Author Topic: Another Attempt To Retire A-10 Warthogs Isn't Going Well For The Air Force  (Read 1666 times)

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rangerrebew

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Another Attempt To Retire A-10 Warthogs Isn't Going Well For The Air Force

The Senate Armed Services Committee has blocked requests by the Air Force to retire dozens of its A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft.
By Brett Tingley July 23, 2021

    The War Zone

The Air Force wants to retire 42 A-10 Warthogs
 

The Senate Armed Services Committee has rejected a USAF proposal that would have seen many A-10 Warthog aircraft being retired. The committee’s proposed fiscal year 2022 defense policy bill would prohibit the Air Force from retiring the A-10s, while Air Force leaders have said that keeping the Warthogs could be a major misstep.

News of the Senate saving A-10s from the boneyard was first reported by Valerie Insinna at Defense News. The Air Force had proposed retiring 42 Warthogs, bringing the total number down from 281 to 239 aircraft, with an end goal of bringing the number of active A-10s down to 218 within two years. Insinna reports that Lt. Gen. David Nahom, the Air Force’s Deputy Chief of Staff for Plans and Programs, said that not retiring the A-10s would have “considerable consequences” including higher sustainment and upgrade costs.
Jamie Hunter

An A-10C of the 66th Weapons Squadron.

Naholm is referring to the Air Force’s plans to give its Warthogs new wings, GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs, a new High-Resolution Display System, and a host of other upgrades to extend their operational service through 2030 or beyond, which you can read more about in this past feature of ours.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41667/another-attempt-to-retire-a-10-warthogs-isnt-going-well-for-the-air-force

rangerrebew

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SNAFU!!!  The flags hard at work, again, trying to insure things work the way they want them, not how they should be. :whistle:

Offline sneakypete

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SNAFU!!!  The flags hard at work, again, trying to insure things work the way they want them, not how they should be. :whistle:

@rangerrebew

Yup! It chills the USAF Generals to the heart to think that they have ANY part to play in a support role. Why,that sort of thing is for common thugs,like soldiers and Marines,not refined gentlemen like USAF Pilots.
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Offline Bigun

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And beside all that, the money in maintaining what you already have that works isn't anywhere near what can be found in new designs.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline sneakypete

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And beside all that, the money in maintaining what you already have that works isn't anywhere near what can be found in new designs.

@Bigun

Yes,let's not forget the goobermint contractors and all the jobs and votes they represent.
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Offline Bigun

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@Bigun

Yes,let's not forget the goobermint contractors and all the jobs and votes they represent.

Especially those comfortable jobs for retired four stars. @sneakypete
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline sneakypete

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Especially those comfortable jobs for retired four stars. @sneakypete
@Bigun

Oh,yes. When was the last time any 4 star from a technical service retired without getting a corporate board seat?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Hoodat

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Enough already.  Turn it over to the Army and let them buy their own planes.  The Air Force should have nothing to do with it.  If they don't have a taste for ground support, then give it over to someone who does.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline sneakypete

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Enough already.  Turn it over to the Army and let them buy their own planes.  The Air Force should have nothing to do with it.  If they don't have a taste for ground support, then give it over to someone who does.

@Hoodat

The USAF wouldn't even let the US Army have Caribous,which were perfect for landing on small airstrips at remote SF bases to supply the camps. Strips so short the USAF had nothing that could safely land there. So they complained until the DoD took the Caribous away from the Army and gave them to the Air Force,which immediately scrapped them for being too small to be useful.

If they were willing to do this,you KNOW they ain't going to let the Army have zoomies.
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Offline AARguy

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A-10's are a gun with an airplane built around it. Guns need LOS (line-of-sight) to engage an enemy. That makes them very vulnerable to enemy fire. Best bet is to fire "sensor fused weapons" at bad guys from long distances which home in and destroy the bad guys while minimizing risk to our aircrews. The emotional attachment to A-10's is understandable but not smart. Like opposing retirement of muskets. Technology marches on.

