ways of dealing with those behaviours from an early age, not just by schools, but by parents and other organizations and see what has changed to foster an environment that makes little monsters who go back to the schools to shoot the place up. Why the schools and not shopping malls or grocery stores?
Because that's where the anger is seeded and grows.
This appears to be as much a developmental issue as anything else, perhaps more so. Medication does not lead to development, nor (apparently) do current policies. Granted there are cultural influences as well (music, media, etc.), but the root of the problem is where the anger is being taken out. Start looking there.
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The gun-control advocates want one thing and one thing only, total confiscation, they're just willing to do it in steps, give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
So, what's your plan?
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Apples and oranges. There was never any constitutional right to own a horse, wagon or any form of transportation. You can't compare something explicitly stated in the Constitution to something that's not.
I agree. The Constitution specifically speaks of guns in the context of a "well regulated militia". There's Constitutional authority to regulate the gun right (see Heller); the document's silent about the other stuff.
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I agree. The Constitution specifically speaks of guns in the context of a "well regulated militia". There's Constitutional authority to regulate the gun right (see Heller); the document's silent about the other stuff.
Yep, the people were to have uninfringed access to their own arms to keep the Army from taking over.
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Apples and oranges. There was never any constitutional right to own a horse, wagon or any form of transportation. You can't compare something explicitly stated in the Constitution to something that's not.
I'm not sure I accept that. The right to own property is the basis for all of our other rights. Take that away and we have no real rights. So, if something is legal and available, and you can afford it, you have a right to own it. Taking it on the roads may be another issue.
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There are plenty of things that can be done without enacting one single gun law.
Such as? Like i said, im not an advocate for gun seizure, but the writing on the wall is clear to me, even if it isn’t to the rest of yall, so something needs to change and the change needs to be effective.
One more school massacre where it turns out the killer was mentally off but still managed to buy a gun legally, and I give even odds for a successful move to make civilian ownership of fire arms illegal, up to and including an amendment to the Constitution to remove the second amendment.
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Update: A White Supremacist has told reporters that Cruz was an member and participated in "training".
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Such as? Like i said, im not an advocate for gun seizure, but the writing on the wall is clear to me, even if it isn’t to the rest of yall, so something needs to change and the change needs to be effective.
One more school massacre where it turns out the killer was mentally off but still managed to buy a gun legally, and I give even odds for a successful move to make civilian ownership of fire arms illegal, up to and including an amendment to the Constitution to remove the second amendment.
Nope. That was said after Columbine, your hero (I assume) even made a movie about it. It's said after every tragedy like this by the ghouls who hope to use the blood of children to write new laws to further restrict the rights of people who didn't do the crime.
Go ahead and declare "victory" and "inevitable" all you like, I choose to...disagree.
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Update: A White Supremacist has told reporters that Cruz was an member and participated in "training".
Yeah just heard that on the radio news... :facepalm2:
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Guns aren't responsible for violence. But they sure do facilitate violence. It's your right to protect your home and hearth by owning a gun (or guns). But it is the community's right to demand that legal ownership include licensure, registration and insurance, just as everyone accepts with respect to cars.
It is ALSO the community's right, to expect results from LE agencies like the FBI, since we pay them to perform vital public safety functions.
This perp was "on the radar." But the FBI was too busy protecting Hillary and framing Trump.
Blame this one on the FBI. Fix the FBI. That means new laws in 50 states, to REQUIRE that LE detain suspects, BEFORE, not after mass murders occur.
In my jurisdiction it is called "5150" for the 72 hour hold in cases of "threat to themselves or others."
This perp posted his intent to perform mass murder, the FBI was notified within hours, and proceeded to take no meaningful action.
Fix the Laws and fix the FBI.
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On the contrary, it is those hollering about new laws who are reacting emotionally.
Rational people understand that more laws, like the 'gun-free schools law', will never solve this problem.
Yep. Might as well call it the ‘sitting duck targets in school’ law.
I’d rather have the ‘we are armed and will shoot you dead if you come here intending student harm’ law
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This is not the time to meekly assume restrictions ARE coming, and start negotiating the terms of our surrender.
Tell that to Oceander and Jazzy - well, never mind Jazzy - he has been advocating the vigorous surrender of Rights to 'reasonable restrictions' that keep morphing into abolishment, criminalization and punishment since I've been on this board.
Now is the time to dig in to defend our position.
We are past the point of having any kind of reasonable discussion on the matter.
Defending our position at this point requires putting the fear of a kinetic response to tyrants who are stupid enough to do what these idiots like Jazzy are advocating.
The problem is not guns. It's never been about the tools used to commit murder. Rather the spiritual morass of evil our culture has created and celebrated for itself. Mass murder is simply the consequence. The problem's root is due a society that has discarded wholesale, God and His Laws that sustained and protected their forbears, replaced with a neo-morality using government-as-god based on self gratification and the basest impulses of human nature.
This kind of horror - we have brought upon ourselves - because we have rejected the Hedge that protected us from these evils.
And as these things continue to increase in frequency and intensity - instead of turning back to God - society hardens it's heart, showcases its hatred for those even suggesting what I just wrote and goes full-bore on attempting to eradicate rights and liberties in a vain and silly attempt to give themselves the illusion of safety and security.
Because I have called and you refused to listen,
have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
because you have ignored all my counsel
and would have none of my reproof,
I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when terror strikes you,
when terror strikes you like a storm
and your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
when distress and anguish come upon you.
Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;
they will seek me diligently but will not find me.
Because they hated knowledge
and did not choose the fear of the LORD,
would have none of my counsel
and despised all my reproof,
therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way,
and have their fill of their own devices.
For the simple are killed by their turning away,
and the complacency of fools destroys them;
Proverbs 1: 24-32
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I understand the rational argument that we ought to participate in the discussion of new, "reasonable" gun control measures because... well... we will wake up one day and it will be done for us, without us, despite us.
But, I don't subscribe to that thought.
The end-point goal of the left is confiscation and banishment of guns. For them, despite their platitudes, there is no point between here and there that will satisfy them. The goal: confiscate, ban, and criminalize guns. While they'd love to do it in one fell swoop, they will accept incremental steps in the process. Theirs is a relentless and often silent process of taking a million steps to reach their goal; any goal actually. They are patient and will exploit every mass murder event to ratchet up the rhetoric and to take one more baby step towards their end goal.
I will not do their bidding. I will fight and resist every tiny incremental step they take along the way while trying to gain some of my own. But, I sure as heck won't Neville Chamberlain this matter. I will not.
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I'm not sure I accept that. The right to own property is the basis for all of our other rights. Take that away and we have no real rights. So, if something is legal and available, and you can afford it, you have a right to own it. Taking it on the roads may be another issue.
Think about it for a moment, though. You can buy a car, motorcycle, ATV - whatever, and not insure or tag it, then drive it all over your property without penalty. Taking it on the road would be a violation of many laws. There's no scenario where just owning the firearm wouldn't require registration and insurance under the previous proposal. You can't penalize people for exercising a right.
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Guns aren't responsible for violence. But they sure do facilitate violence. It's your right to protect your home and hearth by owning a gun (or guns). But it is the community's right to demand that legal ownership include licensure, registration and insurance, just as everyone accepts with respect to cars.
And when that leads to more vehicular slaughter, because we just know registration will stop gun attacks. Or sick people use knives and machetes or propane tank bombs or fertilizer and other chemical bombs? You can't register and license away evil or mental illness no matter how many people's rights are infringed.
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Nope. That was said after Columbine, your hero (I assume) even made a movie about it. It's said after every tragedy like this by the ghouls who hope to use the blood of children to write new laws to further restrict the rights of people who didn't do the crime.
Go ahead and declare "victory" and "inevitable" all you like, I choose to...disagree.
The fact that you feel the need to demonize me, despite the fact that I am clearly not advocating for something like gun seizure, demonstrates the weakness of your position.
How many children are going to die because a mentally disturbed individual was able to legally purchase a fire arm?
If my daughter had been one of those killed, I can tell you right now that if you couldn’t come up with something better than “evil†and “what can you doâ€, then my solution would be to advocate for a complete ban on fire arms in civilian hands, period, and I’d be supporting an amendment to the Constituion to gut the second amendment as a dangerous anachronism that has no place in civilized society.
Don’t fool yourself. Each school massacre creates more people who will ardently believe that way, and eventually there will be enough to make it happen.
In fact, y’all are lucky that full autos like the Mac-10 were banned back in the 1980s, because if this kid and the one before him had used a full auto, and the death toll was in the hundreds, the Second Amendment would be gone.
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Yeah just heard that on the radio news... :facepalm2:
I'm not so sure I put much credence in a White Supremacist but there it is.
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I understand the rational argument that we ought to participate in the discussion of new, "reasonable" gun control measures because... well... we will wake up one day and it will be done for us, without us, despite us.
But, I don't subscribe to that thought.
The end-point goal of the left is confiscation and banishment of guns. For them, despite their platitudes, there is no point between here and there that will satisfy them. The goal: confiscate, ban, and criminalize guns. While they'd love to do it in one fell swoop, they will accept incremental steps in the process. Theirs is a relentless and often silent process of taking a million steps to reach their goal; any goal actually. They are patient and will exploit every mass murder event to ratchet up the rhetoric and to take one more baby step towards their end goal.
I will not do their bidding. I will fight and resist every tiny incremental step they take along the way while trying to gain some of my own. But, I sure as heck won't Neville Chamberlain this matter. I will not.
:patriot:
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Guns aren't responsible for violence. But they sure do facilitate violence. It's your right to protect your home and hearth by owning a gun (or guns). But it is the community's right to demand that legal ownership include licensure, registration and insurance, just as everyone accepts with respect to cars.
@Jazzhead
Name one society that did what you suggest and saw a decrease in violent crime.
Communities don't have rights. States do, people do, communities dont.
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And when that leads to more vehicular slaughter, because we just know registration will stop gun attacks. Or sick people use knives and machetes or propane tank bombs or fertilizer and other chemical bombs? You can't register and license away evil or mental illness no matter how many people's rights are infringed.
That’s such a facetious point I’m surprised you would even bother to make it. If this kid had been limited to a knife, 17 people, mostly kids, would not now be dead.
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The fact that you feel the need to demonize me, despite the fact that I am clearly not advocating for something like gun seizure, demonstrates the weakness of your position.
How many children are going to die because a mentally disturbed individual was able to legally purchase a fire arm?
If my daughter had been one of those killed, I can tell you right now that if you couldn’t come up with something better than “evil†and “what can you doâ€, then my solution would be to advocate for a complete ban on fire arms in civilian hands, period, and I’d be supporting an amendment to the Constituion to gut the second amendment as a dangerous anachronism that has no place in civilized society.
Don’t fool yourself. Each school massacre creates more people who will ardently believe that way, and eventually there will be enough to make it happen.
In fact, y’all are lucky that full autos like the Mac-10 were banned back in the 1980s, because if this kid and the one before him had used a full auto, and the death toll was in the hundreds, the Second Amendment would be gone.
@Oceander
What are you advocating for? You still refuse to say.
BTW, Mac10s are horribly difficult to shoot accurately. More than likely the death toll would have been lower.
Now if he had used a shotgun or bomb, or knife, then things could have been worse.
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The fact that you feel the need to demonize me, despite the fact that I am clearly not advocating for something like gun seizure, demonstrates the weakness of your position.
How many children are going to die because a mentally disturbed individual was able to legally purchase a fire arm?
If my daughter had been one of those killed, I can tell you right now that if you couldn’t come up with something better than “evil†and “what can you doâ€, then my solution would be to advocate for a complete ban on fire arms in civilian hands, period, and I’d be supporting an amendment to the Constituion to gut the second amendment as a dangerous anachronism that has no place in civilized society.
Don’t fool yourself. Each school massacre creates more people who will ardently believe that way, and eventually there will be enough to make it happen.
In fact, y’all are lucky that full autos like the Mac-10 were banned back in the 1980s, because if this kid and the one before him had used a full auto, and the death toll was in the hundreds, the Second Amendment would be gone.
Demonize you? Is it really necessary to make it about you?
You and Jazz have convinced me that I need to fight harder than ever to keep you people away from my weapons. If you say you don't want to seize them, then you are lying because you want to "register and insure" them. What do you intend to do when I refuse? Seize them.
Start telling the truth about your intentions and you'll get more respect.
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I understand the rational argument that we ought to participate in the discussion of new, "reasonable" gun control measures because... well... we will wake up one day and it will be done for us, without us, despite us.
But, I don't subscribe to that thought.
The end-point goal of the left is confiscation and banishment of guns. For them, despite their platitudes, there is no point between here and there that will satisfy them. The goal: confiscate, ban, and criminalize guns. While they'd love to do it in one fell swoop, they will accept incremental steps in the process. Theirs is a relentless and often silent process of taking a million steps to reach their goal; any goal actually. They are patient and will exploit every mass murder event to ratchet up the rhetoric and to take one more baby step towards their end goal.
I will not do their bidding. I will fight and resist every tiny incremental step they take along the way while trying to gain some of my own. But, I sure as heck won't Neville Chamberlain this matter. I will not.
Then you have already conceded to them, because if gun owners do not constructively and creatively engage with the issue, there will be nobody to oppose the left when the school massacre that hits the tipping point takes place.
You say you won’t give in to the left. By refusing to see a problem that needs creative solutions, you already have.
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That’s such a facetious point I’m surprised you would even bother to make it. If this kid had been limited to a knife, 17 people, mostly kids, would not now be dead.
@Oceander
Right the death toll would probably have been higher because it would have taken the kids longer to recognize the danger. These kids were packed tightly together as in all schools.
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But you can still choose to be a valuable part of the debate over how to restrict guns...Or you can, like INVAR, selfishly threaten to "start a war".
As I will tell any and all advocates of tyranny - it's not a threat Jazzy - IT'S A PROMISE.
If you want to work to abolish in practicality, the Second Amendment and declare it a 'reasonable restriction' you go right ahead.
You have absolutely no understanding or comprehension of what you will start.
But I know for certain you will rue the day your ideas were actually attempted to be implemented.
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Then you have already conceded to them, because if gun owners do not constructively and creatively engage with the issue, there will be nobody to oppose the left when the school massacre that hits the tipping point takes place.
You say you won’t give in to the left. By refusing to see a problem that needs creative solutions, you already have.
@Oceander
Gun owners have 'compromised' for decades. You refuse to see the problem and are bending this issue to fit your agenda.
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As I will tell any and all advocates of tyranny - it's not a threat Jazzy - IT'S A PROMISE.
If you want to work to abolish in practicality, the Second Amendment and declare it a 'reasonable restriction' you go right ahead.
You have absolutely no understanding or comprehension of what you will start.
But I know for certain you will rue the day your ideas were actually attempted to be implemented.
@INVAR
Its sadly ironic that people like him are more than happy to use the govts guns and govts violence to impose their version of safety on the population.
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@Jazzhead
Name one society that did what you suggest and saw a decrease in violent crime.
Communities don't have rights. States do, people do, communities dont.
States don't either. Sates and communities have authority, people, and only people have rights, and one of the most important is the right to defend ourselves. Their protestations to the contrary, the ones counseling surrender on this thread wish to deny thee and me that right.
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How about making big noise, that the FBI has had many/most of these perps "on the radar?"
We need a better LEO response when they are warned.
This tragedy could have been stopped a year ago...six months ago...hell even last week if someone had simply contacted the local Sheriffs department or police department.
I mean the kid had been giving big enough signals on social media he was going to to something like this that even a blin man could have seen them.
And yet people remained silent.
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Florida school shooter belonged to white supremacist group, leader claims
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/374050-white-supremacist-group-leader-claims-florida-school-shooter-was (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/374050-white-supremacist-group-leader-claims-florida-school-shooter-was)
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There was never any constitutional right to own a horse, wagon or any form of transportation.
The Constitution gives no power to Congress to ban those things.
You can't compare something explicitly stated in the Constitution to something that's not.
I guess some of the Framers were right...the Bill of Rights would give some people the wrong idea that only enumerated rights exist. 8888crybaby
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@Oceander
Gun owners have 'compromised' for decades. You refuse to see the problem and are bending this issue to fit your agenda.
Too bad. You’re dealing with a very dangerous tool that can be easily used to create mayhem, as has been demonstrated once again. More compromise is necessary because if gun owners cannot come up with a method for preventing mentally disturbed individuals from being able to legally buy fire arms and then go on a massacre like this, then they will lose their guns, period.
There’s a reason why you can no longer own a full auto without special licensing. The things are just too damned dangerous. There’s a reason why you can’t go to Home Depot and buy a stick of dynamite to get rid of a tree stump: it’s too damned dangerous.
If gun owners cannot come up with a creative way of making sure that fire arms, period, are not considered to be too damned dangerous as well, they will lose them.
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Reality is Bad Enough
by Erick Erickson
<..snip..>
According to reporters, there have been 11 school shootings so far in 2018. In fact, some media outlets have reported there has been a mass shooting every two days since the beginning of 2018. But all that data is misleading. The data come from leftwing activist groups that have decided to alter the definition of “mass shooting†to boost the numbers.
Everytown for Gun Safety is one of those groups and has done the most to get reporters and supposedly objective journalists to use the altered data for propaganda purposes. As Stephen Gutowski of the Washington Free Beacon notes, “This broad definition [of school shootings] places two separate suicides, a January 9 incident where a man shot a BB gun at a bus window resulting in no injuries; a January 10 incident where a student in a criminal justice club accidentally shot a peace officer's real gun at a target on a classroom wall instead of a training gun resulting in no injuries; a January 9 incident where gun shots were fired from somewhere outside of Cal State San Bernardino, which struck a building on campus without injuries; and other incidents next to the murder of a Winston-Salem State University student at a nightclub on the Wake Forest University campus, the January 22 shooting of a 15-year-old at a Dallas-area high school, and Tuesday's Marshall County High School shooting which left 2 dead and 18 others injured.â€
https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/erick-erickson/reality-is-bad-enough-H79v7Ywg00a0zYZr4nJJHQ (https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/erick-erickson/reality-is-bad-enough-H79v7Ywg00a0zYZr4nJJHQ)
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Too bad. You’re dealing with a very dangerous tool that can be easily used to create mayhem, as has been demonstrated once again. More compromise is necessary because if gun owners cannot come up with a method for preventing mentally disturbed individuals from being able to legally buy fire arms and then go on a massacre like this, then they will lose their guns, period.
There’s a reason why you can no longer own a full auto without special licensing. The things are just too damned dangerous. There’s a reason why you can’t go to Home Depot and buy a stick of dynamite to get rid of a tree stump: it’s too damned dangerous.
If gun owners cannot come up with a creative way of making sure that fire arms, period, are not considered to be too damned dangerous as well, they will lose them.
@Oceander
You must have one of those Staples buttons, you press it and it says the same thing every time.
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Just a little food for thought for you "common sense/register and insure" folks
Harvard study.
A study which was recently published by Harvard took a look at firearm ownership, gun laws and violent crime, and suicide rates around the world. The authors sought to answer the question would banning firearms reduce murder and suicide?
The study, which was conducted by Don B. Kates, an American criminologist and constitutional lawyer, and Gary Mauser, a Canadian criminologist and university professor, offered a stark truth: More guns does not equal more deaths and less guns does not equal less deaths.
Kates and Mauser claim in the study that while some international comparisons have been viewed as evidence that more guns equals more deaths and therefore to reduce guns will reduce deaths, they indicate that some of these studies use inaccurate or misleading information to obtain the results.
According to the study, the so-called fact that the reason the murder rate is so high in the United States compared with other modern developed countries is due to the U.S. having uniquely easy access to guns, is simply not true. The study indicates those homicide rates are not an accurate representation and moreover, that those rates have nothing to do with the number of firearms in the country.
http://www.guns.com/2013/08/30/harvard-study-concludes-gun-control-prevent-murders-violent-crime/ (http://www.guns.com/2013/08/30/harvard-study-concludes-gun-control-prevent-murders-violent-crime/)
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@INVAR
Its sadly ironic that people like him are more than happy to use the govts guns and govts violence to impose their version of safety on the population.
Of course. It's what advocates for tyranny are all about. Government is their god and the tool to be used to punish everyone that offends them or does not make them feel 'safe'.
You know what is more sad than that?
That Proverbs 1: 24-32 is something rejected, or not even considered by a people bewildered after a calamity.
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As I will tell any and all advocates of tyranny - it's not a threat Jazzy - IT'S A PROMISE.
If you want to work to abolish in practicality, the Second Amendment and declare it a 'reasonable restriction' you go right ahead.
You have absolutely no understanding or comprehension of what you will start.
But I know for certain you will rue the day your ideas were actually attempted to be implemented.
Jazzy and O both seem to think if a repeal of the 2nd Amendment is proposed, this school shooting is going to push support for this over the top in 2/3rds of each house of the Legislature and 3/4 of the states. I just don't see it.
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This tragedy could have been stopped a year ago...six months ago...hell even last week if someone had simply contacted the local Sheriffs department or police department.
I mean the kid had been giving big enough signals on social media he was going to to something like this that even a blin man could have seen them.
And yet people remained silent.
What should the police have done? Confiscated his weapons because he seemed dangerous to them? Should they have erred to the side of caution and confiscated them unless he could prove that under no circumstances would he actually be a threat?
You need to think though the implications of any system like that carefully because sufficient discretion in the hands of law enforcement will result in a lot of fire arms being confiscated on the grounds of potential danger.
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White supremacist group per members of 4 chan? Anyway, I'm tending to think this shooter has a Cuban heritage vs. other ethnic groups.
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Jazzy and O both seem to think if a repeal of the 2nd Amendment is proposed, this school shooting is going to push support for this over the top in 2/3rds of each house of the Legislature and 3/4 of the states. I just don't see it.
No, not just this one. It’ll be the next one, or the one after that, but if nothing is done other than more hand-wringing, it will happen.
Put yourself in the shoes of a parent whose kid was just massacred by this guy; don’t you think you’d be demanding to know why a palpably mentally disturbed kid was able to legally buy an AR-15?
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:facepalm2:
You were warned. You can either participate in crafting the new laws, or you can passively accept whatever laws the left decides to enact, what you cannot do is pretend that nothing will change.
I will not passively accept proposals for bad laws.
To ignore demonstrated reality, more restrictive gun laws create more victim zones, is insane.
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What should the police have done? Confiscated his weapons because he seemed dangerous to them? Should they have erred to the side of caution and confiscated them unless he could prove that under no circumstances would he actually be a threat?
You need to think though the implications of any system like that carefully because sufficient discretion in the hands of law enforcement will result in a lot of fire arms being confiscated on the grounds of potential danger.
I think he should have been given a psychological evaluation and then, committed if they found him questionable. With whom he was living needed to be talked to as well, per his getting an AR15.
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What should the police have done? Confiscated his weapons because he seemed dangerous to them? Should they have erred to the side of caution and confiscated them unless he could prove that under no circumstances would he actually be a threat?
You need to think though the implications of any system like that carefully because sufficient discretion in the hands of law enforcement will result in a lot of fire arms being confiscated on the grounds of potential danger.
@Oceander
Making a threat of violence to a school is already a crime and could have been prosecuted.
but you knew that
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No, not just this one. It’ll be the next one, or the one after that, but if nothing is done other than more hand-wringing, it will happen.
Put yourself in the shoes of a parent whose kid was just massacred by this guy; don’t you think you’d be demanding to know why a palpably mentally disturbed kid was able to legally buy an AR-15?
When I try to put myself in the shoes of the parents of these kids, I just get more furious at the ghouls trying to use their blood to advance their petty political goals. Can you guess at who I consider the ghouls?
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What should the police have done? Confiscated his weapons because he seemed dangerous to them? Should they have erred to the side of caution and confiscated them unless he could prove that under no circumstances would he actually be a threat?
You need to think though the implications of any system like that carefully because sufficient discretion in the hands of law enforcement will result in a lot of fire arms being confiscated on the grounds of potential danger.
There was a credible threat in what he said and posted on FB. They could have done a knock and talk to judge if he was serious or just talking trash.
If the police believe they had someone who was a danger to himself and others to implement whatever version of the baker Act that Florida has.
He wasn't allowed on campus with a back pack...teachers were told when he was attending there to "keep an eye on him".
As I said before this could have been prevented before it ever happened...but everyone swallowed their tongues.
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If gun owners cannot come up with a creative way of making sure that fire arms, period, are not considered to be too damned dangerous as well, they will lose them.
The idiocy of that statement in itself is astounding.
But - as offered elsewhere - the only way I'm losing my firearms is if you empower the government to kill all of us who refuse to surrender them.
And being an agent of the state charged with enforcing such a policy will be a job few to none will want.
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@Oceander
You must have one of those Staples buttons, you press it and it says the same thing every time.
I haven’t offered any easy solutions, mate, just a warning that hard work on getting creative, effective, results had better be done now, or the liberals will use their “Easy†button and make gun ownership illegal, period.
So, please, continue to flame me and insult me; I can take it. Just don’t kid yourself into thinking your guns are safe if only you hyperventilate and wring your hands about all the evil in the world and how we can’t escape it.
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I guess some of the Framers were right...the Bill of Rights would give some people the wrong idea that only enumerated rights exist.
You had better be glad they did get enumerate them, because it’s very doubtful this discussion board would even exist, much less a lot of other rights that would’ve been done away with long before now.
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Jazzy and O both seem to think if a repeal of the 2nd Amendment is proposed, this school shooting is going to push support for this over the top in 2/3rds of each house of the Legislature and 3/4 of the states. I just don't see it.
I posted this story elsewhere on the net
https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/04/asia/china-kindergarten-knife-attack/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/04/asia/china-kindergarten-knife-attack/index.html)
A gun control advocate responded "But think how much Worse it would have been if he'd had a gun."
How much worse could it already be than to chop up 5 year olds with a knife?
@Cyber Liberty
There's no reasoning with that mindset friend. None.
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The idiocy of that statement in itself is astounding.
