Author Topic: Ukraine 4  (Read 223970 times)

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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1575 on: September 16, 2023, 12:37:24 pm »
Join The Reagan Caucus: https://reagancaucus.org/ and the Eisenhower Caucus: https://EisenhowerCaucus.org

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1576 on: September 16, 2023, 01:26:18 pm »
...
Congratulations...you and Joe Biden are on the same side on this one.

Hope you're proud of yourselves.

A stopped clock is correct twice a day. Unthinking knee-jerk opposition is a clock without hands.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1577 on: September 16, 2023, 01:38:05 pm »

Here's a novel thought...you can support the Ukranian people in their fight and still despise the corrupt government stealing our money.

OK, if the Ukrainian government is so very corrupt - contrary to the data I linked above - where are the "Ukrainian people" getting the equipment and munitions to fight off the Russians? Ukraine factories didn't produce those US Army artillery pieces and shells that are hitting the Russians. Ukrainian factories didn't produce USAF HARM missiles that are hitting Russian SAM radars. Ukrainian factories didn't produce US Army TOW and Stinger missiles that are hitting the Russian tanks, helicopters, and planes. Using simple cause-and-effect reasoning, all that equipment and munitions - and more than I care to list, from more countries than I care to list - hitting the Russian means that the corruption you want to believe in is not happening.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1578 on: September 16, 2023, 01:48:55 pm »
I'm not on Putin's side either.  This "either you're with us or you're against us" knee jerk response is something I'd expect from a Democrat.
..

The choices are to support Ukraine as we have been or stopping that support. It's an either-or choice. Thinking about cutting off Ukraine, as some advocate, cui bono? Who benefits? The outcome is almost predictable. Russia has far more people, and even if reduced to using cranky ancient T-34s, Russia would overrun Ukraine. The Ukrainian government you hate? Dead. The people of Ukraine? Putin will make the Holodomor look like a deposit in a house purchase. Putin benefits if the US and EuroLand abandon Ukraine. Thinking farther ahead, in a very few years it would be Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania on Putin's target list. Or maybe one of the Caucasian or Central Asian countries.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1579 on: September 16, 2023, 02:07:38 pm »
If you feel the need to twist yourself into a pretzel to deny what Zelensky was subtly hinting at...that's on you.

I'm sorry you've drank so deeply from the Blue and Yellow Kool-Aid.


What's really sad is to see so many people...Trump supporters...Libertarians...Reagan conservatives etc...who applauded Trump for not starting any new wars during his Presidency...grabbing the pom poms and donning the cheerleader skirts for Ukraine.


Congratulations...you and Joe Biden are on the same side on this one.

Hope you're proud of yourselves.

@txradioguy

You need to check a globe. Ukraine is NOT a part of the United States.

You also need a logic check because in MY mind,it is better to have Ukranians fighting to preserve Ukraine as an independent nation than it is to see the Soviet Empire expand  and become more powerful.

BUT.....,for all I know,you might be able to put on your magic slippers and pick up your magic wand,and dance the dangers of Communist expansion away.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1580 on: September 16, 2023, 02:50:20 pm »
The choices are to support Ukraine as we have been or stopping that support. It's an either-or choice. Thinking about cutting off Ukraine, as some advocate, cui bono? Who benefits? The outcome is almost predictable. Russia has far more people, and even if reduced to using cranky ancient T-34s, Russia would overrun Ukraine. The Ukrainian government you hate? Dead. The people of Ukraine? Putin will make the Holodomor look like a deposit in a house purchase. Putin benefits if the US and EuroLand abandon Ukraine. Thinking farther ahead, in a very few years it would be Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania on Putin's target list. Or maybe one of the Caucasian or Central Asian countries.

Who benefits and is profiting from the $75BILLION that has already been given to Ukraine? Certainly that money has not stopped the war; a war keep in mind that has been on going for decades (that includes pre-Zelenskyy).  Both the Ukranian people and Russian people are suffering.

