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Online libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #900 on: July 11, 2023, 05:21:18 pm »
How many Russians have died in Ukraine? Data shows what Moscow hides

 Nearly 50,000 Russian men have died in the war in Ukraine, according to the first independent statistical analysis of Russia’s war dead.

Two independent Russian media outlets, Mediazona and Meduza, working with a data scientist from Germany’s Tübingen University, used Russian government data to shed light on one of Moscow’s closest-held secrets — the true human cost of its invasion of Ukraine.

To do so, they relied on a statistical concept popularized during the COVID-19 pandemic called excess mortality. Drawing on inheritance records and official mortality data, they estimated how many more men under age 50 died between February 2022 and May 2023 than normal..........

...........In February, the U.K. Ministry of Defense said approximately 40,000 to 60,000 Russians had likely been killed in the war. A leaked assessment from the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency put the number of Russians killed in action in the first year of the war at 35,000 to 43,000...............

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-military-deaths-facd75c2311ed7be660342698cf6a409

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Online Timber Rattler

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #901 on: July 11, 2023, 05:25:15 pm »
Time magazine did an article on "Zelensky's Cash Haul" -- dated, but needs to be acknowledged

https://time.com/6243285/zelenskys-cash-haul/

That article is about funding Ukraine's government and pension system, which I disapprove of using American tax dollars...that should be Europe's role.  However, it presents ZERO evidence, nor does it make the claim, that Zelensky is personally corrupt and is skimming off the top.  That's just an assumption many are making based on PAST Ukrainian presidents like Yanukovych and Poroshenko.  Zelensky won his election by a landslide on an anti-corruption platform, and he was already wealthy from his comedy and acting career. 

So that argument does not fly until we see some definite proof that he is personally profiting from the war.  To me it looks like it is wearing him down because he is visibly aging and talks with a hoarse gravelly voice now from all the meetings and phone calls he takes each day.  He looks very tired.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #902 on: July 11, 2023, 05:27:00 pm »
That article is about funding Ukraine's government and pension system, which I disapprove of using American tax dollars...that should be Europe's role.  However, it presents ZERO evidence, nor does it make the claim, that Zelensky is personally corrupt and is skimming off the top.  That's just an assumption many are making based on PAST Ukrainian presidents like Yanukovych and Poroshenko.  Zelensky won his election by a landslide on an anti-corruption platform, and he was already wealthy from his comedy and acting career. 

So that argument does not fly until we see some definite proof that he is personally profiting from the war.  To me it looks like it is wearing him down because he is visibly aging and talks with a hoarse gravelly voice now from all the meetings and phone calls he takes each day.  He looks very tired.

In fact, the Ukraine government continues to fight corruption, even during the war for its very survival against the Russian orcs:  https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/fighting-corruption-wartime-ukraine

Online Timber Rattler

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #903 on: July 11, 2023, 05:28:32 pm »
Last month -- reporting of Brandon pocketing Ukraine money --  anyone still thinks Brandon isn't funneling money to Ukraine into his pocket?

https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/joe-biden-exposed-for-allegedly-pocketing-5-million-in-ukrainian-bribery-scheme/video/a0a9ec471ed6f94e553b5296580ae7fc

That article concerns Biden's corruption BEFORE the war when he was VP and Hunter was on Burisma's board.  Where is the proof that Biden's actually siphoning money off NOW with the war aid being given to Ukraine?  I'm not saying that he isn't, but where is the PROOF?

Just more assumptions without evidence...
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Online Timber Rattler

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #904 on: July 11, 2023, 05:30:54 pm »
Both Brandon and Zelensky are lining their pockets...Z is just took over for his predecessor who Hunter and Brandon were 'involved' with.

You don't know that about Zelensky at all.  Just another knee-jerk assumption.
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Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #905 on: July 11, 2023, 07:33:38 pm »
That article concerns Biden's corruption BEFORE the war when he was VP and Hunter was on Burisma's board.  Where is the proof that Biden's actually siphoning money off NOW with the war aid being given to Ukraine?  I'm not saying that he isn't, but where is the PROOF?

Just more assumptions without evidence...

Evidence is irrelevant to Ukraine-Is-The-Most-Corrupt-Country-On-Earth True-Believers, and lack of evidence proves the conspiracy theory.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 07:34:43 pm by PeteS in CA »
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #906 on: July 11, 2023, 07:41:43 pm »
Z is just took over for his predecessor who Hunter and Brandon were 'involved' with.

