Ukraine 3

[Smokin Joe]

I agree. Well known military strategy when the enemy is conducting a 're-energized assault' to fall back and let them. Then they get thin and overextended on the frontlines and are vulnerable to a flanking attack. Welcome to my parlor, said the spider to the fly.

You can come in all you want. But you cannot leave. I would be careful if I was Russia when something is too easy. But then, Russia is not known for 'caution'.

Hopefully the Ukrainian play is similar to the battle of Cowpens...

But disdain for the 'special' nature of Special Forces is nothing new, and if the commanders used their Spetsnaz as line infantry, there is a good chance they pissed away force multipliers as cannon fodder. That would be a screw up of immense proportions, but possibly of benefit to Ukraine.

[kevindavis007]

@sneakypete

Exactly.  And I'm not a war-monger trying to back Russia into a corner in which it's survival is literally at stake.  Reparations just aren't going to happen.   I just want the war to end with Ukraine still standing, and Russia not profiting from its choice to bringing systemic, organized murder back to Europe out of greed.

Personally, I want Russia weakened even more so it could force China to prop up what is left of Russia and quite possibly destroy Brics.

[sneakypete]

Personally, I want Russia weakened even more so it could force China to prop up what is left of Russia and quite possibly destroy Brics.

@kevindavis007

I have mixed feelings  about that. The Chinese,although  alleged to be "Socialist Allies" of Russia have been lusting after the mineral,gas,coal,and uranium in the coastal part of Russia that is accessible to the Chinese. The Chinese are WHY  the Soviets have the "Northern Fleet"

Weaken Russia too much,and the even more evil bastards know as the Chinese will be giving the whole word problems for longer than any of  us will remain alive. Hell,they might even use it as a launch  pad to invade Europe.

After all,the more Chinese Troops they get killed,the fewer they have to find food,water,clothing,shelter,and jobs for.

BTW,how the HELL can any of the western airheads take a look at China,North Korean,and Russia,and STILL claim that communism is the ideal life style?

[kevindavis007]

@kevindavis007

I have mixed feelings  about that. The Chinese,although  alleged to be "Socialist Allies" of Russia have been lusting after the mineral,gas,coal,and uranium in the coastal part of Russia that is accessible to the Chinese. The Chinese are WHY  the Soviets have the "Northern Fleet"

Weaken Russia too much,and the even more evil bastards know as the Chinese will be giving the whole word problems for longer than any of  us will remain alive. Hell,they might even use it as a launch  pad to invade Europe.

After all,the more Chinese Troops they get killed,the fewer they have to find food,water,clothing,shelter,and jobs for.

BTW,how the HELL can any of the western airheads take a look at China,North Korean,and Russia,and STILL claim that communism is the ideal life style?

@sneakypete


I have seen videos on how life is horrible in China and yet the Wumaos (people who defend China) or members of the 50-cent army (paid trolls from China since the average person from China can't get on Twitter), said life is wonderful, yet it is a dystopian hell hole like in Blade Runner.


 

[kevindavis007]

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1647255083178967044

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Casualty ratios in positional warfare have always favored the defense, which can remain in cover on favorable ground while the attacker has to cross in the open to advance.  It's only when the offense achieves a breakthrough that destroys the defenders' positional advantage that the casualty ratio advantage flips over to favor the attacker.

One of the major problems the Russian military has is the political pressure to achieve battlefield successes quickly.  So rather than conserving strength to build up a significant, concentrated force (the military principle of "mass") capable of achieving a breakthrough, they commit any newly arriving forces piecemeal.   While that does enable them to maintain pressure over time, it also means they never get the advantage
that comes with a breakthrough.  They just bleed men and equipment, and at a higher rate than the defender.

In contrast, the Ukrainians adhere to "economy of force", which means putting just enough troops in the defensive position to prevent a breakthrough.  All forces in excess of that minimal force are conserved, and used to build up a reserve force of sufficient in mass to achieve a breakthrough in a counterattack.

That's why Ukraine has had multiple successful counterattacks while Russia is just stuck grinding away.

[240B]

Hopefully the Ukrainian play is similar to the battle of Cowpens...

But disdain for the 'special' nature of Special Forces is nothing new, and if the commanders used their Spetsnaz as line infantry, there is a good chance they pissed away force multipliers as cannon fodder. That would be a screw up of immense proportions, but possibly of benefit to Ukraine.

