Author Topic: Ukraine 3  (Read 164360 times)

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1525 on: January 03, 2023, 04:57:13 pm »
Sorry for not responding earlier -- I was out of town for the holiday.

Thank you for your reply @Maj. Bill Martin  A few thoughts and observations follow.

If the US Congress was still in the business of declaring war, I would give you this point. But, it's not.  So, what we have is a proxy war with Russia, and the line between this and a direct war is becoming increasingly thin.

I disagree with that completely.  I think it is a very clear, very bright line as to whether or not you have troops pulling triggers or not, and that certainly isn't either proven or obvious.  We're providing them weapons, intelligence, and out-of-country training.   Those things are incredibly valuable, but they're the same things that happened in innumerable conflicts during the Cold War, and both sides understood where those lines were drawn.  And I'm sure we have some of the usual military liaison people in terms of keeping us informed, but we don't have Vietnam-type "advisors" running around with maneuver battalions.  Seems a pretty clear, bright line to me.

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The same Russia we are now told is our most potent enemy is the same Russia who told Bush he was cancelling war games right after the attacks on 911 and offered assistance with intelligence gathering, ----- that warned us a year before the Boston marathon attack.  Russia also fought ISIS in Syria and has given Israel near carte blanche to enter Syrian airspace to destroy Iranian weapons stored there.

First, I don't believe they are our most potent enemy.  China is.  Nor do I believe that Russia's goals in 2001 were the same as they are today.  Putin back then saw NATO as a potential avenue for Russia to maintain hegemony as the largest European member of the alliance.  Once Putin learned that Russia would have to follow the same process and meet the same standards as everyone else to join NATO, he balked and reversed course.

Russia wasn't in Syria to help us.  They couldn't have cared less about either us or ISIS in isolation.  Putin sent Russian troops to their proxy state of Syria to help his long-time fellow dictator Assad and that's it.  And regionally, Russia has been screwing us in terms of Iran for a very long-time now because they see Iran as a useful regional antagonist of the U.S..  It was Russia who opposed sanctions, pushed for the least possible inspections, , and undermined every effort made to try to get a tough anti-nuclear agreement with Iran.

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Why is Russia, but not China, enemy number one?

As I said, Russia isn't.  China is, but China is watching very closely how the West responds to Russia aggression.

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Are not the WEF and China greater threats to our freedoms?

Since this entire war started, I am at a complete loss to understand the obsession with the WEF, which never wanted this war in the first place.  This war actually has undermined the WEF's goals of "globalism" and going green.  And this war actually enhances our ability to stand up to China because it is strengthening the alliance of the most advanced nations in the world to resist aggression.

It's the same thing when people saw "why are we more concerned with the borders in Ukraine than our own southern border", as if the Biden Administration was interested in enforcing the southern border before the war in Ukraine.  The issues simply aren't related.  You oppose the ideals of the WEF through domestic economic legislation, and you secure the southern border by building a wall, hiring more guards, changing asylum law, etc..  And those things are completely independent of whether or not we send weapons to Ukraine.

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BREAKING: Tony Blinken just said the US couldn’t be supporting Ukraine right now if they were still in Afghanistan and has no ability to support 2 allies at once"  (Video)

I don't understand the relevance of that.  Afghanistan and Ukraine are both ground-combat intensive conflicts. A potential conflict with China would involve, overwhelmingly, air and naval assets, which simply aren't involved at all in Ukraine.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2023, 05:02:48 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1526 on: January 03, 2023, 06:07:28 pm »
Sorry for not responding earlier -- I was out of town for the holiday.

I disagree with that completely.  I think it is a very clear, very bright line as to whether or not you have troops pulling triggers or not, and that certainly isn't either proven or obvious.  We're providing them weapons, intelligence, and out-of-country training.   Those things are incredibly valuable, but they're the same things that happened in innumerable conflicts during the Cold War, and both sides understood where those lines were drawn.  And I'm sure we have some of the usual military liaison people in terms of keeping us informed, but we don't have Vietnam-type "advisors" running around with maneuver battalions.  Seems a pretty clear, bright line to me.

