Author Topic: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers  (Read 27728 times)

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #925 on: March 22, 2021, 06:44:02 am »



Yeah... Stolen slogans really prove the point.  *****rollingeyes*****

Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #926 on: March 22, 2021, 06:59:44 am »
You tell that to my Dad, who did not get one of his purple hearts because someone decided the tank round that wounded him and killed most of his squad in Korea came from an American Tank.

John Kerry isn't fit to shine Dad's shoes.

@Smokin Joe

The US military still doesn't award Purple Hearts for it's members wounded by "friendly fire",AFAIK.

Bob Howard got put in for a Medal of Honor on THREE separate occasions in less than a year,and was turned down the first two times because he was operating in Laos wearing sterile uniforms and carrying no US ID. Not even dog tags. If we had been captured,it would have been perfectly legal to shoot or hang us without trial or notification.


Quote
https://www.cmohs.org/recipients/robert-l-howard


He got his MoH on the third attempt because there was a US Army unit in contact with an NVA unit inside the border of VN in the same general area were Bob was operating on the other side of that border. They wrote the award up to imply he and his team were assisting the US Army unit in contact with the NVA unit.

If there had been no US Army units in contact with the NVA on the "right side" of the VN/Laotian border that day,he wouldn't have gotten a MoH even then.

One thing the military of ALL nations just love to death,it is regulations,and the higher up the "food chain" the approving authority is,the more they love them.


The irony here is one of his missions while in Laos was to try to capture a NVA soldier. Anytime a team managed to capture a NVA soldier and bring him back alive,the whole team got a "free" 5 day (IIRC) R&R in Lo Piri (spelling) Thailand. The Montagnard team members got 5 days off and cash rewards. Needless to say,EVERYBODY was always trying to capture a NVA,but for some odd reason the NVA didn't seem to be thrilled by the idea.

There is no one else in the entire history of the US Army that was put in for a MoH on three separate occasions in less than a year. On top of that,he was a Staff Sgt enlisted swine all three times,not a West Point graduate.

He had just gotten promoted to SFC E-7 and acting as the Recon Company 1st Sgt when I first met him. They did that to keep him out of helicopters and out of Laos.  The Colonel had to order him to NOT go on missions.

He was also one of the nicest and friendliest people you could ever hope to meet,as long as he thought you did your duty to the  best of your ability every day. If you gave him cause to doubt that,you needed to hide until you could get the orders typed up to get you the hell out of there.

All it took to quit SOG at any time was to walk into the orderly room and say "I quit". That was it,no reasons had to be given and no questions were asked. The company clerk would type up orders sending you back to the SFOB for reassignment and you would be back at Nha Trang the next day with NO negative reports unless you had failed to do your duty while in the bush.

BTW,that was the one exception to the "quit today,be back at the SFOB tomorrow" rule. If your team had already been alerted for a mission before you got to the orderly room,you went on that mission. You could go back to Nha Trang when you came back out of the bush,but you DID go on that mission. The reason for this is the team couldn't go in one man short. Even if you got a new member,it took a little time to train the new member on how THAT team operated and what the team leader expected the new member to do.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 07:04:09 am by sneakypete »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #927 on: March 22, 2021, 07:00:15 am »
The Americans stopped the coronation of the Drunken Harridan.   

And more Americans voted for Donald Trump than any presidential candidate ever in history, including the current mindless occupant seated at the Resolute Desk.

And, no, the Americans aren't expecting any help from the self-proclaimed Principled Conservatives to restore America to it's glory.   Principled Conservatives are neither.


It sure is interesting that when Trump criticized the R party establishment during the 2016 primaries for its ineffectiveness, and even refused to commit his support to the eventual R nominee during one of the candidate debates, he was held up by many as a visionary, transformative leader; when my friend @roamer_1 here criticizes the R party establishment, and Trump, for their ineffectiveness and refuses to commit his support to R party nominees, he is denounced as a democrat.

Trump's supporters spoke as one : they would no longer accept that failure to support the party essentially meant supporting the Ds.  But by the eve of the 2016 general election they were telling the rest of us that failure to support Trump essentially meant supporting the Ds.  And what do you know, we're still hearing the same argument now.

Why is it that Trump's self-glorifying pro-Trump/damn the R party stance was admirable, while roamer_1's objective pro-Conservativism/damn the R party stance isn't?

That, and stop, just stop calling the perfidious louts "RINOs".