@libertybele

Zelenskiy ran on an anti-corruption ticket that ran in direct opposition to Poroshenko (i.e. the predecessor who Hunter and Brandon were 'involved' with).  You really don't have a clue what you are talking about.  Remember when the American President called Zelenskiy up trying to get him to replace a prosecutor?  Did he do it?  Nope.  But Poroshenko certainly did.

If you are looking for corruption, you will find plenty of it here.  But franly, Ukraine is too busy for that right now.  They have a war to fight.  And last time I checked, Zelenskiy hasn't filled a helicopter with cash and skipped town yet, even when the Russians were bearing down on Kyiv.
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Online libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #907 on: July 11, 2023, 08:09:27 pm »
A Look Back at the History of Ukraine- Russia Conflict as Tensions Continue to Rise

Since World War II, the violent changing of European borders has been considered taboo, given the cascade of turmoil that could follow. For that reason, 2014 was, ina sense, a pivotal year, as Eastern Europe again saw borders altered by violence and the threat of force, as part of Ukraine (Crimea) was annexed by Russia. In light of continuing conflict, we look back at that disruptive event, and the continuing ramifications brought up by it.......

.........The tinder for the Ukraine conflict didn’t spontaneously come into being in 2014. Rather, the background is a slow-motion identity crisis involving both Ukraine and Russia, and extending back over centuries.

...........For Ukrainians, their identities are both linked to those of a past shared with Russia, but also with historic ties and affinities with the West. Ukraine is marked by a diversity of historical memories and orientations, and in that sense, it’s like a microcosm of larger Eastern European patterns.

The tides of history carved out divides in Ukraine that still persist today. First Mongols came and receded, leaving Tartars; then Poland-Lithuania moved in, leaving their own imprint...................

...............In 1654, the Cossack warlord Bohdan Khmelnytsky, who had led an uprising against Poland and sought to create an independent state, signed a treaty with Russia at Pereyaslav.

Khmelnytsky received the Tsar’s protection, along with Russian promises for Ukrainian autonomy. Instead of getting an ally who would defend their existence, the Cossacks discovered that they had a set of new rulers. In 1667, Poland and Russia came to an agreement for partition: They divided the contested Ukrainian lands along the Dnieper River................

.............Between the World Wars, Ukrainians found themselves divided by borders, most living in the Soviet Union, others in Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. Inside the Soviet Union, Stalin cracked down on Ukrainian cultural leaders and brought mass death with the Terror Famine, or Holodomor, of the 1930s.

With the coming of the Second World War, some Ukrainian nationalists hoped that Nazi Germany might help their cause. Among their leaders was Stepan Bandera. At the start of the Second World War, they allied with Nazi Germany and some participated in the Nazi campaigns against the Jews. But as Ukrainian hopes for independence were frustrated, relations deteriorated and the Nazis imprisoned Bandera.

Toward the end of the Second World War, borders and populations were shifted. Ukraine saw key examples of this. Stalin deported all the Crimean Tartars from their homes, expelling them overnight. Poland shifted westward, ethnic Poles were evicted from ancestral homes, and the city of Lwow became Lviv, in western Ukraine. By the end of this process, Ukraine’s borders included most Ukrainians for the first time in centuries, but all of them under Moscow’s rigid control..............

...........With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became independent. However, the newly independent Ukraine revealed complexities. Along with Russia and Belarus, Ukraine was one of the founding members of the CIS, the Commonwealth of Independent States, to the east. Yet many Ukrainian leaders avowed that they wanted to be part of an Eastern European “return to Europe,” which would mean orienting themselves to the west....................

......Corruption at multiple levels of government ate away at ordinary people’s confidence in the system, and economic productivity lagged. Ukraine found itself hugely dependent on Russia for energy supplies, some 75 percent of its gas and 80 percent of its oil. To overcome its troubles, Ukraine sought international financial aid, and giving up its nuclear stockpile left over from the Soviet era in 1994 helped win them some assistance............

............Disappointment with insider politics as usual produced a popular movement called the Orange Revolution in 2004. The Ukrainian opposition to the government was led by Viktor Yushchenko.

On September 5, 2004, Yushchenko became desperately ill after dinner. Medical tests showed dioxin poisoning symptoms, and the symptoms were visible in his bloated, pockmarked face.
Image of Viktor YushchenkoViktor Yushchenko (Image: Tasnim News Agency, CC BY 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0, via Wikimedia Commons)

Who had done it? Several suspects fled to Russia and were not questioned. Was the intention to kill him outright? Or “merely” to disfigure him in his outward appearance and, thus, scuttle his chances for election? Whatever the case, it backfired.