First, I don't believe they are our most potent enemy.  China is.  Nor do I believe that Russia's goals in 2001 were the same as they are today.  Putin back then saw NATO as a potential avenue for Russia to maintain hegemony as the largest European member of the alliance.  Once Putin learned that Russia would have to follow the same process and meet the same standards as everyone else to join NATO, he balked and reversed course.

Russia wasn't in Syria to help us.  They couldn't have cared less about either us or ISIS in isolation.  Putin sent Russian troops to their proxy state of Syria to help his long-time fellow dictator Assad and that's it.  And regionally, Russia has been screwing us in terms of Iran for a very long-time now because they see Iran as a useful regional antagonist of the U.S..  It was Russia who opposed sanctions, pushed for the least possible inspections, , and undermined every effort made to try to get a tough anti-nuclear agreement with Iran.

As I said, Russia isn't.  China is, but China is watching very closely how the West responds to Russia aggression.

Since this entire war started, I am at a complete loss to understand the obsession with the WEF, which never wanted this war in the first place.  This war actually has undermined the WEF's goals of "globalism" and going green.  And this war actually enhances our ability to stand up to China because it is strengthening the alliance of the most advanced nations in the world to resist aggression.

It's the same thing when people saw "why are we more concerned with the borders in Ukraine than our own southern border", as if the Biden Administration was interested in enforcing the southern border before the war in Ukraine.  The issues simply aren't related.  You oppose the ideals of the WEF through domestic economic legislation, and you secure the southern border by building a wall, hiring more guards, changing asylum law, etc..  And those things are completely independent of whether or not we send weapons to Ukraine.

I don't understand the relevance of that.  Afghanistan and Ukraine are both ground-combat intensive conflicts. A potential conflict with China would involve, overwhelmingly, air and naval assets, which simply aren't involved at all in Ukraine.



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Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1527 on: January 03, 2023, 11:53:34 pm »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1528 on: January 04, 2023, 12:07:03 am »
Even more amazing is the fact that this is the same Kremlin a tad over 60 years ago was beating us in the Space Race. 

No country (USSR)  in my lifetime has lost more prestige and power.


I fear we are in a 'hold my beer...' moment here if we don't get some decent conservative people having some influence on our Government.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1529 on: January 04, 2023, 02:35:28 pm »
Putin is facing 'a quick military catastrophe' with his army in an impossible situation where both attacking or defending will cause further defeats, former Russian defence minister warns

By WILL STEWART and CHRIS JEWERS FOR MAILONLINE
4 January 2023

Vladimir Putin is leading Russia towards revolution, making the same catastrophic military mistakes as Russia did in 1917, warns a leading pro-Kremlin war analyst.

His army is at the point of no return where he loses if it attacks and if it retreats, said Igor Strelkov, a former FSB colonel and ex-defence minister of self-styled Donetsk People's Republic in Russian-occupied Ukraine.

'Intelligent people have come to the conclusion that, in the current situation, Russia is in a complete Zugzwang,' he said, in reference to a chess dilemma in which a player is put at a disadvantage because of their obligation to move.

The word is German for 'compulsion to move'. 'It is impossible to keep on defending because it quickly worsens [our] strategic position,' Strelkov said. 'And it is impossible to attack, since this is fraught with a quick military catastrophe.'

He warned: 'The combat effectiveness and morale of the army is strongly reminiscent of the same before the July 1917 offensive of [Alexander] Kerensky.'

Strelkov - real name Igor Girkin - was one of the key players in Putin seizing control of Crimea in 2014, and subjugating Ukrainian region Donetsk the same year. He has key support among army and secret services commanders below the top level.

He has long criticised the Russian leader's current war strategy, and demanded the rushed mobilisation of one million more fighters to defeat Ukraine, as well as a clear-cut of Putin's top commanders and defence ministers.

In his latest critique, he said: 'There is not a word said about the Kremlin going for radical personnel changes and other necessary reforms.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11597799/Putin-facing-quick-military-catastrophe-former-Russian-defence-minister-warns.html

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1530 on: January 04, 2023, 10:24:19 pm »
Even more amazing is the fact that this is the same Kremlin a tad over 60 years ago was beating us in the Space Race. 

@catfish1957

Only because their spies were stealing our research,and then cutting corners to beat us to orbit.

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1531 on: January 04, 2023, 10:27:04 pm »
@catfish1957

Only because their spies were stealing our research,and then cutting corners to beat us to orbit.

