Author Topic: Ukraine 4  (Read 224470 times)

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1450 on: September 03, 2023, 04:18:14 am »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1451 on: September 03, 2023, 11:14:47 am »
@Kamaji
That made me chuckle. I am "the Joos" ... dumbass.
אני אוהב אותך

Self-hatred ill-becomes you, then.  But, that seems to be a pernicious virus that infects most Jewish communities in the US. 

Online kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1452 on: September 03, 2023, 12:54:06 pm »
Join The Reagan Caucus: https://reagancaucus.org/ and the Eisenhower Caucus: https://EisenhowerCaucus.org

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1453 on: September 03, 2023, 01:13:45 pm »
With the majority of weapons production outside of Ukraine, striking civilian populations does nothing but cause suffering and terror. It also consumes Russian weapons without military benefit.

The Russians are going to own this horror for many decades to come. They're going to go down in the history books as little different than the NAZIs.

1. Ukraine knows it is battling an enemy with superior - in numbers and quantity of arms - forces. It has to use its men and arms with care. The Russians, OTOH, have been profligate and sloppy, and show a willingness to kill civilians for the sake of causing terror.

2. Stalin was a worse monster than Hitler, though he had a much larger nation to afflict and about 2 1/2 time the number of years in which to do it. Adding together Putin's adventure in Syria, war against Georgia, and two invasions of Ukraine, Putin may not rival Stalin or Hitler for monstrosity, but he is trying. Stalin's power over Russia had been largely secured by Lenin; Putin started in a much less secure position and had to be more cautious while securing his power.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1454 on: September 03, 2023, 01:41:39 pm »
Thanks for the map, @Hoodat! It illustrates very simply what I've tried to describe rather verbosely. Ukraine has "only" a 10-12 Km (7-7.5 miles) salient, but: it is into the teeth of prepared defense lines, having penetrated at least one line; it has been broadened, so as to make pinching off the salient and trapping Ukrainian troops difficult; the point of the salient is broad and "just" ~55 miles from the Black Sea Coast (and even closer to the main highway the Russians need to supply this front and reinforce/supply the Crimean Peninsula).

It's interesting that the Russians seem to have concentrated their elite forces along the highway between Novoprokopivka and Tokmak. The area between Novoprokopivka and Verbove seem less well manned - it looks like open country lacking a main road - which could permit a flank attack on those elite forces.

Much as Ukraine-haters and -skeptics want to believe Ukraine's offensive has "failed" (per trust fund lawyer RFK Jr., "utterly failed") or "bogged down", it is actually advancing with hard fighting through prepared defense lines.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1455 on: September 03, 2023, 08:34:59 pm »
Thanks for the map, @Hoodat! It illustrates very simply what I've tried to describe rather verbosely. Ukraine has "only" a 10-12 Km (7-7.5 miles) salient, but: it is into the teeth of prepared defense lines, having penetrated at least one line; it has been broadened, so as to make pinching off the salient and trapping Ukrainian troops difficult; the point of the salient is broad and "just" ~55 miles from the Black Sea Coast (and even closer to the main highway the Russians need to supply this front and reinforce/supply the Crimean Peninsula).

It's interesting that the Russians seem to have concentrated their elite forces along the highway between Novoprokopivka and Tokmak. The area between Novoprokopivka and Verbove seem less well manned - it looks like open country lacking a main road - which could permit a flank attack on those elite forces.

Much as Ukraine-haters and -skeptics want to believe Ukraine's offensive has "failed" (per trust fund lawyer RFK Jr., "utterly failed") or "bogged down", it is actually advancing with hard fighting through prepared defense lines.

:thumbsup:

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1456 on: September 04, 2023, 12:50:11 am »
Zelensky moves to fire Ukraine's defense minister

Rebecca Falconer  |  3 hrs ago


Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky announced Sunday plans to replace Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov because he said "new approaches" were needed.

Driving the news: Zelensky said in a televised address the country's Parliament would vote this week on whether to dismiss Reznikov, who's led the ministry since before Russia's military launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. "I expect the Parliament to support" nominee Rustem Umerov, who runs Ukraine's State Property Fund, Zelensky said.

The big picture: There has been a wave of dismissals in Ukraine's defense ministry in recent months linked to a corruption scandal.

  • Reznikov has not been directly implicated mishandling of military contracts, but there had been calls for him to resign as head of the ministry due to the scandal.

  • Zelensky regards quashing corruption as a key factor in his efforts for Ukraine to join the European Union and NATO.
.  .  .

https://www.axios.com/2023/09/03/zelensky-ukraine-defense-minister
« Last Edit: September 04, 2023, 12:51:07 am by Hoodat »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1457 on: September 04, 2023, 04:07:58 am »
Russian commandos attempt landing SW of Odesa


https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1698339845926428944
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online 240B

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1458 on: September 04, 2023, 08:00:15 pm »
Self-hatred ill-becomes you, then.  But, that seems to be a pernicious virus that infects most Jewish communities in the US.
@Kamaji
Yes. I agree with you. Your comment directed at me is nonsense. But in general your comment is accepted.