Russia lost up to 90% of their elite "Spetsnaz" units because they used them as regular infantry, the Washington Post writes. It will take years to rebuild.

You called it. And so it is.

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete


I have seen videos on how life is horrible in China and yet the Wumaos (people who defend China) or members of the 50-cent army (paid trolls from China since the average person from China can't get on Twitter), said life is wonderful, yet it is a dystopian hell hole like in Blade Runner.

@kevindavis007

Never heard of the "Wumaos" before. Is this an  actual name they go by as a people?

BTW,for anyone wondering,I don't have a single ill will towards anyone of Asian heritage,including the  Chinese.

I just hate Communists with a blinding passion,regardless of race,creed,color,or how many  times they are registered to vote as Dims.

[catfish1957]

Personally, I want Russia weakened even more so it could force China to prop up what is left of Russia and quite possibly destroy Brics.

They have a stranglehold on the world's manufacturing sector, and now have OPEC in their pocket.  Don't see the BRICS scenario going away.  But you do have a point in a way  if the Chicoms can weaken their fidicuary base by propping up Russia,  and the Yuan floats lightly for awhile, it might slow it down.

[kevindavis007]

They have a stranglehold on the world's manufacturing sector, and now have OPEC in their pocket.  Don't see the BRICS scenario going away.  But you do have a point in a way  if the Chicoms can weaken their fidicuary base by propping up Russia,  and the Yuan floats lightly for awhile, it might slow it down.

Plus China is in horrible financial shape. Much worse than we are.

[sneakypete]

Casualty ratios in positional warfare have always favored the defense, which can remain in cover on favorable ground while the attacker has to cross in the open to advance.  It's only when the offense achieves a breakthrough that destroys the defenders' positional advantage that the casualty ratio advantage flips over to favor the attacker.

One of the major problems the Russian military has is the political pressure to achieve battlefield successes quickly.  So rather than conserving strength to build up a significant, concentrated force (the military principle of "mass") capable of achieving a breakthrough, they commit any newly arriving forces piecemeal.   While that does enable them to maintain pressure over time, it also means they never get the advantage
that comes with a breakthrough.  They just bleed men and equipment, and at a higher rate than the defender.

In contrast, the Ukrainians adhere to "economy of force", which means putting just enough troops in the defensive position to prevent a breakthrough.  All forces in excess of that minimal force are conserved, and used to build up a reserve force of sufficient in mass to achieve a breakthrough in a counterattack.

That's why Ukraine has had multiple successful counterattacks while Russia is just stuck grinding away.

@Maj. Bill Martin

That works for the Soviet leadership,too. They don't have to find employment,housing,or paychecks for dead soldiers. Communism ALWAYS works better when there are fewer promises that have to be fulfilled.

And despite the horrors of Communism,the typical Russian is insanely patriotic. Maybe not to communism or their asshat leaders,but you are skating on thin ice if you badmouth "Holy Mother Russia". They can put up with the crap communism brings forth,as long as they have Holy Mother Russia to fall back onto.

BTW,how many of you were like me,and flat-out knowingly lied to about the Communists closing all the churches in Russia? I know I was told this as a kid in the early 50's.

Not only was it a flat-out lie,but "Russian Orthodox Priest" was a KGB career field. A MASTER play by the Communists,regardless of your politics. They no longer had to send out or recruit spies to spy on their subject because the subjects were standing in line to tell their most shameless secrets to the KGB!

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Maj. Bill Martin

That works for the Soviet leadership,too. They don't have to find employment,housing,or paychecks to dead soldiers. Communism ALWAYS works better when there are fewer promises that have to be fulfilled.
And despite the horrors of Communism,the typical Russian is insanely patriotic. Maybe not to communism or their asshat leaders,but you are skating on thin ice if you badmouth "Holy Mother Russia". They can put up with the crap communism brings forth,as long as they have Holy Mother Russia to fall back onto.

BTW,how many of you were like me,and flat-out knowingly  lied to about the Communists closing all the churches in Russia? I know I was told this as a kid in the early 50's.

Not only was it a flat-out lie,but "Russian Orthodox Priest" was a KGB career field. A MASTER play by the Communists,regardless of your politics. They no longer had to send out or recruit spies to spy on their subject because the subjects were standing in line to tell their most shameless secrets to the KGB!

 

[catfish1957]

Plus China is in horrible financial shape. Much worse than we are.