Different leaders of different territories have affected and/or influenced the conflict that we are seeing today, with modern day grifters such as Zelenskyy and Poroshenko having a huge impact both humanitarianly and financially.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leaders_of_Ukraine

------------------------
 
Zelensky 'embezzled' over $400 million of aid money sent to Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_2kfZKtSRg

https://time.com/6243285/zelenskys-cash-haul/

https://www.daily-sun.com/printversion/details/684679/Zelensky-and-team-stole--400m-of-US-aid

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

---------------

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-crossroads-europe-and-russia

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/russia-and-ukraine-the-tangled-history-that-connects-and-divides-them

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/26/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tensions-timeline.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/3/27/history-illustrated-russia-and-ukraine-a-history-of-violence

---------------

Glenn Beck:


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwGyKVLmaEtBs65SJBVs5XmEBFfQSiqw1
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1581 on: September 16, 2023, 03:29:40 pm »
Who benefits and is profiting from the $75BILLION that has already been given to Ukraine? Certainly that money has not stopped the war; a war keep in mind that has been on going for decades (that includes pre-Zelenskyy).  Both the Ukranian people and Russian people are suffering.

Different leaders of different territories have affected and/or influenced the conflict that we are seeing today, with modern day grifters such as Zelenskyy and Poroshenko having a huge impact both humanitarianly and financially.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leaders_of_Ukraine

------------------------
 
Zelensky 'embezzled' over $400 million of aid money sent to Ukraine

A claim made by Seymour Hersch without offering a scintilla of evidence to back it up.  Nothing.  Zip.  Nada.  Just another baseless claim.

Here is the original posting:  https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/trading-with-the-enemy

The first two paragraphs offer the claim, while the remainder of the piece pretends that the claim was never made.

Again, we would like to see evidence.  Repetition of a claim does not constitute evidence.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1582 on: September 16, 2023, 03:31:53 pm »
It is also quite telling that Russia did not jump on board with this claim until after it was made.  If Russia indeed was selling diesel fuel to Zelenskiy at a discount, don't you think Russia would have broken that story instead of the guy who also claimed (without evidence) that Norway blew up the Nord Stream pipeline?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1583 on: September 16, 2023, 03:56:25 pm »
https://time.com/6243285/zelenskys-cash-haul/

No corruption mentioned.


https://www.daily-sun.com/printversion/details/684679/Zelensky-and-team-stole--400m-of-US-aid

Repeating Hersh's claim, again without providing any evidence of support.



https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

Refers to events that occurred before Zelenskiy was elected President.



https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-crossroads-europe-and-russia

No corruption mentioned other than that of Viktor Yanukovych.  But it did do a good job of explaining how Russia has been the aggressor since 2014, contrary to what RiV has claimed.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/26/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tensions-timeline.html

Zelenskiy is mentioned once, here:

April 2019 — A former comedian, Volodymyr Zelensky, is elected by a large majority as president of Ukraine on a promise to make peace with Russia and restore Donbas to the country.


https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/3/27/history-illustrated-russia-and-ukraine-a-history-of-violence

Zelenskiy not mentioned.


@libertybele  -  Again, do you or do you not have any evidence that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy is corrupt?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1584 on: September 16, 2023, 04:08:16 pm »
No corruption mentioned.

Repeating Hersh's claim, again without providing any evidence of support.

Refers to events that occurred before Zelenskiy was elected President.

No corruption mentioned other than that of Viktor Yanukovych.  But it did do a good job of explaining how Russia has been the aggressor since 2014, contrary to what RiV has claimed.

Zelenskiy is mentioned once, here:

April 2019 — A former comedian, Volodymyr Zelensky, is elected by a large majority as president of Ukraine on a promise to make peace with Russia and restore Donbas to the country.

Zelenskiy not mentioned.

@libertybele  -  Again, do you or do you not have any evidence that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy is corrupt?