Back on topic. Why did America fire-bomb Dresden? There was nothing there? Nothing?
They bombed it as a real life demonstration of raw power. Ukraine needs to bomb Moscow Electric.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2023, 08:01:24 pm by 240B »
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline berdie

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1459 on: September 04, 2023, 09:29:04 pm »
@Kamaji
Yes. I agree with you. Your comment directed at me is nonsense. But in general your comment is accepted.

Back on topic. Why did America fire-bomb Dresden? There was nothing there? Nothing?
They bombed it as a real life demonstration of raw power. Ukraine needs to bomb Moscow Electric.


I don't necessarily disagree with raw power. But weren't the chief bombers of Dresden Russia and the RAF? And from what I have read, that was the last refuge of the Third Reich so there might have been a reason.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2023, 09:30:42 pm by berdie »

Online 240B

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1460 on: September 04, 2023, 09:51:53 pm »

I don't necessarily disagree with raw power. But weren't the chief bombers of Dresden Russia and the RAF? And from what I have read, that was the last refuge of the Third Reich so there might have been a reason.
There is no reason to justify. It was nothing but pure 'brutality'. And that is what was needed and called for in time of war.
War is not a parlour game.
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline berdie

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1461 on: September 04, 2023, 10:11:30 pm »
There is no reason to justify. It was nothing but pure 'brutality'. And that is what was needed and called for in time of war.
War is not a parlour game.


Not justifying at all.  happy77 But it seems to me that in today's warfare rules things that affect civilians are not acceptable. For instance, much of what Russia has done is not against military targets. I have seen articles branding them as war criminals. Not that I think Ukraine is unwilling (perhaps unable) that might put them in the same boat and turn worldwide public and Russian civilian support against them.

Although I agree with you, it doesn't seem to be the way of modern warfare. Myself...if it's gonna be you or me, it's gonna be me. However, nobody at this point has called me to offer me a generalship.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1462 on: September 05, 2023, 12:27:27 pm »
Mark Galeotti, Ukraine's counter-offensive against Russia is working

By MILO POPE
5 September 2023

Yesterday morning, I received a revealing text message from an American general. ‘I think I spoke too soon and was too downbeat,’ he wrote. He was referring to a conversation we’d had a fortnight ago, in which he gloomily told me there was little chance of a meaningful advance by Ukrainian troops against their Russian invaders before next spring.

As his subsequent text message acknowledged, however, today the landscape looks rather different. Yesterday, we learned that following three months of fierce fighting and weeks of painstaking mine clearance, Ukrainian forces have decisively breached Russia ’s first defensive line near Zaporizhzhia in the south-east of the country. This is not only a major military breakthrough that could, in time, split Russia’s occupied territory in two. It is also a sharp rebuttal to recent anonymous grumbles from some quarters of the international military and political community about Ukrainian fighting tactics being less than efficient.

Among the pessimistic voices were those in the German Ministry of Defence who suggested Ukrainian troops were not using the Nato tactics they had been taught. Meanwhile in Washington there were whispers that senior Ukrainian officers were being too ‘casualty-averse’ truly to succeed. Neither of these criticisms is remotely fair. Nato tactics are largely based on an assumption of air and artillery superiority, which Ukraine does not have. And while Kyiv’s 70,000-strong death toll falls short of Russia’s 120,000 dead, it must be seen in the context of the latter’s vast population – thrice that of its smaller neighbor. Proportionately, Ukraine’s losses are far worse: their bravery has been exemplary and they are only as ‘casualty-averse’ as the theatre of war demands.

So the timing of this breakthrough is crucial. The mood among many Western commentators has been notably defeatist of late, with even talk of the need to negotiate with the tyrant Vladimir Putin. Certain Western governments, too, have been weakening in their willingness to offer aid to the Ukrainians. In Washington, a presidential election is looming, and officials on Capitol Hill are keenly aware that most Americans’ minds are on domestic issues. Europe, too, is facing spiralling energy and living costs, and voters are finding foreign aid a much harder sell. Yet the simple fact is that alongside Western tanks and artillery, our billions in financial aid have kept Ukraine’s economy on life support.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/galleries/article-12482299/Mark-Galeotti-Ukraines-counter-offensive-against-Russia-working.html

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1463 on: September 05, 2023, 12:30:17 pm »
There is no reason to justify. It was nothing but pure 'brutality'. And that is what was needed and called for in time of war.
War is not a parlour game.

Dresden was a joint RAF/US operation.