But, we are a service economy, and they are a juggenaunt industrial powerhouse in the making. Their satelitte manufacturing base in Africa and South America, was well planned, since they do not have the demographic work base to sustain   They have 50X the upside of us, so I got to kind of disagree, at least in the long term.  When that economic engine starts humming, BRICS as reference currency is inevitable.  Will that be 2 years? 5?, 10?  Not totally certain.  But again it is inevitable.

[sneakypete]

Russia lost up to 90% of their elite "Spetsnaz" units because they used them as regular infantry, the Washington Post writes. It will take years to rebuild.

[/b]

I know this had happened before in other places,but the asshat USMC General in "I Corps" in VN just decided one day that since HE was the CMMFIC of US troops in I Corps,he was going to close all the SF camps and use those experienced NCO's to run recon missions for him.

I MAY be confusing him with  some other USMC asshat General,because there were so many of them,but I THINK he was the same USMC General that refused to send a relief force to a SF camp that was being overran by the NVA. Thanks to chemo brain I get names confused,but this SF camp was famous for being under attack by Soviet tanks,and there was actual film footage of one of them on top of the command bunker,spinning it treads to try to break into it.

The next morning,shortly  after dawn,an aircraft from Saigon landed at the big USMC base in Da Nang ,and General William Westmorland stepped off and was taken to the USMC headquarters building. When he left,the Marines there had a new commander,and the one that had been in command the day before was on his way into  retirement after being relieved of his command.

You kinda expect stupid Biden like that from teenage Marines. After all they ARE teenagers,and they ARE Marines.

But from a freaking Corps Commanding General that thinks he can ignore direct orders from THE Commanding General of all US forces in VN????

BTW,I heard that a relief column filled with APC's and Marines was enroute to that SF camp before Westmorelands aircraft took off to take him back to  Saigon.


 

[sneakypete]

Plus China is in horrible financial shape. Much worse than we are.

@kevindavis007

Where did you get that  from?

China now manufactures a LARGE percentage of the goods that America needs,not to mention other countries.

For example,I bought an antique truck a guy was advertising nationally,and when I went to pick it up,I asked the guy why he was selling it because it was in such good condition (I drove it home from several hundred miles away),he told me had been a maintenance supervisor at the local Hormel meat  packing plant,but the Chinese had bought the plant out,and sent workers there to dissemble it and ship it back to China. Since it would need to put back in working order again ASAP,the Chinese had hired him to move to China for 3 years to reassemble the plant and train the Chinese workers on how to work it and how to repair it.

The stupid SOB was actually bragging about being hired to take away jobs from his friends and neighbors. He got a little steamed when I told him how freaking stupid he was,not only to brag about going to work for the people that  put him and  lot of his neighbors out of work,but also helping to destroy America's economy in the bagain. What seemed to  upset  him the most was when I asked him how it felt to sell his son and future grandsons to the freaking Chinese. We damn near came to blows.

To this very day I am still stunned at the total freaking ignorance about reality of some people.

I have also been told,but didn't verify,that GM actually built a new plant in China for the Chinese to manufacture GM automatic transmissions,and sent a whole crew there to live so they could teach the Chinese the proper way to do things.

BTW,the Chinese also  put these people up  in new apartment blocks rent-free with maids,free transportation,no taxes,etc,etc,etc.

I HAVE to wonder if ANY of those cretins has ever stopped to wonder what will happen if the Chinese just decide one day to stop shipping automatic transmissions,or packaged meat,to America.

How may OTHER American businesses will go bankrupt because of it?

[kevindavis007]

@kevindavis007

Where did you get that  from?

China now manufactures a LARGE percentage of the goods that America needs,not to mention other countries.

For example,I bought an antique truck a guy was advertising nationally,and when I went to pick it up,I asked the guy why he was selling it because it was in such good condition (I drove it home from several hundred miles away),he told me had been a maintenance supervisor at the local Hormel meat  packing plant,but the Chinese had bought the plant out,and sent workers there to dissemble it and ship it back to China. Since it would need to put back in working order again ASAP,the Chinese had hired him to move to China for 3 years to reassemble the plant and train the Chinese workers on how to work it and how to repair it.

The stupid SOB was actually bragging about being hired to take away jobs from his friends and neighbors. He got a little steamed when I told him how freaking stupid he was,not only to brag about going to work for the people that  put him and  lot of his neighbors out of work,but also helping to destroy America's economy in the bagain. What seemed to  upset  him the most was when I asked him how it felt to sell his son and future grandsons to the freaking Chinese. We damn near came to blows.