Offline Hoodat

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A-10's are a gun with an airplane built around it. Guns need LOS (line-of-sight) to engage an enemy. That makes them very vulnerable to enemy fire. Best bet is to fire "sensor fused weapons" at bad guys from long distances which home in and destroy the bad guys while minimizing risk to our aircrews. The emotional attachment to A-10's is understandable but not smart. Like opposing retirement of muskets. Technology marches on.

Spoken like  an air force veteran.  But the guys on the ground who are being shot at have a decidedly different opinion regarding ground support.

I always think of that scene in Saving Private Ryan where they are trying to hold on to that bridge.  Infantry soldiers are being shot at from all directions by armor and mechanized infantry.  All seemed lost, when out of nowhere, a P-47 drops a bomb right on top of a tank.  You can bet your sweet ass those soldiers were glad to have air support right at the site instead of someone pushing a button miles away in between sips of coffee, at a target they had no idea even existed.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline AARguy

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No, actually I was an Infantryman enlisted and Field Artillery after graduating West Point. I never felt very comfortable requesting fast mover air support. Tough to look at bad guys coming through the wire as you know your request is working its way through your Battalion ALO to the Air Force LNO to the AF unit and so on and so on when you can glance over your shoulder and see a hovering Apache, look the gunner in the eye and tell him where to put his steel on target.

Offline Hoodat

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Who is in charge of Apache requisitions?  Air Force or Army?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline HoustonSam

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No, actually I was an Infantryman enlisted and Field Artillery after graduating West Point. I never felt very comfortable requesting fast mover air support. Tough to look at bad guys coming through the wire as you know your request is working its way through your Battalion ALO to the Air Force LNO to the AF unit and so on and so on when you can glance over your shoulder and see a hovering Apache, look the gunner in the eye and tell him where to put his steel on target.

Thanks @AARguy for your insight and of course for your service.  The "conventional wisdom" among mere observers like me is that Army ground forces really appreciate the A-10;  your experience seems to challenge that conventional wisdom.  Do most experienced ground forces share your preference for the more direct availability of close air support from Army-owned-and-operated helicopters?  My layman's understanding is that the A-10's 30 mm Gatlin gun was really intended to bust tanks.  Could helicopters perform that mission as effectively?  Even from my "chair-borne ranger" perspective I wonder how well the experience gained in the middle east during the last 20 years predicts what to expect against a "near peer" enemy with a real armor capability.

Finally, what is a "sensor fused weapon"?
James 1:20

Offline sneakypete

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A-10's are a gun with an airplane built around it. Guns need LOS (line-of-sight) to engage an enemy. That makes them very vulnerable to enemy fire. Best bet is to fire "sensor fused weapons" at bad guys from long distances which home in and destroy the bad guys while minimizing risk to our aircrews. The emotional attachment to A-10's is understandable but not smart. Like opposing retirement of muskets. Technology marches on.

@AARguy

I know you mean well,but you have obviously never played "Custers Last Stand" with a recon team surrounded by the bad guys,who are trying to climb up your back.

The only reason I and countless other SF vets are still alive is the USAF still had A1E Skyraiders still flying during the VN war. I have had them make gun runs so close to me that I could look up and see the pilot smiling and waving as he pulled up again.

And you ain't never seen anybody haul ass like an enemy hauls ass when they look up and see napalm cannisters tumbling towards the ground around them after you have requested "Crispy Critters" over your radio.

You get neither with zoomies firing rockets from miles away.

Yeah,helicopter guns ships and Cobras do a FINE job of shredding an attacking enemy,but they can't get there as fast as the old A1E's,never mind the the A-10's.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 12:16:30 am by sneakypete »
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Offline sneakypete

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Spoken like  an air force veteran.  But the guys on the ground who are being shot at have a decidedly different opinion regarding ground support.

 

@AARguy   @Hoodat

Yeah,that's ONE way of putting it!

Seems like I never heard of a zoomie that got shot down that ever objected to close up tac air support as he was being rescued,either.
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Offline sneakypete

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No, actually I was an Infantryman enlisted and Field Artillery after graduating West Point. I never felt very comfortable requesting fast mover air support. Tough to look at bad guys coming through the wire as you know your request is working its way through your Battalion ALO to the Air Force LNO to the AF unit and so on and so on when you can glance over your shoulder and see a hovering Apache, look the gunner in the eye and tell him where to put his steel on target.

