Ukraine 3

[Right_in_Virginia]

You telling me all those 'Nazis' wanted to be overrun by Russia?

Nope.  I'm saying the citizens of the Donbas wanted an end to the death and destruction rained down on them for almost a decade by the Azoz Battalion at the orders from the Ukrainian government in Kiev --- prompting the Donbas to twice vote for independence.     Remember when we understood the need for independence?

[sneakypete]

C'mon, man, some folks just want 'peace in our time'.

I agree. Move fast, strike hard, and do not stop until the invaders are repulsed.

Biden's sandbagging, including slowing the delivery of the Polish jets when they could have been tearing up troop columns, seems to be bent on extending the conflict instead of resolving it.

My bet is that the longer it goes, the better his chances of siphoning off funding that should have gone to benefit Ukraine in the form of weapons, ammunition, or humanitarian aid.

@Smokin Joe

Good guess!

As a wise man once noted,"Follow da Bejamin's!"

[Kamaji]

Putin brings in martial law in annexed Ukrainian territory amid fears he will move to full war footing and detonate a nuke over Black Sea - as 'General Armageddon' evacuates 60,000 people before Battle of Kherson

By CHRIS PLEASANCE FOR MAILONLINE
19 October 2022

Vladimir Putin has declared martial law in the occupied regions of Ukraine as officials begin evacuating civilians from the city of Kherson, with a battle for control of the stronghold now looming.

Putin said the order will come into effect from midnight tonight in Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions - giving him sweeping powers to curtail the freedoms of civilians, repurpose industries and potentially press-gang Ukrainians into his army to fight against their fellow countrymen.

The order also affects occupied Crimea and Krasnodar, Belgorod, Bryansk, Voronezh, Kursk, and Rostov, all of which are on Russia's own territory bordering Ukraine, though stops short of full martial law in these areas.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11331035/Fears-Putin-declare-war-Ukraine-resort-nukes-Kherson-look-set-fall.html

[Kamaji]

Russia's military leadership is 'increasingly dysfunctional', with a 'worsening shortage of capable officers' and four of the five commanding generals fired since war began, MoD reveals

By CHRIS PLEASANCE FOR MAILONLINE
19 October 2022

Russia's military leadership is 'increasingly dysfunctional' with the war in Ukraine being spearheaded by rookie officers as Putin's forces are beaten back on the battlefield.

Four out of five of Russia's top generals have been sacked since the start of the war, Britain's Ministry of Defence said today, with Sergei Surovikin now in charge.

'Their replacements have so far done little to improve Russia's battlefield performance', the MoD added, as Surovikin appeared to be preparing for a retreat from the southern stronghold of Kherson.

British spies did not name the four generals who had been sacked, but one of them is almost certain to be Valery Gerasimov - chief of the general staff who was last seen in a tense encounter with Putin during war games in eastern Russia.

The other three are likely to be Aleksandr Dvornikov, Surovikin's predecessor, Gennady Zhidko, former commander of Russia's southern armies, and Aleksandr Zhuravlev, who headed the western grouping.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11331639/Russias-leadership-increasingly-dysfunctional-worsening-shortage-capable-officers.html

[Hoodat]

Nope.  I'm saying the citizens of the Donbas wanted an end to the death and destruction rained down on them for almost a decade by the Azoz Battalion at the orders from the Ukrainian government in Kiev --- prompting the Donbas to twice vote for independence.     Remember when we understood the need for independence?

Lies, lies, and more lies.  This all started when Russian troops crossed over into Donbas in 2014.  The Azov Battalion ceased to exist by 2015.  All of these facts have been posted again and again.  Yet the lies continue.

Oh, and that Donbas vote?  That was a sham as well.  But then you knew that already since the facts of those referendums have been posted here repeatedly.  Unless you consider including online votes cast in Russia as having legitimacy in the affairs of Ukraine.

2014 Donbas status referendums

Referendums on the status of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, parts of Ukraine that together make up the Donbas region, were claimed to have taken place on 11 May 2014 in many towns under the control of the Russian-controlled Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics.[1][2] These referendums intended to legitimise the establishment of the so-called "republics," in the context of the Russian invasion of Crimea and rising pro-Russian unrest in the aftermath of the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution.[2] In addition, a counter-referendum on accession to Dnipropetrovsk Oblast was held in some Ukrainian-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.[3][4][5]

The results of the separatist referendums were not officially recognised by any government, including those of Ukraine, the United States, and the countries of the European Union[6] The Ukrainian government said that the referendum was illegal, and a number of nations—such as Germany, the United States, France, and Britain—said that the referendum was unconstitutional and lacked legitimacy. The Russian government expressed "respect" for the results and urged a "civilised" implementation, and later announced recognition of the republics on 21 February 2022, becoming the first UN member state to do so.  .  .

