Author Topic: The End For Electric Cars? VW Develops New Hydrogen Technology: “2,000 Km On A Single Tank Of Fuel”!  (Read 1029 times)

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rebewranger

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The End For Electric Cars? VW Develops New Hydrogen Technology: “2,000 Km On A Single Tank Of Fuel”!
By P Gosselin on 12. April 2022

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VW may have developed a major hydrogen breakthrough…cars could travel 2000 km on a single tank of fuel.

VW often rails against hydrogen cars, but the German automaker is reported to have filed a patent that could mean a major breakthrough for hydrogen powered vehicles, reports Patrick Freiwa of the German Kreiszeitung here.

Though the latest trend has been electric cars, these have also a number of technical drawbacks like range, cost, mining and weight. Moreover there is also the problem of how to dispose of millions of tons of batteries at the end of their lives.

Files patent

http://notrickszone.com/#sthash.uBc77k0X.dyCnhsLQ.dpbs

rebewranger

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It won't replace electric cars simply because it gives too much control to individuals so t;he world swamp will have to take control over the natural gas industry so they can choke the public when they want.

Offline Bigun

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It won't replace electric cars simply because it gives too much control to individuals so t;he world swamp will have to take control over the natural gas industry so they can choke the public when they want.

Besides that, big oil, electric utilities, and all their hangers on will never allow it.  Same reason we don't nuclear power here on a grand scale.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Wingnut

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Just what we need millions of little VW Hindenburg's on wheels! /s
I am just a Technicolor Dream Cat riding this kaleidoscope of life.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Meh.

The whole discussion has migrated from the seminal issue.

Remember carbon? "Climate change"?



The CO2 airborne fraction has been decreasing overall since 1959.

Just maybe that isn't the problem and the whole premise is bogus?
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C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

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Quote
Just maybe that isn't the problem and the whole premise is bogus?

GEE! You really think so?    :happyhappy:  :mauslaff:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline rustynail

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 'there is also the problem of how to dispose of millions of tons of batteries at the end of their lives'.  Build Pyramids.

Offline Smokin Joe

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'there is also the problem of how to dispose of millions of tons of batteries at the end of their lives'.  Build Pyramids.
jumper over the bad cells and use them to electrify the border...
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Americans must not be indentured servants to the greedy Hydrogen Industry.  Instead, we need to be indentured servants to Big Lithium.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Americans must not be indentured servants to the greedy Hydrogen Industry.  Instead, we need to be indentured servants to Big Lithium.
The reason for all of this is supposedly "Climate Change".  That's what's cracking the whip.

...and why EVERYTHING is going to be more expensive (not just printing more money like it was going out of style).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline catfish1957

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Just what we need millions of little VW Hindenburg's on wheels! /s

Exactly.   On an industrial basis, I can tell you what Hydrogen can do.

It's got one nasty little habit of autoigniting even with no intiatior.  I think way in the future, when hydrocarbon is less avaiable, and technology somehow can contain the gas (fool-proof), that it might be the fuel of the future.   
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Offline GtHawk

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Just what we need millions of little VW Hindenburg's on wheels! /s
Well they are pushing flying cars.

Online Hoodat

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The End For Electric Cars? VW Develops New Hydrogen Technology: “2,000 Km On A Single Tank Of Fuel”!

That must be one big-ass fuel tank.

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I am not understanding how to reconcile these two parts of the article:

Despite VW having railed against hydrogen technology for cars, the automaker has “filed a patent for a special fuel cell with the Saxon company Kraftwerk Tubes GmbH,” thus making it clear that the auto giant is indeed pushing hydrogen technology. With the new technology from VW, the company looks to set itself apart from the rest of the field, which has focused on fuel cell technology.

According to the Kreiszeitung: “The main difference to the fuel cells of Hyundai and Toyota is that VW has set on a ceramic diaphragm instead of the usual plastic diaphragm and is the only manufacturer of this technology that produces the ceramic membrane in such a way that the fuel cell can be started quickly.

and

“We can travel up to 2,000 kilometers on a single tank of fuel,” says the VW engineer Sascha Kuhn.

If true, electric cars will be left in the dust.


Fuel cell cars are electric cars.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline DB

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I am not understanding how to reconcile these two parts of the article:

Despite VW having railed against hydrogen technology for cars, the automaker has “filed a patent for a special fuel cell with the Saxon company Kraftwerk Tubes GmbH,” thus making it clear that the auto giant is indeed pushing hydrogen technology. With the new technology from VW, the company looks to set itself apart from the rest of the field, which has focused on fuel cell technology.

According to the Kreiszeitung: “The main difference to the fuel cells of Hyundai and Toyota is that VW has set on a ceramic diaphragm instead of the usual plastic diaphragm and is the only manufacturer of this technology that produces the ceramic membrane in such a way that the fuel cell can be started quickly.

and

“We can travel up to 2,000 kilometers on a single tank of fuel,” says the VW engineer Sascha Kuhn.

If true, electric cars will be left in the dust.


Fuel cell cars are electric cars.

Yep. A fuel cell is just a different kind of battery. The energy "charge" is stored as hydrogen.

Offline Texas Yellow Rose

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2000 km   That's 1242.74238 miles.  I'd love to see that happen!

Offline catfish1957

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2000 km   That's 1242.74238 miles.  I'd love to see that happen!