Well fisked. Clickbait article headlines are just that, claims that fit what the editors think a large percentage of their readers want to believe, for articles that fail to support the clickbait claims. When a headline seems too perfect, read the article. The too-perfect headline is probably exaggerated or simply false. Would that only Lib/Prog sources like Slime magazine, the New York Slimes, or Washington Compost were the only ones using clickbait lies and exaggeration.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1585 on: September 16, 2023, 04:08:48 pm »
No corruption mentioned.


Repeating Hersh's claim, again without providing any evidence of support.



Refers to events that occurred before Zelenskiy was elected President.



No corruption mentioned other than that of Viktor Yanukovych.  But it did do a good job of explaining how Russia has been the aggressor since 2014, contrary to what RiV has claimed.


Zelenskiy is mentioned once, here:

April 2019 — A former comedian, Volodymyr Zelensky, is elected by a large majority as president of Ukraine on a promise to make peace with Russia and restore Donbas to the country.


Zelenskiy not mentioned.


@libertybele  -  Again, do you or do you not have any evidence that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy is corrupt?


Sounds just like the Dems who are screaming "THERE'S NO PROOF" when it comes to Hunter and Joe Biden's obvious corruption.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1586 on: September 16, 2023, 04:33:57 pm »
No corruption mentioned.


Repeating Hersh's claim, again without providing any evidence of support.



Refers to events that occurred before Zelenskiy was elected President.



No corruption mentioned other than that of Viktor Yanukovych.  But it did do a good job of explaining how Russia has been the aggressor since 2014, contrary to what RiV has claimed.


Zelenskiy is mentioned once, here:

April 2019 — A former comedian, Volodymyr Zelensky, is elected by a large majority as president of Ukraine on a promise to make peace with Russia and restore Donbas to the country.


Zelenskiy not mentioned.


@libertybele  -  Again, do you or do you not have any evidence that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy is corrupt?

Do we have any true, pure evidence other than what has bee reported that Z is corrupt -- of course not. Similar to no true pure evidence other than what has been reported about Brandon. To me, it is obvious, in my humblest of opinions that BOTH are corrupt! I don't believe Zelenskyy is killing his own people and blaming it on Russia as his predecessor did.

The history before Zelenskyy is what I tried to quickly provide; this isn't a war that is recent. Under Zelenskyy is one part of history, under other leaders, the war and struggle over territory has been going on for decades.  That is my point as to why I believe that this is NOT our war.

It has been noted several times that Brandon gave Z money BEFORE Putin's escalation and attacks with Brandon predicting that Putin would escalate a war.  So -- what to think?  That all of a sudden Putin just decided to escalate the war or was he prodded and taunted?  Do we have absolute proof that Brandon instigated this current conflict?  No, however chain of events indicates that he has his hands in the cookie jar.  Z has profited as well.

I am NOT against helping Ukraine, but supporting their war is what I am against, especially with now appx. $100 BILLION given; whether it be in arms, munition, or humanitarian aid.

If you watch ALL of Becks videos and if you accept that the territory that is now Ukraine has changed many times over decades, that picture tells a much broader story. A history story before NATO existed and Putin. 

The conflict over Ukraine (regardless of Russia involvement) has been ongoing for decades as history shows.  That cannot be
disputed, unless you disagree with the history of Ukraine's changing boundaries.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1587 on: September 16, 2023, 05:34:55 pm »
Do we have any true, pure evidence other than what has bee reported that Z is corrupt -- of course not.

Let's not limit this to "true" or "pure" evidence.  The fact is that you have no evidence at all.  None.  Zip.  Nada.


Similar to no true pure evidence other than what has been reported about Brandon.

Au contraire.  We have Biden's own testimony stating that he used the threat of withholding US taxpayer money to coax Ukraine into firing a prosecutor investigating his son.  We have mountains of cash being funneled through front companies.  And then there is the matter of unpaid taxes.  Not to mention the emails, the joint trips, the meetings, the contacts.  And of course there is the sworn testimony of witnesses who have actual names and identities.  That is quite a contrast when compared to 'nothing'.