Allegations of fraud

The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) released an audio recording on 5 May that they said was a phone call between a Donetsk separatist leader named Dima Boitsov, and the leader of the far-right paramilitary Russian National Unity group Alexander Barkashov. In the recording, Boitsov said he wanted to postpone the referendum due to the DPR's inability to control all of Donetsk Oblast. Barkashov said that he had communicated with Putin, and insisted Boitsov hold the referendum regardless of the separatist leader's concerns. He suggested that Boitsov tabulate the results as 89% in favour of autonomy.[26] [27] Separatists stated that the recording was fake.[28] However, the 89% mentioned in the phone call exactly match the result of the referendum, which took place on 11 May 2014, i.e. several days after the recording had been published.

Swiss newspaper Tages-Anzeiger reported that voters were able to vote as many times as they wanted.[29] Internal Affairs ministry officials branded the vote a farce, and said that just over 32 percent of registered voters in Donetsk Oblast participated in the vote.[30]

According to Andrei Buzin, co-chair of GOLOS Association, there were significant irregularities in the organisation and holding of the referendum.[31]

Polling day
The day before the referendum, it was reported in Ukrainian media that a group of pro-Russian separatists in possession of a 100,000 ballots already marked with a 'yes' vote for the referendum were captured during the ongoing government "anti-terrorist" operation, and that the ballots were seized by government forces. Local news reported that polling in some occupied schools had already begun a day in advance.[28][48][49]

A campaign of intimidation, beatings, and hostage taking has forced many pro-Ukrainian activists and known opponents of secession to Russia to flee the region, leaving the referendum to take place without any dissent or opposing voices. At least 24 people were being held by insurgents in Donetsk region at the time of the referendum, according to Human Rights Watch.[50] CNN reported seeing some voters vote more than once at ballot boxes.[51] When interviewing voters at a polling station in Donetsk, VICE News crew were detained for three hours by masked men with assault rifles who demanded their memory cards.[52]

The referendum began early on 10 May in Mariupol, which according to the separatist group's election official Sergey Beshulya was due to the possibility of Ukrainian security forces returning.[53] Other locations also reported early voting in some areas.[48] For the remainder of the province, polling began at 8:00 a.m. on 11 May. Donetsk and Luhansk residents living in Russia were able to cast their votes in Moscow.[54] Non-binding votes were also cast abroad, including in Barcelona as a show of support.[55] Local news sources claimed that many residents did not intend to vote while others did not know where polling stations were located.[54]

Clear ballot boxes were used, following protocol of national Ukrainian elections
Many of the voters were not on the registration lists but were allowed to vote after showing identification documents. A CNN crew saw several people vote twice at one polling station,[56] and the BBC filmed a woman putting two ballot papers into the same box.[57] Reporters with German newspaper Bild followed a man that they said voted eight times. He was asked twice if he lived in Donetsk. He answered no, which the polling officials said was not a problem.[58] Referendum organisers reduced the number of voting stations, leading to long queues, which were then broadcast on Russian television as "proof" that voter turnout was high.[59] According to The Guardian, in Mariupol where clashes two days before the referendum between the Ukrainian National Guard and local anti-Kyiv protesters caused the deaths of at least 9, "there were huge queues of people, almost all of whom said they were voting yes to separatism".[60] In Mariupol, a city of 500,000, only four voting stations were open.[61]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums

Oh, and about those referendums you cite?  The alleged result was that the Russian-occupied Donbas territories would become independent states.  Yet Russia has now annexed those independent states.  Doesn't that violate the results of the very referendums you cite?  Explain how that works.

[Elderberry]

Putin declares martial law in four occupied regions as Kyiv presses offensive

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/19/europe/putin-russia-martial-law-intl/index.html

Russian President Vladimir Putin announced on Wednesday that he has signed a law introducing martial law in four Ukrainian regions the Kremlin claims to have annexed, in violation of international law.

The regions are Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk. Russia does not control the entirety of those regions and is in a hasty retreat in Kherson after Ukrainian forces regained territory there.

But Putin nonetheless said he would impose the policy during a scheduled Security Council meeting.

Russian-installed leaders in Kherson region earlier Wednesday began massively ramping up the relocation of up to 60,000 people amid warnings over Russia’s ability to withstand a Ukrainian counter-offensive.