When the government announced fraudulent election returns, people took to the streets. They chose the vivid color orange to rally people to their cause and kept protesting even in the bitter winter cold of the streets. After 17 days, the protestors won; and in a new election, Yushchenko became president.................

..........At the end of 2013, when Yanukovych negotiated and then bizarrely refused to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union, protests erupted again in Kiev, Lviv, and other cities. These protests, in coldest winter, came to be called the Euromaidan, or “Euro Square.”

Government forces tried to quell the protests. Dozens of protestors were killed. But by February 2014, President Yanukovych felt his power crumbling and fled, finding refuge in Russia................

..............Putin, who had been Yanukovych’s patron, declared his ouster and the change of government illegitimate. Russian forces moved into Crimea. At first, the Russian government denied that it had sent troops into the region, which had an ethnic Russian majority. The troops bore no insignia, but they did wear masks. Russia then annexed Crimea officially, over international protests.

Later, in March 2015, Putin proudly admitted openly what his government had denied: Russian involvement was not a spontaneous response to calls for help, but a plan, and the annexation was ordered weeks before the referendum was staged under the watchful eyes of gunmen..................

https://www.wondriumdaily.com/a-look-back-at-the-history-of-ukraine-russia-conflict-as-tensions-continue-to-rise/
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #908 on: July 11, 2023, 08:20:03 pm »
A Look Back at the History of Ukraine- Russia Conflict as Tensions Continue to Rise

Since World War II, the violent changing of European borders has been considered taboo, given the cascade of turmoil that could follow. For that reason, 2014 was, ina sense, a pivotal year, as Eastern Europe again saw borders altered by violence and the threat of force, as part of Ukraine (Crimea) was annexed by Russia. In light of continuing conflict, we look back at that disruptive event, and the continuing ramifications brought up by it.......

.........The tinder for the Ukraine conflict didn’t spontaneously come into being in 2014. Rather, the background is a slow-motion identity crisis involving both Ukraine and Russia, and extending back over centuries.

...........For Ukrainians, their identities are both linked to those of a past shared with Russia, but also with historic ties and affinities with the West. Ukraine is marked by a diversity of historical memories and orientations, and in that sense, it’s like a microcosm of larger Eastern European patterns.

The tides of history carved out divides in Ukraine that still persist today. First Mongols came and receded, leaving Tartars; then Poland-Lithuania moved in, leaving their own imprint...................

...............In 1654, the Cossack warlord Bohdan Khmelnytsky, who had led an uprising against Poland and sought to create an independent state, signed a treaty with Russia at Pereyaslav.

Khmelnytsky received the Tsar’s protection, along with Russian promises for Ukrainian autonomy. Instead of getting an ally who would defend their existence, the Cossacks discovered that they had a set of new rulers. In 1667, Poland and Russia came to an agreement for partition: They divided the contested Ukrainian lands along the Dnieper River................

.............Between the World Wars, Ukrainians found themselves divided by borders, most living in the Soviet Union, others in Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. Inside the Soviet Union, Stalin cracked down on Ukrainian cultural leaders and brought mass death with the Terror Famine, or Holodomor, of the 1930s.

With the coming of the Second World War, some Ukrainian nationalists hoped that Nazi Germany might help their cause. Among their leaders was Stepan Bandera. At the start of the Second World War, they allied with Nazi Germany and some participated in the Nazi campaigns against the Jews. But as Ukrainian hopes for independence were frustrated, relations deteriorated and the Nazis imprisoned Bandera.

Toward the end of the Second World War, borders and populations were shifted. Ukraine saw key examples of this. Stalin deported all the Crimean Tartars from their homes, expelling them overnight. Poland shifted westward, ethnic Poles were evicted from ancestral homes, and the city of Lwow became Lviv, in western Ukraine. By the end of this process, Ukraine’s borders included most Ukrainians for the first time in centuries, but all of them under Moscow’s rigid control..............

...........With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became independent. However, the newly independent Ukraine revealed complexities. Along with Russia and Belarus, Ukraine was one of the founding members of the CIS, the Commonwealth of Independent States, to the east. Yet many Ukrainian leaders avowed that they wanted to be part of an Eastern European “return to Europe,” which would mean orienting themselves to the west....................

