Ukraine 2

[240B]

<sigh>

Again for the umpteenth time, the grift isn't being spent in Ukraine.

Well of course! And the American grift wouldn't be spent on the wall. Trump knew that. Which is why he asked for 10X the amount actually needed. The point is the remaining amount after the politicians steal their cut. I am asking, do you want the remaining amount after the thieving politicians raid it to go to America or to Ukraine? Since the same one/tenth scale will apply to the wall or to Ukraine, I prefer American border security get the leftovers. Something is better than nothing.

[Hoodat]

Stalin also did this in 1941.

[Kamaji]

Well of course! And the American grift wouldn't be spent on the wall. Trump knew that. Which is why he asked for 10X the amount actually needed. The point is the remaining amount after the politicians steal their cut. I am asking, do you want the remaining amount after the thieving politicians raid it to go to America or to Ukraine? Since the same one/tenth scale will apply to the wall or to Ukraine, I prefer American border security get the leftovers. Something is better than nothing.

It's obviously going to Americans, exactly the same place it would be going if it were grift on the wall, or any other federal government project.  10% to the Big Guy.

[Hoodat]

I am asking, do you want the remaining amount after the thieving politicians raid it to go to America or to Ukraine?

What I want is for people who are upset about the graft to speak out against the graft.  Instead, I see people tacitly accept the graft while arguing about where the remaining 1% goes.

Since the same one/tenth scale will apply to the wall or to Ukraine

Uh, no.  The scale of the two are not comparable.  Trump's border wall money would not have been handed over to the State Department, HHS, DoD, or USAID.  It would have been earmarked for property acquisition and wall construction.

I prefer American border security get the leftovers.

I prefer American border security get the graft.  I'm not willing to accept a $8.7 billion payout to the State Department while the Ukraine military is left wanting for weaponry promised months ago.

[libertybele]

AMERICA FIRST. We need to secure our own borders period. This shouldn't even be an issue still, but it is.  Shameful.

[Kamaji]

AMERICA FIRST. We need to secure our own borders period. This shouldn't even be an issue still, but it is.  Shameful.

Well, why don't you mosey on up to D.C. and suggest to the president that he do so.

[Hoodat]

AMERICA FIRST. We need to secure our own borders period. This shouldn't even be an issue still, but it is.  Shameful.

See Logical Fallacies:  False Dilemma

[Kamaji]

See Logical Fallacies:  False Dilemma

[libertybele]

Well, why don't you mosey on up to D.C. and suggest to the president that he do so.

Why don't you mosey on down to the border and take a gander and then report back!  Be sure to make an appointment with border patrol so that they can give you a first hand tour.

[libertybele]

See Logical Fallacies:  False Dilemma

Seriously?   

[Kamaji]

Why don't you mosey on down to the border and take a gander and then report back!  Be sure to make an appointment with border patrol so that they can give you a first hand tour.

First, there is nobody here who thinks that the Southern Border is not a disaster and that something should be done about it, but the only person who can effectively do something about it is Biden, who has chosen not to do anything about it.

Accordingly, your complaints should be addressed to him, not to anyone here.

Secondly, as @Hoodat so kindly points out, you are persistently engaging in the logical fallacy of ginning up a false dilemma.  It is not a choice of either/or, both need to be addressed, and you have gone beyond the point of charity with your fixation on that false dilemma.

So, no, you can mosey on up to the White House and address your false dilemma to the person who could do something about it, and stop pretending that you are so much more moral than everyone else here who doesn't see things exactly the same way you do.

[mountaineer]

It is not a choice of either/or, both need to be addressed ...

That may be the question. Why is Ukraine solely up to the USA to "address"?

[Kamaji]

That may be the question. Why is Ukraine solely up to the USA to "address"?

Nobody said it was "solely" up to the U.S. to address, but the fact that others may be myopic doesn't justify the U.S. plucking its own eyes and refusing to see what is plainly before it.

And the Poles might be a little annoyed with such a parochial view over who's doing what regarding Russia right now.

[240B]

I live in America. America is my first concern. I don't give a single solitary SHIT about Ukraine. Sure it is bad. Sure it is a shame. But why is it MY problem!? Let Europe sort it out. Why is America (halfway across the globe) flying in with Trillions of our dollars to save Ukraine while deliberately and intentionally ignoring America and American interests. F**K Europe. It is their problem for them to fix. This has nothing to do with America.

Are there British troops in Ukraine? or Spanish, or French? NO! How is it America's responsibility to fix Europe. Let them sort it out. F**k all of this bullshit!

[Kamaji]

I live in America. America is my first concern. I don't give a single solitary SHIT about Ukraine. Sure it is bad. Sure it is a shame. But why is it MY problem. Let Europe sort it out. Why is America (halfway across the globe) flying in with Trillions of our dollars to save Ukraine while deliberately and intentionally ignoring America and American interests. F**K Europe. It is their problem for them to fix. This has nothing to do with America.