@AARguy

You had to go through all that?

Seriously?

Everytime I talk with a conventional army soldier,I am SOOOO happy I was in SF!

We talked personally to our air support and told them what we wanted,and where we wanted it applied. No middle men.

Of course,everybody on our recon teams was also equipped with a URC-10 USAF survival radio that was tuned to the USAF emergency band by just pulling up the antenna. Somebody from our camps either stole them,or swapped stuff like captured weapons for them from some USAF supply center.

Pull the antenna up on one of THOSE bad boys,and you suddenly had all the tac air support you ever needed because the pilots always thought they were coming to the aid of a zoomie that had gotten shot down and was surrounded.

And to give them the credit they were due,they didn't seem to give a damn that it wasn't a pilot once they showed up and started to light the bad guys up.

We used to invite those A1E pilots to our camp NCO club when we would have Australian stippers come visit,and they NEVER had to pay a single penny for drinks or eats while visiting.

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Offline sneakypete

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Who is in charge of Apache requisitions?  Air Force or Army?

@Hoodat

The Army,but the USAF Special Operations people (Air Commandoes) always have some gun ships available for pilot rescues and other special missions. They even flew missions to pick up SF recon teams from CCS that getting shot up in Cambodia during the VN war.
 
I don't think many people are aware of the USAF chopper pilots,or the sometimes insane risks they take to rescue shot down pilots. Damn shame because they sure deserve some public recognition for the risks they take to do their jobs,and ALL of them are volunteers.
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Offline Hoodat

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@Hoodat

The Army,but the USAF Special Operations people (Air Commandoes) always have some gun ships available for pilot rescues and other special missions. They even flew missions to pick up SF recon teams from CCS that getting shot up in Cambodia during the VN war.

@sneakypete , My point is that if the Army gets to purchase its own Apache helicopters, then they should be allowed to purchase A-10s and C-130s as well.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline AARguy

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I bow to your superior knowledge of the Viet Nam War. My bad. Most of my mentors in the Army were Viet Nam grads. But the primary threats we face today are not in jungles. Of course, we must maintain our ability to fight in every environment, but recent major conflicts have been fought mainly in deserts with a few side trips to places like Panama and Grenada.

In those environments, standoff weapon use is best. We aren't fighting guys with just rifles anymore. The bad guys now hqave SA-21's and more. If the A-10 can see the bad guy (which he must), the bad guy can see him and the response isn't gust AK's and RPG's any more.

Aircraft need to stay way out of the battle area so they can survive, rearm and return with more ordnance when faced with the mechanized threats presented by Russia from Belarus to Poland to the Ukraine and more. Getting close enough to these forces to use a gun is just not smart. The Chinese threat is similar.

And I'm not talking about rockets. I am talking about armor piercing rounds that home in on a vehicle from the heat signature, a cooperative engagement using a laser designator or a GPS guided round updated by the extensive communication networks available on today's battlefield. Precision is the key today. Bullets don't follow the enemy when he changes direction. A man-fired JAVELIN round does... without any help from the gunner. So does a LONGBOW HELLFIRE. So do sensor-fused weapons constantly searching and updating the target location.

One last word about helicopter and fast mover reaction times. You may have had some unique comms with fast movers as a Special Operator. And you probably had DEDICATED air support.The BIG ARMY has no such amenities. A typical unit must request a mission from its local ALO who passes it up the Air Force chain to the ALO and on to the unit. There's a lot of lag. And uncertainty.

I remember being on a convoy in Iraq that was attacked with command detonated IED's while an ambush was executed. I could see our escort Apaches hovering nearby. I simply waved them forward instinctively and they drove the bad guys away. Instantly.

We have a lot to learn from the Viet Nam experience. We also have a lot to learn from the availability of new technologies. And deserts have different requirements from jungles, as do MOUT/MOBUA operations from Poland to Syria.