But - as offered elsewhere - the only way I'm losing my firearms is if you empower the government to kill all of us who refuse to surrender them.
And being an agent of the state charged with enforcing such a policy will be a job few to none will want.
You kid yourself if you think it wouldn’t be easy for law enforcement to shoot you dead if you violently resist an order to confiscate your fire arms.
Remember Waco? Remember all the times someone died because some trigger happy cop on a bust pulled the trigger before thinking things through?
You wouldn’t last a minute, and other than a small handful of outsiders, you wouldn’t be much mourned, either.
That is, if you and the other gun owners do nothing, concede nothing, and let liberals push the legislative agenda.
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So what's this guy's freeper name?
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There was a credible threat in what he said and posted on FB. They could have done a knock and talk to judge if he was serious or just talking trash.
If the police believe they had someone who was a danger to himself and others to implement whatever version of the baker Act that Florida has.
He wasn't allowed on campus with a back pack...teachers were told when he was attending there to "keep an eye on him".
As I said before this could have been prevented before it ever happened...but everyone swallowed their tongues.
And now the entire discussion is about coercing the willful surrender of the right to keep and bear arms, because if we do not agree to 'reasonable infringements' then we are told we will lose the entire Amendment itself and have our arms confiscated.
Which serves the bigger picture of what we are being fundamentally transformed into.
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@Oceander
Good grief, <>
Flame away, mate, flame away. Killing the messenger doesn’t kill the message. It merely illustrates the desperation of those who would kill the messenger.
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Flame away, mate, flame away. Killing the messenger doesn’t kill the message. It merely illustrates the desperation of those who would kill the messenger.
It's not much different than pointing out Cracked.com is not a reliable source to get your news. :shrug:
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Update: A White Supremacist has told reporters that Cruz was an member and participated in "training".
Oh, great. Another ‘white’ Hispanic. Oddly, only the second one found in America.
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There was a credible threat in what he said and posted on FB. They could have done a knock and talk to judge if he was serious or just talking trash.
If the police believe they had someone who was a danger to himself and others to implement whatever version of the baker Act that Florida has.
He wasn't allowed on campus with a back pack...teachers were told when he was attending there to "keep an eye on him".
As I said before this could have been prevented before it ever happened...but everyone swallowed their tongues.
How far are you willing to go with preventive detentions and confiscations? Since a judge would not have been available immediately for a hearing, should his guns have been seized preventively until a hearing, and any appeals from that hearing, could be held?
What about some of the folks here who have done things like posting pictures of people being executed by hanging to make their point over what they think should happen to be FBI and DOJ people who were involved in the Trump spy fiasco? Is that a sufficient threat against government officials that would justify preventively arresting them and seizing their weapons, and then having a hearing on whether they are enough of a danger that they should be permanently disarmed?
What about an online discussion forum that countenances that sort of stuff?
It’s very easy to state the concept in the abstract and after the fact; it’s a lot harder to draw up the rules to apply prospectively, before anything has happened.
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Stop pretending that you can maintain the status quo by claiming helplessness in the face of repeated school massacres undertaken with firearms.
There will be new laws on guns; you can either participate in how they’re written and stave off, say, outright seizure, but have to agree to some more restrictions, or you can do nothing and cry in your tea when liberals enact gun seizure laws.
Status quo or more restrictive gun laws are not the only options.
Texas school district allows armed teachers
http://www.kcbd.com/story/20387667/texas-school-district-allows-armed-teachers (http://www.kcbd.com/story/20387667/texas-school-district-allows-armed-teachers)
We need to value our children as much as the bank values money.
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It's not much different than pointing out Cracked.com is not a reliable source to get your news. :shrug:
And more. Flame away. I know you hate what im saying, but so far I haven’t seen anything other than more ineffectual hand-wringing, and eventually that ain’t gonna cut it any more.
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Status quo or more restrictive gun laws are not the only options.
Texas school district allows armed teachers
http://www.kcbd.com/story/20387667/texas-school-district-allows-armed-teachers (http://www.kcbd.com/story/20387667/texas-school-district-allows-armed-teachers)
We need to value our children as much as the bank values money.
So we should turn our schools into armed camps?
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You kid yourself if you think it wouldn’t be easy for law enforcement to shoot you dead if you violently resist an order to confiscate your fire arms.
Remember Waco? Remember all the times someone died because some trigger happy cop on a bust pulled the trigger before thinking things through?
Wow.
Welcome to your tyranny comrade. Hope you enjoy it.
I am certainly glad our forefathers did not subscribe and surrender to a similar warning about the might and unstoppable power of the British Army to do the King's Justice.
You wouldn’t last a minute, and other than a small handful of outsiders, you wouldn’t be much mourned, either.
Some things are worth fighting, killing and dying for, even if the rest of society no longer finds any value in it and accepts what is being imposed.
That is, if you and the other gun owners do nothing, concede nothing, and let liberals push the legislative agenda.
Concession is surrender.
I have no plans to surrender, even if you are urging us all to do so out of fear of what the Left and the government will do to us for refusing to comply with tyranny.
“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.†- Winston Churchill
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I agree, the only thing that would stop a lot of these shootings is total confiscation as in what Australia has done as I understand it and that is never going to happen.
Australia continues to have mass murder's. Death by fire, vehicle or knife is still death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers_Hill,_New_South_Wales#Nursing_home_fire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2017_Melbourne_car_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairns_child_killings
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And more. Flame away. I know you hate what im saying, but so far I haven’t seen anything other than more ineffectual hand-wringing, and eventually that ain’t gonna cut it any more.
I don't "hate" what you are saying, I just think you're <>. There's a difference.
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You kid yourself if you think it wouldn’t be easy for law enforcement to shoot you dead if you violently resist an order to confiscate your fire arms.
Remember Waco? Remember all the times someone died because some trigger happy cop on a bust pulled the trigger before thinking things through?
You wouldn’t last a minute, and other than a small handful of outsiders, you wouldn’t be much mourned, either.
Waco is probably the worst example you could have used. Originally, the BATFE was there to enforce the ‘E’ portion, since the Davidians were reportedly purchasing grenades shells and fully assembling them. Instead of arresting Koresh in town, they foolishly chose to make a high profile raid on the compound. That standoff lasted 51 days and was not resolved until armored vehicles were called in and started a fire, burning the compound to the ground.
In the end, there was more outrage towards the government over the results than the activity of the kook individuals and activities of the Davidians. In fact, so much outrage was generated that the Murrah Federal Building was bombed in Oklahoma City killing 160+ people. If you think large scale raids and confiscation of firearms from civilians won’t result in similar retaliation, you're crazy. The country will tear itself apart.
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I guess some of the Framers were right...the Bill of Rights would give some people the wrong idea that only enumerated rights exist.
If we'd be better off without a BoR is a tough question. Tough to decide back then and tough to evaluate now.
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No, not just this one. It’ll be the next one, or the one after that, but if nothing is done other than more hand-wringing, it will happen.
Put yourself in the shoes of a parent whose kid was just massacred by this guy; don’t you think you’d be demanding to know why a palpably mentally disturbed kid was able to legally buy an AR-15?
He had a semi-auto AR15. People in the 50s and 60s had semi-auto guns galore, but the children behaved correctly.
It is human behavior which has gone astray, not availability of guns.
Fix the real problem, not the politically correct nonsense.
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I understand the rational argument that we ought to participate in the discussion of new, "reasonable" gun control measures because... well... we will wake up one day and it will be done for us, without us, despite us.
But, I don't subscribe to that thought.
The end-point goal of the left is confiscation and banishment of guns. For them, despite their platitudes, there is no point between here and there that will satisfy them. The goal: confiscate, ban, and criminalize guns. While they'd love to do it in one fell swoop, they will accept incremental steps in the process. Theirs is a relentless and often silent process of taking a million steps to reach their goal; any goal actually. They are patient and will exploit every mass murder event to ratchet up the rhetoric and to take one more baby step towards their end goal.
I will not do their bidding. I will fight and resist every tiny incremental step they take along the way while trying to gain some of my own. But, I sure as heck won't Neville Chamberlain this matter. I will not.
Excellent. Thanks.
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If we'd be better off without a BoR is a tough question. Tough to decide back then and tough to evaluate now.
Those that have the biggest issues with the Patriot Act and FISA courts understand the BoR is barely standing between us and Orwellian rule.
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That’s such a facetious point I’m surprised you would even bother to make it. If this kid had been limited to a knife, 17 people, mostly kids, would not now be dead.
In the Rwandan genocides, most of the half million victims were killed with machetes. You can't assume that anyone would have been able to stop the perp from killing large numbers of people armed with a knife, axe, or other edged weapon.
The gun is a mere tool, the perp is a symptom. I suggest treating the problem, not just the symptoms, or blaming the tool for being misused.
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The Constitution gives no power to Congress to ban those things.
I guess some of the Framers were right...the Bill of Rights would give some people the wrong idea that only enumerated rights exist. 8888crybaby
You forgot the Ninth Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
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Too bad. You’re dealing with a very dangerous tool that can be easily used to create mayhem, as has been demonstrated once again. More compromise is necessary because if gun owners cannot come up with a method for preventing mentally disturbed individuals from being able to legally buy fire arms and then go on a massacre like this, then they will lose their guns, period.
There’s a reason why you can no longer own a full auto without special licensing. The things are just too damned dangerous. There’s a reason why you can’t go to Home Depot and buy a stick of dynamite to get rid of a tree stump: it’s too damned dangerous.
If gun owners cannot come up with a creative way of making sure that fire arms, period, are not considered to be too damned dangerous as well, they will lose them.
Better ban D-9 Cats, then. Who knows (not that I want to) what sort of body count could be racked up with one of those.
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Better ban D-9 Cats, then. Who knows (not that I want to) what sort of body count could be racked up with one of those.
I've noticed lawyers tend to have this overblown sense of self value, that people will just drop everything and do what their Lawyers, Legislatures, cops and Judges tell them to do. There are something like 350 Million guns in this country. How many do you suppose would get registered and insured if the lawyers in this thread ever get their way? Couple million, maybe? Any more than that would likely overwhelm whatever records system they have.
The number of mysterious boating accidents and lawn landscaping jobs would skyrocket.
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There’s a reason why you can no longer own a full auto without special licensing. The things are just too damned dangerous. There’s a reason why you can’t go to Home Depot and buy a stick of dynamite to get rid of a tree stump: it’s too damned dangerous.
Yes. Guns are too damned dangerous and so is dynamite, hand grenades and knives.
But more dangerous than those things put together, is liberty. Especially liberty of belief, speech and press. Together those things contribute to creating the radical mindsets that cause a person to obtain the too damned dangerous things to do harm and murder.
Therefore let us surrender and license speech, press and religious exercise to accomplish the ultimate goal of getting rid of the root cause of murder and mayhem so we can have the illusion of safety and security.
We do not need liberty when we have a government big enough to protect us all from ourselves and give us what they determine we need.
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So we should turn our schools into armed camps?
Its this kind of overwrought rhetoric thats makes me wonder how serious you are.
Who said anything about an armed camp? We're talking about one or two trained agents carrying a concealed weapon.
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Public defender says Cruz is remorseful and on suicide watch... :smokin:
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Cruz (if no one posted this) may indeed have marched with a group, "Republic of Florida", check Drudge and check this ABC news story:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-school-shooting-suspect/story?id=53092753 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-school-shooting-suspect/story?id=53092753)
I know something was posted earlier, I will look for threads, they call this "Republic of Florida" group a white supremacist group.
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Public defender says Cruz is remorseful and on suicide watch... :smokin:
Yesterday, during the arrest when the overhead helicopter shot showed cops patting him down outside the police car, I could have sworn I saw the kid vomit. They ended up taking him to the medical center for 'labored breathing.' The realization of what he'd done was probably setting in after arrest. Too damn bad. These actions have the ultimate consequences.
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That’s such a facetious point I’m surprised you would even bother to make it. If this kid had been limited to a knife, 17 people, mostly kids, would not now be dead.
If the only weapon Tim McVeigh had was a knife, he still would've been able to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City and kill 168 people, because fertilizer and a box truck are not classified by any sane person as weapons.
Osama bin Laden's minions killed thousands, armed with only boxcutters.
People can and will find ways to commit mass slaughter, and if you think you can ban every possible item, it will only lead to an even more totalitarian and oppressive state than we have now.
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If the only weapon Tim McVeigh had was a knife, he still would've been able to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City and kill 168 people, because fertilizer and a box truck are not classified by any sane person as weapons.
Osama bin Laden's minions killed thousands, armed with only boxcutters.
People can and will find ways to commit mass slaughter, and if you think you can ban every possible item, it will only lead to an even more totalitarian and oppressive state than we have now.
You say that like it's a bad thing.... :whistle:
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Someone up thread made a comment about the "well organized Militia" This what the law says about who are to be considered members of the militia:
U.S. Code › Title 10 › Subtitle A › Part I › Chapter 12 › § 246
10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes
(a)
The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b)The classes of the militia are—
the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14, § 311; Pub. L. 85–861, § 1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, § 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656; renumbered § 246, Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, § 1241(a)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497.)
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If the only weapon Tim McVeigh had was a knife, he still would've been able to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City and kill 168 people, because fertilizer and a box truck are not classified by any sane person as weapons.
Osama bin Laden's minions killed thousands, armed with only boxcutters.
People can and will find ways to commit mass slaughter, and if you think you can ban every possible item, it will only lead to an even more totalitarian and oppressive state than we have now.
Well, you are just going to have to accept reality and realize that a totalitarian and oppressive state is coming and inevitable. You just need to stop being selfish and be proactive and productive in having a voice to support what level of totalitarianism and oppression is acceptable and good for Conservatism. Otherwise you will be subject to a more overt and heinous form of totalitarianism and oppression than what you are willing to lend a hand to accept.
Just lay back and enjoy it. It will all be over soon.
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Someone up thread made a comment about the "well organized Militia" This what the law says about who are to be considered members of the militia:
U.S. Code › Title 10 › Subtitle A › Part I › Chapter 12 › § 246
10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes
(a)
The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b)The classes of the militia are—
the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14, § 311; Pub. L. 85–861, § 1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, § 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656; renumbered § 246, Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, § 1241(a)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497.)
@verga
This has been settled by the courts. You do not have to be a member of a militia to have a firearm.
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I've noticed lawyers tend to have this overblown sense of self value, that people will just drop everything and do what their Lawyers, Legislatures, cops and Judges tell them to do. There are something like 350 Million guns in this country. How many do you suppose would get registered and insured if the lawyers in this thread ever get their way? Couple million, maybe? Any more than that would likely overwhelm whatever records system they have.
The number of mysterious boating accidents and lawn landscaping jobs would skyrocket.
If the Canadians can kill their long gun registry with noncompliance, we can, too.
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I've noticed lawyers tend to have this overblown sense of self value, that people will just drop everything and do what their Lawyers, Legislatures, cops and Judges tell them to do. There are something like 350 Million guns in this country. How many do you suppose would get registered and insured if the lawyers in this thread ever get their way? Couple million, maybe? Any more than that would likely overwhelm whatever records system they have.
The number of mysterious boating accidents and lawn landscaping jobs would skyrocket.
However many guns I have at the time if this (God forbid) stupidity being pushed here ever went into law...would suddenly disappear into a place only I know about where I could still access them if necessary.
In other words I'd non comply in a heartbeat.
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In other words I'd non comply in a heartbeat.
Non-compliance to what Jazzy is advocating and Oceander is warning must be done, will be a duty should the state ever grant their wishes.
Hiding your arms is not the answer.
Using your arms when efforts are made to force you to comply with tyranny is the answer.
The only answer.
Live free or die has a meaning.
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Live free or die has a meaning.
Indeed it does.
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If the Canadians can kill their long gun registry with noncompliance, we can, too.
:thumbsup:
Thoreau had the solution to Trudeau. Just say "No."
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So we should turn our schools into armed camps?
Having an unknown few armed is hardly an armed camp.
Just the public knowledge that some are trained and may be armed is a real deterrent.
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Nikolas Cruz's lawyer stood up in court today and said that Cruz feels the pain of the families affected by the shooting.
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You forgot the Ninth Amendment:
Read again, pardner.
I didn't forget it at all. I'm pointing out that others seem to be.
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I've noticed lawyers tend to have this overblown sense of self value, that people will just drop everything and do what their Lawyers, Legislatures, cops and Judges tell them to do. There are something like 350 Million guns in this country. How many do you suppose would get registered and insured if the lawyers in this thread ever get their way? Couple million, maybe? Any more than that would likely overwhelm whatever records system they have.
The number of mysterious boating accidents and lawn landscaping jobs would skyrocket.
No offense....but I HATE these comments about boating accidents, etc.
If it’s time to claim the boating accident nonsense, it’s time to USE them.
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No offense....but I HATE these comments about boating accidents, etc.
If it’s time to claim the boating accident nonsense, it’s time to USE them.
Exactly.
But will we?
There are enough of these types who are advocating our incremental surrender who believe that those who refuse and resist registration, licensing and confiscation orders - will easily get the Waco treatment and problem solved in terms of the State getting rid of society's 'undesirables'.
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Suspect confessed to school shooting, had more ammo in backpack: report
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/374119-suspect-confessed-to-school-shooting-had-more-ammo-in-backpack (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/374119-suspect-confessed-to-school-shooting-had-more-ammo-in-backpack)
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Having an unknown few armed is hardly an armed camp.
Just the public knowledge that some are trained and may be armed is a real deterrent.
:amen:
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28056375_10211399924695789_6951876604060707991_n.jpg?oh=641176bc21dcc68660670206d0e62ea8&oe=5B1CC46E)
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No offense....but I HATE these comments about boating accidents, etc.
If it’s time to claim the boating accident nonsense, it’s time to USE them.
None taken...but since we are not an organized unit, I think it's reasonable to let people come to their own decisions about when it's appropriate and prudent to dig up their caches.
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Suspect confessed to school shooting, had more ammo in backpack: report
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/374119-suspect-confessed-to-school-shooting-had-more-ammo-in-backpack (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/374119-suspect-confessed-to-school-shooting-had-more-ammo-in-backpack)
Thanks for keeping us on track, myst. We need to know as much as we can about this event and the perpetrator.
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That’s such a facetious point I’m surprised you would even bother to make it. If this kid had been limited to a knife, 17 people, mostly kids, would not now be dead.
Bullshiite! If He had a car all he would have hd to do is wait for dismissal and he could have accomplished the same thing, there is nothing facetious about what I wrote cars and trucks have already been used quite effectively, and all you have to do is watch a school dismissal to see how a sick individual could do it. And pretty sure that there have been knife attacks that racked up large numbers.
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I know it's no going to sit well with some, and I hope that they can participate in a civil adult point counter point, but based on what I read so far, I doubt it. As an NRA member and gun owner (even the deadly black ones) he should not have been able to purchase a gun at his age. I have no issue with a 21 one and older requirement. If the gun is for hunting, competition, or plinking a parent should be buying it and own the responsibility for any misuse. At 21 the gun can transfer ownership. I would support a 21 and over law. Fire away.
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I know it's no going to sit well with some, and I hope that they can participate in a civil adult point counter point, but based on what I read so far, I doubt it. As an NRA member and gun owner (even the deadly black ones) he should not have been able to purchase a gun at his age. I have no issue with a 21 one and older requirement. If the gun is for hunting, competition, or plinking a parent should be buying it and own the responsibility for any misuse. At 21 the gun can transfer ownership. I would support a 21 and over law. Fire away.
Nope, I agree with you. Likewise, voting should go back up to 21, and you should have to purchase your own insurance at 21.
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I know it's no going to sit well with some, and I hope that they can participate in a civil adult point counter point, but based on what I read so far, I doubt it. As an NRA member and gun owner (even the deadly black ones) he should not have been able to purchase a gun at his age. I have no issue with a 21 one and older requirement. If the gun is for hunting, competition, or plinking a parent should be buying it and own the responsibility for any misuse. At 21 the gun can transfer ownership. I would support a 21 and over law. Fire away.
How would you feel about an age req exclusion for those in the Military?
IF, (yeah, i know, If is a fantasy) we hadn't lost the Culture Wars ages ago the issue of Age of ownership would be moot.
So I don't have any easy, satisfying answer to your suggestion @NavyCanDo
To really dig up the root of this murderous rot is gonna require rebuilding family, faith, and getting the grubbermint's hands off the throat of our public indoctrination camps/schools.
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I know it's no going to sit well with some, and I hope that they can participate in a civil adult point counter point, but based on what I read so far, I doubt it. As an NRA member and gun owner (even the deadly black ones) he should not have been able to purchase a gun at his age. I have no issue with a 21 one and older requirement. If the gun is for hunting, competition, or plinking a parent should be buying it and own the responsibility for any misuse. At 21 the gun can transfer ownership. I would support a 21 and over law. Fire away.
I can think of three reasons off the top of my head....Dylan Roof, James Holmes, and Jared Loughner. I doubt they were any more or less crazy in their early 20s than they were at 18 and they were probably just as weird when kids. The age is an arbitrary reason to explain what happened.
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I know it's no going to sit well with some, and I hope that they can participate in a civil adult point counter point, but based on what I read so far, I doubt it. As an NRA member and gun owner (even the deadly black ones) he should not have been able to purchase a gun at his age. I have no issue with a 21 one and older requirement. If the gun is for hunting, competition, or plinking a parent should be buying it and own the responsibility for any misuse. At 21 the gun can transfer ownership. I would support a 21 and over law. Fire away.
Okay, I will.
There is nothing more dangerous than a loaded legislature. Yet you would have an 18 year-old vote, even though you would deny them the RKBA.
The problem isn't the tool, it's the way youth are being raised. They live in a media environment saturated with violence, from music to movies to television. Yet the experts say to 'use their words' (as long as they are on the approved list), don't allow them limited unarmed conflict to resolve their issues and the normal social and individual development that comes with that (nothing teaches a feel for what the other person feels like a bloody nose or fat lip of your own), ply them with psychoactive drugs when they have difficulty, and expect them to come out of that pipeline all normal and well adjusted?
Instead, blame the tool they choose when they lose it, medicated or not, and finally act out on the only other alternative they have been exposed to in ll that media--murder--because a simple dustup isn't in the picture any more. Frankly, with the options presented in media, and with the abject frustration of years of dealing with a bureaucracy that often makes unreasonable demands and less well reasoned, even petty decisions about children's futures, I am surprised there is not more of this crap.
That is what is ridiculous.
What MAOI or SSRI was this kid taking, anyway?
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Sheriff: Suspect went to Subway, McDonald's after school shooting
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/374139-sheriff-suspect-went-to-subway-and-mcdonalds-after-school-shooting (http://thehill.com/homenews/news/374139-sheriff-suspect-went-to-subway-and-mcdonalds-after-school-shooting)
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Okay, I will.
There is nothing more dangerous than a loaded legislature. Yet you would have an 18 year-old vote, even though you would deny them the RKBA.
The problem isn't the tool, it's the way youth are being raised. They live in a media environment saturated with violence, from music to movies to television. Yet the experts say to 'use their words' (as long as they are on the approved list), don't allow them limited unarmed conflict to resolve their issues and the normal social and individual development that comes with that (nothing teaches a feel for what the other person feels like a bloody nose or fat lip of your own), ply them with psychoactive drugs when they have difficulty, and expect them to come out of that pipeline all normal and well adjusted?
Instead, blame the tool they choose when they lose it, medicated or not, and finally act out on the only other alternative they have been exposed to in ll that media--murder--because a simple dustup isn't in the picture any more. Frankly, with the options presented in media, and with the abject frustration of years of dealing with a bureaucracy that often makes unreasonable demands and less well reasoned, even petty decisions about children's futures, I am surprised there is not more of this crap.
That is what is ridiculous.
What MAOI or SSRI was this kid taking, anyway?
I'm in full agreement with every word of this! Well done @Smokin Joe .
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That he is wiser than just about everybody else here?
You can't ignore the demands of the community to do something about the current madness. The task of the responsible conservative is to make sure the coming restrictions are reasonable and efficacious, and consistent with the natural right of self defense protected by the Second Amendment. But forcing one's head firmly in the sand won't stop the wind from blowing. And, as Oceander rightly says, it will just allow the left to rule the field.
Ok, assuming you and the other guy are such authorities on the matter, please relay why we did not get all this outstanding legislation you want right after Sandy Hook when the Dems had control of Senate and Presidency?
Why? Because Americans do not want it, and the Dems knew better.
Yet you wish the conservatives to begin legislation which the majority of Americans will rebel against.
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I know it's no going to sit well with some, and I hope that they can participate in a civil adult point counter point, but based on what I read so far, I doubt it. As an NRA member and gun owner (even the deadly black ones) he should not have been able to purchase a gun at his age. I have no issue with a 21 one and older requirement. If the gun is for hunting, competition, or plinking a parent should be buying it and own the responsibility for any misuse. At 21 the gun can transfer ownership. I would support a 21 and over law. Fire away.
Agree. Different society today. There are subcultures that celebrate nihilism, psyches conditioned by violent video games. The constitution never could have imagined children surfing the internet on their phones.
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Sheriff: Suspect went to Subway, McDonald's after school shooting
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/374139-sheriff-suspect-went-to-subway-and-mcdonalds-after-school-shooting (http://thehill.com/homenews/news/374139-sheriff-suspect-went-to-subway-and-mcdonalds-after-school-shooting)
The COWARD wanted to live another day. Even wore a school sweatshirt to blend in in his escape. To bad he got his wish.
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Florida AG Pam Bondi: State of Florida Will Pay for Funerals of High School Shooting Victims
http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/ (http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/florida-ag-pam-bondi-state-florida-will-pay-funerals-high-school-shooting-victims-video/)
@mystery-ak
I have been gone today and am catching up on this thread. My Bob's granddaughter, she is 18, a high school senior in Ohio, and proficient with guns, including an AR15, but this is not about her; it is about her school. It is a large school, all outside doors are locked; there is only one entrance a person can go through, but each person approaching the door, is only admitted if the gun toting guard unlocks the door. I heard today this killer had his AR15 type gun in a gun case when he went inside the school. He would not have gotten in the granddaughter's school. Every school needs to do this.