They are, in essence, the GOP. (Sorry, @Cyber Liberty, I know you are personally trying to change that, and there are other exceptions, but that is where the power lies.)

It is Conservatives who are the real Republicans in Name Only, because there is no other banner for conservatives to run under without being shoved completely off to the side in the false dichotomy of the "Two-Party System".

It is the "GOP Leaders" like McConnell, McStain, Romney, Ryan, Boehner, Bushes, and so forth who have managed to pull aside the football, time after time, who have managed to fall just short enough that the Democrats have managed to keep most of the ground they gained, if not add to it during "Republican" moments of power.

But Conservative??  **nononono*

Only in apparent comparison to the ever Leftist-sliding Democrat (now openly Socialist/Communist) Party, is the GOP "conservative", with that tenuous position of moral relativity ever giving ground to the SJWs and special interest groups EXCEPT those who support traditional (family) values and the Right to Life.

There are always enough of those cretins in Congress (and elsewhere) to abandon principle in favor of "bi-partisanship" to scuttle any attempt to gain conservative ground, and often to make sure the eventual agenda of those who advance ever toward totalitarianism and away from our Constitutional Republic is satisfied, in even the smallest yet ground breaking ways.

(For instance, for those who think the SCOTUS would readily rule against requiring a "vaccine" to exercise your Civil Rights, think again. The precedent is already established that you can be "taxed" for not buying health insurance. While less personally and biologically invasive than modifying your cellular chemistry with mRNA, it is not a far step that you could be penalized for not subjecting yourself to medical experimentation on a massive scale, be that penalty pecuniary or a loss of essential Civil Rights, "for the public good"--the latter phrase, one which has been stretched like taffy beyond sane limits, is much like the interstate commerce clause.)

It is these little bricks, the decisions, the failures of investigations to actually accomplish anything or hold any to account, the nibbles at the Bill of Rights, that in summation form the all too solid foundations in statute and precedent which will be used as the basis for the growing megastate, the totalitarian Global Order, and those who are supposed to be representing US are in the thick of it, representing (with rare exception) only themselves and the monied interests which ultimately they see as putting them in power, not the voters who gave that anointing a rubber stamp. And now, now with the absence of howling, shrieking and absolute hell-raising protest of the latest and most egregious election fraud/theft, the die is cast, and the voices of the voters don't mean one whit because the elections can be manipulated at will, the polls reported as whatever the made to order point spread will be (+/- 4 points) in the captive media, and all else censored by omission or deplatforming.

If that doesn't work, the powers that be have the option of (literally) coming after any or all of us for "domestic terrorism": because their goon squads can create an incident, anywhere, anytime, call 1-800 rent a riot "mostly peaceful protest".

Frankly, I'm with @roamer_1. In the past 4 years, the GOP failed to remove Obamacare. Failed to cut the budget, failed to produce a budget, went 20 trillion further in debt, and failed to codify measures which would ensure continued and increased border security. Walls are nice where they are, but you have to close the frigging gate. (It's like the switch was turned back on, here come the Obama caravans of "kids" again, likely headed to or already part of some human trafficking scheme.) What happened with Epstein/Maxwell's information? So much information and so many opportunities gone down the Memory Hole of "investigation".

Was it put in a digital Rolodex so the usual suspects have convenient sources of entertainment (Those are someone's kids, damn it!), What about the Burisma scandal? and Riots, real ones not some faux "insurrection" that did not even have a rope. A real "armed insurrection" wouldn't have to scrounge up fire extinguishers to not actually hit police over the head with (no video, in the Capitol!, of anyone being hit with one--or it would have been all over the news). Somehow, over 200 people ended up with charges against them for visiting the Capitol, and more are coming, but cities across America were burned (or protesters faced down by citizens with firearms in plain view to keep the peace) and where are the charges? Against a 17 year old who defended his own life? Against Homeowners defending themselves, their home, their neighbors from people who had torn down a metal gate to trespass as a mob? Against police who could not have killed the guy who was dying of a Fentanyl overdose, and not against those who have looted, burned, and murdered their way through the year leading up to the election.

Where in the Hell has the GOP been through all this? Whining impotently in the corner.

It isn't about Trump, one way or the other, really, it is that the GOP's utter failure to make anything but an EO policy, and even the allegedly conservative Justices added to the SCOTUS turned tail and hid under the nearest lawbook when the issue (seems pretty damned clear to me) of a primary jurisdiction case regarding election procedures in an national election, a question of violating (prima facie!) the Constitution arose, in an epic and historic display of the continued nonfeasance that has become the hallmark of the Party.