Offline sneakypete

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Thanks @AARguy for your insight and of course for your service.  The "conventional wisdom" among mere observers like me is that Army ground forces really appreciate the A-10;  your experience seems to challenge that conventional wisdom.  Do most experienced ground forces share your preference for the more direct availability of close air support from Army-owned-and-operated helicopters? My layman's understanding is that the A-10's 30 mm Gatlin gun was really intended to bust tanks.  Could helicopters perform that mission as effectively?

Yes,they can,and they do. The problem is they don't have the range and the ability to stay on station that the fighter/bombers have,or the ability to evade incoming fire.

I can't remember the caliber of the cannon in the nose of Cobra Gunships at this late date,but those bad will will light your ass UP,while shredding the surrounding terrain. Their major problem,from the grunt pov,is that it takes longer for them to get to you than the fast movers.


Even from my "chair-borne ranger" perspective I wonder how well the experience gained in the middle east during the last 20 years predicts what to expect against a "near peer" enemy with a real armor capability.


I don't have a clue.

Finally, what is a "sensor fused weapon"?

I think that is armor and zoomie speak for a rocket or bomb that senses when it is close enough to a major chuck on metal that it explodes automatically if it starts to get out of range.  Just a WAG,though. Too technical for a simple grunt like me.


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Offline HoustonSam

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@sneakypete , My point is that if the Army gets to purchase its own Apache helicopters, then they should be allowed to purchase A-10s and C-130s as well.

That has been my thought as well.  I believe the USAF was founded on the idea that it would take all fixed-wing aircraft that had been previously in the Army Air Force, but it seems to me that a more reasonable distinction would be accountability for a particular kind of combat.  Let the Army be accountable for all aspects of ground combat including Close Air Support whether with helicopters or fixed-wing aircraft, and let the Air Force be accountable for air superiority and the strategic projection of power.

But I say this as a life-long civilian, with no understanding of how to fight a war or manage a military.
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Offline sneakypete

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@sneakypete , My point is that if the Army gets to purchase its own Apache helicopters, then they should be allowed to purchase A-10s and C-130s as well.

@Hoodat

I can get enthauistic about the US Army having A-10's and related crews and equipment,but C-130's are a step too far. There is no technical or logistica reason for the army to take on troop or equipment carriers when the USAF has been doing a magnificent job of that for decades.

Now,if the US Army could get their hands on the Caribous or something similar again that can land and take off from REALLY short and rough runways,I am all for that!

BTW,if the US military has ever gotten their money worth out of anything,it has been the C-130. One of the most reliable and capable aircraft ever designed. Also one of the most flexible when it comes to mission capability. Seeing a C-130 gunship at work at night is truly a sight to behold. Especially if they are shredding bad guys trying to climp up your back.
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Offline sneakypete

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I bow to your superior knowledge of the Viet Nam War. My bad. Most of my mentors in the Army were Viet Nam grads. But the primary threats we face today are not in jungles. Of course, we must maintain our ability to fight in every environment, but recent major conflicts have been fought mainly in deserts with a few side trips to places like Panama and Grenada.

In those environments, standoff weapon use is best. We aren't fighting guys with just rifles anymore. The bad guys now hqave SA-21's and more. If the A-10 can see the bad guy (which he must), the bad guy can see him and the response isn't gust AK's and RPG's any more.

Standoff weapons are NEVER best for close up infantry support. NEVER.


One last word about helicopter and fast mover reaction times. You may have had some unique comms with fast movers as a Special Operator. And you probably had DEDICATED air support.

Nope. Other that slicks and helicopter guns ships/Cobras. Even then they were only assigned to us on a day to day basis. We never knew for sure who would be flying us in or picking us up. As for tac air support,we just called the USAF,and they came.
Of course,using their own survival radios to call them on didn't hurt. For all they knew when they came rushing to our aide,they were coming to help a shot down pilot.

You do make some valid points,but in MY less than humble opinon,there is no such thing as "One size fits all". Our military,even the conventional units,need to remain flexible so they can respond appropriately and in a timely manner.

The "everybody wears red and marches in a straight line" approach of the conventional army is responsible for the deaths of far too many soldiers in my opinion.