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Bullshit. Requiring car owners to register and insure their vehicles isn't "taking their cars away". With rights come responsibilities. Guns are useful, like cars, and exceedingly dangerous just like cars.
The Second Amendment absolutists are losing all credibility. The community wants gun ownership to coincide with responsibility, and there's nothing unreasonable nor unconstitutional about that. The community will get what it demands, one way or the other. Care to be part of the solution, or just another mewling fool demanding his "freedom" to be selfish?
A 'Requirement' to register cars does not mean all cars are registered, does it? Will be the same way with guns registration.
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The problem isn't the tool, it's the way youth are being raised. They live in a media environment saturated with violence, from music to movies to television. Yet the experts say to 'use their words' (as long as they are on the approved list), don't allow them limited unarmed conflict to resolve their issues and the normal social and individual development that comes with that (nothing teaches a feel for what the other person feels like a bloody nose or fat lip of your own), ply them with psychoactive drugs when they have difficulty, and expect them to come out of that pipeline all normal and well adjusted?
Instead, blame the tool they choose when they lose it, medicated or not, and finally act out on the only other alternative they have been exposed to in ll that media--murder--because a simple dustup isn't in the picture any more. Frankly, with the options presented in media, and with the abject frustration of years of dealing with a bureaucracy that often makes unreasonable demands and less well reasoned, even petty decisions about children's futures, I am surprised there is not more of this crap.
That is what is ridiculous.
This again, is a consequence of a society that has rejected and abandoned biblical morality being taught and expected to be followed in society. You know, that stuff that our resident hedonist and Leftist says is bigotry and intolerance. These horrors are the natural harvests and results of seeds sown by a people who have rejected what our foundational principles were and replaced them what Godless Leftists have taught them to value instead. In place of our cultural norms, has been 50 years of promoting a secular no-holds-barred, self-desire morality that teaches the abandonment of responsibility for self and instant gratification with empowering government and societal institutions to take over the responsibility of raising and teaching our posterity sans God.
These fruits are the judgment we have brought upon ourselves as a people.
And as often happens with a people who have forgotten God, instead of repenting and returning to those principles that once sustained and preserved liberty on these shores, we blame inanimate objects, global warming, White privilege, Hate speech and the Second Amendment for calamity.
Instead of using common sense to identify the root cause of our dissolving civil society, we double down on empowering government to eradicate a people's ability to defend themselves so as to put everyone at the mercy of the criminal and the state, both of which are often one and the same.
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Guns aren't responsible for violence. But they sure do facilitate violence. It's your right to protect your home and hearth by owning a gun (or guns). But it is the community's right to demand that legal ownership include licensure, registration and insurance, just as everyone accepts with respect to cars.
I have never seen any gun I own get violent or urge someone to get violent.
You are on the wrong track believing inanimate objects are the cause of problems.
And this 'community' crap is just that, crap.
We do not run our society or government with 'Communities'.
I don't care one iota about Community or Community Organizers.
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Agree. Different society today. There are subcultures that celebrate nihilism, psyches conditioned by violent video games. The constitution never could have imagined children surfing the internet on their phones.
Family must be rebuilt over 'It Takes A Village'.
It's up to Parents to teach Gun Safety.
Take the youngster shooting and let them use a humble, unassuming little .22 rimfire cartridge on a water filled, plastic, gallon milk jug.
AFTER telling them that since a human being is 94% water, and that Explosion is what it will do to a person.
It will snap them right out of the 1st person shooter video game illusion that shooting someone is nothing more than a red splotch and a pained grunt.
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I know it's no going to sit well with some, and I hope that they can participate in a civil adult point counter point, but based on what I read so far, I doubt it. As an NRA member and gun owner (even the deadly black ones) he should not have been able to purchase a gun at his age. I have no issue with a 21 one and older requirement. If the gun is for hunting, competition, or plinking a parent should be buying it and own the responsibility for any misuse. At 21 the gun can transfer ownership. I would support a 21 and over law. Fire away.
I cannot confirm if this is true or not, but I heard on the radio during an interview with Gov Rick Scott, that in Florida, he would have had to been 21 to purchase a pistol but at 18, could legally purchase an AR15. If that is true, that's rather stupid.
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@mystery-ak
I have been gone today and am catching up on this thread. My Bob's granddaughter, she is 18, a high school senior in Ohio, and proficient with guns, including an AR15, but this is not about her; it is about her school. It is a large school, all outside doors are locked; there is only one entrance a person can go through, but each person approaching the door, is only admitted if the gun toting guard unlocks the door. I heard today this killer had his AR15 type gun in a gun case when he went inside the school. He would not have gotten in the granddaughter's school. Every school needs to do this.
I'm not sure they had this plan there..but Cruz pulled the fire alarm..now was this alarm outside or inside?
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I'm not sure they had this plan there..but Cruz pulled the fire alarm..now was this alarm outside or inside?
From what I gathered from news reports today - he was IN the school, wearing gas mask and pulled the fire alarm to get everyone into the hallways and opened fire on them all.
Shot two people outside, maybe when he was leaving the building.
Went to Subway and then McDonalds.
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Finn Aagard was an African Professional Hunter. Made his living taking visiting hunters out on Safari until those idiot Peoples Revolutions closed down the Industry so Jomo Kenyata could send the army out with AK-47s to export all the Ivory they could get to fund his Palace.
Finn moved from Kenya to Texas. Had 2 sons, and a bunch of rifles, on up to a .458 Winchester.
His gun safety education for his boys, from the beginning was "You're welcome to shoot Any of my guns so long as you Ask and We do it under my supervision."
Said he never had an ounce of trouble, irresponsibility or worry about it developing behind his back from either of them, because he Demystified the guns for them. Made sure they knew exactly what was what.
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Nope, I agree with you. Likewise, voting should go back up to 21, and you should have to purchase your own insurance at 21.
The "legal" age should be raised to 21 for everything, including voting and enlisting in the military or it should be lowered to 18 for everything, including the drinking age.
It is ridiculous IMO that an 18 year old can enlist in the military and vote but cannot legally buy a beer or a shot of whiskey. At 18 you can get often a credit card and buy a car on credit in some cases as long as you have a job or a source of income, but you can't get a rental car.
Of course a female younger than 18, much younger than 18 in fact can get an abortion or get birth control without her parents' permission or even any notification.
And evidently he could legally purchase an AR15 at age 18 as it is considered a long gun, but wouldn't have been legally able to purchase a pistol. That makes no sense to me or am I missing something?
FWIW, when I was 19 (circa 1980) I had a full time job and my own health and dental insurance through that job but was still living with my parents. I had to have a wisdom tooth pulled and it was under local anesthetic, I wasn't put asleep for it, but my dad drove me to the appointment, just in case I wasn't feeling well enough afterward to drive home myself. But they made my dad sign a form stating that he was giving his permission for me to have the tooth pulled because I was under 21. I wasn't happy about that and even remember saying, "if I was getting an abortion, I wouldn't need anyone's permission".
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Its this kind of overwrought rhetoric thats makes me wonder how serious you are.
Who said anything about an armed camp? We're talking about one or two trained agents carrying a concealed weapon.
I think there was an armed security officer at the school. I'm not sure how many would be necessary to be effective. What do you think, for 3000 kids?
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I know it's no going to sit well with some, and I hope that they can participate in a civil adult point counter point, but based on what I read so far, I doubt it. As an NRA member and gun owner (even the deadly black ones) he should not have been able to purchase a gun at his age. I have no issue with a 21 one and older requirement. If the gun is for hunting, competition, or plinking a parent should be buying it and own the responsibility for any misuse. At 21 the gun can transfer ownership. I would support a 21 and over law. Fire away.
I agree with you.
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I can think of three reasons off the top of my head....Dylan Roof, James Holmes, and Jared Loughner. I doubt they were any more or less crazy in their early 20s than they were at 18 and they were probably just as weird when kids. The age is an arbitrary reason to explain what happened.
But I think at least two of them had gone through mental health treatment; this should have made it harder or impossible for them to buy a gun.
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Ok, assuming you and the other guy are such authorities on the matter, please relay why we did not get all this outstanding legislation you want right after Sandy Hook when the Dems had control of Senate and Presidency?
Why? Because Americans do not want it, and the Dems knew better.
Yet you wish the conservatives to begin legislation which the majority of Americans will rebel against.
The mental health-gun directive (? Not sure what it's called) that went into effect in December 2016 and was repealed in Feb 2017 was intended to help with this.
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But I think at least two of them had gone through mental health treatment; this should have made it harder or impossible for them to buy a gun.
And there's the rub.
If 'Should' by Govt. Edict made Anything harder to do Rahm Emanual's murder gallery of a city would have the lowest homicide rates in the Country.
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....What MAOI or SSRI was this kid taking, anyway?
This is one of my questions, too.
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I cannot confirm if this is true or not, but I heard on the radio during an interview with Gov Rick Scott, that in Florida, he would have had to been 21 to purchase a pistol but at 18, could legally purchase an AR15. If that is true, that's rather stupid.
I agree.
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I'm not sure they had this plan there..but Cruz pulled the fire alarm..now was this alarm outside or inside?
That's a good point.
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Finn Aagard was an African Professional Hunter. Made his living taking visiting hunters out on Safari until those idiot Peoples Revolutions closed down the Industry so Jomo Kenyata could send the army out with AK-47s to export all the Ivory they could get to fund his Palace.
Finn moved from Kenya to Texas. Had 2 sons, and a bunch of rifles, on up to a .458 Winchester.
His gun safety education for his boys, from the beginning was "You're welcome to shoot Any of my guns so long as you Ask and We do it under my supervision."
Said he never had an ounce of trouble, irresponsibility or worry about it developing behind his back from either of them, because he Demystified the guns for them. Made sure they knew exactly what was what.
This is a very good story. And I suspect it's the way a lot of us were raised. I think the problem is with these "troubled" kids.
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The "legal" age should be raised to 21 for everything, including voting and enlisting in the military or it should be lowered to 18 for everything, including the drinking age.
It is ridiculous IMO that an 18 year old can enlist in the military and vote but cannot legally buy a beer or a shot of whiskey. At 18 you can get often a credit card and buy a car on credit in some cases as long as you have a job or a source of income, but you can't get a rental car.
Of course a female younger than 18, much younger than 18 in fact can get an abortion or get birth control without her parents' permission or even any notification.
And evidently he could legally purchase an AR15 at age 18 as it is considered a long gun, but wouldn't have been legally able to purchase a pistol. That makes no sense to me or am I missing something?
FWIW, when I was 19 (circa 1980) I had a full time job and my own health and dental insurance through that job but was still living with my parents. I had to have a wisdom tooth pulled and it was under local anesthetic, I wasn't put asleep for it, but my dad drove me to the appointment, just in case I wasn't feeling well enough afterward to drive home myself. But they made my dad sign a form stating that he was giving his permission for me to have the tooth pulled because I was under 21. I wasn't happy about that and even remember saying, "if I was getting an abortion, I wouldn't need anyone's permission".
Yes to everything you said. Great post!
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I think the discussion of gun control as being some kind of preventative to this kind of mass murder is absurd.
Deal with the root cause of the problem, not the symptoms. Morality, responsibility and discipline are no longer taught, expected or administered in this country.
Gun control talk to reduce the natural result of abandoning those key principles by suggesting the availability of weapons is the cause of mass school shootings, is as stupid as asserting that the easy availability of spoons is the cause of obesity in America.
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And there's the rub.
If 'Should' by Govt. Edict made Anything harder to do Rahm Emanual's murder gallery of a city would have the lowest homicide rates in the Country.
I think the guns in Chicago come largely from surrounding states, don't they?
Anyway, there ar definitely problems with banning firearms for the "mentally ill", including who qualifies? But I really think it needs to be looked at.
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I think the discussion of gun control as being some kind of preventative to this kind of mass murder is absurd.
Deal with the root cause of the problem, not the symptoms. Morality, responsibility and discipline are no longer taught, expected or administered in this country.
Gun control talk to reduce the natural result of abandoning those key principles by suggesting the availability of weapons is the cause of mass school shootings, is as stupid as asserting that the easy availability of spoons is the cause of obesity in America.
Problem is, brain chemistry works independently from morality and discipline ;(.
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What MAOI or SSRI was this kid taking, anyway?
The AR is a nice, simple to operate, easy to customize platform. However, my SOCOM-16 hits a little harder and is my preferred type of.....
(https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/SG.6569jjTVK4lnE7KVcUg--~B/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD0yODQ7dz0yMDA-/http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Mao/Mao-09-Peoples-Army.jpg.cf.jpg)
....Mao inhibitor.
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This again, is a consequence of a society that has rejected and abandoned biblical morality being taught and expected to be followed in society. You know, that stuff that our resident hedonist and Leftist says is bigotry and intolerance. These horrors are the natural harvests and results of seeds sown by a people who have rejected what our foundational principles were and replaced them what Godless Leftists have taught them to value instead. In place of our cultural norms, has been 50 years of promoting a secular no-holds-barred, self-desire morality that teaches the abandonment of responsibility for self and instant gratification with empowering government and societal institutions to take over the responsibility of raising and teaching our posterity sans God.
These fruits are the judgment we have brought upon ourselves as a people.
And as often happens with a people who have forgotten God, instead of repenting and returning to those principles that once sustained and preserved liberty on these shores, we blame inanimate objects, global warming, White privilege, Hate speech and the Second Amendment for calamity.
Instead of using common sense to identify the root cause of our dissolving civil society, we double down on empowering government to eradicate a people's ability to defend themselves so as to put everyone at the mercy of the criminal and the state, both of which are often one and the same.
No argument here. I agree.
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The AR is a nice, simple to operate, easy to customize platform. However, my SOCOM-16 hits a little harder and is my preferred type of.....
(https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/SG.6569jjTVK4lnE7KVcUg--~B/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD0yODQ7dz0yMDA-/http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Mao/Mao-09-Peoples-Army.jpg.cf.jpg)
....Mao inhibitor.
.308 vs .223, I guess so...
Love mine, too.
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I agree with you.
An 18 year old can join the Military and be shipped to Iraq and Afghanistan and get his limbs blown off, but can’t buy a gun?
If that law is passed, then they need to raise the age to 21 for joining the Military and voting.
Or lower everything back to 18 as it should be, including alcohol. If a kid is old enough to vote and join the Military, then he is an adult.
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Problem is, brain chemistry works independently from morality and discipline ;(.
Yes, and Brain Chemistry is a Red Herring since it is so poorly understood that there is NO BASELINE of what a 'normal' brain chemistry is.
It cannot be measured.
But the upset to it by poisoning it with Psychiatric Drugs Can Be Measured.
Help yourself, drug by drug, to the FDA reported Adverse Reactions to the most common psych drugs.
http://psychroachesadverseevent.blogspot.com/ (http://psychroachesadverseevent.blogspot.com/)
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Finn Aagard was an African Professional Hunter. Made his living taking visiting hunters out on Safari until those idiot Peoples Revolutions closed down the Industry so Jomo Kenyata could send the army out with AK-47s to export all the Ivory they could get to fund his Palace.
Finn moved from Kenya to Texas. Had 2 sons, and a bunch of rifles, on up to a .458 Winchester.
His gun safety education for his boys, from the beginning was "You're welcome to shoot Any of my guns so long as you Ask and We do it under my supervision."
Said he never had an ounce of trouble, irresponsibility or worry about it developing behind his back from either of them, because he Demystified the guns for them. Made sure they knew exactly what was what.
We were raised much the same. The guns were never locked up, but we were taught from day one to not mess with them. If we wanted t shoot, we asked, and did so only with approval and supervision. BY 9 we were hunting deer and ducks and had our own shotguns. The other thing, as we were a Fire/EMS family, was that the sanctity of human life was stressed, as it was in all media platforms in the day, with the possible exception of some westerns.
Between the two, we all grew up without incident, and we weren't the only kids raised that way--it was the norm.
The problems have been largely brought about by all the social experimenting, media saturation with violence (de-sensitization), and (for lack of any other way to put it, because we prayed at the start of the school day for part of 1-12) getting away from God as a culture overall.
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An 18 year old can join the Military and be shipped to Iraq and Afghanistan and get his limbs blown off, but can’t buy a gun?
If that law is passed, then they need to raise the age to 21 for joining the Military and voting.
Or lower everything back to 18 as it should be, including alcohol. If a kid is old enough to vote and join the Military, then he is an adult.
@anubias I think this sums it up well:
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMGs-b3p9FU#)
It's a Sorry World
by Tim Wilson
You can go to war when you're 18
But you can't buy a beer
You can launch missiles from a submarine
But you can't buy a pistol here
You can breathe chemical weapon fumes
But they don't want you to smoke
So when you're shootin' up a bar in Baghdad, don't order a rum and coke
You can have sex when you're 17
You just can't have the cigarette
You ain't old enough for a slot machine
Or to lay down a football bet
But they'll take you at the clinic if you're 15
And your folks don't have to know
Or you can take penicillin,
Just don't watch people gettin' naked on video
You can be a governor at 21
Or a president at 35
You can be the senator from South Carolina
If you can just stay alive
They'll throw you in with sharks when you're 12 years old
Teach you to scuba dive
But when you're 94 and can't see anymore
they'll still let you drive
Just don't get caught with no beer in your hand if you just turned 18
They don't mind you ownin' acetylene torch
and a gallon of gasoline
You just can't buy smokes at the liquor store or y'all will both go to jail
But they'll sell you a rope
so you can hang yourself while you're listening to Nine Inch Nails
It's a sorry world
It's a sooo-rry world
It's a sorry world when you can raise younguns but you can't smoke a Marlboro
It's a sorry world when you're 17 and you can't call a callgirl.
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Problem is, brain chemistry works independently from morality and discipline ;(.
And firearms in the hands of proficient and law abiding citizens puts a quick end to those acting violently because of bad brain chemistry.
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I cannot confirm if this is true or not, but I heard on the radio during an interview with Gov Rick Scott, that in Florida, he would have had to been 21 to purchase a pistol but at 18, could legally purchase an AR15. If that is true, that's rather stupid.
@Neverdul New York State is even more stupid. You can by a rifle, shotgun, and ammunition at age 18. You can take your concealed carry pistol class at age 18. You are not allowed to purchase a pistol from a dealer until you are 21, but are allowed to buy it from a private seller. When my neighbor turned 18 he got his permit, he gave me the cash and I bought he pistol for him from a dealer then turned around and sold it to him with out even putting it on my permit. All legal.
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An 18 year old can join the Military and be shipped to Iraq and Afghanistan and get his limbs blown off, but can’t buy a gun?
If that law is passed, then they need to raise the age to 21 for joining the Military and voting.
Or lower everything back to 18 as it should be, including alcohol. If a kid is old enough to vote and join the Military, then he is an adult.
Yep!
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Family must be rebuilt over 'It Takes A Village'.
It's up to Parents to teach Gun Safety.
Or expand the Village, like in Israel. Everyone serves, and rifles are an everyday sight.
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Or expand the Village, like in Israel. Everyone serves, and rifles are an everyday sight.
Actually, before the Gun Free School thing, it was not unusual to see the pickups in the High School parking lot here with an impressive array of long guns in the rifle racks. No one ever thought of shooting up the school, and the kids went hunting after school let out. It wasn't until the country, led by the media, got its collective panties in a knot at the sight of a firearm that the "Village" chased guns into hiding.
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Actually, before the Gun Free School thing, it was not unusual to see the pickups in the High School parking lot here with an impressive array of long guns in the rifle racks. No one ever thought of shooting up the school, and the kids went hunting after school let out. It wasn't until the country, led by the media, got its collective panties in a knot at the sight of a firearm that the "Village" chased guns into hiding.
I am proud of my community that posts a sign that says: Attention Please be aware that the staff at ****** ISD may be armed and will use whatever force is necessary to protect our students.
God Bless Texas!
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Actually, before the Gun Free School thing, it was not unusual to see the pickups in the High School parking lot here with an impressive array of long guns in the rifle racks. No one ever thought of shooting up the school, and the kids went hunting after school let out. It wasn't until the country, led by the media, got its collective panties in a knot at the sight of a firearm that the "Village" chased guns into hiding.
That's more like the countryside where I grew up. I think too few people are familiar with guns now; if everyone served and had some weapons training, it would be more practical and demystify guns. I actually am going to take my son to shoot skeet; I'd rather he do that instead of playing Call of Duty.
To be fair, if you live somewhere where guns aren't usually seen, it can be freaky/unexpected/worrisome to see one.
My husband doesn't get any of this; he's from Toronto.
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I am proud of my community that posts a sign that says: Attention Please be aware that the staff at ****** ISD may be armed and will use whatever force is necessary to protect our students.
God Bless Texas!
I think that is great, though very sad it's necessary.
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Actually, before the Gun Free School thing, it was not unusual to see the pickups in the High School parking lot here with an impressive array of long guns in the rifle racks. No one ever thought of shooting up the school, and the kids went hunting after school let out. It wasn't until the country, led by the media, got its collective panties in a knot at the sight of a firearm that the "Village" chased guns into hiding.
Some of those available guns were used to keep Charles Whitman under cover and distracted while authorities made it to the UT clock tower platform.
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Actually, before the Gun Free School thing, it was not unusual to see the pickups in the High School parking lot here with an impressive array of long guns in the rifle racks. No one ever thought of shooting up the school, and the kids went hunting after school let out. It wasn't until the country, led by the media, got its collective panties in a knot at the sight of a firearm that the "Village" chased guns into hiding.
I remember when my high school in a rather affluent suburb of Pittsburgh had a rifle team, and no one gave guns - or high schoolers toting guns in cars - a second thought.
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I think there was an armed security officer at the school.
There was.
Broward Co. sheriff says there was an armed officer on campus at time of shooting
Associated Press
10:09 AM, Feb 15, 2018
1:24 PM, Feb 15, 2018
https://www.wptv.com/news/state/broward-county-sheriffs-office-to-hold-1030-am-news-conference (https://www.wptv.com/news/state/broward-county-sheriffs-office-to-hold-1030-am-news-conference)
PARKLAND, Fla. (AP) — The Broward County sheriff says there was an armed officer on campus at the time of a deadly high school shooting.
Sheriff Scott Israel said Thursday the officer never encountered the suspect during the Wednesday afternoon attack that killed 17 people.
[...]
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I remember when my high school in a rather affluent suburb of Pittsburgh had a rifle team, and no one gave guns - or high schoolers toting guns in cars - a second thought.
I know a Boy Scout troops here -- yes, in Los Angeles -- still teach marksmanship. I wish we could make that kind of team sport shooting a bigger deal.
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There was.
Broward Co. sheriff says there was an armed officer on campus at time of shooting
Associated Press
10:09 AM, Feb 15, 2018
1:24 PM, Feb 15, 2018
https://www.wptv.com/news/state/broward-county-sheriffs-office-to-hold-1030-am-news-conference (https://www.wptv.com/news/state/broward-county-sheriffs-office-to-hold-1030-am-news-conference)
PARKLAND, Fla. (AP) — The Broward County sheriff says there was an armed officer on campus at the time of a deadly high school shooting.
Sheriff Scott Israel said Thursday the officer never encountered the suspect during the Wednesday afternoon attack that killed 17 people.
[...]
So how much armed security is necessary for a 3000- student high school? There was an "accidental" shooting at a middle school here last month; I was surprised there wasn't a metal detector.
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I know a Boy Scout troops here -- yes, in Los Angeles -- still teach marksmanship. I wish we could make that kind of team sport shooting a bigger deal.
Quite agree. And since I haven't said so already, welcome to TBR!
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So how much armed security is necessary for a 3000- student high school? There was an "accidental" shooting at a middle school here last month; I was surprised there wasn't a metal detector.
Shooter probably knew exactly where he was and planed to avoid him. One is not enough and some need to be generally unknown.
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Some of those available guns were used to keep Charles Whitman under cover and distracted while authorities made it to the UT clock tower platform.
@edpc
The day that man was on the top of the Texas University in Austin bldg. shooting people, I was in Austin in a hotel room working on my Master's degree thesis while my husband was attending a convention of band directors. The University had their own TV channel and I watched that unfold minute by minute. I couldn't believe not far from me, people were being killed by this killer, shooting down into the people. I saw people hiding behind trees, anything they could get behind making themselves as small as possible. Every time he shot, you could see a puff of smoke rise where he was. The people who were shot were lying there as no one could get to them without being a target. I will never forget that scene unfolding on the TV screen.
When that was over, the steps up to the tower were closed off so no one could get on top again.
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@Victoria33
But didn't the autopsy on Charles Whitman find a brain tumor that led the police to believe that is what caused him to shoot people from the tower, and his wife prior to the event?
I'm sorry you saw this.
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Actually, before the Gun Free School thing, it was not unusual to see the pickups in the High School parking lot here with an impressive array of long guns in the rifle racks. No one ever thought of shooting up the school, and the kids went hunting after school let out. It wasn't until the country, led by the media, got its collective panties in a knot at the sight of a firearm that the "Village" chased guns into hiding.
In the latter part of the sixties we were practicing with .22 caliber shooting into bullet traps in the tennis courts of my junior high and the Boys and Girls club across the street. This wasn't somewhere in rural America it was Buena Park, CA. Also on campus was the California Cadet Corps and they drilled and went all over campus with their plugged 1903 Springfields. No one freaked out, police weren't called and no one talked about using a gun to kill anyone, except those we were at war with.
Society has gotten to a place where too many people deal with unhappiness, or hurt feelings by deciding to kill someone and when they act out they will do it with whatever they have access to, and it hasn't always been with a gun. But guns are an easy target, especially those big black scary ones. Our population has grown so much and so much more packed together that while I doubt the percentage of mental defectives has really grown we see more because of instant news and that same instant news is very attractive to a defective that wants attention.