......Corruption at multiple levels of government ate away at ordinary people’s confidence in the system, and economic productivity lagged. Ukraine found itself hugely dependent on Russia for energy supplies, some 75 percent of its gas and 80 percent of its oil. To overcome its troubles, Ukraine sought international financial aid, and giving up its nuclear stockpile left over from the Soviet era in 1994 helped win them some assistance............

............Disappointment with insider politics as usual produced a popular movement called the Orange Revolution in 2004. The Ukrainian opposition to the government was led by Viktor Yushchenko.

On September 5, 2004, Yushchenko became desperately ill after dinner. Medical tests showed dioxin poisoning symptoms, and the symptoms were visible in his bloated, pockmarked face.
Image of Viktor YushchenkoViktor Yushchenko (Image: Tasnim News Agency, CC BY 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0, via Wikimedia Commons)

Who had done it? Several suspects fled to Russia and were not questioned. Was the intention to kill him outright? Or “merely” to disfigure him in his outward appearance and, thus, scuttle his chances for election? Whatever the case, it backfired.

When the government announced fraudulent election returns, people took to the streets. They chose the vivid color orange to rally people to their cause and kept protesting even in the bitter winter cold of the streets. After 17 days, the protestors won; and in a new election, Yushchenko became president.................

..........At the end of 2013, when Yanukovych negotiated and then bizarrely refused to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union, protests erupted again in Kiev, Lviv, and other cities. These protests, in coldest winter, came to be called the Euromaidan, or “Euro Square.”

Government forces tried to quell the protests. Dozens of protestors were killed. But by February 2014, President Yanukovych felt his power crumbling and fled, finding refuge in Russia................

..............Putin, who had been Yanukovych’s patron, declared his ouster and the change of government illegitimate. Russian forces moved into Crimea. At first, the Russian government denied that it had sent troops into the region, which had an ethnic Russian majority. The troops bore no insignia, but they did wear masks. Russia then annexed Crimea officially, over international protests.

Later, in March 2015, Putin proudly admitted openly what his government had denied: Russian involvement was not a spontaneous response to calls for help, but a plan, and the annexation was ordered weeks before the referendum was staged under the watchful eyes of gunmen..................

https://www.wondriumdaily.com/a-look-back-at-the-history-of-ukraine-russia-conflict-as-tensions-continue-to-rise/

Very nice, but there is only one statement that is both necessary, and sufficient, to justify support for Ukraine's fight against the Russian orc:

Quote
With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became independent.

That independence was acknowledged by Russia - could not have happened without the affirmative consent of Russia - and was vouchsafed by both Russia and the U.S.

Now Russia wants a mulligan.  They want to take it all back and rewind the tape to the early 1970s, before the collapse of the Soviet Union became inevitable.

Furthermore, based on the facts - not speculation, fact - that Russia is intentionally targeting civilians that are outside the sphere of combat, and has kidnapped tens of thousands of Ukraine children and forcibly taken them back to Russia for indoctrination, and worse, it should be clear to anyone with half a brain that Putin is engaged in trying to complete the Holodomor that Stalin first visited on the Ukraine populace.  That is cultural, if not ethnic, genocide.

So, side with Russia, and you side with genocide.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #909 on: July 11, 2023, 08:53:54 pm »
Russian general known personally by Putin is killed 'by British-supplied Storm Shadow missile'

Ukrainian and Russian sources reported the Tsokov had been killed in the attack
Britain supplied its long range Storm Shadow missiles to Ukraine earlier this year

By WILL STEWART and JAMES REYNOLDS
11 July 2023

Vladmir Putin has lost another top general 'in a strike by British supplied Storm Shadow missiles', according to both Ukrainian and Russian sources.

Lieutenant-General Oleg Tsokov, 51, was personally known to the dictator and had been sanctioned by Britain and the EU for his role in the war against Ukraine.

A Ukrainian claim today that the commander had been 'liquidated' was later supported by Russian channels with key military links.

Pro-war Russian Telegram channel Voenkory Russkoy Vesny admitted that 'as a result of the attack by Storm Shadow cruise missiles on the command post of the 58th Army in the Berdiansk region, Lt-Gen Oleg Tsokov [...] was killed.'

'Colleagues speak of Tsokov as a competent officer and a good commander.'