The history before Zelenskyy is what I tried to quickly provide; this isn't a war that is recent. Under Zelenskyy is one part of history, under other leaders, the war and struggle over territory has been going on for decades.  That is my point as to why I believe that this is NOT our war.

This history has been posted ad nauseum on each of the Ukraine threads, typically each time that RiV tried to invent her own history.  It is odd that you side with her considering that her version of events contradicts what you posted.


It has been noted several times that Brandon gave Z money BEFORE Putin's escalation and attacks with Brandon predicting that Putin would escalate a war.

Your implication is patently false.  If anything, Biden delayed money that had already been promised in the past.  All of those transfers that were announced after the 2021 invasion were several months behind schedule.  Also, how is Zelenskiy to blame for Russia's invasion as well as Biden's inactions?


So -- what to think?  That all of a sudden Putin just decided to escalate the war or was he prodded and taunted?  Do we have absolute proof that Brandon instigated this current conflict?  No, however chain of events indicates that he has his hands in the cookie jar.

Putin decided to escalate this war based on the weakness that Biden displayed in the Afghan debacle.  Again, that has nothing to do with Zelenskiy.


Z has profited as well.

How so?  Do you have any evidence to support this claim?  Or are you again abandoning any semblance of reason, and reverting to 'feelings' instead?


I am NOT against helping Ukraine, but supporting their war is what I am against, especially with now appx. $100 BILLION given; whether it be in arms, munition, or humanitarian aid.

I am in favor of supporting an end to this war as well as strongly discouraging the next one.


If you watch ALL of Becks videos and if you accept that the territory that is now Ukraine has changed many times over decades, that picture tells a much broader story. A history story before NATO existed and Putin.

None of those justify Russia's actions, or controvert Ukraine's right to sovereignty.





The conflict over Ukraine (regardless of Russia involvement) has been ongoing for decades as history shows.  That cannot be
disputed, unless you disagree with the history of Ukraine's changing boundaries.

Bringing history into it further justifies Ukraine's defense and Russia's ostracism.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1588 on: September 16, 2023, 06:53:22 pm »
If you feel the need to twist yourself into a pretzel to deny what Zelensky was subtly hinting at...that's on you.

I'm sorry you've drank so deeply from the Blue and Yellow Kool-Aid.


What's really sad is to see so many people...Trump supporters...Libertarians...Reagan conservatives etc...who applauded Trump for not starting any new wars during his Presidency...grabbing the pom poms and donning the cheerleader skirts for Ukraine.


Congratulations...you and Joe Biden are on the same side on this one.

Hope you're proud of yourselves.
Well, you have to admit, there hasn't been a hell of a lot to root for in the past few years. People are desperate... :shrug:

The idea that they are helping someone, somewhere, keep/get invaders out appeals viscerally, especially when this administration has all but torn down the border wall and sent golden engraved invitations to the world to just walk into the US--a State sponsored invasion, sponsored by OUR state...

with our money...

to our detriment...

at our social and cultural expense...

By corrupt B@$t@rd$ who have ignored their oaths of office and the people they allegedly serve.

It's all part of that fundamental transformation crap, and there are those on both sides of the aisle who are benefiting while Americans eat dirt.

I'd wager there are tens of thousands of Americans who dream of going to our border and defending it, and in some way, they vicariously temper that desire by supporting Ukraine.



How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1589 on: September 16, 2023, 08:56:06 pm »

Sounds just like the Dems who are screaming "THERE'S NO PROOF" when it comes to Hunter and Joe Biden's obvious corruption.

The links are right there for you.  Why don't you do her work for her and find anything (other than an unfounded claim) that would indicate Zelenskiy corruption?  So be my guest and have at it.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1590 on: September 16, 2023, 09:55:21 pm »
Summations, but no credible proof. That goes for Brandon as well. Several polls reveal Ukranians think that Z is corrupt. So -- should we continue to give him BILLIONS more? That's absolutely ridiculous.

If you want to believe that Z is all shiny and wonderful, that's certainly your choice, but the amount of $$ he's received should have raised eyebrows a long time ago, certainly amongst his own people, it has.