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@Victoria33
But didn't the autopsy on Charles Whitman find a brain tumor that led the police to believe that is what caused him to shoot people from the tower, and his wife prior to the event?
Post-mortem autopsy of his brain revealed a glioblastoma multiforme tumor the size of a walnut, erupting from beneath the thalamus, impacting the hypothalamus, extending into the temporal lobe and compressing the amygdaloid nucleus (Charles J. Whitman Catastrophe, Medical Aspects. Report to Governor, 9/8/66).
Yes and your hypothalamus deals with mood, appetite, and sleep. Leading up to the events, Whitman had experienced major headaches, weight gain from overeating, insomnia, and angry outbursts. A contributing factor. Sure. The cause? Probably not.
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@Victoria33
But didn't the autopsy on Charles Whitman find a brain tumor that led the police to believe that is what caused him to shoot people from the tower, and his wife prior to the event?
@Freya
I may remember he shot his wife and I did not hear he had a brain tumor so I don't know if that is true. A brain tumor is no reason to kill people - "Oh, I have a brain tumor so I will kill people." There had to be another reason why he did that. I do know someone needed to kill him right then. I think I remember he shot the first cop that made it to the top of the building and the second cop killed him.
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Larry Elder was talking about this, Israel has had armed teachers and other precautionary measures for decades. Precautionary measures probably include at the least, metal detectors.
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Post-mortem autopsy of his brain revealed a glioblastoma multiforme tumor the size of a walnut, erupting from beneath the thalamus, impacting the hypothalamus, extending into the temporal lobe and compressing the amygdaloid nucleus (Charles J. Whitman Catastrophe, Medical Aspects. Report to Governor, 9/8/66).
Yes and your hypothalamus deals with mood, appetite, and sleep. Leading up to the events, Whitman had experienced major headaches, weight gain from overeating, insomnia, and angry outbursts.
Thanks for the information- this event was practically before my time.....
@edpc
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There was.
Broward Co. sheriff says there was an armed officer on campus at time of shooting
Associated Press
10:09 AM, Feb 15, 2018
1:24 PM, Feb 15, 2018
https://www.wptv.com/news/state/broward-county-sheriffs-office-to-hold-1030-am-news-conference (https://www.wptv.com/news/state/broward-county-sheriffs-office-to-hold-1030-am-news-conference)
PARKLAND, Fla. (AP) — The Broward County sheriff says there was an armed officer on campus at the time of a deadly high school shooting.
Sheriff Scott Israel said Thursday the officer never encountered the suspect during the Wednesday afternoon attack that killed 17 people.
[...]
An armed staff member may help but if it is a pistol against a semi-automatic weapon, sometimes, it might not work very well and I don't expect to see staff carrying semi-automatic weapons.
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@Freya
I may remember he shot his wife and I did not hear he had a brain tumor so I don't know if that is true. A brain tumor is no reason to kill people - "Oh, I have a brain tumor so I will kill people." There had to be another reason why he did that. I do know someone needed to kill him right then. I think I remember he shot the first cop that made it to the top of the building and the second cop killed him.
I just remember seeing a TV movie on this, a few years back on the ID Discovery channel. So sad. I've had a few psych classes yet I can't phanthom why someone would kill another person. Especially planning it. I guess that's why there's a commandment "Thou shall not murder"
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Shooter probably knew exactly where he was and planed to avoid him. One is not enough and some need to be generally unknown.
3,000 students were protected by one pistol--probably across campus. **nononono*
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@anubias I think this sums it up well:
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMGs-b3p9FU#)
It's a Sorry World
by Tim Wilson
You can go to war when you're 18
But you can't buy a beer
You can launch missiles from a submarine
But you can't buy a pistol here
You can breathe chemical weapon fumes
But they don't want you to smoke
So when you're shootin' up a bar in Baghdad, don't order a rum and coke
You can have sex when you're 17
You just can't have the cigarette
You ain't old enough for a slot machine
Or to lay down a football bet
But they'll take you at the clinic if you're 15
And your folks don't have to know
Or you can take penicillin,
Just don't watch people gettin' naked on video
You can be a governor at 21
Or a president at 35
You can be the senator from South Carolina
If you can just stay alive
They'll throw you in with sharks when you're 12 years old
Teach you to scuba dive
But when you're 94 and can't see anymore
they'll still let you drive
Just don't get caught with no beer in your hand if you just turned 18
They don't mind you ownin' acetylene torch
and a gallon of gasoline
You just can't buy smokes at the liquor store or y'all will both go to jail
But they'll sell you a rope
so you can hang yourself while you're listening to Nine Inch Nails
It's a sorry world
It's a sooo-rry world
It's a sorry world when you can raise younguns but you can't smoke a Marlboro
It's a sorry world when you're 17 and you can't call a callgirl.
It does. I’ve never understood the thinking behind it.
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Or expand the Village, like in Israel. Everyone serves, and rifles are an everyday sight.
(https://pics.onsizzle.com/why-there-are-no-school-shootings-inisrael-exactly-23865684.png)
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In the latter part of the sixties we were practicing with .22 caliber shooting into bullet traps in the tennis courts of my junior high and the Boys and Girls club across the street. This wasn't somewhere in rural America it was Buena Park, CA. Also on campus was the California Cadet Corps and they drilled and went all over campus with their plugged 1903 Springfields. No one freaked out, police weren't called and no one talked about using a gun to kill anyone, except those we were at war with.
Society has gotten to a place where too many people deal with unhappiness, or hurt feelings by deciding to kill someone and when they act out they will do it with whatever they have access to, and it hasn't always been with a gun. But guns are an easy target, especially those big black scary ones. Our population has grown so much and so much more packed together that while I doubt the percentage of mental defectives has really grown we see more because of instant news and that same instant news is very attractive to a defective that wants attention.
Really interesting! Are you still in LA/OC?
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In the latter part of the sixties we were practicing with .22 caliber shooting into bullet traps in the tennis courts of my junior high and the Boys and Girls club across the street. This wasn't somewhere in rural America it was Buena Park, CA. Also on campus was the California Cadet Corps and they drilled and went all over campus with their plugged 1903 Springfields. No one freaked out, police weren't called and no one talked about using a gun to kill anyone, except those we were at war with.
Society has gotten to a place where too many people deal with unhappiness, or hurt feelings by deciding to kill someone and when they act out they will do it with whatever they have access to, and it hasn't always been with a gun. But guns are an easy target, especially those big black scary ones. Our population has grown so much and so much more packed together that while I doubt the percentage of mental defectives has really grown we see more because of instant news and that same instant news is very attractive to a defective that wants attention.
The high schools in my city had gun clubs and competitive competition. My 1977 year book has a page devoted to the club and shooting team, with a photo of them on the school steps with their rifles.
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Actually, before the Gun Free School thing, it was not unusual to see the pickups in the High School parking lot here with an impressive array of long guns in the rifle racks. No one ever thought of shooting up the school, and the kids went hunting after school let out. It wasn't until the country, led by the media, got its collective panties in a knot at the sight of a firearm that the "Village" chased guns into hiding.
When I first began teaching (over 20 years ago) it was perfectly normal to see rifles and shot guns in the back window of the students pickup trucks. Students would bring the firearm into school we would strip and refinish stocks, blue barrels, make new firing pins and do basic gun repair. During hunting seasons my students would head out to the field or deer blind after school. For quite a few of them that was how they put meat on the table. These families were dirt poor, but the kids came to school. Their clothes were clean and they had a respectful attitude. I contrast that with the year I taught at an inner city school the year before. The exact opposite.
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Yes, and Brain Chemistry is a Red Herring since it is so poorly understood that there is NO BASELINE of what a 'normal' brain chemistry is.
It cannot be measured.
But the upset to it by poisoning it with Psychiatric Drugs Can Be Measured.
Help yourself, drug by drug, to the FDA reported Adverse Reactions to the most common psych drugs.
http://psychroachesadverseevent.blogspot.com/ (http://psychroachesadverseevent.blogspot.com/)
Finally, someone brought this up! Mind altering meds have a role in helping some people within a narrow group of psychiatric conditions. But, there are known, serious and bizarre side effects and adverse reactions with these drugs. Everything from suicidal ideation, hallucinations, heightened paranoia, violent behavior – the list is long and frightening.
If Cruz was on these meds, look for a diminished mental capacity defense from his attorney.
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The high schools in my city had gun clubs and competitive competition. My 1977 year book has a page devoted to the club and shooting team, with a photo of them on the school steps with their rifles.
Brooklyn, New York, early 60’s. My uncle, auxiliary policeman, got me involved in gun safety classes and shooting club. Then the communists and liberals came along and ruined every good and wholesome American tradition.
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I know it's no going to sit well with some, and I hope that they can participate in a civil adult point counter point, but based on what I read so far, I doubt it. As an NRA member and gun owner (even the deadly black ones) he should not have been able to purchase a gun at his age. I have no issue with a 21 one and older requirement. If the gun is for hunting, competition, or plinking a parent should be buying it and own the responsibility for any misuse. At 21 the gun can transfer ownership. I would support a 21 and over law. Fire away.
Not everyone lives at home until 21. Why do you believe an 18 year old living alone has no right to defend themselves?
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Police were called to the Cruz home at least 39 times since 2010
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,304389.0.html (http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,304389.0.html)
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Larry Elder was talking about this, Israel has had armed teachers and other precautionary measures for decades. Precautionary measures probably include at the least, metal detectors.
The last thing we need is to put deadly firearms in the hands of teachers who are put under intense psychological stress daily. One unruly class could be all it takes for that teacher to start threatening kids at gunpoint.
I do not want the teachers' unions being turned into a militia.
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@Neverdul New York State is even more stupid. You can by a rifle, shotgun, and ammunition at age 18. You can take your concealed carry pistol class at age 18. You are not allowed to purchase a pistol from a dealer until you are 21, but are allowed to buy it from a private seller. When my neighbor turned 18 he got his permit, he gave me the cash and I bought he pistol for him from a dealer then turned around and sold it to him with out even putting it on my permit. All legal.
Have you seen his NY permit? Is he an Honorably Discharged Vet?
The info I have found says must be 21.
http://www.ny.gov/services/apply-firearms-license (http://www.ny.gov/services/apply-firearms-license)
To be eligible to have a firearms license you:
Must be a New York State resident
Must be 21 years old
-A person under 21 who has been honorably discharged from military service is eligible to apply for a firearms license.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf)
https://gun.laws.com/state-gun-laws/new-york-gun-laws (https://gun.laws.com/state-gun-laws/new-york-gun-laws)
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The last thing we need is to put deadly firearms in the hands of teachers who are put under intense psychological stress daily. One unruly class could be all it takes for that teacher to start threatening kids at gunpoint.
I do not want the teachers' unions being turned into a militia.
Yep. The very first time some teacher goes berserk in the classroom because some kid dissed him or her or becomes a bit unruly and the teacher pulls a gun on them and or shoots them, that will put a stop to armed teachers.
FWIW, when I was in the 9th grade our homeroom and our science teacher, a late middle age black woman who was a miserable and very nasty woman and a lousy teacher to boot and who couldn’t control her classroom. And my 9th grade home room class was made up of “honor students†yes, “nerdsâ€.
But as we sometimes acted up and liked to have fun, we never threated her or anyone else and typically calmed down once the homeroom bell was rung, we were just a bit rebellious and questioning at times.
But one day when a kid questioned her on something she told use during our science class, and not IIRC unreasonably, not an unreasonable question and not intended to be disrespectful, IIRC she told our class that “salt water can’t freeze†and one kid in the class raised his hand and challenged that this wasn’t correct, and then she completely lost it and drug him out of his chair and kicked him and grabbed him by the throat and tried to strangle him.
A couple of kids ran to another classroom for help and another teacher who subdued her.
She never came back. We were told she decided to take an “early retirementâ€
Not someone I’d want to see be armed in the classroom.
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@Neverdul @jmyrlefuller
Im strongly of the belief that if you don't trust someone with a firearm perhaps those people shouldn't be on the street.
They certainly shouldn't be teaching our students.
There are a myriad of weapons available if someone loses it.
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Not someone I’d want to see be armed in the classroom.
But admittedly, someone you can't stop from being armed in the classroom. Just like they couldn't stop Cruz from being armed in the classroom.
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When I first began teaching (over 20 years ago) it was perfectly normal to see rifles and shot guns in the back window of the students pickup trucks. Students would bring the firearm into school we would strip and refinish stocks, blue barrels, make new firing pins and do basic gun repair. During hunting seasons my students would head out to the field or deer blind after school. For quite a few of them that was how they put meat on the table. These families were dirt poor, but the kids came to school. Their clothes were clean and they had a respectful attitude. I contrast that with the year I taught at an inner city school the year before. The exact opposite.
I taught at a rural school in the not-too-distant past. Times have changed. All the ills that plague inner city schools have made it to the country. Not to the same extent, thankfully, but they're there.
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Found this on Twitter:
linkola mindset 🌲 🌳 🌿 🌴â€
@ecccoautist
Follow Follow @ecccoautist
More
i honestly lol every time i think about how libs believe a gun-free america would be safe like finland or japan or some shit, and not a crime-ridden anarcho-tyranny dystopia just like the places our demographics are coming to resemble (brazil, central america, africa, etc)
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Finally, someone brought this up! Mind altering meds have a role in helping some people within a narrow group of psychiatric conditions. But, there are known, serious and bizarre side effects and adverse reactions with these drugs. Everything from suicidal ideation, hallucinations, heightened paranoia, violent behavior – the list is long and frightening.
If Cruz was on these meds, look for a diminished mental capacity defense from his attorney.
I don't know what to think of the argument that anti-depression and anti-psychotic drugs cause mental health issues. They are on these drugs because they have mental health issues, and so far I haven't seen a good study that shows that the drugs cause or increase the issues.
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Someone who lies and someone who tells the truth are playing on opposite sides, so to speak, in the same game. Each responds to the facts as he understands them, although the response of the one is guided by the authority of the truth, while the response of the other defies that authority and refuses to meet its demands.
The bullshitter ignores these demands altogether. He does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all. By virtue of this, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are.
https://brenebrown.com/blog/2017/11/08/gun-reform-speaking-truth-bullshit-practicing-civility-affecting-change/
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I don't know what to think of the argument that anti-depression and anti-psychotic drugs cause mental health issues. They are on these drugs because they have mental health issues, and so far I haven't seen a good study that shows that the drugs cause or increase the issues.
It’s all detailed in the 20-page insert the drug companies put in the medicine packaging. Scarier than a Steven King novel it is.
And with increased numbers of people on these drugs (often mis-prescribed) and the incidents of mass shooting on the rise in recent times, and with the large percentage of shooters found later to be on psychotropic drugs, that could all be coincidence, right?
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It’s all detailed in the 20-page insert the drug companies put in the medicine packaging. Scarier than a Steven King novel it is.
And with increased numbers of people on these drugs (often mis-prescribed) and the incidents of mass shooting on the rise in recent times and with the large percentage of shooters found later to be on psychotropic drugs, that could all be coincidence, right?
Yes, but the insert reports on any and all conditions that happened while taking the drug and doesn't mean that the drug caused the condition. That's why it starts with "may cause".
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I don't know what to think of the argument that anti-depression and anti-psychotic drugs cause mental health issues. They are on these drugs because they have mental health issues, and so far I haven't seen a good study that shows that the drugs cause or increase the issues.
@Sanguine
Side effects of these drugs
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/mental-health-medications/index.shtml (https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/mental-health-medications/index.shtml)
Thoughts about suicide or dying
Attempts to commit suicide
New or worsening depression
New or worsening anxiety
Feeling very agitated or restless
Panic attacks
Trouble sleeping (insomnia)
New or worsening irritability
Acting aggressively, being angry, or violent
Acting on dangerous impulses
An extreme increase in activity and talking (mania)
Other unusual changes in behavior or mood
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From what I understand, Cruz bought his AR15, something should have been able to prevent that.
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@Sanguine
Side effects of these drugs
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/mental-health-medications/index.shtml (https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/mental-health-medications/index.shtml)
Thoughts about suicide or dying
Attempts to commit suicide
New or worsening depression
New or worsening anxiety
Feeling very agitated or restless
Panic attacks
Trouble sleeping (insomnia)
New or worsening irritability
Acting aggressively, being angry, or violent
Acting on dangerous impulses
An extreme increase in activity and talking (mania)
Other unusual changes in behavior or mood
Oh, I know. They do affect mood, hence they may cause changes in mood - which is of course what they are designed to do.
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I don't know what to think of the argument that anti-depression and anti-psychotic drugs cause mental health issues. They are on these drugs because they have mental health issues, and so far I haven't seen a good study that shows that the drugs cause or increase the issues.
Agreed, Sanguine. And of course some of these drugs have possible side effects that can cause behavioral issues, as well. I think we're at a situation where people on certain classes (?) of medications shouldn't have firearms. But that might affect people with PTSD, which causes another problem.
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Agreed, Sanguine. And of course some of these drugs have possible side effects that can cause behavioral issues, as well. I think we're at a situation where people on certain classes (?) of medications shouldn't have firearms. But that might affect people with PTSD, which causes another problem.
It's not the meds that I worry about, it's the underlying mental problems that they are being treated for. But, I do recognize that the meds can give them enough energy or clarity to act upon their mental issues.
I think PTSD is vastly overhyped, and PTSD alone doesn't cause anti-social behavior.
By the way, welcome, Laura! Glad to have you here.
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Agreed, Sanguine. And of course some of these drugs have possible side effects that can cause behavioral issues, as well. I think we're at a situation where people on certain classes (?) of medications shouldn't have firearms. But that might affect people with PTSD, which causes another problem.
The problem I have with putting people on "No Buy" lists for firearms is they don't get notified, don't get informed of the criteria if they do, and there's no recourse if they're listed by mistake. That's basically the way the present NICS system works. There's an appeal process that you can find at their website, but it's convoluted and requires hiring an attorney to figure it out.
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It's not the meds that I worry about, it's the underlying mental problems that they are being treated for. But, I do recognize that the meds can give them enough energy or clarity to act upon their mental issues.
I think PTSD is vastly overhyped, and PTSD alone doesn't cause anti-social behavior.
By the way, welcome, Laura! Glad to have you here.
Thanks, Sanguine! And with regard to the PTSD, I think about our recent vets and all the issues around denying them weapons.
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I don't know what to think of the argument that anti-depression and anti-psychotic drugs cause mental health issues. They are on these drugs because they have mental health issues, and so far I haven't seen a good study that shows that the drugs cause or increase the issues.
@Sanguine
Quite a bit to digest here, no short answer, but yes it's the drugs causing the violence: tripping the patient's circuit breakers:
http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/06/akathisia-suicide-homicide-from.html (http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/06/akathisia-suicide-homicide-from.html)
http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/01/neurolepticsantipsychotis-causing.html (http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/01/neurolepticsantipsychotis-causing.html)
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@Sanguine
Quite a bit to digest here, no short answer, but yes it's the drugs causing the violence: tripping the patient's circuit breakers:
http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/06/akathisia-suicide-homicide-from.html (http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/06/akathisia-suicide-homicide-from.html)
http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/01/neurolepticsantipsychotis-causing.html (http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/01/neurolepticsantipsychotis-causing.html)
That's not the conclusion I draw. They are already mentally ill.
How many times have you also read or heard that "he was fine as long as he took his meds, but he felt better and quit taking them"?
Added: I think it's easy to blame the meds, the inanimate object here, much like guns. I think it can lead us to miss the point.
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This story indicates he made statements that the demon voices told him to do it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398625/Demon-voices-school-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398625/Demon-voices-school-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html)
A very strong indication the drugs are a factor.
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This story indicates he made statements that the demon voices told him to do it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398625/Demon-voices-school-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398625/Demon-voices-school-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html)
A very strong indication the drugs are a factor.
Really? Not schizophrenia?
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Really? Not schizophrenia?
@Sanguine
Some of the side effects of the drugs are hallucinations and hearing voices.
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@Sanguine
Some of the side effects of the drugs are hallucinations and hearing voices.
Which is also a symptom of schizophrenia. Which usually manifests at early adulthood...
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Which is also a symptom of schizophrenia. Which usually manifests at early adulthood...
We know he's on the drugs.
We don't know he has schizophrenia.
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We know he's on the drugs.
We don't know he has schizophrenia.
And, we can draw what conclusion from our lack of knowledge?
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The subject of the questionable benefits of and over-medication with psychotropic drugs is the 800-pound gorilla in the room that no one in political medicine wants to take seriously. Instead we are lead into countless arguments over guns, gun laws and the constitution.
And oddly, too, politicians can’t seem to find their voices on this issue. I suspect that is because drug companies are some of the largest and most generous donors to House and Senate reelection campaigns.
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This story indicates he made statements that the demon voices told him to do it.
A very strong indication the drugs are a factor.
Or maybe a very strong indication that demons were indeed a factor.
But since we do not believe in God anymore in this country and consider belief to be a mental illness, it's no surprise the concept of demons influencing people to act on the basest evils of human nature is discarded out of hand and attributed to drugs.
I think it was some movie that suggested that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he does not exist.
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@Sanguine
It's not realistic to expect most people to sit through Dr Lucire's detailed and extremely well researched dissertation, but I'm going to Try here to boil it down to a very basic principle (by no means all inclusive, or 100% applicable to every patient).
A basic, very common, Adverse Reaction all SSRIs and Neuroleptics carry is a condition called Akathisia.
It's routinely ignored by prescribers or downplayed if it's even mentioned.
What warnings accompany it in the Label caution prescribers to be particularly watchful for it in the first few days/weeks of the patient's Initial exposure to the drug.
It's a psychological unease so upsetting that patients have described it as making them want to jump out of their skin, or claw it off to get away from it.
Since it's swept under the rug, the patient, being left in dark about it, mistakenly tries to quash it with an overdose of the offending drug which of course blows it into a truly unbearable internal hell.
And Wham, you have the explanation for the overwhelming preponderance of Suicides in new patients/teens, rather than Homicides from them.
https://ssristories.org/
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The subject of the questionable benefits of and over-medication with psychotropic drugs is the 800-pound gorilla in the room that no one in political medicine wants to take seriously. Instead we are lead into countless arguments over guns, gun laws and the constitution.
And oddly, too, politicians can’t seem to find their voices on this issue. I suspect that is because drug companies are some of the largest and most generous donors to House and Senate reelection campaigns.
https://www.opensecrets.org/ (https://www.opensecrets.org/)
I haven't nosed around here in a while but it is a great place to find numbers.
They seem to have expanded their data base and changed their indexing around since I was there last, so anyone interested will have to use the search box for specifics.
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The subject of the questionable benefits of and over-medication with psychotropic drugs is the 800-pound gorilla in the room that no one in political medicine wants to take seriously. Instead we are lead into countless arguments over guns, gun laws and the constitution.
And oddly, too, politicians can’t seem to find their voices on this issue. I suspect that is because drug companies are some of the largest and most generous donors to House and Senate reelection campaigns.
Politicians (and damned near everybody else who haven't got a clue what they're talking about) seem to have found all kinds of voices when the drug under discussion is an Opioid.
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Or maybe a very strong indication that demons were indeed a factor.
But since we do not believe in God anymore in this country and consider belief to be a mental illness, it's no surprise the concept of demons influencing people to act on the basest evils of human nature is discarded out of hand and attributed to drugs.
I think it was some movie that suggested that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he does not exist.
Watch Dr Lucire's video and read the accompanying report by Clark and Co. before you toss it All into the lap of Evil.
People who consider themselves Pacifists out of a misplaced sense of moral superiority are Offended all to Hell by what our Military Special Forces do, on their behalf.
"Killing is Never Right! Killing is Never the Answer!"
How many times have we all been subjected to that stinking pantload from the surrender and curl up into a fetal position ball and the bad guys won't hurt us or our children crowd?
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Really? Not schizophrenia?
Schizophrenia itself is admitted to be a 'Garbage Can Diagnosis'.
And, people pasted with it are 5 times Less Likely to perp an act of physical violence on you, me, or anyone else than supposed 'Normal' people are.
Personally, I think you need to actually read the material I posted for you, and settle in to give Dr Yolanda Lucire a good hearing, because a lay person's opinions don't carry equal scientific weight with the real life observation gained over decades with follow up analysis of reports from the field they work in.
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This story indicates he made statements that the demon voices told him to do it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398625/Demon-voices-school-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398625/Demon-voices-school-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html)
A very strong indication the drugs are a factor.
Schizophrenics hear voices. It may be a strong indication that the lack of drugs was a factor.
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Schizophrenics hear voices. It may be a strong indication that the lack of drugs was a factor.
All we know is he was troubled and had a history of very erratic and creepy behavior. Some threats were reported but nothing appeared to have been done.
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All we know is he was troubled and had a history of very erratic and creepy behavior. Some threats were reported but nothing appeared to have been done.
Let's go back to the Virginia Tech shooter.
He was well known to be stand-offish, weird, and antisocial.
However, he didn't snap and go off on a killing spree until after the school Counselors backed him into a mental health Exam, Diagnosis, and Drugging.
Sometimes the obvious is so obvious it eludes us.
Reminds me of Sherlock Holmes maxim.
"Once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains must be the truth."
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Let's go back to the Virginia Tech shooter.
He was well known to be stand-offish, weird, and antisocial.
However, he didn't snap and go off on a killing spree until after the school Counselors backed him into a mental health Exam, Diagnosis, and Drugging.
Sometimes the obvious is so obvious it eludes us.
Reminds me of Sherlock Holmes maxim.
"Once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains must be the truth."
@To-Whose-Benefit?
Not sure I understand but I think you're pointing to the drugs.
I think the drugs are a big factor. That and a broken society where troubled people don't get help but are allowed to exist on the fringes where they are a threat to other peoples safety.