Creativity does NOT flourish under Communism. Never has,never will.

They captured German rocket engineers/scientist as the end of the war.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1532 on: January 04, 2023, 10:28:23 pm »
Iranian-made drone deployed by Russia in Ukraine contained parts made by 13 US companies and components from other Western countries - as Biden launches 'all hands on deck' task force

By KEITH GRIFFITH FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
4 January 2023

A Ukrainian intelligence assessment has found that a single Iranian-made attack drone launched by Russia contained parts made by more than a dozen US companies.

The Iranian Shahed-136 drone, downed during an attack last fall, contained 40 components manufactured by 13 different American companies, according to a CNN report citing the assessment.

For months, Russia has been hammering Ukraine's civilian infrastructure with waves of drone attacks, which are designed to overwhelm air defenses and demoralize the population.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11598729/Iranian-drone-deployed-Russia-Ukraine-contained-parts-13-companies.html

Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1533 on: January 04, 2023, 10:33:07 pm »
Iranian-made drone deployed by Russia in Ukraine contained parts made by 13 US companies and components from other Western countries - as Biden launches 'all hands on deck' task force

By KEITH GRIFFITH FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
4 January 2023

A Ukrainian intelligence assessment has found that a single Iranian-made attack drone launched by Russia contained parts made by more than a dozen US companies.

The Iranian Shahed-136 drone, downed during an attack last fall, contained 40 components manufactured by 13 different American companies, according to a CNN report citing the assessment.

That $1.7 billion in cash from the Obama Administration certainly came in handy.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1534 on: January 04, 2023, 11:56:00 pm »
That $1.7 billion in cash from the Obama Administration certainly came in handy.

Yes, it did.

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1535 on: January 05, 2023, 03:49:20 am »
Ukraine hits Russian command center in Tokmak, Zaporizhia, killing approximately 80 Russian soldiers.


https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1610238630101909507
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 03:51:28 am by Hoodat »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1536 on: January 05, 2023, 04:03:44 am »
They captured German rocket engineers/scientist as the end of the war.

@DB

Clearly that was what got them going,same as it got the US going,but without traitors like the Rosenbergs,they would have never been able to accomplish the successful launch of Sputnik.

The only good news out of this is the Rosenbergs were caught,found guilty of treason and espionage at trial,and both were executed.

Today they would probably just be deported with their life savings.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1537 on: January 05, 2023, 04:16:42 am »
Ukraine hits Russian command center in Tokmak, Zaporizhia, killing approximately 80 Russian soldiers.


https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1610238630101909507

That's one of the places that almost certainly would be an intermediate objective if Ukraine was going to make a move on Melitopol.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1538 on: January 05, 2023, 01:49:25 pm »
The race to overthrow Putin and take his Kremlin crown has begun, says former Russian defence minister who warned Moscow is facing 'military catastrophe'

By WILL STEWART FOR MAILONLINE
5 January 2023

The race to overthrow Vladimir Putin and grab his crown is underway, says Russian war analyst and former loyalist Igor Strelkov.

'The fight for the political Olympus has begun between the groupings that surround Putin,' he said.

Strelkov - a former FSB colonel key to Putin's annexation of Crimea and subjugation of the Donetsk region of Ukraine in 2014 - is now a staunch critic of the Kremlin's war strategy.

An immediate mass mobilisation of half a million more men is the only way for Putin to avoid defeat and ignominy in the war in Ukraine, he claims.

He spoke amid claims Putin has approved in principle a huge new mobilisation drive.

The fight at the top of the Kremlin focuses on insurgent Putin crony Yevgeny Prigozhin, head of the Wagner private army, and loyalist forces in the defence ministry around weakening defence minister Sergei Shoigu, according to Strelkov.

Others believe security apparatchiks around ex-FSB head Nikolai Patrushev - secretary of the powerful security council - are more likely to pull the trigger on Putin in a bid to save the elite ruling circle if the war continues to go wrong.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11601677/The-race-overthrow-Putin-Kremlin-crown-begun-says-former-Russian-loyalist.html

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1539 on: January 05, 2023, 01:51:26 pm »
Putin tells Ukraine he is ready for peace talks - but only if Kyiv accepts 'new territorial realities'

By CHRIS JEWERS FOR MAILONLINE and AFP
5 January 2023

Vladimir Putin told Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan he was open to dialogue with Ukraine, but only if Kyiv accepts 'new territorial realities'.