I have a hard time seeing what it is I am supposed to be fighting for when the Party which is supposed to be fighting for me appears to be fighting against me and the Constitution it is sworn to uphold. This is why the GOP lost control of the House, despite any boost it got from the POTUS, and excused as a typical midterm loss of seats. That has been the failure that keeps on failing.

IF we don't stand on principle...

IF we fail to make a hard line, carved in stone, not scratched in sand, we can expect conservatism, the Constitution, and the Republic to fall, and leading that charge against it will be some of the GOP, voted for to keep the greater evils from having the pole position in the vanguard.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 07:21:21 am by Smokin Joe »
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #928 on: March 22, 2021, 07:31:51 am »
What a lot of these newcomers and n00bs to the Republican party don't seem to understand is that Conservatism isn't just a political philosophy...it's a way of life.  It's a set of standards and values we apply to our every day life and how we interact with the world.

A philosophy will change and evolve over time...your standards and values generally do not.

Those of us that have taken on Conservatism as our way of live have changed very little in our political belief system since we embraced it.

You get that...I get that and a few others get that.  But a lot of folks think Conservatism is whatever is popular at the time.

It just doesn't work that way.
pointing-up THIS!  pointing-up
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #929 on: March 22, 2021, 07:38:50 am »
But I was talking about Reagan @txradioguy   Your cult leader understands this.
Why would Conservatism (embracing a set of concepts, a worldview) be a "cult"?

Especially when fealty to a populist candidate (even a fairly good populist candidate), even over principles, isn't?

Bottom line is that trillions of  new debt, especially over the China Virus, signed off on, become his in the sense that Trump was the one with the ability to stop it. The POTUS always has the option to veto.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #930 on: March 22, 2021, 09:00:21 am »
@roamer_1

I hope I have done as well with the people I've had an opportunity to influence; only time will tell, and I'll never know one way or another this side of Glory.

The larger point is that Conservatism is not a political movement; it's much larger, and much more enduring, than that.  And whatever happens politically, like Hank Jr's Country Boy, we ain't going away.
Yep! Basic laws of behaviour, like laws of nature, don't go away.
The same things that work and have worked in cultures and societies which practiced them will continue to work.
It is those which do not, no matter who practices them, which cannot endure.
Every civilization which has been in defiance of that has failed or is in the process of failing.
And it does not matter who does or doesn't do that, any more than desire can overcome the law of gravity.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline dancer

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #931 on: March 22, 2021, 10:22:52 am »
SO WHAT? What has that to do with throwing Conservative factions under the bus?
There's no point in arguing, @roamer_1.  If you didn't catch on to what I was pointing to, you never will.   :shrug:

Offline dancer

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #932 on: March 22, 2021, 10:35:58 am »
And YOU are flat out wrong in this case my friend!  That part of the Constitution that lays out how electors are to be selected is definitely a part of the Constitution and the SOLE purpose for having a SCOTUS in the first place is to enforce that constitution!

SCOTUS has a duty to hear such cases and they flat out shirked that duty on December 11, 2020! The republic is DEAD as a result!

@roamer_1
Just catching up, Bigun.  Of all the treasonous acts committed, the SC turning tail was the most heart wrenching.  We know that many departments are comped, but to have one of three branches do this is horrid.  So, so disappointing.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #933 on: March 22, 2021, 01:36:18 pm »
There's no point in arguing, @roamer_1.  If you didn't catch on to what I was pointing to, you never will.   :shrug:

You're right. I never will. Are you trying to force your position by claims of faith?

Offline Bigun

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #934 on: March 22, 2021, 01:51:14 pm »
That, and stop, just stop calling the perfidious louts "RINOs".

They are, in essence, the GOP. (Sorry, @Cyber Liberty, I know you are personally trying to change that, and there are other exceptions, but that is where the power lies.)

It is Conservatives who are the real Republicans in Name Only, because there is no other banner for conservatives to run under without being shoved completely off to the side in the false dichotomy of the "Two-Party System".

It is the "GOP Leaders" like McConnell, McStain, Romney, Ryan, Boehner, Bushes, and so forth who have managed to pull aside the football, time after time, who have managed to fall just short enough that the Democrats have managed to keep most of the ground they gained, if not add to it during "Republican" moments of power.