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@Sanguine
It's not realistic to expect most people to sit through Dr Lucire's detailed and extremely well researched dissertation, but I'm going to Try here to boil it down to a very basic principle (by no means all inclusive, or 100% applicable to every patient).
A basic, very common, Adverse Reaction all SSRIs and Neuroleptics carry is a condition called Akathisia.
It's routinely ignored by prescribers or downplayed if it's even mentioned.
What warnings accompany it in the Label caution prescribers to be particularly watchful for it in the first few days/weeks of the patient's Initial exposure to the drug.
It's a psychological unease so upsetting that patients have described it as making them want to jump out of their skin, or claw it off to get away from it.
Since it's swept under the rug, the patient, being left in dark about it, mistakenly tries to quash it with an overdose of the offending drug which of course blows it into a truly unbearable internal hell.
And Wham, you have the explanation for the overwhelming preponderance of Suicides in new patients/teens, rather than Homicides from them.
https://ssristories.org/
Basically, it's drug induced restless leg syndrome. It simply doesn't cause shootings. Just doesn't.
I understand that you are very skeptical and dismissive of modern medicine. And, that's OK, but it means you and I probably will never agree on this subject. It happens.
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In a related matter, millions of American school children have been made virtual zombies by Ritalin!
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In a related matter, millions of American school children have been made virtual zombies by Ritalin!
Exactly. Rather than dealing with difficult behavior problems it’s much easier to reach for the prescription pad and voilà , problem solved.
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Exactly. Rather than dealing with difficult behavior problems it’s much easier to reach for the prescription pad and voilà , problem solved.
Yep! Easier than actually doing your job!
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Exactly. Rather than dealing with difficult behavior problems it’s much easier to reach for the prescription pad and voilà , problem solved.
In most cases the difficult behavior is normal. At least until the drugging starts and the brain chemistry changes.
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In most cases the difficult behavior is normal. At least until the drugging starts and the brain chemistry changes.
I thank God every day that they never came up with Ritlyn until I was grown!
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Thanks, Sanguine! And with regard to the PTSD, I think about our recent vets and all the issues around denying them weapons.
1. Psychiatry & psychology were using electricity on brains, not very long ago.
2. People with some experience with the "professionals,", often conclude those people are more sick, than the patients.
3. These people have a big vested interest, in expanding "mental illness," in our society, for their monetary benefit. "Let's go ahead and schedule your appointments, for the next 3 months now."
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@To-Whose-Benefit?
Not sure I understand but I think you're pointing to the drugs.
I think the drugs are a big factor. That and a broken society where troubled people don't get help but are allowed to exist on the fringes where they are a threat to other peoples safety.
Big part of it. But my main point is the VT shooter and all those people he killed would Probably still be alive today if not for the system backing him into the Mental Health corner.
Would he still be Anti social and a Potential (un actualized) threat to others?
That IS one possibility, the other being, that given time to figure it out for himself Without being dehumanized with the label and poisoned with the drugs he could have turned his outward misconceptions about society around On His Own.
The diagnosis and drugs tripped his internal 'Thou Shalt Not Do Murder' circuit breakers by chemically upsetting his perceptual and emotional mechanisms. They shorted out his internal prohibitions against acting out.
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Big part of it. But my main point is the VT shooter and all those people he killed would Probably still be alive today if not for the system backing him into the Mental Health corner.
Would he still be Anti social and a Potential (un actualized) threat to others?
That IS one possibility, the other being, that given time to figure it out for himself Without being dehumanized with the label and poisoned with the drugs he could have turned his outward misconceptions about society around On His Own.
The diagnosis and drugs tripped his internal 'Thou Shalt Not Do Murder' circuit breakers by chemically upsetting his perceptual and emotional mechanisms. They shorted out his internal prohibitions against acting out.
The entire mental health system is broken IMO. They dispense powerful drugs like candy.
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Fox News reporting 'the FBI did NOT FOLLOW PROTOCAL, Miami office NOT NOTIFIED'
Blood of 17 on Comey's FBI; too busy framing Trump to protect Americans from known serious threat of harm.
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Fox News reporting 'the FBI did NOT FOLLOW PROTOCAL, Miami office NOT NOTIFIED'
Blood of 17 on Comey's FBI; too busy framing Trump to protect Americans from known serious threat of harm.
:thumbsup:
The FBI certainly has gotten some black eyes lately – all of them self inflicted.
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:thumbsup:
The FBI certainly has gotten some black eyes lately – all of them self inflicted.
Porter said that was an accident.
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Police report (https://media.local10.com/document_dev/2018/02/15/Nikolas%20Cruz%20PC_1518731458159_11666926_ver1.0.pdf) on the Cruz shooting.
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@Sanguine
Quite a bit to digest here, no short answer, but yes it's the drugs causing the violence: tripping the patient's circuit breakers:
http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/06/akathisia-suicide-homicide-from.html (http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/06/akathisia-suicide-homicide-from.html)
http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/01/neurolepticsantipsychotis-causing.html (http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/01/neurolepticsantipsychotis-causing.html)
I think the thing that is being missed here is that these drugs are not just being used for psychological medications: https://www.mayoclinic.org/pain-medications/ART-20045647?pg=2 (https://www.mayoclinic.org/pain-medications/ART-20045647?pg=2)
They are being used for chronic pain as well, and in some places being used as pain killers.
The symptoms generated by someone not taking them after having been on them (unsupervised, the patient feels better so they quit) can be as bad as the 'side effects' from taking them.
The bottom line is that they are involved in virtually every mass shooting not a direct product of Islam.
Please note that these drugs do not have these effects on everyone, but a relatively small group can create a lot of mayhem.
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Before we place the blame squarely on mental heath professionals and meds:
Cruz was getting treatment at a mental health clinic for a while but hadn't been there for more than a year, Broward County Mayor Beam Furr told CNN.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398727/Family-took-Nikolas-Cruz-horrified.html?mrn_rm=als1 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398727/Family-took-Nikolas-Cruz-horrified.html?mrn_rm=als1)
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Before we place the blame squarely on mental heath professionals and meds:
Acouple fo quick (admittedly rhetorical) questions: Was Cruz taking the types of meds which commonly have undesirable effects when they are simply stopped? Had his prescriptions been consistently filled, or intermittently, or not at all?
Did these health professionals discharge him as 'cured' (no longer requiring treatment) or had he simply quit on his own (often a sign of problems in itself)? If the latter, why no follow-up, or what attempt at follow-up was done?
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Before we place the blame squarely on mental heath professionals and meds:
Thanks @Sanguine for being the voice of reason here.
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Acouple fo quick (admittedly rhetorical) questions: Was Cruz taking the types of meds which commonly have undesirable effects when they are simply stopped? Had his prescriptions been consistently filled, or intermittently, or not at all?
Did these health professionals discharge him as 'cured' (no longer requiring treatment) or had he simply quit on his own (often a sign of problems in itself)? If the latter, why no follow-up, or what attempt at follow-up was done?
All good questions. I hope we learn the answers.
And, thanks, @anubias. Though some would call me contrary. :laugh:
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The Church shooter was dishonorably discharged from the Air Force over domestic violence? I'm just remembering this, so now, we really have two cases we can look at where the culprit of the crime, may well have had no right to possess these weapons.
I guess, Paddock did have such rights, unfortunately.
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The Church shooter was dishonorably discharged from the Air Force over domestic violence? I'm just remembering this, so now, we really have two cases we can look at where the culprit of the crime, may well have had no right to possess these weapons.
I guess, Paddock did have such rights, unfortunately.
@TomSea
I believe Paddock was also under treatment inclyuding these drugs.
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Acouple fo quick (admittedly rhetorical) questions: Was Cruz taking the types of meds which commonly have undesirable effects when they are simply stopped? Had his prescriptions been consistently filled, or intermittently, or not at all?
Did these health professionals discharge him as 'cured' (no longer requiring treatment) or had he simply quit on his own (often a sign of problems in itself)? If the latter, why no follow-up, or what attempt at follow-up was done?
Not much on this 'MH Clinic' in this report.
But them discharging him as 'Cured' would put them in a world of Legal Jeopardy.
NO ONE ever gets Cured.
And No One gets 'Treated' without being lifelong Diagnosed 1st.
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@TomSea
I believe Paddock was also under treatment inclyuding these drugs.
@driftdiver
Paddock refused antidepressants, was prescribed benzos for anxiety. Didn't take many and while traces were found in his urine, there was none in his bloodstream.
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@driftdiver
Paddock refused antidepressants, was prescribed benzos for anxiety. Didn't take many and while traces were found in his urine, there was none in his bloodstream.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome
"Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome—often abbreviated to benzo withdrawal—is the cluster of symptoms that emerge when a person who has taken benzodiazepines, either medically or recreationally, and has developed a physical dependence undergoes dosage reduction or discontinuation. Development of physical dependence and/or addiction and the resulting withdrawal symptoms, some of which may last for years, may result from either drug-seeking behaviors or from taking the medication as prescribed. Benzodiazepine withdrawal is characterized by sleep disturbance, irritability, increased tension and anxiety, panic attacks, hand tremor, shaking, sweating, difficulty with concentration, confusion and cognitive difficulty, memory problems, dry retching and nausea, weight loss, palpitations, headache, muscular pain and stiffness, a host of perceptual changes, hallucinations, seizures, psychosis,[1] and suicide[2][3] (see "Signs and Symptoms" section below for full list). Further, these symptoms are notable for the manner in which they wax and wane and vary in severity from day to day or week by week instead of steadily decreasing in a straightforward monotonic manner.[4]"
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome
"Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome—often abbreviated to benzo withdrawal—is the cluster of symptoms that emerge when a person who has taken benzodiazepines, either medically or recreationally, and has developed a physical dependence undergoes dosage reduction or discontinuation. Development of physical dependence and/or addiction and the resulting withdrawal symptoms, some of which may last for years, may result from either drug-seeking behaviors or from taking the medication as prescribed. Benzodiazepine withdrawal is characterized by sleep disturbance, irritability, increased tension and anxiety, panic attacks, hand tremor, shaking, sweating, difficulty with concentration, confusion and cognitive difficulty, memory problems, dry retching and nausea, weight loss, palpitations, headache, muscular pain and stiffness, a host of perceptual changes, hallucinations, seizures, psychosis,[1] and suicide[2][3] (see "Signs and Symptoms" section below for full list). Further, these symptoms are notable for the manner in which they wax and wane and vary in severity from day to day or week by week instead of steadily decreasing in a straightforward monotonic manner.[4]"
Everything I've read about when and how many benzos were prescribed to Paddock make it very unlikely he was affected with withdrawal syndrome. He was eating well, very organized, and planned his slaughter carefully.
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Everything I've read about when and how many benzos were prescribed to Paddock make it very unlikely he was affected with withdrawal syndrome. He was eating well, very organized, and planned his slaughter carefully.
A complete withdrawal from Benzos can take years, coming and going in bouts.
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This is such a long thread I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't read the whole thing as I usually do before I post.
There is no good answer to solve this problem.
Gun control? there will always be guns. Or cars or bombs or machetes.
Armed staff? They can't be every where.
The answer lies within the individual who chooses to commit the crime.
How do you stop crazy?
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Have you seen his NY permit? Is he an Honorably Discharged Vet?
The info I have found says must be 21.
http://www.ny.gov/services/apply-firearms-license (http://www.ny.gov/services/apply-firearms-license)
To be eligible to have a firearms license you:
Must be a New York State resident
Must be 21 years old
-A person under 21 who has been honorably discharged from military service is eligible to apply for a firearms license.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf)
https://gun.laws.com/state-gun-laws/new-york-gun-laws (https://gun.laws.com/state-gun-laws/new-york-gun-laws)
@thackney This was almost 35 years ago, I saw his permit, I literally grew up right next to him, and yes it was completely legal.
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I notice over the past numbers of pages on this thread that the discussion on drugs instead of gun regulation has muted the libs on the site.
Discussion of individual responsibility has no reaction from those wishing to control people through regulation.
Speaks volumes.
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(http://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/644188_526552814037754_1413004826_n.jpg?oh=2face78271a905523cfc3e7986a9c946&oe=5B1A8B13)
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Police report (https://media.local10.com/document_dev/2018/02/15/Nikolas%20Cruz%20PC_1518731458159_11666926_ver1.0.pdf) on the Cruz shooting.
Thanks for posting. Stuff like this is usually best looked back into After other info is released.
Good to have it on file.
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Fox News reporting 'the FBI did NOT FOLLOW PROTOCAL, Miami office NOT NOTIFIED'
Blood of 17 on Comey's FBI; too busy framing Trump to protect Americans from known serious threat of harm.
Not gonna lie, I felt bad for the Miami Field Office rep having to answer questions about why the DC FBIs fouled up.
But if we're going to sell our freedoms for some nebulous guarantees of safety, we don't deserve either. (Paraphrasing a FF here)
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(http://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/644188_526552814037754_1413004826_n.jpg?oh=2face78271a905523cfc3e7986a9c946&oe=5B1A8B13)
Absolutely.
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Schizophrenics hear voices. It may be a strong indication that the lack of drugs was a factor.
Schizophrenia typically manifests itself at around that age - late teens to early 20's. And it is a horrendous disease that affects the wealthy and the poor and everyone in between.
For several years I worked as a finance manager of a private social work agency. They provided private case management and psychotherapy and ran a group home for schizophrenics among other services like providing hospitals and school systems with social workers (licensed MSW’s) on either a temporary or long term basis.
One of our “clients†was a 40 something year old man who had firsts been diagnosed with schizophrenia in his early 20’s. From what I understood and knew about him, early on in his life, he was very normal and actually exceptionally bright, a promising mathematician and on track to become an aerospace engineer and his parents, who seemed to be good and deeply religious (Jewish) people, and were quite wealthy and loved him dearly.
But his schizophrenia really started manifesting while he was in grad school and his parents had him committed to a private and well known psychiatric hospital several times, but since he had by then reached adulthood, they couldn’t keep him there against his will unless he was posing a real and credible threat to himself or others. As long as he was on his meds and getting counseling and psychiatric care, he was OK, no - not quite normal, but not stark raving mad.
But as his schizophrenia and its delusions and paranoia got worse and worse, he became increasingly non-compliant and preferred living on the streets and homeless and his parents couldn’t do anything about it until he was arrested for threating people or committing petty theft, but even then it was typically a 48-hour hold.
I remember him coming in to get counselling as a condition to get his small allowance, which would have been increased if he only he would agree to living in a group home and taking his meds. But he would comply just enough to get his small allowance and then disappear for weeks or months at a time. And OMG! he stunk to high heaven. I can’t begin to describe the extreme BO he had.
He would come into our office to get his “allowance†that his parents provided in hopes that it would be the carrot as opposed to a stick to get him into a more stable and controlled and safe environment. I’d had interactions with him when his social worker walked him to my office to get his allowance. Sometimes he was charming and engaging and obviously highly intelligent, even sometimes showed empathy like the day he saw me with a walking cast on my ankle due to a severe sprain and asked me about it and wanted to know that I was OK and not in too much pain, but at other times - not so much.
Most others in the office including some of the social workers were afraid of him and didn’t want to have anything to do with him nor be anywhere near him because of his stench and unpredictable.
One day he came in unexpected and knew enough to come to me as he knew I kept the petty cash (and FWIW, my office was outside of the main office and so no one but me knew he was there – not a good security set up in retrospect which was later changed).
He wanted his allowance and when I told him that I couldn’t give it to him unless he saw his social worker first as was the agreement, he freaked out and shouted and then screamed at me and called me the worst names imaginable and threatened to kill me unless I gave him his $20.
But I kept my composure and in my calmest and the most reassuring voice I could muster - what I used to and still, call my “Mister Rogers†voice (which I’ve sometimes found also helpful in dealing with toddlers having a meltdown), I talked him down enough that I could, under the guise of not having the cash in my office, to call for help.
I left that job about a year later and still to this day wonder what ever happened to him. I didn’t see him as a bad or evil person or demon possessed, although sometimes he acted that way, but rather I saw him as being a very sick person. By the Grace of (fill in your deity here) go I (or you or someone you love).
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"I remember him coming in to get counselling as a condition to get his small allowance, which would have been increased if he only he would agree to living in a group home and taking his meds. But he would comply just enough to get his small allowance and then disappear for weeks or months at a time. And OMG! he stunk to high heaven. I can’t begin to describe the extreme BO he had."
And there you have it folks.
Put yourself in the Patient's shoes.
Seems pretty off putting to live that way, don't it?
And yet the Patient Still PREFERRED all of that over the Mental Health system.
Makes you wonder which could be worse.
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"I remember him coming in to get counselling as a condition to get his small allowance, which would have been increased if he only he would agree to living in a group home and taking his meds. But he would comply just enough to get his small allowance and then disappear for weeks or months at a time. And OMG! he stunk to high heaven. I can’t begin to describe the extreme BO he had."
And there you have it folks.
Put yourself in the Patient's shoes.
Seems pretty off putting to live that way, don't it?
And yet the Patient Still PREFERRED all of that over the Mental Health system.
Makes you wonder which could be worse.
You are as usual, completely missing the point.
When he took his meds he was at least somewhat functional and civil and when he wasn’t when taking them, he was living on the streets, dumpster diving for food, sleeping in doorways for warmth and was either or harassing or outright threatening people or even sometimes violently attacking them because the “voices†in his head told him to, and he was arrested for being a peeping tom (and FWIW, he liked stalking little girls). And one of the great fears was that the “peeping tom†stuff might one day go way beyond that, into a full out sexual assault.
On one hand, I don’t like the idea of the “state†forcing people to take meds or be institutionalized against their will, but when you are dealing with a seriously mentally ill person, understand that they cannot make rational decisions for themselves and when they are not able to function or care for themselves or pose a risk to society I think society has a vested interest in not only caring for them, but also protecting us from them and if that includes meds and forced confinement into a mental institution, so be it.
But I guess you think because of your hatred of all mediations and the psychiatric profession, that you would rather see someone like him living on the streets and sometimes posing real threats to his own wellbeing and to others.
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You are as usual, completely missing the point.
When he took his meds he was at least somewhat functional and civil and when he wasn’t when taking them, he was living on the streets, dumpster diving for food, sleeping in doorways for warmth and was either or harassing or outright threatening people or even sometimes violently attacking them because the “voices†in his head told him to, and he was arrested for being a peeping tom (and FWIW, he liked stalking little girls). And one of the great fears was that the “peeping tom†stuff might one day go way beyond that, into a full out sexual assault.
On one hand, I don’t like the idea of the “state†forcing people to take meds or be institutionalized against their will, but when you are dealing with a seriously mentally ill person, understand that they cannot make rational decisions for themselves and when they are not able to function or care for themselves or pose a risk to society I think society has a vested interest in not only caring for them, but also protecting us from them and if that includes meds and forced confinement into a mental institution, so be it.
But I guess you think because of your hatred of all mediations and the psychiatric profession, that you would rather see someone like him living on the streets and sometimes posing real threats to his own wellbeing and to others.
@Neverdul
I think the point is the drugs aren't a cure. All they do is cover up the symptoms and have severe side effects. Our mental health system is broken and people are dying because of it.
Sorry if that makes you feel bad but it's not an attack on you.
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My son on the autism spectrum and attention defficate takes meds, and if he were to miss his morning dose before school which has happened a few times we are guaranteed to get a call from the school for being pulled out of class for disruptive uncontrollerable behavior. But on meds, he is a very normal student as far as his behavior and attention paid in class. At one time I was one of those that thought meds and bad parenting was the root cause for these kids. Seeing this first hand with my own chimed was an eye opener.
That said, there was a great article in Scientific American called "Autisms Drug Problem" About the drug cocktailsmany of these kids take. There is little study about how the mixture of different drugs and the negative effects to psychiatric drugs they may be taking. And that some symptoms like tics and impulse control can become worse because of the mixture of drugs.
Drugs can be the answer to a lot of problems, or can make the situation worse.
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My son on the autism spectrum and attention defficate takes meds, and if he were to miss his morning dose before school which has happened a few times we are guaranteed to get a call from the school for being pulled out of class for disruptive uncontrollerable behavior. But on meds, he is a very normal student as far as his behavior and attention paid in class. At one time I was one of those that thought meds and bad parenting was the root cause for these kids. Seeing this first hand with my own chimed was an eye opener.
That said, there was a great article in Scientific American called "Autisms Drug Problem" About the drug cocktailsmany of these kids take. There is little study about how the mixture of different drugs and the negative effects to psychiatric drugs they may be taking. And that some symptoms like tics and impulse control can become worse because of the mixture of drugs.
Drugs can be the answer to a lot of problems, or can make the situation worse.
I was listening to a radio program on it one time. They said 12% of the kids in Massachusetts were on Ritalin
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@Neverdul
I think the point is the drugs aren't a cure. All they do is cover up the symptoms and have severe side effects. Our mental health system is broken and people are dying because of it.
Sorry if that makes you feel bad but it's not an attack on you.
Agreed. The medical profession in general has limitations. Oncologists lose patients. Cardiologists lose patients. Mental health professionals lose patients. This, despite using all the tools available.
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You are as usual, completely missing the point.
When he took his meds he was at least somewhat functional and civil and when he wasn’t when taking them, he was living on the streets, dumpster diving for food, sleeping in doorways for warmth and was either or harassing or outright threatening people or even sometimes violently attacking them because the “voices†in his head told him to, and he was arrested for being a peeping tom (and FWIW, he liked stalking little girls). And one of the great fears was that the “peeping tom†stuff might one day go way beyond that, into a full out sexual assault.
On one hand, I don’t like the idea of the “state†forcing people to take meds or be institutionalized against their will, but when you are dealing with a seriously mentally ill person, understand that they cannot make rational decisions for themselves and when they are not able to function or care for themselves or pose a risk to society I think society has a vested interest in not only caring for them, but also protecting us from them and if that includes meds and forced confinement into a mental institution, so be it.
But I guess you think because of your hatred of all mediations and the psychiatric profession, that you would rather see someone like him living on the streets and sometimes posing real threats to his own wellbeing and to others.
We have criminal laws.
When and if 'He' violates them, arrest him.
As for his own 'wellbeing' sending the State in to force him to do what the State considers in his best interest, is a very progressive POV.
Take a Bow.
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@Neverdul
real threats to his own wellbeing and to others.
https://www.madinamerica.com/2014/11/psychiatrists-psychologists-reliable-expert-witnesses/ (https://www.madinamerica.com/2014/11/psychiatrists-psychologists-reliable-expert-witnesses/)
https://www.amazon.com/Whores-Court-Psychiatric-Testimony-American/dp/0060391979 (https://www.amazon.com/Whores-Court-Psychiatric-Testimony-American/dp/0060391979)
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My son on the autism spectrum and attention defficate takes meds, and if he were to miss his morning dose before school which has happened a few times we are guaranteed to get a call from the school for being pulled out of class for disruptive uncontrollerable behavior. But on meds, he is a very normal student as far as his behavior and attention paid in class. At one time I was one of those that thought meds and bad parenting was the root cause for these kids. Seeing this first hand with my own chimed was an eye opener.
That said, there was a great article in Scientific American called "Autisms Drug Problem" About the drug cocktailsmany of these kids take. There is little study about how the mixture of different drugs and the negative effects to psychiatric drugs they may be taking. And that some symptoms like tics and impulse control can become worse because of the mixture of drugs.
Drugs can be the answer to a lot of problems, or can make the situation worse.
Perhaps your son is one of the exceptions. I don't know. But I DO know that there are FAR too many children walking around zonked today because the folks around them are too damned lazy and preoccupied with other things to do their jobs as parents and teachers.
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I was listening to a radio program on it one time. They said 12% of the kids in Massachusetts were on Ritalin
Wonder how the good folks in Massachusetts handled such children before there was any Ritalin?
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Agreed. The medical profession in general has limitations. Oncologists lose patients. Cardiologists lose patients. Mental health professionals lose patients. This, despite using all the tools available.
EVERY doctor is going to lose ALL their patients eventually! Fact of life! ALL a doctor can do is try to make the time you have left of as high a quality as possible!
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Perhaps your son is one of the exceptions. I don't know. But I DO know that there are FAR too many children walking around zonked today because the folks around them are too damned lazy and preoccupied with other things to do their jobs as parents and teachers.
Parents and teachers, even the terrible ones don't prescribe medication unless they have a MD behind their name. The medication regiment usually start with a trip to the family doctor, who wonder what the hell is happening with Johnny. If the doctor is good he or she will recognize systems and if it looks like ASD or ADD, the parents would get a referral to a specialist who can better evaluate what's going on in that little head. I could write a whole page on the life of a young boy on the autism spectrum seeing it first hand, but I can tell you this I do not know how our family could have stayed together without the help of good doctors with his interest in mind.
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Parents and teachers, even the terrible ones don't prescribe medication unless they have a MD behind their name. The medication regiment usually start with a trip to the family doctor, who wonder what the hell is happening with Johnny. If the doctor is good he or she will recognize systems and if it looks like ASD or ADD, the parents would get a referral to a specialist who can better evaluate what's going on in that little head. I could write a whole page on the life of a young boy on the autism spectrum seeing it first hand, but I can tell you this I do not know how our family could have stayed together without the help of good doctors with his interest in mind.
I'm truly happy that has all worked out well for you.
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Wonder how the good folks in Massachusetts handled such children before there was any Ritalin?
Laboratory grade speed.
College students get strung out on it using it to study.
It works for about 3 years, and then, the remainder of their life is that of a burnt out speed freak.
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"I remember him coming in to get counselling as a condition to get his small allowance, which would have been increased if he only he would agree to living in a group home and taking his meds. But he would comply just enough to get his small allowance and then disappear for weeks or months at a time. And OMG! he stunk to high heaven. I can’t begin to describe the extreme BO he had."
And there you have it folks.
Put yourself in the Patient's shoes.
Seems pretty off putting to live that way, don't it?
And yet the Patient Still PREFERRED all of that over the Mental Health system.
Makes you wonder which could be worse.