 
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Offline AARguy

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A typical "sensor fused weapon" is a CBU-105. This ordnance weighs about 1,000 pounds and carry a whole bunch of submunitions which disperse high over the enemy, search for heat signatures from engines and such, then launch a precision missile which penetrates the enemy vehicle/armor. The system is launched from an aircraft well outside the engagement area. Sensors (observers on the ground, airborne, satellite, etc.) are networked to tell the aircraft where the bad guys are. The pilot aims his weapon into a piece of sky over the target area and pulls the trigger. The weapon takes over... approaching, identifying and attacking the target(s) with a high degree of precision.

Rockets are a different world. They are like bullets. You aim and fire. Like a bullet, they are unguided in flight and go where aimed. Rockets are an "area weapon" and not a "precision weapon". Precision weapons are guided in flight to track os moving target, either autonomously or by the gunner. Bullets and iron bombs are "dumb weapons". TOW, DRAGON and SAL HELLFIRE are "smart weapons". They are guided by the gunner during flight either by wire (as in TOW and DRAGON) or by laser (as in SAL HELLFIRE). JAVELIN and LONGBOW HELLFIRE are examples of "brilliant weapons" which guide themselves to the target. JAVELIN, for example, uses TV to identify a straight line, right angle or some other feature on the target which does not exist in nature. It "locks on" to this feature and guides itself to the moving or stationary target.

Helicopters are much better at evading enemy fire than fast movers. They both carry an IRCM suite that jams heat seekers, IR seekers and other guidance systems and the flare dispenser they both carry. But as countermeasures get better, so do the attacking weapons. The original REDEYE air defense system had to attack an aircraft from the rear where the exhaust was. (After the attacking aircraft had dropped its ordnance on you... bad idea.) The original Stinger (BASIC STINGER) allowed a front attack. The next generation Stinger (Stinger POST... Passive Optical Sensing Technique) enhanced these abilities. Then the countermeasures learned to change the IR signature so that the incoming missile couldn't see it. This led to STINGER RMP (Reprogrammable MicroProcessor) which allowed sensing across the spectrum no matter what the target did to confuse the missile.Both helos and fixed wing have these countermeasures. In that, they are equally protected. But a helicopter is comfortable flying even BELOW tree level or hovering behind a rock. Fast movers can't do that. The key is to engage the target from a position where the firing platform cannot be seen or detected. Modern aircraft, both fixed wing and rotary wing are now networked with ground, air and even satellite sensors to tell them exactly where the bad guys are without being anywhere near them. Using things like sensor-fused weapons and LONGBOW HELLFIRE, they can use this data to strike the enemy WITH PRECISION from standoff ranges which ensure their survival. Guns are simply too short range to be able to do this.

A couple of other thoughts.. the gun of an A-10 destroys armor by setting up harmonic distortions within the enemy armor. The gun does NOT PIERCE armor. It set up multiple vibrations which literally cause the metal to crack, vibrate and shake itself apart. Multiple hits are required. That means gunner exposure time... not good. Anti-armor weapons like HELLFIRE, JAVELIN and CBU-105 use "shaped cahrges" even tandem mounted multiple shaped charges which FOCUS the explosive force to actually PIERCE the armor.

And finally, Apaches are a lot more AVAILABLE than fast movers. Fast movers come from an airstrip typically far from the combat area. When I was in Iraq they came from bases far from our AO. I remember one day sitting on the roof of our Ops Center watching F-16's dropping JDAMS (laser guided bombs) on SADR City. They would drop the bombs and disappear... coming back sometime later refueled and rearmed. Meanwhile, Kiowa Warrior (OH-58D) helicopters right in front of me stayed hidden behind a tree line, exposing only their laser in its mount above the blades (MMS) to laser "designate" the targets and guide the JDAMS to their target WITH PRECISION. They took turns rearming and refueling at a mobile FAARP located about 100 yards from me. They never left the battle area. Meanwhile, Apaches attacked escaping bad guys over and over... refueling quickly and efficiently only miles away from their firing points.

The Army doesn't use Cobra;s anymore, although the last time I looked, the Marines still did. New versions with all sorts of gizmos... can even fire a Maverick and HELLFIRES.