To this very day I am still stunned at the total freaking ignorance about reality of some people.

I have also been told,but didn't verify,that GM actually built a new plant in China for the Chinese to manufacture GM automatic transmissions,and sent a whole crew there to live so they could teach the Chinese the proper way to do things.

BTW,the Chinese also  put these people up  in new apartment blocks rent-free with maids,free transportation,no taxes,etc,etc,etc.

I HAVE to wonder if ANY of those cretins has ever stopped to wonder what will happen if the Chinese just decide one day to stop shipping automatic transmissions,or packaged meat,to America.

How may OTHER American businesses will go bankrupt because of it?

@sneakypete


A lot of factories are starting to leave in China


They are about to have a housing bubble and they have a lot Ghost towns.


Case in point:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wN5WfWRyck&t=60s

[catfish1957]

@kevindavis007

Where did you get that  from?

China now manufactures a LARGE percentage of the goods that America needs,not to mention other countries.

For example,I bought an antique truck a guy was advertising nationally,and when I went to pick it up,I asked the guy why he was selling it because it was in such good condition (I drove it home from several hundred miles away),he told me had been a maintenance supervisor at the local Hormel meat  packing plant,but the Chinese had bought the plant out,and sent workers there to dissemble it and ship it back to China. Since it would need to put back in working order again ASAP,the Chinese had hired him to move to China for 3 years to reassemble the plant and train the Chinese workers on how to work it and how to repair it.

The stupid SOB was actually bragging about being hired to take away jobs from his friends and neighbors. He got a little steamed when I told him how freaking stupid he was,not only to brag about going to work for the people that  put him and  lot of his neighbors out of work,but also helping to destroy America's economy in the bagain. What seemed to  upset  him the most was when I asked him how it felt to sell his son and future grandsons to the freaking Chinese. We damn near came to blows.

To this very day I am still stunned at the total freaking ignorance about reality of some people.

I have also been told,but didn't verify,that GM actually built a new plant in China for the Chinese to manufacture GM automatic transmissions,and sent a whole crew there to live so they could teach the Chinese the proper way to do things.

BTW,the Chinese also  put these people up  in new apartment blocks rent-free with maids,free transportation,no taxes,etc,etc,etc.

I HAVE to wonder if ANY of those cretins has ever stopped to wonder what will happen if the Chinese just decide one day to stop shipping automatic transmissions,or packaged meat,to America.

How may OTHER American businesses will go bankrupt because of it?

China's biggest problem are: (1)  that they don't have financial accumen and experience needed yet to thrive in a pure captialistic system.  They've bastardized the old with the new, and it is giving them serious growing pains. (2)  Their demographic profiles suck, in that they lack a young society, even worse than us.  That is why you see such massive ramping up of South America and Africa by the Chicoms.  These have become the surrogate work force for fueling their industrial sector. (3) Poor monetary policy-  Why you hear so much about a BRICS composite currency is because the world does not trust the Yuan to be the reference currency.  When you look at all the knee jerk movement in currency conversion rates of the past 10-15 years you can see why. 

But no doubt about it, The Chicoms have a bright economic future, much like our country had after World War 2.  Bumping off the $USD will just be one aspect of it.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Plus China is in horrible financial shape. Much worse than we are.

I've heard it go both ways. Some people say it's better, some worse. I don't know.

I do know that the fact that we're reliant on Taiwan for chips is pretty outrageous and dangerous for national security.

[bilo]

Personally, I want Russia weakened even more so it could force China to prop up what is left of Russia and quite possibly destroy Brics.

It's a little bit off topic, but BRICS could be a very good thing for the USA long term. If the dollar is no longer the primary reserve currency it will force our cowards in DC to actually start managing the govt and the budget.

[bilo]

China's biggest problem are: (1)  that they don't have financial accumen and experience needed yet to thrive in a pure captialistic system.  They've bastardized the old with the new, and it is giving them serious growing pains. (2)  Their demographic profiles suck, in that they lack a young society, even worse than us.  That is why you see such massive ramping up of South America and Africa by the Chicoms.  These have become the surrogate work force for fueling their industrial sector. (3) Poor monetary policy-  Why you hear so much about a BRICS composite currency is because the world does not trust the Yuan to be the reference currency.  When you look at all the knee jerk movement in currency conversion rates of the past 10-15 years you can see why. 