No, he was sick. Good grief. **nononono*
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Wonder how the good folks in Massachusetts handled such children before there was any Ritalin?
@Bigun
I think they said "go outside and play"
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Schizophrenia typically manifests itself at around that age - late teens to early 20's. And it is a horrendous disease that affects the wealthy and the poor and everyone in between.
....
I left that job about a year later and still to this day wonder what ever happened to him. I didn’t see him as a bad or evil person or demon possessed, although sometimes he acted that way, but rather I saw him as being a very sick person. By the Grace of (fill in your deity here) go I (or you or someone you love).
Powerful story, @Neverdul.
And, some of those people who take care of the sickest of the sick are angels.
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@Bigun
I think they said "go outside and play"
Or perhaps "the garden needs weeding!"
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(http://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/27858767_1821062471238095_1100978911637462780_n.jpg?oh=caf5256ff685626e4d479580e885dc22&oe=5B055938)
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No, he was sick. Good grief. **nononono*
But I guess you think because of your hatred of all mediations and the psychiatric profession, that you would rather see someone like him living on the streets and sometimes posing real threats to his own wellbeing and to others.
@Neverdul tried to blow me off by marginalizing me as a "Hater".
Consider the frame of reference, the automatic genulflection, the bending of the knee, that's been ingrained into society by this con job.
Then cite me an actual cure.
Psych is not one electron, proton or neutron closer to curing anything than it was in Joseph Mengele's experiments.
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Schizophrenia typically manifests itself at around that age - late teens to early 20's. And it is a horrendous disease that affects the wealthy and the poor and everyone in between.
For several years I worked as a finance manager of a private social work agency. They provided private case management and psychotherapy and ran a group home for schizophrenics among other services like providing hospitals and school systems with social workers (licensed MSW’s) on either a temporary or long term basis.
One of our “clients†was a 40 something year old man who had firsts been diagnosed with schizophrenia in his early 20’s. From what I understood and knew about him, early on in his life, he was very normal and actually exceptionally bright, a promising mathematician and on track to become an aerospace engineer and his parents, who seemed to be good and deeply religious (Jewish) people, and were quite wealthy and loved him dearly.
But his schizophrenia really started manifesting while he was in grad school and his parents had him committed to a private and well known psychiatric hospital several times, but since he had by then reached adulthood, they couldn’t keep him there against his will unless he was posing a real and credible threat to himself or others. As long as he was on his meds and getting counseling and psychiatric care, he was OK, no - not quite normal, but not stark raving mad.
But as his schizophrenia and its delusions and paranoia got worse and worse, he became increasingly non-compliant and preferred living on the streets and homeless and his parents couldn’t do anything about it until he was arrested for threating people or committing petty theft, but even then it was typically a 48-hour hold.
I remember him coming in to get counselling as a condition to get his small allowance, which would have been increased if he only he would agree to living in a group home and taking his meds. But he would comply just enough to get his small allowance and then disappear for weeks or months at a time. And OMG! he stunk to high heaven. I can’t begin to describe the extreme BO he had.
He would come into our office to get his “allowance†that his parents provided in hopes that it would be the carrot as opposed to a stick to get him into a more stable and controlled and safe environment. I’d had interactions with him when his social worker walked him to my office to get his allowance. Sometimes he was charming and engaging and obviously highly intelligent, even sometimes showed empathy like the day he saw me with a walking cast on my ankle due to a severe sprain and asked me about it and wanted to know that I was OK and not in too much pain, but at other times - not so much.
Most others in the office including some of the social workers were afraid of him and didn’t want to have anything to do with him nor be anywhere near him because of his stench and unpredictable.
One day he came in unexpected and knew enough to come to me as he knew I kept the petty cash (and FWIW, my office was outside of the main office and so no one but me knew he was there – not a good security set up in retrospect which was later changed).
He wanted his allowance and when I told him that I couldn’t give it to him unless he saw his social worker first as was the agreement, he freaked out and shouted and then screamed at me and called me the worst names imaginable and threatened to kill me unless I gave him his $20.
But I kept my composure and in my calmest and the most reassuring voice I could muster - what I used to and still, call my “Mister Rogers†voice (which I’ve sometimes found also helpful in dealing with toddlers having a meltdown), I talked him down enough that I could, under the guise of not having the cash in my office, to call for help.
I left that job about a year later and still to this day wonder what ever happened to him. I didn’t see him as a bad or evil person or demon possessed, although sometimes he acted that way, but rather I saw him as being a very sick person. By the Grace of (fill in your deity here) go I (or you or someone you love).
@Neverdul , thank you so much for sharing. Not only are you cool for liking "South Park" but you are amazing to have the career you did.
I've known a lot of schizophrenics when I was in academia too. Brilliant minds that had to drop out of school in their senior year or graduate school.
Medication is so tricky because you feel better but the side effects are miserable. So when you get stable you go off them. It's a no win. And hospitals for the most part are getting worse, because they are understaffed and they shove in the haldol and prop patients in front ofTV.
That's my experience of working with the hospitals near me anyway.
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But I guess you think because of your hatred of all mediations and the psychiatric profession, that you would rather see someone like him living on the streets and sometimes posing real threats to his own wellbeing and to others.
@Neverdul tried to blow me off by marginalizing me as a "Hater".
Consider the frame of reference, the automatic genulflection, the bending of the knee, that's been ingrained into society by this con job.
Then cite me an actual cure.
Psych is not one electron, proton or neutron closer to curing anything than it was in Joseph Mengele's experiments.
Look, we recognize that you have an unreasoning hatred of the medical and mental health professions. No need to attack member posters here because they don't agree with you.
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@Neverdul
real threats to his own wellbeing and to others.
https://www.madinamerica.com/2014/11/psychiatrists-psychologists-reliable-expert-witnesses/ (https://www.madinamerica.com/2014/11/psychiatrists-psychologists-reliable-expert-witnesses/)
https://www.amazon.com/Whores-Court-Psychiatric-Testimony-American/dp/0060391979 (https://www.amazon.com/Whores-Court-Psychiatric-Testimony-American/dp/0060391979)
What? Nothing from the "church" of Scientology? Never mind. It turns out that the writer and the founder and president of that website, Robert Whitaker - Mad In America, is supported by, funded by, touted by, and promotes Scientology.
Get thee to thy E-meter. (And shell out all of your life savings and become a slave to that cult)
22222frying pan
https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/myths/mad-in-america.html (https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/myths/mad-in-america.html)
https://www.madinamerica.com/2013/07/robert-whitaker-speaks-at-nami-national-convention/ (https://www.madinamerica.com/2013/07/robert-whitaker-speaks-at-nami-national-convention/)
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@Neverdul
I think the point is the drugs aren't a cure. All they do is cover up the symptoms and have severe side effects. Our mental health system is broken and people are dying because of it.
Sorry if that makes you feel bad but it's not an attack on you.
No one, and certainly not me are saying that drugs can cure schizophrenia, there is no cure. But it has been found to be a brain chemistry disorder that can be hereditary and can be ameliorated and kept at bay by a combination of pharmaceuticals and behavioral therapy and yes, sometimes as necessary, forced commitment for the safety of the schizophrenic and others in the general public.
Sorry if that makes you "feel" bad.
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But I guess you think because of your hatred of all mediations and the psychiatric profession, that you would rather see someone like him living on the streets and sometimes posing real threats to his own wellbeing and to others.
@Neverdul tried to blow me off by marginalizing me as a "Hater".
Consider the frame of reference, the automatic genulflection, the bending of the knee, that's been ingrained into society by this con job.
Then cite me an actual cure.
Psych is not one electron, proton or neutron closer to curing anything than it was in Joseph Mengele's experiments.
@To-Whose-Benefit?
I never said you were a "Hater". Project much?
22222frying pan
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The schizophrenics I worked with as an RN in a State Mental Hospital were often disorganized, unable to plan, and incapable of carrying out a plan like Cruz did.
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<>
I already posted it and you can do your own research on Scientology and their crusade against the mental health profession. Mad In America is associated with or has been infiltrated by Scientologists and the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) which has ties to Mad In America, is a Scientology associated group.
https://whyweprotest.net/threads/rethinking-psychiatry-accused-of-being-front-groups-for-scientology-front-group-cchr.120564/ (https://whyweprotest.net/threads/rethinking-psychiatry-accused-of-being-front-groups-for-scientology-front-group-cchr.120564/)
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientologys-view-on-psychiatry/ (https://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientologys-view-on-psychiatry/)
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@Neverdul
<>
Produce my exact words in any post where I ever called you "Hater". I did note "your hatred of all medications and the psychiatric profession". Is that not true by your very own words and numerous posts here?
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Reminder:
In order to keep personal insults from continuing to derail this thread and demean this topic, Mods will be departing from normal activities and will be removing any responses that are clearly personal insults.
This is a serious topic: 17 kids and adults shot dead in a school. Take the personal insults elsewhere.
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@Neverdul
You are trying to get this thread locked down because views that contradict your own cannot be tolerated, or for that matter, even viewed.
Take control. Dehumanize, Discredit, and Shut it off.
It's the Psychiatric way.
Take a chemical or 220V to 440V electric pole line transformer to those that annoy you and slug them into silence.
I've already provided copious links to the drugs.
Earlier, another poster claimed that we used to (past tense) use electric shock on patients.
ECT is still very much in business.
http://psych.ucsf.edu/ECT (http://psych.ucsf.edu/ECT)
Have a look at what it is:
https://www.ect.org/resources/machines.html (https://www.ect.org/resources/machines.html)
Next I suppose you'll tell me that these people are also Scientologists:
http://www.mindfreedom.org/ (http://www.mindfreedom.org/)
Here's more on ECT:
http://www.mindfreedom.org/search?SearchableText=ECT (http://www.mindfreedom.org/search?SearchableText=ECT)
The benefits? of ECT cannot be scientifically justified.
http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/mental-health-abuse/electroshock/ect-review-2010-read-bentall.pdf/view (http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/mental-health-abuse/electroshock/ect-review-2010-read-bentall.pdf/view)
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@MOD3
I will be only too happy to keep it above the level of personal insults.
My previous reply was being composed Before I read your reminder.
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@Neverdul
You are trying to get this thread locked down because views that contradict your own cannot be tolerated, or for that matter, even viewed.
I did no such thing. I didn't report nor did request that the thread be locked down or to have your posts be removed. The Mods did that on their own.
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Very many opinions on psychotherapy, drugs, ECT and the like have been expressed, even if they had nothing to do with this shooting. Please stay on topic in future.
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I find it interesting they changed the acronym from EST to ECT. I had to go to TWB's cites to find that out. So now they proudly declare these are induced convulsions? (I basically skimmed, so I may have misread something.)
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I did no such thing. I didn't report nor did request that the thread be locked down or to have your posts be removed. The Mods did that on their own.
I asked you for proof that Robert Whitaker is a shill for Scientology.
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I asked you for proof that Robert Whitaker is a shill for Scientology.
Like I said ... let's get this thread back on its original subject.
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@Neverdul
@To-Whose-Benefit?
Please drop this argument now. This is not to be a thread about Scientology or adherents thereof.
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@MOD3
I will be only too happy to keep it above the level of personal insults.
My previous reply was being composed Before I read your reminder.
Why should we have to remind anyone to avoid personal insults? Ever?
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I don't know if this is related to the topic, but there is a kid that lives down the block, maybe 12 now. He has to have constant adult supervision at school now. They have assigned a person to be with this kid every minute he is at school. To keep him from bullying other kids.
God forbid the little bastard ever has access to firearms.
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I don't know if this is related to the topic, but there is a kid that lives down the block, maybe 12 now. He has to have constant adult supervision at school now. They have assigned a person to be with this kid every minute he is at school. To keep him from bullying other kids.
God forbid the little bastard ever has access to firearms.
Very much on topic. Wonder what kind of parents he has?
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Very much on topic. Wonder what kind of parents he has?
We think his dad is the local "El Chapo". Never seen either parent leave for the day like they have jobs. But they got a brand new black Camaro last year.
There is a schizo kid that lives down the block. Police were called because he was sporting what appeared to be an assault type rifle a couple of weeks ago. They were Johnny on the spot and disarmed him. But not before he had shot out the back window of his dad's H2. It was "merely" a pellet gun. He was here a little while ago. Knocking on the door. He makes his rounds trying to bum smokes. Every house up and down the street. Every day. 3 or 8 times a day. We have a note on the door asking not to ask for smokes, but he ignores it.
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When in doubt, do not risk the lives and safety of the many, to coddle the unfortunate mentally ill person.
e.g. STOP MAINSTREAMING.
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Schizophrenia typically manifests itself at around that age - late teens to early 20's. And it is a horrendous disease that affects the wealthy and the poor and everyone in between.
For several years I worked as a finance manager of a private social work agency. They provided private case management and psychotherapy and ran a group home for schizophrenics among other services like providing hospitals and school systems with social workers (licensed MSW’s) on either a temporary or long term basis.
One of our “clients†was a 40 something year old man who had firsts been diagnosed with schizophrenia in his early 20’s. From what I understood and knew about him, early on in his life, he was very normal and actually exceptionally bright, a promising mathematician and on track to become an aerospace engineer and his parents, who seemed to be good and deeply religious (Jewish) people, and were quite wealthy and loved him dearly.
But his schizophrenia really started manifesting while he was in grad school and his parents had him committed to a private and well known psychiatric hospital several times, but since he had by then reached adulthood, they couldn’t keep him there against his will unless he was posing a real and credible threat to himself or others. As long as he was on his meds and getting counseling and psychiatric care, he was OK, no - not quite normal, but not stark raving mad.
But as his schizophrenia and its delusions and paranoia got worse and worse, he became increasingly non-compliant and preferred living on the streets and homeless and his parents couldn’t do anything about it until he was arrested for threating people or committing petty theft, but even then it was typically a 48-hour hold.
I remember him coming in to get counselling as a condition to get his small allowance, which would have been increased if he only he would agree to living in a group home and taking his meds. But he would comply just enough to get his small allowance and then disappear for weeks or months at a time. And OMG! he stunk to high heaven. I can’t begin to describe the extreme BO he had.
He would come into our office to get his “allowance†that his parents provided in hopes that it would be the carrot as opposed to a stick to get him into a more stable and controlled and safe environment. I’d had interactions with him when his social worker walked him to my office to get his allowance. Sometimes he was charming and engaging and obviously highly intelligent, even sometimes showed empathy like the day he saw me with a walking cast on my ankle due to a severe sprain and asked me about it and wanted to know that I was OK and not in too much pain, but at other times - not so much.
Most others in the office including some of the social workers were afraid of him and didn’t want to have anything to do with him nor be anywhere near him because of his stench and unpredictable.
One day he came in unexpected and knew enough to come to me as he knew I kept the petty cash (and FWIW, my office was outside of the main office and so no one but me knew he was there – not a good security set up in retrospect which was later changed).
He wanted his allowance and when I told him that I couldn’t give it to him unless he saw his social worker first as was the agreement, he freaked out and shouted and then screamed at me and called me the worst names imaginable and threatened to kill me unless I gave him his $20.
But I kept my composure and in my calmest and the most reassuring voice I could muster - what I used to and still, call my “Mister Rogers†voice (which I’ve sometimes found also helpful in dealing with toddlers having a meltdown), I talked him down enough that I could, under the guise of not having the cash in my office, to call for help.
I left that job about a year later and still to this day wonder what ever happened to him. I didn’t see him as a bad or evil person or demon possessed, although sometimes he acted that way, but rather I saw him as being a very sick person. By the Grace of (fill in your deity here) go I (or you or someone you love).
Such a sad story, and I believe there are more people with these kind of problems than we realize. Individual vs. societal rights is a huge and intractable conflict here; I have a college friend who is a disability advocate who fights against forced medication.
Much like the police and law enforcement agencies who have a scattershot approach, the mental health system in this country is piecemeal and uncoordinated. And the two need to work together more closely and better.
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@Neverdul
I think the point is the drugs aren't a cure. All they do is cover up the symptoms and have severe side effects. Our mental health system is broken and people are dying because of it.
Sorry if that makes you feel bad but it's not an attack on you.
For diseases like both schizophrenia and diabetes, there are no cures, only medications that treat the symptoms. But treating the symptoms is necessary until a cure can be found.
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We have criminal laws.
When and if 'He' violates them, arrest him.
As for his own 'wellbeing' sending the State in to force him to do what the State considers in his best interest, is a very progressive POV.
Take a Bow.
The shooter in FL has now violated the law and been arrested. The system worked. (Adding a /sarc tag, just to be sure.)
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@Neverdul , thank you so much for sharing. Not only are you cool for liking "South Park" but you are amazing to have the career you did.
I've known a lot of schizophrenics when I was in academia too. Brilliant minds that had to drop out of school in their senior year or graduate school.
Medication is so tricky because you feel better but the side effects are miserable. So when you get stable you go off them. It's a no win. And hospitals for the most part are getting worse, because they are understaffed and they shove in the haldol and prop patients in front ofTV.
That's my experience of working with the hospitals near me anyway.
I really appreciate your all's posts!
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I already posted it and you can do your own research on Scientology and their crusade against the mental health profession. Mad In America is associated with or has been infiltrated by Scientologists and the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) which has ties to Mad In America, is a Scientology associated group.
https://whyweprotest.net/threads/rethinking-psychiatry-accused-of-being-front-groups-for-scientology-front-group-cchr.120564/ (https://whyweprotest.net/threads/rethinking-psychiatry-accused-of-being-front-groups-for-scientology-front-group-cchr.120564/)
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientologys-view-on-psychiatry/ (https://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientologys-view-on-psychiatry/)
Thank you for this.
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I already posted it and you can do your own research on Scientology and their crusade against the mental health profession. Mad In America is associated with or has been infiltrated by Scientologists and the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) which has ties to Mad In America, is a Scientology associated group.
https://whyweprotest.net/threads/rethinking-psychiatry-accused-of-being-front-groups-for-scientology-front-group-cchr.120564/ (https://whyweprotest.net/threads/rethinking-psychiatry-accused-of-being-front-groups-for-scientology-front-group-cchr.120564/)
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientologys-view-on-psychiatry/ (https://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientologys-view-on-psychiatry/)
@Neverdul
I had a scientologost that worked for me. She wouldn't even speak with a customer who worked in mental health. No contact at all.
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When in doubt, do not risk the lives and safety of the many, to coddle the unfortunate mentally ill person.
e.g. STOP MAINSTREAMING.
Here's a related story/observation, which may be a bit dated but I think is still relevant. When I first became a teacher in South Los Angeles in 1999-2000, my best friend was a special ed teacher (grades 4-5). She had a lot of students with intellectual disabilities and a few who had more behavioral problems -- mostly ADHD but some worse/potentially violent. Based on her experience and training:
It is very difficult to get a kid medically diagnosed and labeled by the school system as "Severely Emotionally Disturbed". The designation has lifelong consequences for the student, precluding them from jobs with the police and the military among other things.
This may not be such a concern in this FL district, but in schools with high levels of poverty the effects of an SED label are definitely severe.
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Very much on topic. Wonder what kind of parents he has?
If he's severe enough to have a One-to-One aide, (which costs the school a lot of money), he has worse internal problems than just inept parents. You have to REALLY REALLY fight the system to get a kid a One-to-One, and parenting excuses just won't rate one.
I don't know where your district is, but they must be quite concerned about him.
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I don't know if this is related to the topic, but there is a kid that lives down the block, maybe 12 now. He has to have constant adult supervision at school now. They have assigned a person to be with this kid every minute he is at school. To keep him from bullying other kids.
God forbid the little bastard ever has access to firearms.
I think it is a terrible mistake to have a student that will not or cannot meet basic behavior requirements to remain in mainstream school. Is there going to be constant supervision for the rest of his life?
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I think it is a terrible mistake to have a student that will not or cannot meet basic behavior requirements to remain in mainstream school. Is there going to be constant supervision for the rest of his life?
He's certainly going to expect it, and he'll get it when he gets out of school and is no longer subject to the one-on-one. I just feel sorry for whomever it is that gets hurt in the process.
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He's certainly going to expect it, and he'll get it when he gets out of school and is no longer subject to the one-on-one. I just feel sorry for whomever it is that gets hurt in the process.
Me, too ;(. Because it sounds like there definitely will be someone.
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Me, too ;(. Because it sounds like there definitely will be someone.
I'm sad to say this, but you can make book on that. Unless he's unlucky enough to try his bullying shtick on an armed man who knows him. It will end right then and there.
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I'm sad to say this, but you can make book on that. Unless he's unlucky enough to try his bullying shtick on an armed man who knows him. It will end right then and there.
Or someone who’s a Karate triple black belt ;). Some of the Jewish kids I know are pretty bad-_ss mean, though they don’t have guns.
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I think it is a terrible mistake to have a student that will not or cannot meet basic behavior requirements to remain in mainstream school. Is there going to be constant supervision for the rest of his life?
My late brother-in-law required constant supervision for much of his life, especially that last 20 years or so of it (MR/DD, not schizophrenic or anything like that). The stress on the closest family members is tremendous.
The issue is always the availability of care and who will pay for it. It's similar to this so-called opioid crisis. We all agree addicts should go through a rehab program to get off drugs, but where's the money for it? My state is broke, and we have a lot of addicts and young people with behavioral issues (considering the autism spectrum is so broad) to try to help. :shrug:
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Or someone who’s a Karate triple black belt ;). Some of the Jewish kids I know are pretty bad-_ss mean, though they don’t have guns.
Understood. A nice handgun makes up for the lack of the years of training it takes to be a Black Belt.
I should mention I live in a state adjacent to yours, where people can carried concealed without a by-your-leave from the government. Mrs. Liberty and I carry everywhere we go nowadays. A man was shot dead at the Walmart she frequents, and they are happy she carries there.
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My late brother-in-law required constant supervision for much of his life, especially that last 20 years or so of it (MR/DD, not schizophrenic or anything like that). The stress on the closest family members is tremendous.
The issue is always the availability of care and who will pay for it. It's similar to this so-called opioid crisis. We all agree addicts should go through a rehab program to get off drugs, but where's the money for it? My state is broke, and we have a lot of addicts and young people with behavioral issues (considering the autism spectrum is so broad) to try to help. :shrug:
I’m so sorry your family is going through this. He’s incredibly lucky he has family like you all to help him. My sister lived with us for eight years as she died of COPD, and I have no idea how people who are alone would cope ;(. Long-term illness of any kind puts terrible strain on everyone. I’ll pray for you all.
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Thank you, Laura. He passed away a few years ago. The family took care of him without any governmental assistance until his father died, then we had to get him on Title 19 services, Medicaid and the like.
There are services funded by the feds for certain mental conditions, but I suspect they aren't available (except privately) for all of the behavioral problems we've been talking about in this thread.
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My late brother-in-law required constant supervision for much of his life, especially that last 20 years or so of it (MR/DD, not schizophrenic or anything like that). The stress on the closest family members is tremendous.
The issue is always the availability of care and who will pay for it. It's similar to this so-called opioid crisis. We all agree addicts should go through a rehab program to get off drugs, but where's the money for it? My state is broke, and we have a lot of addicts and young people with behavioral issues (considering the autism spectrum is so broad) to try to help. :shrug:
I vote for confinement, without many frills. Cannot or will not live in mainstream society, then be excluded from it. And at low cost.
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I vote for confinement, without many frills. Cannot or will not live in mainstream society, then be excluded from it. And at low cost.
I think it's a good thing you didn't have a vote on @mountaineer's rel.
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Thank you, Laura. He passed away a few years ago. The family took care of him without any governmental assistance until his father died, then we had to get him on Title 19 services, Medicaid and the like.
There are services funded by the feds for certain mental conditions, but I suspect they aren't available (except privately) for all of the behavioral problems we've been talking about in this thread.
I think you’re right about only certain conditions being covered. It can definitely be a financial drain; it took two years for my sister to qualify for disability and MediCare (she was only 57), and I had no idea how expensive oxygen tanks were! We were lucky enough to have resources to afford them.
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MR/DD
I don't know what that means. Kudos to you and your family for stepping up to do what her required.
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I don't know what that means. Kudos to you and your family for stepping up to do what her required.
Mental retardation/developmental disabilities. It's a term that's been replaced by something more politically correct, I believe.
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Or someone who’s a Karate triple black belt ;). Some of the Jewish kids I know are pretty bad-_ss mean, though they don’t have guns.
This may make you feel better. The Junior ROTC in that school were heroic and likely saved lives. More kids follow leadership like this, the safer they will be. Unfortunately, this is buried by the MSM
Heroes: JROTC students’ quick thinking, training saved dozens from shooter at Florida high school
Two 17-year-old students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School coupled their quick-thinking skills and Junior Reserve Officers’ Training Corps training to help save dozens of lives when Nikolas Cruz went on his shooting spree, killing 17 people, Wednesday in Parkland, Florida.
Company commander Capt. Zackary Walls, 17, and Capt. Colton Haab, 17, told ABC News that they had decided to end their outdoor formations early that fateful day. They had taken their students back inside the school just moments before the fire alarm that sounded just as the massacre began.
Walls and Haab took charge and herded students and teachers into a classroom after they heard gunshots ringing out nearby. The two JROTC captains used materials inside the room to create a barrier between them and the killer and prepared themselves for a fight.
(https://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/screen-shot-2018-02-16-at-9.13.28-am-1280x720.jpg)
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/16/heroes-jrotc-students-quick-thinking-training-saved-dozens-from-shooter-at-florida-high-school (https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/16/heroes-jrotc-students-quick-thinking-training-saved-dozens-from-shooter-at-florida-high-school)
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This may make you feel better. The Junior ROTC in that school were heroic and likely saved lives. More kids follow leadership like this, the safer they will be. Unfortunately, this is buried by the MSM
Heroes: JROTC students’ quick thinking, training saved dozens from shooter at Florida high school
Two 17-year-old students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School coupled their quick-thinking skills and Junior Reserve Officers’ Training Corps training to help save dozens of lives when Nikolas Cruz went on his shooting spree, killing 17 people, Wednesday in Parkland, Florida.