But Conservative??  **nononono*

Only in apparent comparison to the ever Leftist-sliding Democrat (now openly Socialist/Communist) Party, is the GOP "conservative", with that tenuous position of moral relativity ever giving ground to the SJWs and special interest groups EXCEPT those who support traditional (family) values and the Right to Life.

There are always enough of those cretins in Congress (and elsewhere) to abandon principle in favor of "bi-partisanship" to scuttle any attempt to gain conservative ground, and often to make sure the eventual agenda of those who advance ever toward totalitarianism and away from our Constitutional Republic is satisfied, in even the smallest yet ground breaking ways.

(For instance, for those who think the SCOTUS would readily rule against requiring a "vaccine" to exercise your Civil Rights, think again. The precedent is already established that you can be "taxed" for not buying health insurance. While less personally and biologically invasive than modifying your cellular chemistry with mRNA, it is not a far step that you could be penalized for not subjecting yourself to medical experimentation on a massive scale, be that penalty pecuniary or a loss of essential Civil Rights, "for the public good"--the latter phrase, one which has been stretched like taffy beyond sane limits, is much like the interstate commerce clause.)

It is these little bricks, the decisions, the failures of investigations to actually accomplish anything or hold any to account, the nibbles at the Bill of Rights, that in summation form the all too solid foundations in statute and precedent which will be used as the basis for the growing megastate, the totalitarian Global Order, and those who are supposed to be representing US are in the thick of it, representing (with rare exception) only themselves and the monied interests which ultimately they see as putting them in power, not the voters who gave that anointing a rubber stamp. And now, now with the absence of howling, shrieking and absolute hell-raising protest of the latest and most egregious election fraud/theft, the die is cast, and the voices of the voters don't mean one whit because the elections can be manipulated at will, the polls reported as whatever the made to order point spread will be (+/- 4 points) in the captive media, and all else censored by omission or deplatforming.

If that doesn't work, the powers that be have the option of (literally) coming after any or all of us for "domestic terrorism": because their goon squads can create an incident, anywhere, anytime, call 1-800 rent a riot "mostly peaceful protest".

Frankly, I'm with @roamer_1. In the past 4 years, the GOP failed to remove Obamacare. Failed to cut the budget, failed to produce a budget, went 20 trillion further in debt, and failed to codify measures which would ensure continued and increased border security. Walls are nice where they are, but you have to close the frigging gate. (It's like the switch was turned back on, here come the Obama caravans of "kids" again, likely headed to or already part of some human trafficking scheme.) What happened with Epstein/Maxwell's information? So much information and so many opportunities gone down the Memory Hole of "investigation".

Was it put in a digital Rolodex so the usual suspects have convenient sources of entertainment (Those are someone's kids, damn it!), What about the Burisma scandal? and Riots, real ones not some faux "insurrection" that did not even have a rope. A real "armed insurrection" wouldn't have to scrounge up fire extinguishers to not actually hit police over the head with (no video, in the Capitol!, of anyone being hit with one--or it would have been all over the news). Somehow, over 200 people ended up with charges against them for visiting the Capitol, and more are coming, but cities across America were burned (or protesters faced down by citizens with firearms in plain view to keep the peace) and where are the charges? Against a 17 year old who defended his own life? Against Homeowners defending themselves, their home, their neighbors from people who had torn down a metal gate to trespass as a mob? Against police who could not have killed the guy who was dying of a Fentanyl overdose, and not against those who have looted, burned, and murdered their way through the year leading up to the election.

Where in the Hell has the GOP been through all this? Whining impotently in the corner.

It isn't about Trump, one way or the other, really, it is that the GOP's utter failure to make anything but an EO policy, and even the allegedly conservative Justices added to the SCOTUS turned tail and hid under the nearest lawbook when the issue (seems pretty damned clear to me) of a primary jurisdiction case regarding election procedures in an national election, a question of violating (prima facie!) the Constitution arose, in an epic and historic display of the continued nonfeasance that has become the hallmark of the Party.

I have a hard time seeing what it is I am supposed to be fighting for when the Party which is supposed to be fighting for me appears to be fighting against me and the Constitution it is sworn to uphold. This is why the GOP lost control of the House, despite any boost it got from the POTUS, and excused as a typical midterm loss of seats. That has been the failure that keeps on failing.

IF we don't stand on principle...

IF we fail to make a hard line, carved in stone, not scratched in sand, we can expect conservatism, the Constitution, and the Republic to fall, and leading that charge against it will be some of the GOP, voted for to keep the greater evils from having the pole position in the vanguard.