Russian troops occupy large swathes of eastern and southern Ukraine. The Kremlin claims it has annexed the Donetsk, Lugansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson regions despite not controlling them in their entirety.

The Kremlin said on Thursday that Putin told Erdogan peace talks are possible, but only if Ukraine accepts that territories occupied by Moscow as Russian.

'Putin again confirmed Russia's openness to serious dialogue on the condition of Kyiv authorities fulfilling the well-known and repeatedly voiced requirements of taking into account the new territorial realities,' the Kremlin said in a statement.

Erdogan had called for peace talks in the phone call with Putin, his office said earlier.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11602315/Putin-tells-Ukraine-ready-peace-talks-Kyiv-accepts-territorial-realities.html

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1540 on: January 05, 2023, 04:23:19 pm »
The race to overthrow Putin and take his Kremlin crown has begun, says former Russian defence minister who warned Moscow is facing 'military catastrophe'

By WILL STEWART FOR MAILONLINE
5 January 2023

The race to overthrow Vladimir Putin and grab his crown is underway, says Russian war analyst and former loyalist Igor Strelkov.

'The fight for the political Olympus has begun between the groupings that surround Putin,' he said.

Strelkov - a former FSB colonel key to Putin's annexation of Crimea and subjugation of the Donetsk region of Ukraine in 2014 - is now a staunch critic of the Kremlin's war strategy.

An immediate mass mobilisation of half a million more men is the only way for Putin to avoid defeat and ignominy in the war in Ukraine, he claims.

He spoke amid claims Putin has approved in principle a huge new mobilisation drive.

The fight at the top of the Kremlin focuses on insurgent Putin crony Yevgeny Prigozhin, head of the Wagner private army, and loyalist forces in the defence ministry around weakening defence minister Sergei Shoigu, according to Strelkov.

Others believe security apparatchiks around ex-FSB head Nikolai Patrushev - secretary of the powerful security council - are more likely to pull the trigger on Putin in a bid to save the elite ruling circle if the war continues to go wrong.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11601677/The-race-overthrow-Putin-Kremlin-crown-begun-says-former-Russian-loyalist.html

@Kamaji

DING,DING,DING,DING! And we have a winnah!

Anybody that thinks the elites in the Kremin are going to risk THEIR positions in order to merely arrest Putin is nuts. IMHO,he is not going to live long enough to face a trial once they decide they have no choice but to remove him.

They will execute him and then either declare he died of the various ailments/diseases he suffers from,or they will declare he died of something like a heart attack. A VERY big deal will be made about his state funeral,and they will all be there weeping crocodile tears as his hearse passes through Red Square.

They will then name a successor that is more moderate so they can then pull out of Ukraine and claim they never wanted to invade in the first place,and it was a horrible mistake made by Putin due to his advisors giving him bad information.

And,of course,by then his closest advisors will have all been shot in the basement of the Lubyanka prison,so there will be no one around to challenge the narrative.
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Online catfish1957

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1541 on: January 05, 2023, 04:29:53 pm »
@Kamaji

DING,DING,DING,DING! And we have a winnah!

Anybody that thinks the elites in the Kremin are going to risk THEIR positions in order to merely arrest Putin is nuts. IMHO,he is not going to live long enough to face a trial once they decide they have no choice but to remove him.

They will execute him and then either declare he died of the various ailments/diseases he suffers from,or they will declare he died of something like a heart attack. A VERY big deal will be made about his state funeral,and they will all be there weeping crocodile tears as his hearse passes through Red Square.

They will then name a successor that is more moderate so they can then pull out of Ukraine and claim they never wanted to invade in the first place,and it was a horrible mistake made by Putin due to his advisors giving him bad information.

And,of course,by then his closest advisors will have all been shot in the basement of the Lubyanka prison,so there will be no one around to challenge the narrative.

Got to admit though, a Putin coup and a Uke withdraw might be some of the best news we've seen in the last 5 years.

Not holding my breath though.  Russian leaders entrench themselves with castle moat ferocity.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1542 on: January 05, 2023, 04:47:58 pm »
Got to admit though, a Putin coup and a Uke withdraw might be some of the best news we've seen in the last 5 years.