Company commander Capt. Zackary Walls, 17, and Capt. Colton Haab, 17, told ABC News that they had decided to end their outdoor formations early that fateful day. They had taken their students back inside the school just moments before the fire alarm that sounded just as the massacre began.
Walls and Haab took charge and herded students and teachers into a classroom after they heard gunshots ringing out nearby. The two JROTC captains used materials inside the room to create a barrier between them and the killer and prepared themselves for a fight.
(https://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/screen-shot-2018-02-16-at-9.13.28-am-1280x720.jpg)
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/16/heroes-jrotc-students-quick-thinking-training-saved-dozens-from-shooter-at-florida-high-school (https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/16/heroes-jrotc-students-quick-thinking-training-saved-dozens-from-shooter-at-florida-high-school)
Kids like that and their fellow JROTC cadet that died keeping a door open for kids to get out give me hope that their entire generation won't end up as limp wristed snowflakes.
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This may make you feel better. The Junior ROTC in that school were heroic and likely saved lives. More kids follow leadership like this, the safer they will be. Unfortunately, this is buried by the MSM
Heroes: JROTC students’ quick thinking, training saved dozens from shooter at Florida high school
Two 17-year-old students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School coupled their quick-thinking skills and Junior Reserve Officers’ Training Corps training to help save dozens of lives when Nikolas Cruz went on his shooting spree, killing 17 people, Wednesday in Parkland, Florida.
Company commander Capt. Zackary Walls, 17, and Capt. Colton Haab, 17, told ABC News that they had decided to end their outdoor formations early that fateful day. They had taken their students back inside the school just moments before the fire alarm that sounded just as the massacre began.
Walls and Haab took charge and herded students and teachers into a classroom after they heard gunshots ringing out nearby. The two JROTC captains used materials inside the room to create a barrier between them and the killer and prepared themselves for a fight.
(https://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/screen-shot-2018-02-16-at-9.13.28-am-1280x720.jpg)
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/16/heroes-jrotc-students-quick-thinking-training-saved-dozens-from-shooter-at-florida-high-school (https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/16/heroes-jrotc-students-quick-thinking-training-saved-dozens-from-shooter-at-florida-high-school)
I'm so glad there were kids there who had the training and knowledge to help the other students. I know one of the JROTC members died helping others escape. I hope they don't get embroiled in the whole gun control debate, and that the other students respect their position, whatever that is. I'd guess they're more knowledgeable about weapons than most of the other kids.
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Kids like that and their fellow JROTC cadet that died keeping a door open for kids to get out give me hope that their entire generation won't end up as limp wristed snowflakes.
@txradioguy :thumbsup:
Still plenty of kids growing up with true values and morals. I admit that I'm skeptical, but there are many who believe as we do and they're raising damned good kids. :patriot:
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I'm so glad there were kids there who had the training and knowledge to help the other students. I know one of the JROTC members died helping others escape. I hope they don't get embroiled in the whole gun control debate, and that the other students respect their position, whatever that is. I'd guess they're more knowledgeable about weapons than most of the other kids.
They are matured to act that way.
My son many years ago went through the program, and although he did not go into the military, the discipline the Junior ROTC instilled in him was a strong positive.
My wish is that Congress and Trump make this a higher priority to fight the high school attitudes, especially in the urban areas, but I doubt they will see this as a way to building better solutions.
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Kids like that and their fellow JROTC cadet that died keeping a door open for kids to get out give me hope that their entire generation won't end up as limp wristed snowflakes.
Yes, the inner cities are the ones that really need some kick start toward reaching maturity, and a military bent is a damn good way to make it happen.
Did you notice article says these kids herded both students and teachers? That shows maturity.
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They hauled in at least, one more youth in the state who acted like he had plans or at least, was taunting.
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Yes, the inner cities are the ones that really need some kick start toward reaching maturity, and a military bent is a damn good way to make it happen.
Did you notice article says these kids herded both students and teachers? That shows maturity.
Interesting choice of words for our experience (although it was suburban, not inner for us)
https://www.kickstartkids.org/ (https://www.kickstartkids.org/)
We use karate to teach character building values to students in public schools. Studies show our program gives young people the tools and support needed to resist negative peer pressure, avoid self-destructive behaviors, and make responsible decisions. KICKSTART KIDS improves children’s lives, in the classroom and in life, by engaging students’ heart, head, and hands. Our goal is to positively influence the whole child for the life of the child and help create safer, healthier, and more productive communities.
(https://cdn1.lockerdomecdn.com/uploads/c4e710e1a01754f756cbf4b48a2f1915271ad248b6ad418c048f780500cf9fe1_large)
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Interesting choice of words for our experience (although it was suburban, not inner for us)
https://www.kickstartkids.org/ (https://www.kickstartkids.org/)
We use karate to teach character building values to students in public schools. Studies show our program gives young people the tools and support needed to resist negative peer pressure, avoid self-destructive behaviors, and make responsible decisions. KICKSTART KIDS improves children’s lives, in the classroom and in life, by engaging students’ heart, head, and hands. Our goal is to positively influence the whole child for the life of the child and help create safer, healthier, and more productive communities.
(https://cdn1.lockerdomecdn.com/uploads/c4e710e1a01754f756cbf4b48a2f1915271ad248b6ad418c048f780500cf9fe1_large)
This sounds like a great program. Plus Chuck Norris!!!
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Thanks for posting. Stuff like this is usually best looked back into After other info is released.
Good to have it on file.
http://startpage.lenovo.com/news/read/article/the_associated_press-calls_for_gun_control_grow_louder_after_florida_sh-ap/category/news (http://startpage.lenovo.com/news/read/article/the_associated_press-calls_for_gun_control_grow_louder_after_florida_sh-ap/category/news)
On Sept. 28, 2016, an investigator from the Florida Department of Children and Families visited Cruz and his mother, Lynda Cruz, after he posted video on Snapchat showing him cutting himself. The report showed that Cruz had written a racial epithet against African-Americans and a Nazi symbol on his book bag, which his mother had forced him to erase. The investigator said Cruz was suffering from depression and on medication and had told Lynda Cruz he planned to buy a gun, but she couldn't determine why.
She said he had been depressed after breaking up with a girlfriend who had been cheating on him, the investigator said. A school counselor told the investigator that Lynda Cruz had always tried to help her son and followed through on his therapy and medication, but the counselor was concerned about the youth's desire to buy a gun.
A crisis counselor told the DCF investigator he had visited the school and that he did not believe Cruz was a danger to himself or others. The case was closed, with the investigator concluding that Cruz was receiving help from his mother and counselors, and "no other referrals or services were needed."
Oops.
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http://startpage.lenovo.com/news/read/article/the_associated_press-calls_for_gun_control_grow_louder_after_florida_sh-ap/category/news (http://startpage.lenovo.com/news/read/article/the_associated_press-calls_for_gun_control_grow_louder_after_florida_sh-ap/category/news)
Oops.
@Smokin Joe
His mom died a few months ago
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I think it is a terrible mistake to have a student that will not or cannot meet basic behavior requirements to remain in mainstream school. Is there going to be constant supervision for the rest of his life?
They were there before. Before "no child left behind", the classes in larger schools were divided by standardized test scores, with those who grouped similarly in the same class sections. Those with behavioural disorders and low scores tended to be in the same group, and as such were not mainstream but in the same school, just with less interaction with the more academically successful students. But that was in the days when those with notable violent tendencies were more likely to be institutionalized before they went on a rampage.
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Even today in my school district, the behavioral problem children are segregated in "autism" classrooms. I believe that isn't done post-elementary level, however ( thus putting other students and teachers at risk).
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@Smokin Joe
His mom died a few months ago
Note the date of the interview, Sept of 2016. If his mom died in the meantime, who was keeping an eye on him or his meds? What were those meds?Had he quit them on his own (not generally recommended because of the long list of serious effects from withdrawal, depending on the medication).
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Note the date of the interview, Sept of 2016. If his mom died in the meantime, who was keeping an eye on him or his meds? What were those meds?Had he quit them on his own (not generally recommended because of the long list of serious effects from withdrawal, depending on the medication).
I understand he was living at a friend's house. His friend's mom was shocked she had a monster living in her home.
I never considered owning a Sport Rifle before, but I'm starting to look around now. I looked at a nice one chambered in 9mm this morning, with a lazer sight. Very reasonably priced, and I have a crapton of 9mm ammo.
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I understand he was living at a friend's house. His friend's mom was shocked she had a monster living in her home.
Which means his mental health issues were completely unsupervised, most likely. (He was likely off his meds.)
I never considered owning a Sport Rifle before, but I'm starting to look around now. I looked at a nice one chambered in 9mm this morning, with a lazer sight. Very reasonably priced, and I have a crapton of 9mm ammo.
Nine mm is nice for house work, can be loaded with subsonic ammo and suppressed as well. If you are using it for defense, check out frangible rounds for high energy transfer to the target and less likely multi wall penetration in the event of a miss (fewer through and through wounds as well). If you are carrying it outside, you may want different ammo in the mag with a little more muzzle velocity and penetration, say hollow points which are higher velocity than the subsonic rounds. The MP5 got a lot of agencies by for a long time (and still may be in use).
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Which means his mental health issues were completely unsupervised, most likely. (He was likely off his meds.)
Nine mm is nice for house work, can be loaded with subsonic ammo and suppressed as well. If you are using it for defense, check out frangible rounds for high energy transfer to the target and less likely multi wall penetration in the event of a miss (fewer through and through wounds as well). If you are carrying it outside, you may want different ammo in the mag with a little more muzzle velocity and penetration, say hollow points which are higher velocity than the subsonic rounds. The MP5 got a lot of agencies by for a long time (and still may be in use).
Yeah, I was thinking house gun, I already have that ammo for my 9mm semi-auto handguns. Not a lot of use for a lazer site outside. I have a nice .45 LC long gun for mid-range outdoor use, iron sights. I don't have a high-power deer rifle, no point to it while living in the 'Burbs, but after I retire outside of the city I'd like to get one with a nice scope, either .308 or 30-06.
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Even today in my school district, the behavioral problem children are segregated in "autism" classrooms. I believe that isn't done post-elementary level, however ( thus putting other students and teachers at risk).
One big problem is putting behavior-problem students in with autustic, Down’s Syndrome, and intellectually disabled students. Kids with anger and discipline problems should be in an SED (severely emotionally disturbed) classroom. But everyone hesitates to label a kid as SED because it has lifelong consequences. It makes it hard to join the military or law enforcement.
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One big problem is putting behavior-problem students in with autustic, Down’s Syndrome, and intellectually disabled students. Kids with anger and discipline problems should be in an SED (severely emotionally disturbed) classroom. But everyone hesitates to label a kid as SED because it has lifelong consequences. It makes it hard to join the military or law enforcement.
As it probably should.
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As it probably should.
Yes, but because they know it will have consequences, SpecEd staff hesitate to designate kids even when they probably should.
This shooter was in JROTC and on their competitive shooting team. They were probably trying to turn him around. I would argue that with all the violence he exhibited toward animals, in this instance was doomed to failure. But SED would have made it impossible in any case.
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Yes, but because they know it will have consequences, SpecEd staff hesitate to designate kids even when they probably should.
This shooter was in JROTC and on their competitive shooting team. They were probably trying to turn him around. I would argue that with all the violence he exhibited toward animals, in this instance was doomed to failure. But SED would have made it impossible in any case.
Yep. And, we're going to keep having avoidable killings because of that sort of "hesitation".
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Being "bipolar" is almost a status symbol among some young people.
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Yep. And, we're going to keep having avoidable killings because of that sort of "hesitation".
Exactly! ;(
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Really interesting! Are you still in LA/OC?
Yes
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Exactly. Rather than dealing with difficult behavior problems it’s much easier to reach for the prescription pad and voilà , problem solved.
Of this I can speak with experience, yes many children are misdiagnosed and drugged by shysters and lazy so called professionals. But ADD/ADHD is real, and there are children that are greatly assisted by Ritalin, not to help the teacher or it shouldn't be, but as a tool to help the child train themselves when it is used correctly. My son was identified as ADHD when he was in first grade by one of the true professionals working in the field. He prescribed Ritalin and counseling and we used Ritalin only on his worst days at school, never at home. As ADHD children grow they learn to control their impulses and are usually very intelligent and talented. I never agreed nor do I now with drugging a child to control them.
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Perhaps someone else has posted this, but I just came across it:
Here’s Why Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Never Reported Nikolas Cruz to the Police
by Luis Valdes |
Feb 16, 2018
Nikolas Cruz was a known threat. Known by the administrators of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. It’s a clear case where a known dangerous student was not reported to the police. Why?
Because back in 2013, the Broward County School Board adopted a program where they don’t relay information to police about troubled students.
NPR reported in Fla. School District Trying To Curb School-To-Prison Pipeline (https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/11/05/243250817/fla-school-district-trying-to-curb-school-to-prison-pipeline):
It’s a move away from so-called “zero tolerance†policies that require schools to refer even minor misdemeanors to the police. Critics call it a “school to prison pipeline.â€
Under a new program adopted by the Broward County School District, non-violent misdemeanors — even those that involve alcohol, marijuana or drug paraphernalia — will now be handled by the schools instead of the police.
Cruz was banned from carrying a backpack at school after bullets were found in his backpack. Cruz was expelled from MSD last year after a fight with his ex-girlfriend’s new boyfriend.
Non-violent misdemeanors? Even so, red flags were flying.
Again, the Broward County School Board has an official policy requiring that they don’t tell the police about non-violent incidents with troubled youth. ...
Rest of article at The Truth About Guns (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/02/luis-valdes/heres-why-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-school-never-reported-nikolas-cruz-to-the-police/)
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Of this I can speak with experience, yes many children are misdiagnosed and drugged by shysters and lazy so called professionals. But ADD/ADHD is real, and there are children that are greatly assisted by Ritalin, not to help the teacher or it shouldn't be, but as a tool to help the child train themselves when it is used correctly. My son was identified as ADHD when he was in first grade by one of the true professionals working in the field. He prescribed Ritalin and counseling and we used Ritalin only on his worst days at school, never at home. As ADHD children grow they learn to control their impulses and are usually very intelligent and talented. I never agreed nor do I now with drugging a child to control them.
@GtHawk 20+ years ago I taught at an alternative school I had a student (I'll call him Bob) whose mother regularly either forgot to give him his meds or would run out. Every day I would great him as he came in, "Hello Bob" . If he said hello back it was probably going to be a good day. On the other hand if the reply was "Hiddly Ho big guy how are they hanging" I wold offer him the opportunity to go right to time out. I still maintain that some children desperately need their meds, for others it is for the convenience of either the parents or teachers. When we had out one foster son I did not give him medication during the summer or extended holidays. Yes there were some very difficult days.
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Perhaps someone else has posted this, but I just came across it:
Cruz was banned from carrying a backpack at school after bullets were found in his backpack. Cruz was expelled from MSD last year after a fight with his ex-girlfriend’s new boyfriend.
Non-violent misdemeanors? Even so, red flags were flying.
Again, the Broward County School Board has an official policy requiring that they don’t tell the police about non-violent incidents with troubled youth. ...Rest of article at The Truth About Guns (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/02/luis-valdes/heres-why-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-school-never-reported-nikolas-cruz-to-the-police/)
This is the exact same policy that kept Trayvon Martin in school after he had been caught robbing lockers and in possession f stolen jewelry, etc... Very easy for board members to make these policies and not see the unintended consequences of their actions.
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This is the exact same policy that kept Trayvon Martin in school after he had been caught robbing lockers and in possession f stolen jewelry, etc... Very easy for board members to make these policies and not see the unintended consequences of their actions.
Similarly, those calling for single access points for schools here may not have considered the ramifications of funneling hundreds or even a couple thousand students through that access point simultaneously as school starts or lets out, or worse yet, in an emergency. Even gophers have enough sense to have a back door.
My first High School (not in ND, needless to say) was only 1400 students, but all but one door had been chained and locked shut to limit access to the building during ongoing race riots, in direct and conspicuous violation of fire codes. That's when the bomb threats started coming in.
Despite that unrest (late '60s/early'70s), there were no mass shootings.
What changed, culturally? Both sides in that era had been raised in families and even schools where prayer started the day, along with The Pledge of Allegiance. Violence on television and even in the movies (movies were rated 'X' for violence, not just sexual content and profanity--the "TV MA" rating group today would have qualified) was not graphic, life was considered sacred, and every child was at least exposed to the idea of a God who would ultimately judge their actions. For those who would argue that there were no AR-15s around, I will only state that a M1 carbine was a popular rifle, lightweight, and came with 30 round magazines, too. IOW, while the tools were not so intimidating in appearance as today's black sporting rifles, they were just as capable at ranges inside 100 yards. But those who had exposure to firearms, had had so from fathers, uncles, and others who had been in or close to combat, be it WWII or Korea, or even WWI, men who were men of peace because they had been men at war. The concepts of Chivalry (OMG! SEXISM!) and Honor were still prized in a culture that believed all were equal in the eyes of God. And as for 'gun control', the Form 4473 was still new, and most guns in private hands had been purchased, often by mail order, without background checks, no NICS, no databases, only at the discretion of the seller, and military surplus arms were quite common. Some pre-NFA (1934) firearms were still floating around, just not so commonly seen. Mass shootings were still rare outside of warfare (why the St. Valentine's Day Massacre was such a headline-getter) and commonly linked to organized crime.
The idea of "senseless killing" was something fresh in the minds of those who had been in WWII; millions had died in the death camps and massacres in Europe and Asia, but not something which fit in in America. If you were going to risk the electric chair, the rope, the gas chamber, or the firing squad, you were going to have a solid reason for wanting someone dead. Just killing someone for no reason that you didn't know wasn't a consideration, much less women and children.
Since then, the Marxists in our society have been on a serious campaign to not only eliminate The Almighty from our zeitgeist, but to eliminate the concepts of chivalry, honor, integrity, and fundamental morality as well. Unfortunately, they have been wildly successful at sowing the seeds of that libertine self-destruction, and continue to do so to this day. More children, our own children, will never see the light of day, not at the hands of some enemy, but because of a slaughter proclaimed a 'right' to be free of the responsibility to raise them, something abdicated to the ministrations of a government interested in control of the masses, not the quality of the outcome.
What we are seeing is not the result of newer and more improved hardware--the tools of the infantryman in WWII were fully adequate to the task of taking lives, and doing so in large numbers and even from a distance--it is a result of a sickness imposed on our culture through media exposure to evil and the exclusion of the very universal concepts that made this country great.
If we truly want to "Make America Great Again" it is time to reconsider the road we are on.
We have people howling about school shootings, but this is just a symptom, not the malady.
In my youth the following were generally unthinkable:
Killing someone for no reason, especially a bunch of people.
Beating your wife/kid/dog/horse. The last three could be disciplined, but special stigma was attached to anyone who beat his wife (men did not strike ladies), or who excessively harmed the last three. Corporal punishment was commonplace, but limited in intensity, and administered with a dispassionate, often reluctant mien (as opposed to a mean mien).
Torture of animals or people.
Rape (still had the death penalty as a possibility when I was a kid, and that isn't counting what would happen if the family caught the perp first).
Abortion.
Drugs for recreational use, especially hard drugs, IV drugs.
(The big three culturally acceptable drugs were coffee, tobacco, and alcohol, in moderation, and some folks didn't use any of them.)
Letting anyone come in your home and take your children under any pretense.
Letting anyone routinely monitor your private communications, be they business or personal.
Harming a child (not disciplining, not corporal punishment, but serious physical harm or mental torture), or, for that matter, mistreating an animal. Varmints and sick/injured animals were dispatched promptly.
Hitting a woman, except in the most unusual circumstance of self-defense.
Placing the lives of wild animals above the lives or livelihoods of people, but not to include killing them for no reason.
Wasting any resource (a holdover from the Great Depression, and even leaner times before that).
Stealing.
Cussing in public, but especially in front of women (the 'mixed company' taboo--in front of children was considered socially unacceptable as well).
Sexual Promiscuity or Homosexuality. (We knew of it, it existed, but it was not in evidence, much less pouring out of television sets into living rooms across the country). Far from being celebrated, both were spoken of with derision and not in front of the children.
To not respect our elders. (This is a fundamental fabrication of the Marxists who want, ultimately, State control of children, in that it disrupts cultural continuity.
From the creation of the 'generation gap' to labeling each successive generation (or decade) as some letter or with a name to make people think there is no common and linking thread, but instead some sort of adversarial relationship between youth and those older, right down to modifying fundamental curricula to the point parents can't even help children with homework, is all designed to disrupt the ordinary cultural flow which binds a people together, and in this case, the conveyance of the concepts of Liberty, responsibility, and morality, which form the essence of our culture.
Leaving successive generations without a cultural rudder or a moral compass makes them vulnerable to exploitation, especially when the values which are to be summarily discarded are those which are the fundamental concepts of an entire republic and way of life.)
Sex education in any formal context before tenth grade health class. Puberty is distracting enough, but by focusing attention on sex at an early age, not only are children deprived of childhood, but taught to think of each other not in terms of person and personality, but as potential sexual partners first. This is exactly the opposite of the whole idea of not being 'sex objects' because it makes everyone one (or rejected as one) and takes the focus off of personal development and puts it on the rut. While there are those who proclaim it "liberating", in actuality, it is dehumanizing and takes the focus off of personality development and places it on more superficial objectification.
It isn't hard to see that many of the stated goals of those who would change our society (and have done so) are in direct conflict with other stated goals, but the end game in all this confusion is the destruction of the culture which stepped into two world wars and ended them, one which has survived its hard knocks, and come out on top. Keeping in mind that the Marxists and others who would 'rule the world' view their aims with the religious fervor many Americans used to view The Almighty with, there will be no lack of evil influence on our culture.
Had I been told in 1965 that the day would come when tobacco was all but banned, but marijuana was being asserted to be legal (as a government revenue generator) I would have scoffed at such dystopian fiction. After watching people in shock (from an event or injury) reach for a cigarette to help get a grip or find relief, and being subsequently told that there were no beneficial effects of tobacco (peripheral vasoconstrictor which offsets shock), I would have laughed. Yet here we are.
If I had been told that the promiscuity which populated Huxley's Brave New World would become reality, and more, that it would be celebrated in culture, song, and media, and proclaimed protected by law, even to ignore and foster the spread of a deadly disease, I would have scoffed, claiming that cooler heads would prevail.
If I had been told that language I never heard my parents use would become so commonplace as to pour from my TV, I would have dismissed the teller as 'nuts'.
And had I been told that this country would eventually rack up a body count of murdered babies that would exceed any nation's death camps of WWII or purges, I would have believed it impossible.
Yet, here we are.
And if someone wants to blame a piece of hardware for the lunatic actions of a person produced by such a culture, perhaps it is because it is easier to put a bandage on the boil than to admit the festering corruption that produced it. Our society has become gravely ill, and this shooter is just one symptom.
At every level, from mental health, to disciplinary, to communications between the school and LEOs, to the inaction of LEOs when the information was there, the system that claims if we just give up one more right it will be enough (this time, until the mechanisms in place fail again), failed to prevent this event.
Imposition of control from outside is no solution, only a band aid. Curing the cultural rot that has taken root is the only way to prevent such events in the future, to make them unthinkable acts. We are a long way from that, especially if we won't even diagnose the infection. It is the ultimate abdication of responsibility to blame the tool, rather than the person that wielded it, and the culture that produced that person.
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Similarly, those calling for single access points for schools here may not have considered the ramifications of funneling hundreds or even a couple thousand students through that access point simultaneously as school starts or lets out, or worse yet, in an emergency. Even gophers have enough sense to have a back door.
My first High School (not in ND, needless to say) was only 1400 students, but all but one door had been chained and locked shut to limit access to the building during ongoing race riots, in direct and conspicuous violation of fire codes. That's when the bomb threats started coming in.
Despite that unrest (late '60s/early'70s), there were no mass shootings.
What changed, culturally? Both sides in that era had been raised in families and even schools where prayer started the day, along with The Pledge of Allegiance. Violence on television and even in the movies (movies were rated 'X' for violence, not just sexual content and profanity--the "TV MA" rating group today would have qualified) was not graphic, life was considered sacred, and every child was at least exposed to the idea of a God who would ultimately judge their actions. For those who would argue that there were no AR-15s around, I will only state that a M1 carbine was a popular rifle, lightweight, and came with 30 round magazines, too. IOW, while the tools were not so intimidating in appearance as today's black sporting rifles, they were just as capable at ranges inside 100 yards. But those who had exposure to firearms, had had so from fathers, uncles, and others who had been in or close to combat, be it WWII or Korea, or even WWI, men who were men of peace because they had been men at war. The concepts of Chivalry (OMG! SEXISM!) and Honor were still prized in a culture that believed all were equal in the eyes of God. And as for 'gun control', the Form 4473 was still new, and most guns in private hands had been purchased, often by mail order, without background checks, no NICS, no databases, only at the discretion of the seller, and military surplus arms were quite common. Some pre-NFA (1934) firearms were still floating around, just not so commonly seen. Mass shootings were still rare outside of warfare (why the St. Valentine's Day Massacre was such a headline-getter) and commonly linked to organized crime.
The idea of "senseless killing" was something fresh in the minds of those who had been in WWII; millions had died in the death camps and massacres in Europe and Asia, but not something which fit in in America. If you were going to risk the electric chair, the rope, the gas chamber, or the firing squad, you were going to have a solid reason for wanting someone dead. Just killing someone for no reason that you didn't know wasn't a consideration, much less women and children.