“In this regard, let me remind you that in the Donetsk People’s Republic, the Luhansk People’s Republic, as well as in the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, martial law was in effect before joining Russia,” Putin said during a televised address.

“Now we need to formalize this regime within the framework of Russian legislation,” he said.

“Therefore, I signed a decree on the introduction of martial law in these four subjects of the Russian Federation, so it will be immediately sent to the Federation Council,” Putin said.

More at link.

[Bigun]

I knew not to post to this thread and did it anyway 

[Kamaji]

I knew not to post to this thread and did it anyway 

Feeling better?

[Bigun]

Feeling better?

Not really, but it's on me so no worries.

[Kamaji]

Not really, but it's on me so no worries.

[240B]

[240B]

[Kamaji]

[Hoodat]

Putin introduces martial law in four illegally annexed regions

Holly Ellyatt  |  5 hours ago

President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday introduced martial law in the four regions of Ukraine that Russia illegally annexed last month.

Martial law will be introduced in Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia — regions in Ukraine that Moscow claimed as Russian territory following sham referendums in September that Ukraine and its allies have condemned as illegal and illegitimate.

The decree, announced as Putin addressed a meeting of the Russian Security Council on Wednesday, will likely mean that the regions’ civil administrations will be replaced by military ones.

Putin said all those regions should ensure that steps are taken to safeguard “critically important facilities” and said he had made the decision due to Kyiv’s refusal to recognize the annexation of the four areas.

“Constitutional laws on the admission of four new regions into the Russian Federation have come into force. The Kyiv regime, as you know, refused to recognize the will and choice of people, rejects any proposals for negotiations. On the contrary, shelling continues. Civilians are dying,” Putin said, according to comments reported by Russian state news agency Tass.

Putin said he had signed a decree on the introduction of martial law in these four regions and this will now be sent for approval by the Federation Council, or Senate.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/19/putin-introduces-martial-law-in-illegally-annexed-ukrainian-regions.html

[Hoodat]

https://twitter.com/Podolyak_M/status/1582712376758964227

[Hoodat]

[Kamaji]

World Reputation should be one of the listed casualties as well.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Oh, and that Donbas vote?  That was a sham as well. 

Relax.... by now most rational adults understand you consider all information you don't like to be "a sham"  -----  turning this @Hoodat dominated thread into a colossal waste of time. 

[berdie]

Relax.... by now most rational adults understand you consider all information you don't like to be "a sham"  -----  turning this @Hoodat dominated thread into a colossal waste of time.

I don't find that to be so at all. It's how I keep up with what is going on over there. I'm sure most that read this thread appreciate your contributions @Right_in_Virginia  as well as @Hoodat . Other members post here with news as well.

[Hoodat]

Relax.... by now most rational adults understand you consider all information you don't like to be "a sham"  -----

I provided links to back it up.  Where are yours?

[Hoodat]

This from CNN - Russia

Independent observers from the Russian Federation did not recognize the Donetsk poll

13 мая 2014

A poll of the population in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine, which its organizers called a referendum and on the basis of the results of which they declared the independence of these regions, raises great doubts about the legitimacy - such a statement was made in Moscow at a press conference by Russian independent experts.

The press conference, which took place in the Rosbalt agency, was attended by State Duma deputy Ilya Ponomarev, leader of the movement "For Human Rights" Lev Ponomarev, as well as the head of the Interregional Association of Voters, co-chairman of the movement "GOLOS" Andrei Buzin. All of them were at the time of the referendum in Donbass.

Thus, according to Andrei Buzin, the violations in the organization and holding of this referendum were so great that "there is no need to talk about turnout." At the same time, according to the expert, its organizers decided that the results of the referendum will be valid for any turnout, which, according to the expert, contradicts all world practice.

Nevertheless, as both Ilya Ponomarev and Lev Ponomarev have stated, Kiev should begin negotiations with separatist leaders in the name of calm, despite all doubts about the legitimacy of the referendum results.

Moscow reacted favorably to this survey, however, the Kremlin's press service said that it now expects the practical implementation of the results of the referendums, which should take place "without any recurrence of violence through a dialogue between representatives of Kiev, Donetsk and Lugansk."

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine stated that the referendum has no legal significance and its results will not have any legal consequences for the territorial integrity and structure of Ukraine.

The European Union also categorically did not accept the results of the survey in two regions of the eastern part of Ukraine.

"Turnout cannot be determined"

Ilya Ponomarev called the turnout in the referendum "large", making a reservation that the 70 percent that the organizers are talking about "do not exist at all."