But no doubt about it, The Chicoms have a bright economic future, much like our country had after World War 2.  Bumping off the $USD will just be one aspect of it.

No they don't.  China needs to import 85% of heir energy needs. China doesn't have the capacity to feed their people. China does not have the chip manufacturing acumen found in Taiwan. China has a lot of ships but they don't have a capable deep sea navy. On top of these problems industry has realized it's not safe, or smart, to build anything in China and manufacturing is moving out.

[catfish1957]

No they don't.  China needs to import 85% of heir energy needs.
See recent OPEC interactions, and watch for favorable pricing considerations for trade/defense agreements.

 China doesn't have the capacity to feed their people.
Russia is just next door.  What do you think the R in BRICS is.  Again, more equitable trade.  The Chicoms techological advantages and sharing will more than be equitable to Russia, who especially love being able to sell China farm and livestock


China does not have the chip manufacturing acumen found in Taiwan.
Have you been watching  the news?  Taiwan will be part of China, probably sooner than later  And just think what that will do to the Chinese P and L Statements.

China has a lot of ships but they don't have a capable deep sea navy. On top of these problems industry has realized it's not safe, or smart, to build anything in China and manufacturing is moving out.

China's navy is growing exponentially.  They lied cheated, stolen and reversed engineered much to probably put the close to us on a technolocial basis.  If we do have an advantage, it is shrinking rapidly.

And on the matter of manufacturing.  It's moving to South America and africa, but is owned and subsided by the Chicoms.  Not as much quality wise, but because the Chicom demographics are not supporting a manufacturing workforce base.  And one thing not to forget ....  this country is $32T in debt and a rate of 150% GDP/Debt.  It is just a matter of time, that the $USD is decoupled worldwide at reference currency.  We sink as an economic world power as the the Chicoms fill the void.

I know it is downer news, but our government has destroyed our economc capital the past 50 years, and the chikens are soon coming home to roost.

[bilo]

You have it all wrong.

The OPEC interactions and BRICS promotion are directly tied to Biden pushing the EV revolution in the USA. OPEC is just increasing ties with customers.

Russia selling oil to China doesn't change the collapse both countries are facing.

The only reason the threats to Taiwan keep increasing is because things are getting worse in China. The dictators in China are afraid of push back from the populous and creating a nationalistic fervor is a great distraction.

China's economy is based on exporting goods. The demand for goods being made in China is decreasing and the number of manufacturers wanting to make goods there is decreasing.

China's navy is not a deep water navy. Look into the size of Japan's navy you might be surprised at what you find.

The fear of China's great technological prowess is overrated. The high end chips are made in Taiwan. China is not going to walk in and take over those plants and get the highly skilled workers continue working there as well.

The two best places to manufacturer goods now are Mexico and the USA. Our biggest trading partner is Mexico. We have the energy resources to sustain ourselves and help our friends. We have the food production to feed our selves and our friends. We have the high end manufacturing and our neighbor to the south has the value add manufacturing capabilities to supply our needs and our friends.

I would submit that the run up on China being the biggest threat of our lifetimes is a product of our defense industries and globalists wanting to retain a dying post WWII order. Globalization is dying. In the future we will look out for our interests.

[catfish1957]

You have it all wrong.

The OPEC interactions and BRICS promotion are directly tied to Biden pushing the EV revolution in the USA. OPEC is just increasing ties with customers.

Russia selling oil to China doesn't change the collapse both countries are facing.

The only reason the threats to Taiwan keep increasing is because things are getting worse in China. The dictators in China are afraid of push back from the populous and creating a nationalistic fervor is a great distraction.

China's economy is based on exporting goods. The demand for goods being made in China is decreasing and the number of manufacturers wanting to make goods there is decreasing.

China's navy is not a deep water navy. Look into the size of Japan's navy you might be surprised at what you find.

The fear of China's great technological prowess is overrated. The high end chips are made in Taiwan. China is not going to walk in and take over those plants and get the highly skilled workers continue working there as well.

The two best places to manufacturer goods now are Mexico and the USA. Our biggest trading partner is Mexico. We have the energy resources to sustain ourselves and help our friends. We have the food production to feed our selves and our friends. We have the high end manufacturing and our neighbor to the south has the value add manufacturing capabilities to supply our needs and our friends.