Since then, the Marxists in our society have been on a serious campaign to not only eliminate The Almighty from our zeitgeist, but to eliminate the concepts of chivalry, honor, integrity, and fundamental morality as well. Unfortunately, they have been wildly successful at sowing the seeds of that libertine self-destruction, and continue to do so to this day. More children, our own children, will never see the light of day, not at the hands of some enemy, but because of a slaughter proclaimed a 'right' to be free of the responsibility to raise them, something abdicated to the ministrations of a government interested in control of the masses, not the quality of the outcome.
What we are seeing is not the result of newer and more improved hardware--the tools of the infantryman in WWII were fully adequate to the task of taking lives, and doing so in large numbers and even from a distance--it is a result of a sickness imposed on our culture through media exposure to evil and the exclusion of the very universal concepts that made this country great.
If we truly want to "Make America Great Again" it is time to reconsider the road we are on.
We have people howling about school shootings, but this is just a symptom, not the malady.
In my youth the following were generally unthinkable:
Killing someone for no reason, especially a bunch of people.
Beating your wife/kid/dog/horse. The last three could be disciplined, but special stigma was attached to anyone who beat his wife (men did not strike ladies), or who excessively harmed the last three. Corporal punishment was commonplace, but limited in intensity, and administered with a dispassionate, often reluctant mien (as opposed to a mean mien).
Torture of animals or people.
Rape (still had the death penalty as a possibility when I was a kid, and that isn't counting what would happen if the family caught the perp first).
Abortion.
Drugs for recreational use, especially hard drugs, IV drugs.
(The big three culturally acceptable drugs were coffee, tobacco, and alcohol, in moderation, and some folks didn't use any of them.)
Letting anyone come in your home and take your children under any pretense.
Letting anyone routinely monitor your private communications, be they business or personal.
Harming a child (not disciplining, not corporal punishment, but serious physical harm or mental torture), or, for that matter, mistreating an animal. Varmints and sick/injured animals were dispatched promptly.
Hitting a woman, except in the most unusual circumstance of self-defense.
Placing the lives of wild animals above the lives or livelihoods of people, but not to include killing them for no reason.
Wasting any resource (a holdover from the Great Depression, and even leaner times before that).
Stealing.
Cussing in public, but especially in front of women (the 'mixed company' taboo--in front of children was considered socially unacceptable as well).
Sexual Promiscuity or Homosexuality. (We knew of it, it existed, but it was not in evidence, much less pouring out of television sets into living rooms across the country). Far from being celebrated, both were spoken of with derision and not in front of the children.
To not respect our elders. (This is a fundamental fabrication of the Marxists who want, ultimately, State control of children, in that it disrupts cultural continuity.
From the creation of the 'generation gap' to labeling each successive generation (or decade) as some letter or with a name to make people think there is no common and linking thread, but instead some sort of adversarial relationship between youth and those older, right down to modifying fundamental curricula to the point parents can't even help children with homework, is all designed to disrupt the ordinary cultural flow which binds a people together, and in this case, the conveyance of the concepts of Liberty, responsibility, and morality, which form the essence of our culture.
Leaving successive generations without a cultural rudder or a moral compass makes them vulnerable to exploitation, especially when the values which are to be summarily discarded are those which are the fundamental concepts of an entire republic and way of life.)
Sex education in any formal context before tenth grade health class. Puberty is distracting enough, but by focusing attention on sex at an early age, not only are children deprived of childhood, but taught to think of each other not in terms of person and personality, but as potential sexual partners first. This is exactly the opposite of the whole idea of not being 'sex objects' because it makes everyone one (or rejected as one) and takes the focus off of personal development and puts it on the rut. While there are those who proclaim it "liberating", in actuality, it is dehumanizing and takes the focus off of personality development and places it on more superficial objectification.
It isn't hard to see that many of the stated goals of those who would change our society (and have done so) are in direct conflict with other stated goals, but the end game in all this confusion is the destruction of the culture which stepped into two world wars and ended them, one which has survived its hard knocks, and come out on top. Keeping in mind that the Marxists and others who would 'rule the world' view their aims with the religious fervor many Americans used to view The Almighty with, there will be no lack of evil influence on our culture.
Had I been told in 1965 that the day would come when tobacco was all but banned, but marijuana was being asserted to be legal (as a government revenue generator) I would have scoffed at such dystopian fiction. After watching people in shock (from an event or injury) reach for a cigarette to help get a grip or find relief, and being subsequently told that there were no beneficial effects of tobacco (peripheral vasoconstrictor which offsets shock), I would have laughed. Yet here we are.
If I had been told that the promiscuity which populated Huxley's Brave New World would become reality, and more, that it would be celebrated in culture, song, and media, and proclaimed protected by law, even to ignore and foster the spread of a deadly disease, I would have scoffed, claiming that cooler heads would prevail.
If I had been told that language I never heard my parents use would become so commonplace as to pour from my TV, I would have dismissed the teller as 'nuts'.
And had I been told that this country would eventually rack up a body count of murdered babies that would exceed any nation's death camps of WWII or purges, I would have believed it impossible.
Yet, here we are.
And if someone wants to blame a piece of hardware for the lunatic actions of a person produced by such a culture, perhaps it is because it is easier to put a bandage on the boil than to admit the festering corruption that produced it. Our society has become gravely ill, and this shooter is just one symptom.
At every level, from mental health, to disciplinary, to communications between the school and LEOs, to the inaction of LEOs when the information was there, the system that claims if we just give up one more right it will be enough (this time, until the mechanisms in place fail again), failed to prevent this event.
Imposition of control from outside is no solution, only a band aid. Curing the cultural rot that has taken root is the only way to prevent such events in the future, to make them unthinkable acts. We are a long way from that, especially if we won't even diagnose the infection. It is the ultimate abdication of responsibility to blame the tool, rather than the person that wielded it, and the culture that produced that person.
Wow Joe! That is like the post of the decade right there. God bless you my friend! @Smokin Joe
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Here is what we need to be addressing here. What do you do when a threat presents itself at a school? Everything else is a total waste of time IMHO.
I don't care what motivates the shooter(s) at that point. All I want to do is stop them from doing what they are intent on doing!
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Wow Joe! That is like the post of the decade right there. God bless you my friend! @Smokin Joe
@mrpotatohead Thanks! Nay God Bless You and Yours as well!
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@Smokin Joe
Correct. When placed in proper time perspective, the overall impact of incremental erosion of our society and civility as a whole is stunning.
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Of this I can speak with experience, yes many children are misdiagnosed and drugged by shysters and lazy so called professionals. But ADD/ADHD is real, and there are children that are greatly assisted by Ritalin, not to help the teacher or it shouldn't be, but as a tool to help the child train themselves when it is used correctly. My son was identified as ADHD when he was in first grade by one of the true professionals working in the field. He prescribed Ritalin and counseling and we used Ritalin only on his worst days at school, never at home. As ADHD children grow they learn to control their impulses and are usually very intelligent and talented. I never agreed nor do I now with drugging a child to control them.
What did parents, teachers and children do, before Ritalin?
Somehow before Ritalin, means and methods existed, for them to "they learn to control their impulses."
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What did parents, teachers and children do, before Ritalin?
Somehow before Ritalin, means and methods existed, for them to "they learn to control their impulses."
What did they do before Ritalin? Well, boys dropped out and went to work in construction. (Or, whatever)
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Here is what we need to be addressing here. What do you do when a threat presents itself at a school? Everything else is a total waste of time IMHO.
I don't care what motivates the shooter(s) at that point. All I want to do is stop them from doing what they are intent on doing!
The preventative mechanisms to foil the shooter were in place. They failed.
Mental health failed.
The school/LEO interface failed (by government decree).
The "OMG! Look at this facebook page!" LEO interface failed.
Law enforcement dropped the ball.
The shooter (former student) gained access to the school even though they were not enrolled, and had no legitimate purpose there.
The armed guard was not even aware (allegedly) of the presence of the person in the school.
Short of methods which would be considered a gateway to tyranny, from facial id software, to RFID to other means beyond just having metal detectors which will inevitably result in false positives, or TSA style monitoring of the student body, why not just abolish these warehouses of children and free daycare centers and shift to online interactive education for all but those few classes which require hands on curricula? (Chem lab, PE, shop/vocational classes).
If you limit ingress/egress to a physical facility all you have done is bottleneck any avenues of approach and escape for possible victims, which means multiple, and even single shooters could have a field day.
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who wants to use human nature against humans and try to anticipate how they could use human nature to work in favor of a high body count. Be diabolical. Anticipate how crowd movement could be used against the people in the crowd. Then, don't play into those scenarios, and do not construct physical barriers which make them possible, if not outright probable. If you can 'wargame' it, some sick bastard can too, and it is only a matter of time until someone with a psychotic bent does exactly that.
Remember, in the end, all this is merely a remedy for a more serious problem.
This event is pus draining from a festering cultural wound. Treating the underlying infection is the cure, not a band aid. If the numerous mechanisms in place to prevent this did not, will more mechanisms make anything safer? Or do they just provide an illusion of being safe?
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Similarly, those calling for single access points for schools here may not have considered the ramifications of funneling hundreds or even a couple thousand students through that access point simultaneously as school starts or lets out, or worse yet, in an emergency. Even gophers have enough sense to have a back door.
My first High School (not in ND, needless to say) was only 1400 students, but all but one door had been chained and locked shut to limit access to the building during ongoing race riots, in direct and conspicuous violation of fire codes. That's when the bomb threats started coming in.
Despite that unrest (late '60s/early'70s), there were no mass shootings.
What changed, culturally? Both sides in that era had been raised in families and even schools where prayer started the day, along with The Pledge of Allegiance. Violence on television and even in the movies (movies were rated 'X' for violence, not just sexual content and profanity--the "TV MA" rating group today would have qualified) was not graphic, life was considered sacred, and every child was at least exposed to the idea of a God who would ultimately judge their actions. For those who would argue that there were no AR-15s around, I will only state that a M1 carbine was a popular rifle, lightweight, and came with 30 round magazines, too. IOW, while the tools were not so intimidating in appearance as today's black sporting rifles, they were just as capable at ranges inside 100 yards. But those who had exposure to firearms, had had so from fathers, uncles, and others who had been in or close to combat, be it WWII or Korea, or even WWI, men who were men of peace because they had been men at war. The concepts of Chivalry (OMG! SEXISM!) and Honor were still prized in a culture that believed all were equal in the eyes of God. And as for 'gun control', the Form 4473 was still new, and most guns in private hands had been purchased, often by mail order, without background checks, no NICS, no databases, only at the discretion of the seller, and military surplus arms were quite common. Some pre-NFA (1934) firearms were still floating around, just not so commonly seen. Mass shootings were still rare outside of warfare (why the St. Valentine's Day Massacre was such a headline-getter) and commonly linked to organized crime.
The idea of "senseless killing" was something fresh in the minds of those who had been in WWII; millions had died in the death camps and massacres in Europe and Asia, but not something which fit in in America. If you were going to risk the electric chair, the rope, the gas chamber, or the firing squad, you were going to have a solid reason for wanting someone dead. Just killing someone for no reason that you didn't know wasn't a consideration, much less women and children.
Since then, the Marxists in our society have been on a serious campaign to not only eliminate The Almighty from our zeitgeist, but to eliminate the concepts of chivalry, honor, integrity, and fundamental morality as well. Unfortunately, they have been wildly successful at sowing the seeds of that libertine self-destruction, and continue to do so to this day. More children, our own children, will never see the light of day, not at the hands of some enemy, but because of a slaughter proclaimed a 'right' to be free of the responsibility to raise them, something abdicated to the ministrations of a government interested in control of the masses, not the quality of the outcome.
What we are seeing is not the result of newer and more improved hardware--the tools of the infantryman in WWII were fully adequate to the task of taking lives, and doing so in large numbers and even from a distance--it is a result of a sickness imposed on our culture through media exposure to evil and the exclusion of the very universal concepts that made this country great.
If we truly want to "Make America Great Again" it is time to reconsider the road we are on.
We have people howling about school shootings, but this is just a symptom, not the malady.
In my youth the following were generally unthinkable:
Killing someone for no reason, especially a bunch of people.
Beating your wife/kid/dog/horse. The last three could be disciplined, but special stigma was attached to anyone who beat his wife (men did not strike ladies), or who excessively harmed the last three. Corporal punishment was commonplace, but limited in intensity, and administered with a dispassionate, often reluctant mien (as opposed to a mean mien).
Torture of animals or people.
Rape (still had the death penalty as a possibility when I was a kid, and that isn't counting what would happen if the family caught the perp first).
Abortion.
Drugs for recreational use, especially hard drugs, IV drugs.
(The big three culturally acceptable drugs were coffee, tobacco, and alcohol, in moderation, and some folks didn't use any of them.)
Letting anyone come in your home and take your children under any pretense.
Letting anyone routinely monitor your private communications, be they business or personal.
Harming a child (not disciplining, not corporal punishment, but serious physical harm or mental torture), or, for that matter, mistreating an animal. Varmints and sick/injured animals were dispatched promptly.
Hitting a woman, except in the most unusual circumstance of self-defense.
Placing the lives of wild animals above the lives or livelihoods of people, but not to include killing them for no reason.
Wasting any resource (a holdover from the Great Depression, and even leaner times before that).
Stealing.
Cussing in public, but especially in front of women (the 'mixed company' taboo--in front of children was considered socially unacceptable as well).
Sexual Promiscuity or Homosexuality. (We knew of it, it existed, but it was not in evidence, much less pouring out of television sets into living rooms across the country). Far from being celebrated, both were spoken of with derision and not in front of the children.
To not respect our elders. (This is a fundamental fabrication of the Marxists who want, ultimately, State control of children, in that it disrupts cultural continuity.
From the creation of the 'generation gap' to labeling each successive generation (or decade) as some letter or with a name to make people think there is no common and linking thread, but instead some sort of adversarial relationship between youth and those older, right down to modifying fundamental curricula to the point parents can't even help children with homework, is all designed to disrupt the ordinary cultural flow which binds a people together, and in this case, the conveyance of the concepts of Liberty, responsibility, and morality, which form the essence of our culture.
Leaving successive generations without a cultural rudder or a moral compass makes them vulnerable to exploitation, especially when the values which are to be summarily discarded are those which are the fundamental concepts of an entire republic and way of life.)
Sex education in any formal context before tenth grade health class. Puberty is distracting enough, but by focusing attention on sex at an early age, not only are children deprived of childhood, but taught to think of each other not in terms of person and personality, but as potential sexual partners first. This is exactly the opposite of the whole idea of not being 'sex objects' because it makes everyone one (or rejected as one) and takes the focus off of personal development and puts it on the rut. While there are those who proclaim it "liberating", in actuality, it is dehumanizing and takes the focus off of personality development and places it on more superficial objectification.
It isn't hard to see that many of the stated goals of those who would change our society (and have done so) are in direct conflict with other stated goals, but the end game in all this confusion is the destruction of the culture which stepped into two world wars and ended them, one which has survived its hard knocks, and come out on top. Keeping in mind that the Marxists and others who would 'rule the world' view their aims with the religious fervor many Americans used to view The Almighty with, there will be no lack of evil influence on our culture.
Had I been told in 1965 that the day would come when tobacco was all but banned, but marijuana was being asserted to be legal (as a government revenue generator) I would have scoffed at such dystopian fiction. After watching people in shock (from an event or injury) reach for a cigarette to help get a grip or find relief, and being subsequently told that there were no beneficial effects of tobacco (peripheral vasoconstrictor which offsets shock), I would have laughed. Yet here we are.
If I had been told that the promiscuity which populated Huxley's Brave New World would become reality, and more, that it would be celebrated in culture, song, and media, and proclaimed protected by law, even to ignore and foster the spread of a deadly disease, I would have scoffed, claiming that cooler heads would prevail.
If I had been told that language I never heard my parents use would become so commonplace as to pour from my TV, I would have dismissed the teller as 'nuts'.
And had I been told that this country would eventually rack up a body count of murdered babies that would exceed any nation's death camps of WWII or purges, I would have believed it impossible.
Yet, here we are.
And if someone wants to blame a piece of hardware for the lunatic actions of a person produced by such a culture, perhaps it is because it is easier to put a bandage on the boil than to admit the festering corruption that produced it. Our society has become gravely ill, and this shooter is just one symptom.
At every level, from mental health, to disciplinary, to communications between the school and LEOs, to the inaction of LEOs when the information was there, the system that claims if we just give up one more right it will be enough (this time, until the mechanisms in place fail again), failed to prevent this event.
Imposition of control from outside is no solution, only a band aid. Curing the cultural rot that has taken root is the only way to prevent such events in the future, to make them unthinkable acts. We are a long way from that, especially if we won't even diagnose the infection. It is the ultimate abdication of responsibility to blame the tool, rather than the person that wielded it, and the culture that produced that person.
Outstanding!
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The preventative mechanisms to foil the shooter were in place. They failed.
Mental health failed.
The school/LEO interface failed (by government decree).
The "OMG! Look at this facebook page!" LEO interface failed.
Law enforcement dropped the ball.
The shooter (former student) gained access to the school even though they were not enrolled, and had no legitimate purpose there.
The armed guard was not even aware (allegedly) of the presence of the person in the school.
Short of methods which would be considered a gateway to tyranny, from facial id software, to RFID to other means beyond just having metal detectors which will inevitably result in false positives, or TSA style monitoring of the student body, why not just abolish these warehouses of children and free daycare centers and shift to online interactive education for all but those few classes which require hands on curricula? (Chem lab, PE, shop/vocational classes).
If you limit ingress/egress to a physical facility all you have done is bottleneck any avenues of approach and escape for possible victims, which means multiple, and even single shooters could have a field day.
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who wants to use human nature against humans and try to anticipate how they could use human nature to work in favor of a high body count. Be diabolical. Anticipate how crowd movement could be used against the people in the crowd. Then, don't play into those scenarios, and do not construct physical barriers which make them possible, if not outright probable. If you can 'wargame' it, some sick bastard can too, and it is only a matter of time until someone with a psychotic bent does exactly that.
Remember, in the end, all this is merely a remedy for a more serious problem.
This event is pus draining from a festering cultural wound. Treating the underlying infection is the cure, not a band aid. If the numerous mechanisms in place to prevent this did not, will more mechanisms make anything safer? Or do they just provide an illusion of being safe?
@Smokin Joe
What little preventive mechanisms there were had ZERO chance of success because they were so woefully inadequate! One uniformed armed security guard at a campus with more than 4000 people present is a sick joke!
I'm not one of those who has advocated creating bottlenecks which only serve to concentrate targets! What I'm saying is that there needs to be enough armed people on campus at all times to deal with a potential threat and most of them need to be unknown to the student body!
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@Smokin Joe
What little preventive mechanisms there were had ZERO chance of success because they were so woefully inadequate! One uniformed armed security guard at a campus with more than 4000 people present is a sick joke!
I'm not one of those who has advocated creating bottlenecks which only serve to concentrate targets! What I'm saying is that there needs to be enough armed people on campus at all times to deal with a potential threat and most of them need to be unknown to the student body!
I agree. I love surprises. I think the bad guys should always be surprised, which is why I carry concealed.
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I think the bad guys should always be surprised, which is why I carry concealed.
Ditto.
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What did parents, teachers and children do, before Ritalin?
Somehow before Ritalin, means and methods existed, for them to "they learn to control their impulses."
What ADHD? It didn't even have an acronym.
Some kids were just 'busy'. and inventive parents or teachers found ways to keep little Johnny or Janie busy. That requires effort, inventiveness, and attention to what interests a child. Children commonly learned to cope and focus, although not all persons who genuinely have ADHD can.
Recess/play involved vigorous activity, often with minimal supervision, occasional physical conflict, abundant torn out knees in pants and abraded skin by the acre. Helicopter parenting, like the helicopter, was relatively uncommon. Rural (especially farm) kids always had plenty of diverse activities to engage in (lots to do--AKA: chores).
We had a cup of coffee in the morning (another stimulant that promotes focus), got bored with the slower stuff in school, but knew we'd face the track-mounted nun with her WMD (weapon of metacarpal destruction) if we went too far, or the principal with his 'board of education'--a device which was used, and not just a wall ornament. That paled in comparison to the trouble we'd be in when we got home--and our parents would find out--the school would call them, in an era when social services was in relative infancy and not in a hurry to cry "Abuse!" and take children away when they felt the impact of a hand or switch on their bottom. All of that promoted self-discipline. Situations of corporal excess were often dealt with by extended family. Limits were established, and punishment meted in a way that had an impact.
We played outside if the weather permitted (you'd be surprised what that means in different regions, we've had to tell the kids to get off the bicycle and put their hat and gloves on when it was -20 out).
We were also taught by elders we respected, were taught to grant that respect by our elders, and taught those rules of civility applied to everyone, even parents and teachers. But that was a different culture, where the same rules were consistent from home to school, to church, wherever you went, not the sort of confusion that comes from trying to impose common core math on what should have been simple arithmetic.
Much of what we learned was by rote: (...two times two is four, three times two is six....), the right answer was the right answer, and confusion levels were much, much lower.
While there are cases of ADHD (I have met a couple of folks who genuinely had this, and interacting with them in a professional setting was a challenge, but involved realizing what was going on (job went long, his meds ran out, his doctor was 1000 miles away) and steering the conversation back on topic. Not only did that work, but the chap was one of the best Directional Drillers I have ever worked with. But to give children that sort of attention requires that first, the genuine ADHD cases be sorted from disciplinary/behaviour issues, and that there be the ability to deal with both situations. That takes effort and time, which frankly, 'one size fits all' education is not geared to provide. It is far easier to medicate even the borderline cases and even those who just won't behave than deal with them separately and enforce discipline when that is what is needed. (Besides, IIRC, there is extra funding for any 'special needs' kids, by the head, of course).
Again, I know there are people who genuinely have this condition, but question whether it is overdiagnosed as a path of least resistance, especially with school age children. After observing the behaviour of three generations of kids/grandkids/great grandkids, some are just more active and inquisitive than others, and all go through phases where their attention spans are short. Even with that in mind, our children are increasingly routinely stimulated with media and entertainment which promotes a short attention span, a situation which demands instantaneous sensory gratification and not the protracted focus needed to delve in depth into any project.
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@Smokin Joe
What little preventive mechanisms there were had ZERO chance of success because they were so woefully inadequate! One uniformed armed security guard at a campus with more than 4000 people present is a sick joke!
I'm not one of those who has advocated creating bottlenecks which only serve to concentrate targets! What I'm saying is that there needs to be enough armed people on campus at all times to deal with a potential threat and most of them need to be unknown to the student body!
The preventative mechanisms present were not engaged.
The school didn't notify anyone of the problems they had had with him. There is a policy against that.
The online stuff was reported, and it even stated intent serious enough to be actionable, but no one pursued the information.
The mental health aspects, including medication, went unreported (patient privacy, and all that).
The puzzle pieces were there, but no one put the pieces together until after the fact.
This kid could have had someone skywrite his intentions but no one looked up.
Prevention failed.
Being armed is just the ability to react to the developing crime; it isn't prevention, it's mitigation.
That said, it's far better than nothing, and I'm all for it. Where is the "If it saves just one life" crowd on that?
Because the ability to stop the crime in progress will.
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I agree. I love surprises. I think the bad guys should always be surprised, which is why I carry concealed.
Actually, I hate surprises. They are almost always bad news.
But If I have to bring out my weapon, I won't be the one surprised by it.
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Actually, I hate surprises. They are almost always bad news.
But If I have to bring out my weapon, I won't be the one surprised by it.
I should amend that: I love dishing out surprises. That's why Mrs. Liberty's .380 is a pretty little pink thing. Surprise!
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What did they do before Ritalin? Well, boys dropped out and went to work in construction. (Or, whatever)
Or the principal and teacher beat the carp out of them with paddles until the kid stopped going to school. Damn few teachers and administrators were smart enough to recognize that most of those children were way above the curve in intelligence and were bored to distraction. Another thing that I recall that teachers did with those students, especially in Catholic schools, was tie them to their chairs and tape their mouths shut. Boy that sure taught them!
Those that haven't lived with the situation, had a child with it , really haven't got a clue.
@Sanguine
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While I was in Elem. & HS,, many male teachers were WWII vets. They calmly but firmly carried themselves with the air of authority.
In HS the Vice Principal meted out punishment, with the well-known paddle. For any fight, BOTH sides got the paddle.
Promoting kids one grade forward, was used to provide a greater challenge.
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Or the principal and teacher beat the carp out of them with paddles until the kid stopped going to school. Damn few teachers and administrators were smart enough to recognize that most of those children were way above the curve in intelligence and were bored to distraction. Another thing that I recall that teachers did with those students, especially in Catholic schools, was tie them to their chairs and tape their mouths shut. Boy that sure taught them!
Those that haven't lived with the situation, had a child with it , really haven't got a clue.
@Sanguine
Oh, I know. I completely agree.
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Or the principal and teacher beat the carp out of them with paddles until the kid stopped going to school. Damn few teachers and administrators were smart enough to recognize that most of those children were way above the curve in intelligence and were bored to distraction. Another thing that I recall that teachers did with those students, especially in Catholic schools, was tie them to their chairs and tape their mouths shut. Boy that sure taught them!
Those that haven't lived with the situation, had a child with it , really haven't got a clue.
@Sanguine
Yeah! I was one of them and I'll take the paddlings over being drugged any time!
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Yeah! I was one of them and I'll take the paddlings over being drugged any time!
@Bigun
Oh I dunno, the one time in my life I had good drugs ( I was in the hospital), it made all the lady nurses extremely hot. They could paddle me anytime.
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@Bigun
Oh I dunno, the one time in my life I had good drugs ( I was in the hospital), it made all the lady nurses extremely hot. They could paddle me anytime.
Too bad. They weren't about to paddle you because you wanted it too much. :laugh:
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@Bigun
Oh I dunno, the one time in my life I had good drugs ( I was in the hospital), it made all the lady nurses extremely hot. They could paddle me anytime.
@driftdiver
Yeah! It sucks! When you don't want a paddling they are a dime a dozen! When you really really want one you can't get it for any price!