Zelenskyy fires recruitment officials for accepting $10,000 bribes. Almost all Ukrainians think the country has a problem with corruption, survey suggests.

https://www.businessinsider.com/corruption-in-ukraine-zelenskyy-is-responsible-says-national-survey-2023-8

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/20258
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline ScottinVA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1591 on: September 16, 2023, 10:31:44 pm »

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1592 on: September 16, 2023, 10:40:46 pm »
Summations, but no credible proof.

Not a summation.  Just a claim.  A summation requires a conclusive argument after evidence is presented. 

Also, it's not "credible proof" that is lacking here.  It is the presence of any proof at all.


Several polls reveal Ukranians think that Z is corrupt.

A poll put Barabbas back on the street and nailed Jesus to a cross.  And a poll makes a very poor substitute for actual evidence.


So -- should we continue to give him BILLIONS more? That's absolutely ridiculous.

The argument of not provide support for Ukraine can be made without slandering Zelenskiy.  There's really no need to make up bullshit about him being corrupt.


If you want to believe that Z is all shiny and wonderful, that's certainly your choice

I don't.  But I do admire him for standing firm while Russian units were pushing to surround Kyiv while Putin assassination squads were probing entry into the city at the start of the invasion.   For a corrupt leader, Zelenskiy certainly acted out of character.  Your typical corrupt politician would have loaded a helicopter full of cash and fled the country.  But Zelenskiy stayed in Kyiv while the whole world predicted that Ukraine would fall within a couple of weeks.

I keep an open mind, which is why I reviewed all of your links.  If Zelenskiy is corrupt, then I will gladly call him out for it.  But I have to see some evidence first.


but the amount of $$ he's received should have raised eyebrows a long time ago, certainly amongst his own people, it has.

Sure, it raised my eyebrows.  I have been loudly complaining about it since Day One.  But you'll have to take that up with Joe Biden.  When Zelenskiy asked for MiGs, Biden blocked it.  When Zelenskiy asked for artillery, Biden delayed it for months.  When Zelenskiy asked for armor, Biden used it as an opportunity to syphon off cash to the Defense Department while sending obsolete M-113s to Ukraine.  Just look at these so-called 'aid' packages.  They entail cash payments to the State Dept, USAID, and the Defense Department.  The last of which pockets the money while sending old equipment, and does not replace any of it.  Is that Zelenskiy's fault?  Is it Ukraine's fault?  No.  It is the fault of the real corrupt leader here, Joe Biden.   


Zelenskyy fires recruitment officials for accepting $10,000 bribes. Almost all Ukrainians think the country has a problem with corruption, survey suggests.

https://www.businessinsider.com/corruption-in-ukraine-zelenskyy-is-responsible-says-national-survey-2023-8

Zelenskiy rooting out corruption and getting rid of corrupt officials?  Go figure.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1593 on: September 16, 2023, 10:53:07 pm »
A poll put Barabbas back on the street and nailed Jesus to a cross.  And a poll makes a very poor substitute for actual evidence.
Please don't try to analogize Jesus Christ and Zelenskyy. It's repulsive.
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1594 on: September 16, 2023, 10:59:10 pm »
Please don't try to analogize Jesus Christ and Zelenskyy. It's repulsive.

Yes, you can get an "Amen" out of that one!
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1595 on: September 16, 2023, 11:01:11 pm »
Ukraine's Crimea attacks seen as key to counter-offensive against Russia

This week saw spectacular Ukrainian attacks on the Crimean Peninsula, hitting Russian warships and missiles.

Estimates of the damage done ran into billions of pounds and raised the question: is Ukraine getting ready to retake Crimea, which Russia annexed in 2014?

Crimea is a Russian fortress, so it is important not to get carried away.

"The strategy has two main goals," says Oleksandr Musiienko, from Kyiv's Centre for Military and Legal Studies.