I would submit that the run up on China being the biggest threat of our lifetimes is a product of our defense industries and globalists wanting to retain a dying post WWII order. Globalization is dying. In the future we will look out for our interests.

We are 180 on our level of optimistic.  You still think a 150% GDP on debt, and $32T is sustainable?  A lot of what you are countering is based on static data, and not trending of geo-political-economic realites.  That energy resources you tout, are at the mercy of 50%+ of the electorate who have bought into the enviro-scam, lock stock and barrell.  Add the fact these same are entitlement junkies, the chance of dislodging their dim leaders are basically zero.

OPEC and customer base via our EV push?  There is always a rule of thumb in commerce and capitalism.  Economic alliances are always among the strongest and friendliest.  Don't forget that OPEC has had a record and history since the 1970's to fight back to those who threaten their interests.  Our GND slant, and untapped energy puts us at odds no matter what.

Taiwan and high end chips?  You really don't believe that Taiwan will be a Chicom province likely in the next few years?  That just adds to the power.

And to the comment around their manufacturing....   Didn;t you read my comment last time?  This is being well planned and executed via proxy through the workforces in South America and Aftrica.  Well funded, underwritten, and subsidized.

I am glad that you do finally realize that the NWO scenario is unflolding, and was wondering why you brought it up, as it contracdicts your earlier contention of continued U.S. Superiority.  Again, "our interests" are out of control of the conservative agenda probably the rest of our lives.  Thus....   

I understand you wanting to be bullish, but you might start to want to infuse a little reality in how the world is changing.

[bilo]

We are 180 on our level of optimistic.  You still think a 150% GDP on debt, and $32T is sustainable?  A lot of what you are countering is based on static data, and not trending of geo-political-economic realites.  That energy resources you tout, are at the mercy of 50%+ of the electorate who have bought into the enviro-scam, lock stock and barrell.  Add the fact these same are entitlement junkies, the chance of dislodging their dim leaders are basically zero.

OPEC and customer base via our EV push?  There is always a rule of thumb in commerce and capitalism.  Economic alliances are always among the strongest and friendliest.  Don't forget that OPEC has had a record and history since the 1970's to fight back to those who threaten their interests.  Our GND slant, and untapped energy puts us at odds no matter what.

Taiwan and high end chips?  You really don't believe that Taiwan will be a Chicom province likely in the next few years?  That just adds to the power.

And to the comment around their manufacturing....   Didn;t you read my comment last time?  This is being well planned and executed via proxy through the workforces in South America and Aftrica.  Well funded, underwritten, and subsidized.

I am glad that you do finally realize that the NWO scenario is unflolding, and was wondering why you brought it up, as it contracdicts your earlier contention of continued U.S. Superiority.  Again, "our interests" are out of control of the conservative agenda probably the rest of our lives.  Thus....   

I understand you wanting to be bullish, but you might start to want to infuse a little reality in how the world is changing.

I am at a loss how you come to the conclusion that because I state a fact that our military is the best in the world that I somehow support globalism.

Also, the idea that China supporting manufacturing in South America and Africa helps them doesn't take into account the unemployment problem they have internally.

I do not believe Taiwan will be conquered by China before we have increased our capability to manufacture high end chips in the USA.

As far as the govt debt goes and the looney left crazy green religion I think one of two things will happen. One, the left is so defeated at the election box that all their idiocy is dismantled, or two, we continue down the same path and a national divorce becomes inevitable. I'm hoping it's number one, but if it's number two we should still be okay because it's the red states where most of the work gets done.

[libertybele]

EU rejects Ukraine grain bans by Poland and Hungary

The European Commission has rejected bans introduced by Poland and Hungary on Ukrainian grain imports.

The two countries said the measures were necessary to protect their farming sectors from cheap imports.

The ban applies to grains, dairy products, sugar, fruit, vegetables and meats and will be in force until the end of June.

The Commission said it was not up to individual member states to make trade policy.

  While the Commission has said that unilateral moves will not be tolerated, it has not yet specified what measures it would take against Poland and Hungary.

"In such challenging times, it is crucial to coordinate and align all decisions within the EU," its spokesperson said in a statement.

Most Ukrainian grain is exported via the Black Sea, but Russia's invasion last year disrupted export routes and resulted in large quantities of the grain ending up in central Europe.

A deal with Russia, brokered by the UN and Turkey, allows Ukraine to continue exporting by sea - but Ukraine accuses Russia of slowing the process with over-zealous inspections....................

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65292698