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12287455/Russian-general-known-personally-Putin-killed-British-supplied-Storm-Shadow-missile.html

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #910 on: July 11, 2023, 09:09:57 pm »
Russian general known personally by Putin is killed 'by British-supplied Storm Shadow missile'

Ukrainian and Russian sources reported the Tsokov had been killed in the attack
Britain supplied its long range Storm Shadow missiles to Ukraine earlier this year

By WILL STEWART and JAMES REYNOLDS
11 July 2023

Vladmir Putin has lost another top general 'in a strike by British supplied Storm Shadow missiles', according to both Ukrainian and Russian sources.

Lieutenant-General Oleg Tsokov, 51, was personally known to the dictator and had been sanctioned by Britain and the EU for his role in the war against Ukraine.

A Ukrainian claim today that the commander had been 'liquidated' was later supported by Russian channels with key military links.

Pro-war Russian Telegram channel Voenkory Russkoy Vesny admitted that 'as a result of the attack by Storm Shadow cruise missiles on the command post of the 58th Army in the Berdiansk region, Lt-Gen Oleg Tsokov [...] was killed.'

'Colleagues speak of Tsokov as a competent officer and a good commander.'

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12287455/Russian-general-known-personally-Putin-killed-British-supplied-Storm-Shadow-missile.html

To quote Inspector Clouseau....

"Not any more"

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #911 on: July 11, 2023, 10:49:54 pm »
Russian general known personally by Putin is killed 'by British-supplied Storm Shadow missile'

Ukrainian and Russian sources reported the Tsokov had been killed in the attack
Britain supplied its long range Storm Shadow missiles to Ukraine earlier this year

By WILL STEWART and JAMES REYNOLDS
11 July 2023

Vladmir Putin has lost another top general 'in a strike by British supplied Storm Shadow missiles', according to both Ukrainian and Russian sources.

Lieutenant-General Oleg Tsokov, 51, was personally known to the dictator and had been sanctioned by Britain and the EU for his role in the war against Ukraine.

A Ukrainian claim today that the commander had been 'liquidated' was later supported by Russian channels with key military links.

Pro-war Russian Telegram channel Voenkory Russkoy Vesny admitted that 'as a result of the attack by Storm Shadow cruise missiles on the command post of the 58th Army in the Berdiansk region, Lt-Gen Oleg Tsokov [...] was killed.'

'Colleagues speak of Tsokov as a competent officer and a good commander.'

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12287455/Russian-general-known-personally-Putin-killed-British-supplied-Storm-Shadow-missile.html


They lost another General again?  It's like a person who is a red-shirt in Star Trek.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #912 on: July 11, 2023, 10:52:17 pm »

They lost another General again?  It's like a person who is a red-shirt in Star Trek.

:mauslaff:

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #913 on: July 11, 2023, 11:16:01 pm »
The day in which Russia no longer exists will be a great day for humanity.

@ScottinVA

I THINK  you meant to write "Communism",NOT  "Russia". Russia existed a long time before the Communists took over,and will continue to exist once they are out of power and hiding in exile.

Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #914 on: July 11, 2023, 11:18:15 pm »
Cultural genocide.

@Kamaji

To replace all the Russian soldiers being killed now,in the future. Russia really doesn't have a large population,just a HUGE freaking country. The truth is this is the only way they can hope to replace the soldiers they are wasting today.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #915 on: July 11, 2023, 11:20:56 pm »
This is dated, but he lays out the statistics.  The amount of money that we have thrown at their war since Sen Paul took to the floor is absolutely ridiculous and unwarranted.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2uV4Q9R0bk

@libertybele

Yeah,too  hell with having our allies suffer all the human and property  losses while destroying the biggest danger to America,it's the money that counts,right?

MUCH MO BETTA to let the Soviets rebuild their strength by conquering other nations with assets already in production so they can remain strong while they try to weaken us,right?
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #916 on: July 11, 2023, 11:22:38 pm »
Always thought Russians were basically decent humble people, but if that's true, that's just evil.

Edit: the reason I assumed it was to be rehomed with Russian mothers, is the large amount of women on the Zoom call.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

Do NOT confuse the typical Russian subject with their leadership.

How would YOU like it if people in other countries compared all Americans with  Biden?
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #917 on: July 11, 2023, 11:26:22 pm »

So even though Ukraine and Russia have been fighting for decades it's our war??? This goes way beyond 1994.


@libertybele

You are living proof of the old saying that "You can lead a horse to water,but you can't make him drink."