"To establish dominance in the north-western Black Sea and to weaken Russian logistical opportunities for their defence lines in the south, near Tokmak and Melitopol."

In other words, operations in Crimea go hand-in-glove with Ukraine's counter-offensive in the south.

"They depend on each other," Musiienko says.

Let's look at Ukraine's recent successes in Crimea.

On Wednesday, long-range cruise missiles, supplied by the UK and France, dealt a heavy blow to Russia's much-vaunted Black Sea fleet at its home port of Sevastopol.

On Friday, Britain's Ministry of Defence said a large amphibious landing ship, the Minsk, had "almost certainly been functionally destroyed".

Next to it, one of Russia's Kilo class diesel-electric submarines, the Rostov-on-Don - used to launch Kalibr cruise missiles hundreds of miles into Ukraine - had "likely suffered catastrophic damage".

Perhaps equally importantly the dry docks - vital for maintenance of the entire Black Sea fleet - would likely be out of use "for many months", the ministry said.

On Saturday, Ukraine offered tantalising new details.

It said special forces had played a key role, using boats and an unspecified "underwater delivery means" to get ashore, before using "special technical assets" to help identify and target the vessels.

But with the fires barely out in Sevastopol there were more dramatic night-time explosions as Ukraine blew up one of Russia's most modern air defence systems, an S-400, around 40 miles (64km) north at Yevpatoria.

This was another sophisticated operation that used a combination of drones and Ukrainian-made Neptune missiles to confuse and destroy a key component of Russia's air defences on the Crimean Peninsula.

A significant side note: Russian attempts to use exactly this technique over Kyiv have generally failed, largely thanks to the presence of US Patriot interceptor missiles.

Thursday was the second time in less than a month that Ukraine has knocked out an S-400 surface-to-air missile system on the peninsula.

On 23 August, at Olenivka, on the western tip of the Tarkhankut Peninsula, Ukraine managed to destroy another launcher and a nearby radar station.

Russia was thought to have not more than six S-400 launchers in Crimea. Now it has lost two. ..................

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66829826
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1596 on: September 16, 2023, 11:01:20 pm »
Please don't try to analogize Jesus Christ and Zelenskyy. It's repulsive.

I didn't.  I was pointing out that polls should not drive government policy.  Zelenskiy isn't Jesus.  And Poroshenko isn't Barabbas.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1597 on: September 17, 2023, 01:32:28 pm »
Please don't try to analogize Jesus Christ and Zelenskyy. It's repulsive.

@Hoodat gave an extreme example of mob/poll action, not "analogizing" Zelensky and Jesus. Hoodat's point was quite obvious, but I can understand wanting to divert from it.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1598 on: September 17, 2023, 01:39:51 pm »
I'm not on Putin's side either.  This "either you're with us or you're against us" knee jerk response is something I'd expect from a Democrat.

I'm ashamed of nothing...because it's possible to not like Putin AND not like the Zelensky grift at the same time.

No, actually, in this case it pretty much is a binary choice.

And the only provable relationship Zelensky has to corruption is that he continues to fight corruption in his government, despite the fact that they're fighting an existential fight against the Russian Orcs.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1599 on: September 17, 2023, 01:41:18 pm »
Summations, but no credible proof. That goes for Brandon as well. Several polls reveal Ukranians think that Z is corrupt. So -- should we continue to give him BILLIONS more? That's absolutely ridiculous.

If you want to believe that Z is all shiny and wonderful, that's certainly your choice, but the amount of $$ he's received should have raised eyebrows a long time ago, certainly amongst his own people, it has.

Zelenskyy fires recruitment officials for accepting $10,000 bribes. Almost all Ukrainians think the country has a problem with corruption, survey suggests.

https://www.businessinsider.com/corruption-in-ukraine-zelenskyy-is-responsible-says-national-survey-2023-8

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/20258


"Several polls reveal that Zelensky is corrupt?"

WADR, what sort of nonsense is that?  Many polls in the period 2016 to 2020 "revealed" that Trump was colluding with Russia, then.