Are there British troops in Ukraine? or Spanish, or French? NO! How is it America's responsibility to fix Europe. Let them sort it out. F**k all of this bullshit!

Because isolationism worked so damned well the last couple of times it was tried.

[Hoodat]

That may be the question. Why is Ukraine solely up to the USA to "address"?

It isn't.  Other nations have been quite open in supporting Ukraine with military hardware.  On the other hand, the US is more culpable in that they were in the best position to prevent Russia's actions.  For years, they have dangled a huge carrot in Ukraine's face offering them NATO membership while at the same time throwing up obstacle after obstacle blocking their entry.  And then they completely sabotage NATO unity with their fiasco retreat from Afghanistan.  If instead the US had done absolutely nothing, Russia would be scraping by with $30/bbl oil and no hope of taking over Ukraine.

[240B]

Because isolationism worked so damned well the last couple of times it was tried.

And it has worked so well in every country in which America intervened. Such as Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and a dozen others. America's documented history on intervention is that they only make things much worse, spend billions of dollars, and then bail at the last minute leaving hundreds of thousands of people hanging.

[Hoodat]

I live in America. America is my first concern. I don't give a single solitary SHIT about Ukraine. Sure it is bad. Sure it is a shame. But why is it MY problem!? Let Europe sort it out. Why is America (halfway across the globe) flying in with Trillions of our dollars to save Ukraine while deliberately and intentionally ignoring America and American interests. F**K Europe. It is their problem for them to fix. This has nothing to do with America.

From a $40 billion aid package, our government is divvying out chunks of cash to other countries like Turkey, Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Germany, etc., in under the guise of "Ukrainian aid".  Yet not a word of complaint about any of that.  I wonder why?  And then there's all that State Dept largess that allows them to replenish their caviar stocks at all their embassies around the world.  And the DoD money that they are using to replenish the existing stocks of 30-year-old Soviet equipment that we are now handing off to Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Estonia, etc., with brand new US equipment.  Yet not a peep of complaint about that.  The only thing here that brought up any protest at all was the announcement - not the actual delivery, but the announcement of $0.4 billion in weapons being shipped to the Ukraine military which will be used to destroy ten times that amount in Russian equipment.

[Kamaji]

And it has worked so well in every country in which America intervened. Such as Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and a dozen others. America's documented history on intervention is that they only make things much worse, spend billions of dollars, and then bail at the last minute leaving hundreds of thousands of people hanging.

Yah, I think you missed a few interventions along the way.

[Kamaji]

From a $40 billion aid package, our government is divvying out chunks of cash to other countries like Turkey, Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Germany, etc., in under the guise of "Ukrainian aid".  Yet not a word of complaint about any of that.  I wonder why?  And then there's all that State Dept largess that allows them to replenish their caviar stocks at all their embassies around the world.  And the DoD money that they are using to replenish the existing stocks of 30-year-old Soviet equipment that we are now handing off to Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Estonia, etc., with brand new US equipment.  Yet not a peep of complaint about that.  The only thing here that brought up any protest at all was the announcement - not the actual delivery, but the announcement of $0.4 billion in weapons being shipped to the Ukraine military which will be used to destroy ten times that amount in Russian equipment.

[Hoodat]

And it has worked so well in every country in which America intervened. Such as Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and a dozen others.

Greece, Austria, East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Spain, etc.

[240B]

OK, so we are back to WWII now? That was a straight anomaly from God. WWII is gone and will never return. That America, that world, does not exist anymore. WWII was the very last American victory over anything, and it will never happen again.

[Kamaji]

OK, so we are back to WWII now? That was a straight anomaly from God. WWII is gone and will never return. That America, that world, does not exist anymore. WWII was the very last American victory over anything, and it will never happen again.

That was no anomaly.  The fact that the U.S. f**ked up in places like Afghanistan does not make WWII some sort of special sui generis case that will never arise again.

In fact, Ukraine is right now at this very point demonstrating exactly that point:  give them the tools to kick Russian a$$ and they will do it, without the need for U.S. intervention a'la Afghanistan, or Vietnam, or etc, etc, etc.

[240B]

F**k Ukraine. They either make it on their own with the help of Europe, or they will fall to the natural order of reality. If America was not such a weenie Mother Goose of the world, I think we would all see that Europe is strong enough to take care of themselves when challenged.

Look! All of this is much more critical to Europe than America. But as long as the stupid mule America is pulling the wagon, the rest of the horses will relax and let him do it.

[libertybele]

And it has worked so well in every country in which America intervened. Such as Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and a dozen others. America's documented history on intervention is that they only make things much worse, spend billions of dollars, and then bail at the last minute leaving hundreds of thousands of people hanging.

Exactly!