Considering Hydrogen has 300 BTU/scf, and natural gas 1030 BTU/scf, I am still trying to figure out how an engine could be built or configured to be that efficent.
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Offline DB

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Considering Hydrogen has 300 BTU/scf, and natural gas 1030 BTU/scf, I am still trying to figure out how an engine could be built or configured to be that efficent.

It's an electric motor. It uses a fuel cell to convert hydrogen and oxygen directly into electricity.

Offline catfish1957

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It's an electric motor. It uses a fuel cell to convert hydrogen and oxygen directly into electricity.

I see, and it has been a long long time since I've had college Physics, but can't seem to shake Newton's laws, and that same motor still has to mobilize the same 2000+ pounds of car that efficently.

If this technoogy if true, and could be managed safely, it would truly be game changing.
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I see, and it has been a long long time since I've had college Physics, but can't seem to shake Newton's laws, and that same motor still has to mobilize the same 2000+ pounds of car that efficently.

If this technoogy if true, and could be managed safely, it would truly be game changing.

Fuel cells have been around for a long time.  The way the typical hydrogen fuel cell works is that hydrogen gas is forced through a platinum and ruthenium-laced polymer.  The protons pass through while the electrons circle around through a wire.  On the other side, oxygen molecules ionize by accepting the electrons through the wire, and then accept the protons passing through the polymer to form water molecules.  And the flow of electrons through the wire is what runs the electric motor.

There are other types of fuel cells, but this is the simplest.  The cell runs at about 80°C, much cooler than an ICE.  These cars already exist and are on the road right now.  The problem of course is how to refuel (and store) more hydrogen.

The best way to approach this is to look at hydrogen as a way of storing electricity.  In other words, a tank of hydrogen is equivalent to a lead or lithium battery.  But storing hydrogen gas is problematic since it leaks through everything.  Expect a 1% loss per day.  It also has a low energy density at STP (as you have already pointed out) compared to natural gas.  So it must undergo extreme pressure to mimic current fuel tank capacities.

Another way to store hydrogen is with sodium borohydride.  It is very safe, but would require a minimum concentration to be maintained in a 'fuel tank' in order to generate effective power.  Once the sodium borohydride concentration is depleted, the entire tank contents would have to be traded out with fresh stock.  So future filling stations would not only provide 'fuel' but they would also be collectors for spend liquid fuel.

And finally, there is the crux of the bisquit - economy.  Sure hydrogen fuel cells work.  But are people willing to pay a higher cost for fuel than they currently get from gasoline?  The answer to that is a resounding 'NO!'.  And as long as the price of hydrogen is tied to the price of fossil fuels, it will NEVER be competitive with the ICE.  The ONLY way to make hydrogen viable is to bring down the price of electricity to a point where water electrolysis is cheaper than reforming methane.

Fuel Cell Basics (DoE)
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I think I’d rather have a car run in hydrogen than electric.

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Offline DB

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I would guess a fuel cell and the fuel storage tank is much lighter weight than a large pack of lithium batteries.

With hydrogen fuel you need a well ventilated garage...

Offline Kamaji

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Fuel cells have been around for a long time.  The way the typical hydrogen fuel cell works is that hydrogen gas is forced through a platinum and ruthenium-laced polymer.  The protons pass through while the electrons circle around through a wire.  On the other side, oxygen molecules ionize by accepting the electrons through the wire, and then accept the protons passing through the polymer to form water molecules.  And the flow of electrons through the wire is what runs the electric motor.

There are other types of fuel cells, but this is the simplest.  The cell runs at about 80°C, much cooler than an ICE.  These cars already exist and are on the road right now.  The problem of course is how to refuel (and store) more hydrogen.

The best way to approach this is to look at hydrogen as a way of storing electricity.  In other words, a tank of hydrogen is equivalent to a lead or lithium battery.  But storing hydrogen gas is problematic since it leaks through everything.  Expect a 1% loss per day.  It also has a low energy density at STP (as you have already pointed out) compared to natural gas.  So it must undergo extreme pressure to mimic current fuel tank capacities.

Another way to store hydrogen is with sodium borohydride.  It is very safe, but would require a minimum concentration to be maintained in a 'fuel tank' in order to generate effective power.  Once the sodium borohydride concentration is depleted, the entire tank contents would have to be traded out with fresh stock.  So future filling stations would not only provide 'fuel' but they would also be collectors for spend liquid fuel.

And finally, there is the crux of the bisquit - economy.  Sure hydrogen fuel cells work.  But are people willing to pay a higher cost for fuel than they currently get from gasoline?  The answer to that is a resounding 'NO!'.  And as long as the price of hydrogen is tied to the price of fossil fuels, it will NEVER be competitive with the ICE.  The ONLY way to make hydrogen viable is to bring down the price of electricity to a point where water electrolysis is cheaper than reforming methane.

Fuel Cell Basics (DoE)

Another question - at least to my mind - is what happens with these fuel tanks in a collision?  Is borohydride flammable or toxic?

Offline catfish1957

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Another question - at least to my mind - is what happens with these fuel tanks in a collision?  Is borohydride flammable or toxic?

lol...which 1st.... burnt to a crisp (the H2) or die of a toxic exposure.  Only your local coroner knows for sure.
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