The Allied commanders realized, after Dresden, that they had come perilously close to committing possible war crimes, and that the justifications for the bombing were, pardon the pun, paper thin:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Wartime_political_responses

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1464 on: September 05, 2023, 12:46:12 pm »
Russia claims footage shows first evidence of a destroyed British Challenger 2 tank in Ukraine

The MoD has until now claimed the tank has 'never suffered losses' in combat

By JAMES REYNOLDS  and WILL STEWART
5 September 2023

Russian sources today claimed to have the first evidence of a destroyed British-supplied Challenger 2 tank in Ukraine.

A video circulating online appears to show one of the 82nd Air Assault Brigade's former main battle tanks on fire near Robotyne, Zaporizhzhia Oblast.

The footage is shot from a Ukrainian vehicle with a cracked windscreen, driving past the wreckage of an armoured vehicle as plumes of black smoke spill out.

Pro-war channel Grey Zone reported: 'It seems to be the first documented destroyed British Challenger 2 tank in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine.'

There was no independent confirmation of the Russian claim about the burning tank, nor its location and timing.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12481763/Russia-claims-footage-shows-evidence-destroyed-British-Challenger-2-tank-Ukraine.html

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1465 on: September 05, 2023, 12:46:56 pm »
Russia claims footage shows first evidence of a destroyed British Challenger 2 tank in Ukraine

The MoD has until now claimed the tank has 'never suffered losses' in combat

By JAMES REYNOLDS  and WILL STEWART
5 September 2023

Russian sources today claimed to have the first evidence of a destroyed British-supplied Challenger 2 tank in Ukraine.

A video circulating online appears to show one of the 82nd Air Assault Brigade's former main battle tanks on fire near Robotyne, Zaporizhzhia Oblast.

The footage is shot from a Ukrainian vehicle with a cracked windscreen, driving past the wreckage of an armoured vehicle as plumes of black smoke spill out.

Pro-war channel Grey Zone reported: 'It seems to be the first documented destroyed British Challenger 2 tank in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine.'

There was no independent confirmation of the Russian claim about the burning tank, nor its location and timing.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12481763/Russia-claims-footage-shows-evidence-destroyed-British-Challenger-2-tank-Ukraine.html

I'm not sure why that's such a big thing - one whole tank is to be expected by now, if not more.  I guess the Orcs and their supporters are really grasping at straws.

Online mountaineer

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1466 on: September 05, 2023, 01:10:54 pm »
This coming from the Cuban government, take it with a grain of salt.
Quote
Cuba uncovers human trafficking of Cubans to fight for Russia in Ukraine
Reuters
September 4, 202310:40 PM EDT Updated 10 hours ago

HAVANA, Sept 4 (Reuters) - Cuba has uncovered a human trafficking ring that has coerced its citizens to fight for Russia in the war in Ukraine, its foreign ministry said on Monday, adding that Cuban authorities were working to "neutralize and dismantle" the network.

The statement from Cuba's foreign ministry gave few details, but noted the trafficking ring was operating both within the Caribbean island nation, thousands of miles from Moscow, and in Russia. ...
Reuters
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Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1467 on: September 05, 2023, 02:20:08 pm »
I'm not sure why that's such a big thing - one whole tank is to be expected by now, if not more.  I guess the Orcs and their supporters are really grasping at straws.

One propaganda technique is to generalize from some highly visible symbol. Along similar lines, some conservatives want to believe that all of SF is like the Tenderloin and the BART corridor or all of California is like SF or Berserkeley. Back on-topic, the Russians want people to think that one destroyed Challenger 2 means all are useless. The same propaganda tactic was deployed a few months ago when a group of German Leopard 1s were used poorly and destroyed. The big picture, though is that at present the orcs are fighting hard, but are advancing to the rear toward the shore of the Black Sea.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1468 on: September 05, 2023, 02:24:15 pm »
One propaganda technique is to generalize from some highly visible symbol. Along similar lines, some conservatives want to believe that all of SF is like the Tenderloin and the BART corridor or all of California is like SF or Berserkeley. Back on-topic, the Russians want people to think that one destroyed Challenger 2 means all are useless. The same propaganda tactic was deployed a few months ago when a group of German Leopard 1s were used poorly and destroyed. The big picture, though is that at present the orcs are fighting hard, but are advancing to the rear toward the shore of the Black Sea.

:thumbsup:

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1469 on: September 05, 2023, 02:27:00 pm »
This coming from the Cuban government, take it with a grain of salt.Reuters

A block of salt might be appropriate. I think Cuba has been a bit less slavish toward Russia in the years since the fall of the USSR and the deaths of the Castro brothers (e.g., Cuba's air force has a squadron or so of MiG-21s, a couple of squadrons of MiG-23s, and a few MiG-29s, i.e. mostly older and long-in-the-tooth fighters and interceptors ... I wonder how they're doing for spare parts).
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1470 on: September 05, 2023, 07:03:04 pm »
Russian general blasted in the face by bomb-rigged cellphone in failed assassination plot

By Snejana Farberov
Published Sep. 5, 2023

A Russian general was seriously injured by an exploding cellphone used in a failed assassination attempt by Ukraine’s Security Service, according to local reports.