You have your mind made up and no amount of evidence in the world will convince you that you are just a surrender monkey.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #918 on: July 11, 2023, 11:29:52 pm »
How many Russians have died in Ukraine? Data shows what Moscow hides

 Nearly 50,000 Russian men have died in the war in Ukraine, according to the first independent statistical analysis of Russia’s war dead.


@libertybele

And THAT explains why the Russians are kidnapping Ukranian children and sending them to Russia. Their  population is so small they can't/won't have enough children through normal means to replace the ones being killed in this war.


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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #919 on: July 11, 2023, 11:34:56 pm »
@libertybele

Yeah,too  hell with having our allies suffer all the human and property  losses while destroying the biggest danger to America,it's the money that counts,right?

MUCH MO BETTA to let the Soviets rebuild their strength by conquering other nations with assets already in production so they can remain strong while they try to weaken us,right?

@sneakypete  No problem helping them but when the $$$ isn't appropriated to humanity or helping them win the war, then something is wrong. We run out of $$ or munitions, who then is going to help them or us??  Printing more money is not the answer.
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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #920 on: July 11, 2023, 11:35:42 pm »
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #921 on: July 11, 2023, 11:40:57 pm »
@libertybele

You are living proof of the old saying that "You can lead a horse to water,but you can't make him drink."

You have your mind made up and no amount of evidence in the world will convince you that you are just a surrender monkey.

@sneakypete Surrender monkey?  How so?  We've sent over $75 BILLION and that still isn't enough for Z.  It still hasn't resolved the war. When do we stop the aid?  When we ourselves have depleted our own military and tanked our economy?  Common sense needs to come into play here -- and if that makes me a surrender monkey in your books. ....  Oh well, as you stated, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  You need to look at the entire picture, not just what the propagandist would have you believe.
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #922 on: July 11, 2023, 11:51:53 pm »
@sneakypete  No problem helping them but when the $$$ isn't appropriated to humanity or helping them win the war, then something is wrong. We run out of $$ or munitions, who then is going to help them or us??  Printing more money is not the answer.

@libertybele

We are NOT going to run out of money or munitions. Almost all of the munitions  we have been supplying  are munitions that were to be destroyed soon anyhow,due to age.

Plus,it is FAR cheaper to fight a short war by proxy than it is to fight an extended actual war where you send your military off to fight and die.

Hell,we are spending more money on providing housing,food,medical care,and spending money on illegal aliens than we are on Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #923 on: July 11, 2023, 11:57:14 pm »
@sneakypete[/member
Quote
] Surrender monkey?  How so?  We've sent over $75 BILLION and that still isn't enough for Z.


@libertybele

And you have been whining about it since day one.


Quote
It still hasn't resolved the war.


Well,we COULD follow your policy and surrender because it is cheaper to surrender than it is to fight.

Quote
When do we stop the aid?  When we ourselves have depleted our own military and tanked our economy? 

HorseHillary  squared. We stop the aid when Russia retreats behind their borders and we,along  with the other free nations have helped Ukraine rebuild so she can defend herself if Russia tries this again come the next generation.

Quote
Common sense needs to come into play here -- and if that makes me a surrender monkey in your books.
....

Yes,you ARE a surrender monkey,and No,you do NOT have any common sense because you are so afraid of fighting that you would surrender.

 
Quote
Oh well, as you stated, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  You need to look at the entire picture, not just what the propagandist would have you believe.
[/quote

How many wars have YOU fought in?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #924 on: July 12, 2023, 12:10:49 am »
@sneakypete  so your answer is to keep printing money to support  a war that has been on going for decades??

There IS absolutely concern that we are drawing down our own munitions that could easily pose problems should we need them for ourselves .... China is just waiting in the wings .....

Again @sneakypete who is going to help Ukraine and us if we are attacked and our stockpiles are depleted and our economy continues to falter???

And no, I haven't fought in a war, (which you knew) so that makes me a surrender monkey?  Gottcha.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/17/politics/us-weapons-factories-ukraine-ammunition/index.html\

https://veteranlife.com/military-news/weapons-to-ukraine/

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/05/17/ukraine-aid-and-us-stockpiles-are-running-out-whats-next/

https://www.csis.org/analysis/united-states-running-out-weapons-send-ukraine

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-push-to-restock-howitzer-shells-rockets-sent-to-ukraine-bogs-down-f604511a

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/24/us/politics/military-weapons-ukraine-war.html



I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.