According to his own estimates, in the two referendums the turnout was about 40 percent, which, however, is quite a lot.

At the same time, he noted that those queues in front of polling stations, which fell into the lenses of television cameras, were created artificially, since there were too few polling stations.

Andriy Buzin said that the provision according to which the results of the polls will be valid for all citizens of Ukraine and state bodies without any approval in any turnout does not correspond to the world practice of holding referendums and is likely to cause great claims.

He explained that, usually, in particular in Russia, during referendums their result is recognized only with a 50 percent turnout.

At the same time, according to Andrei Buzin, it is simply impossible to make any objective opinion about the turnout in referendums in two areas.

"It is impossible to verify this for sure, no one will ever know what the turnout was. I am sure that the official election commission does not know this, since they did not have the opportunity to collect this data from all points," Ilya Ponomarev supported him.

https://www.bbc.com/russian/international/2014/05/140513_russian_experts_donbass_vote

[Cyber Liberty]

I don't find that to be so at all. It's how I keep up with what is going on over there. I'm sure most that read this thread appreciate your contributions @Right_in_Virginia  as well as @Hoodat . Other members post here with news as well.

Yes!  It's why I will keep this thread alive.

[Hoodat]

Polls close in eastern Ukraine amid allegations of fraud and double-voting

Atika Shubert and Ben Brumfield, CNN  |  Updated 4:13 PM EDT, Sun May 11, 2014

Donetsk, Ukraine
CNN
 —
Pro-Russian activists in eastern Ukraine insisted Saturday that a controversial referendum on greater autonomy will go ahead – despite calls from Kiev and Moscow not to hold the vote amid soaring tensions.

Voters in the city of Donetsk faced this question on the ballot: “Do you support the Act of Independence of the People’s Republic of Donetsk?” The options are “yes” or “no.” A similar question is being put to voters in Luhansk.

Many of the voters were not on the outdated registration lists but were allowed to vote after showing identification documents.

There also seemed to be no system in place to prevent one person from voting at multiple polling stations.

A CNN crew saw several people vote twice at one polling station, where the ballot boxes were decorated with new Donetsk independence flags.

There was also a report of video showing three men arrested near Slovyansk with boxes of “yes” ballots in their car.

But in a Sunday afternoon news conference, the head of the People’s Republic of Donetsk Central Election Committee, Boris Litvinov, disputed reports that people were voting twice in some areas. Litivinov said the lines were so long that many people had a hard time voting once, let alone twice.

He also denied the report about ballot fraud. Litvinov said there was no reason for pro-Russian activists to cheat because voter turnout was so high.

The polls were told to stay open for 14 hours, rather than the usual 12, to allow time to add people to the voter list if necessary, the election committee said, adding that access to the most recent electoral rolls has been barred by Kiev.

Litvinov was the official to announce that polls had closed. Results are expected later.

Two incidents heightened tensions at polling places Sunday.

Rubber bullets were fired into the air at a station in Donetsk, said election committee member Sergey Tretyakov.

Tretyakov also said police in Krasnoarmeysk tried to prevent people from voting.

The central government in Kiev has declared the polls illegal.

Russia’s mixed messages

The message coming from Moscow on the referendum appears mixed.

Russian police officers oversaw voting at a Moscow polling station erected for expat Ukrainians to vote in the Donetsk and Luhansk referendums.

But last week, Russian President Vladimir Putin also urged the pro-Russian sympathizers to delay the referendum to give dialogue “the conditions it needs to have a chance.”

Putin’s unexpected call appears to have dented the confidence of some pro-Russian activists.

However, representatives of the pro-Russian groups in Donetsk and Luhansk voted to go ahead with it.

Meanwhile, in Slovyansk, a Russian government-controlled TV channel was periodically showing a banner along the bottom of the screen that told viewers where they can vote in Sunday’s referendum.

That channel, Russia 24, is available over the air to residents of Donetsk, who can access it in their homes.

The banner listed the location and voting hours and advised voters to bring a passport. The banner was shown only on the Russia 24 channel, not on other channels.  .  .

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/11/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/

[berdie]

Yes!  It's why I will keep this thread alive.

And I thank you! It has to be a hard thread to moderate.

[Hoodat]

As you already know, @Right_in_Virginia , this 'vote' [sic] did not take place until AFTER Russian troops took control of these areas.

And then there's the matter of your blatant hypocrisy on this matter.  If this was really a vote for Donbas independence, then why did Russia just annex this territory?  You can't carry Putin's water by referring to this referendum as legit when Putin himself doesn't honor it.

Now, where are your links?