@catfish1957

I honestly can't think of anything that would top it.


Not holding my breath though.  Russian leaders entrench themselves with castle moat ferocity.


True,but I don't care who you are or what office you hold,when it comes to YOUR survival of the survival of your "loyal" underlings,YOU are in a HEAP of freaking trouble.

Bureaucrats value NOTHING more than their own survival and positions,and the more power and influence a bureaucrat has,the more they value and the more they are willing to do to protect it.

And this goes times 100 in a virtual slave society like the USSR,where the ones at the top have nowhere to go but to the gallows if they lose their positions because you can bet your Biden whoever replaces them has "Imprison and execute XXX ASAP" at the top of HIS agenda in order to make sure HE doesn't get executed.

Remember,the ONLY "justice" in the neo-Soviet Union is whatever the Politburo Members deem it to be and if you think THEY are casual about keeping THEIR positions,you just haven't been paying any attention.
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1543 on: January 05, 2023, 05:48:24 pm »
Putin is in no position that make demands.

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1544 on: January 05, 2023, 07:07:27 pm »
Putin orders 1-day ceasefire; Ukraine rejects ‘trap’

https://americanmilitarynews.com/2023/01/putin-orders-1-day-ceasefire-in-ukraine-reports/

Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered a one-day ceasefire in his now-10-month invasion of Ukraine that aligns with the Orthodox Christmas.

Putin instructed his top military leader, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, to order troops to hold fire for 36 hours, starting at noon on Friday and ending at midnight Saturday, Reuters reported. That’s when Christmas is observed on the Orthodox Christian calendar used in Russia and Ukraine.

A senior aide to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Mykhailo Podolyak, appeared to reject notions of a Christmas truce on Twitter.

“[The Russian Federation] must leave the occupied territories – only then will it have a ‘temporary truce,’” Podolyak tweeted. “Keep hypocrisy to yourself.”

More at link.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1545 on: January 05, 2023, 07:34:38 pm »
Putin instructed his top military leader, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, to order troops to hold fire for 36 hours, starting at noon on Friday and ending at midnight Saturday, Reuters reported. That’s when Christmas is observed on the Orthodox Christian calendar used in Russia and Ukraine.

The Orthodox Church of Ukraine had moved Christmas to Dec 25 last year.  And Putin bombed/shelled the hell out of them.
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Offline berdie

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1546 on: January 05, 2023, 09:10:26 pm »
Putin tells Ukraine he is ready for peace talks - but only if Kyiv accepts 'new territorial realities'

By CHRIS JEWERS FOR MAILONLINE and AFP
5 January 2023

Vladimir Putin told Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan he was open to dialogue with Ukraine, but only if Kyiv accepts 'new territorial realities'.

Russian troops occupy large swathes of eastern and southern Ukraine. The Kremlin claims it has annexed the Donetsk, Lugansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson regions despite not controlling them in their entirety.

The Kremlin said on Thursday that Putin told Erdogan peace talks are possible, but only if Ukraine accepts that territories occupied by Moscow as Russian.

'Putin again confirmed Russia's openness to serious dialogue on the condition of Kyiv authorities fulfilling the well-known and repeatedly voiced requirements of taking into account the new territorial realities,' the Kremlin said in a statement.

Erdogan had called for peace talks in the phone call with Putin, his office said earlier.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11602315/Putin-tells-Ukraine-ready-peace-talks-Kyiv-accepts-territorial-realities.html



Doesn't seem like sincere peace talks to me.

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1547 on: January 05, 2023, 09:20:03 pm »


Doesn't seem like sincere peace talks to me.

It isn't.  This is exactly how O'Bastard gave Crimea to Russia in 2014.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1548 on: January 05, 2023, 10:23:22 pm »
It isn't.  This is exactly how O'Bastard gave Crimea to Russia in 2014.

@Cyber Liberty

"GAVE"??????

What makes you so sure he would go against his nature and NOT charge a fee for his services?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 10:46:44 pm by sneakypete »
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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1549 on: January 05, 2023, 10:35:37 pm »
@Cyber Liberty

"GAVE"??????

What makes you so sure he would go against his nature and charge a fee for his services?

I stand corrected @sneakypete"Sold."
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