Major-General Yuri Afanasevskii, a former chairman of the State Customs Committee of the so-called Luhansk People’s Republic controlled by Moscow-backed separatists, was blown up at his home in the occupied region Sunday.

He had been handed a bomb-rigged phone that detonated as soon as it was activated, according to Russia’s Investigative Committee.

Afanasevskii was rushed to the hospital with serious shrapnel wounds to his head, neck and stomach, sources with Ukraine’s Security Services told RBC-Ukraine.

The general’s 21-year-old son was also injured — and had to have three fingers amputated, according to the Russian state news agency Tass.

*  *  *

Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/09/05/russian-general-blown-up-by-bomb-rigged-cellphone/


Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1471 on: September 05, 2023, 07:07:42 pm »
Drone shot down near Putin’s swanky country residence outside Moscow

By Snejana Farberov
Published Sep. 5, 2023

A kamikaze drone was shot down Tuesday near President Vladimir Putin’s lavish country residence outside Moscow — the same region where Wagner Group chief Yevgeny Prigozhin’s private jet crashed last month.

Dramatic footage published by the Telegram news channel Mash captured the moment the unmanned aircraft was destroyed by Russian air defenses, lighting up the sky over the Tver region.

It was one of three suspected Ukrainian drones targeting Moscow that were neutralized Tuesday, with a fourth destroyed over Russian-annexed Crimea, the defense ministry said. 

Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin said that drone debris in the Tver region fell in the Zavidovo village, which is home to Putin’s official residence called “Rus.” During Soviet times, it was known as a Politburo hunting lodge.

Notably, the drone was downed in the same region where Wagner Group chief Yevgeny Prigozhin’s private jet crashed last month, killing all 10 people on board, exactly two months after the rogue mercenary’s short-lived mutiny.

There was no indication that Putin was at his “Rus” palace Tuesday.

Putin’s main residences are the Novo-Ogaryovo complex in the Moscow region and the Grand Kremlin Palace — where official events are held.

Air defense systems destroyed two other drones over the Kaluga region and over the Istra district of the Moscow region near the capital.

*  *  *

Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/09/05/drone-shot-down-near-putins-swanky-country-residence/

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1472 on: September 05, 2023, 07:49:24 pm »
Drone shot down near Putin’s swanky country residence outside Moscow

By Snejana Farberov
Published Sep. 5, 2023

A kamikaze drone was shot down Tuesday near President Vladimir Putin’s lavish country residence outside Moscow — the same region where Wagner Group chief Yevgeny Prigozhin’s private jet crashed last month.

Dramatic footage published by the Telegram news channel Mash captured the moment the unmanned aircraft was destroyed by Russian air defenses, lighting up the sky over the Tver region.

It was one of three suspected Ukrainian drones targeting Moscow that were neutralized Tuesday, with a fourth destroyed over Russian-annexed Crimea, the defense ministry said. 

Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin said that drone debris in the Tver region fell in the Zavidovo village, which is home to Putin’s official residence called “Rus.” During Soviet times, it was known as a Politburo hunting lodge.

Notably, the drone was downed in the same region where Wagner Group chief Yevgeny Prigozhin’s private jet crashed last month, killing all 10 people on board, exactly two months after the rogue mercenary’s short-lived mutiny.

There was no indication that Putin was at his “Rus” palace Tuesday.

Putin’s main residences are the Novo-Ogaryovo complex in the Moscow region and the Grand Kremlin Palace — where official events are held.

Air defense systems destroyed two other drones over the Kaluga region and over the Istra district of the Moscow region near the capital.

*  *  *

Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/09/05/drone-shot-down-near-putins-swanky-country-residence/
Whether those drones are effective at hitting targets or not, they keep air defense troops occupied watching for drones in Russia, and not deployed to protect Russian assets in Ukraine.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1473 on: September 05, 2023, 08:16:20 pm »
Whether those drones are effective at hitting targets or not, they keep air defense troops occupied watching for drones in Russia, and not deployed to protect Russian assets in Ukraine.

Agreed.  Given their relative inexpensiveness, they are probably a useful tool to use to keep the Orcs feeling the uncertainty, and hedging their defenses by putting more effort into home-country defense rather than offense in Ukraine.  I believe that Sun Tzu had something to say about that in his Art of War.

Online DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1474 on: September 05, 2023, 08:59:01 pm »
Fly it low enough in a city and there's going to be a lot of collateral damage from shooting at it.