 :yowsa:  pointing-up

  Well said @Smokin Joe you nailed it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #935 on: March 22, 2021, 02:17:52 pm »
It isn't about Trump, one way or the other, really, it is that the GOP's utter failure to make anything but an EO policy, and even the allegedly conservative Justices added to the SCOTUS turned tail and hid under the nearest lawbook when the issue (seems pretty damned clear to me) of a primary jurisdiction case regarding election procedures in an national election, a question of violating (prima facie!) the Constitution arose, in an epic and historic display of the continued nonfeasance that has become the hallmark of the Party.

I have a hard time seeing what it is I am supposed to be fighting for when the Party which is supposed to be fighting for me appears to be fighting against me and the Constitution it is sworn to uphold. This is why the GOP lost control of the House, despite any boost it got from the POTUS, and excused as a typical midterm loss of seats. That has been the failure that keeps on failing.

IF we don't stand on principle...

IF we fail to make a hard line, carved in stone, not scratched in sand, we can expect conservatism, the Constitution, and the Republic to fall, and leading that charge against it will be some of the GOP, voted for to keep the greater evils from having the pole position in the vanguard.

Great post @Smokin Joe
Well yes it is about Tumpy and it is about the Republicans. It's about both.

Dear Populists:
Populism does not work. Period. The problem with the populist position isn't even that it leans on whatever is popular at the time... Why it doesn't work is that it CANNOT build a machine. It doesn't know how. In fact, it's never had such a thought in its dizzy little head.

So OF COURSE it got waylaid. OF COURSE the Republican machine ground it up and spit it out. It was built of unicorn farts and wishes. No principles to stand upon, no gathering under a long held banner (other than trying to steal the Conservative one). No support at all inside of politics. Just the popular support of the people (which is an easy thing to sway). Y'all were no more than red meat.

And populism ALWAYS ENDS THUS. It can steal all the air from the room, sure... But not for long.

And the Republicans... After DECADES of indoctrinating the LIE that even a weak Republican was better than a Democrat, it has filled itself to brimming with everything BUT Conservatives. The Republican machine does not serve YOU. It serves the globalists. The very minute the Tump movement snuggled up to MurderTurtle and held hands, its doom was written. Not having principles to stand upon, and nothing more than memes to work for, the populist Tump movement, ignorant and all unawares,  the Republican machine thwarted at every turn except the EO, PURPOSEFULLY containing the populist outburst in a 4 year cycle, knowing full well (even as I and others did) that the next presidential win would write the populists' epitaph, and every single thing they accomplished would be effectively overturned.

It is not that I am a seer that has informed me - It was entirely predictable.

You WILL NOT win trying to steal Democrats from the DNC.
You WILL NOT win relying on the Republican machine.
You WILL NOT win hijacking the Conservative banner.

You need a machine. You need operatives all through government.

The TEA party was/is a Conservative movement. It started SIX YEARS before its win - But when it won, BOY did it win. All of that planning, all of that building, all the way down to the county seats and many city councils - That is WHY it won. That is WHY even after it got run over (by the Republican moderates skillfully manipulating the idiotic Tump stampede) it STILL WON. Record turnover in state houses and governorships... And every current Conservative, even though but a handful, came from that movement.

Had it continued, there would be forty Conservatves in the House this time, and ten Conservatives in the senate... and the next election, 60 in the House and 15 in the Senate. and the one after that, 75 in the House, and control of the minority, and 20 in the Senate, and control of the minority.

THAT is how it is done. I stood fast for the TEA Party. Hell I STILL DO. Because even now it has more chance of success, of actually moving the ball, than the Tumpy movement ever will.

But I did not give Tumpy the time of day. Maybe y'all should wonder at the difference instead of getting all buttsore because I would not swear fealty to your prince.

** Anyway Smoke... Good post. I just had that wee difference to get out.
 :beer: :seeya:

Offline Bigun

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #936 on: March 22, 2021, 02:40:32 pm »
Great post @Smokin Joe
Well yes it is about Tumpy and it is about the Republicans. It's about both.

Dear Populists:
Populism does not work. Period. The problem with the populist position isn't even that it leans on whatever is popular at the time... Why it doesn't work is that it CANNOT build a machine. It doesn't know how. In fact, it's never had such a thought in its dizzy little head.

So OF COURSE it got waylaid. OF COURSE the Republican machine ground it up and spit it out. It was built of unicorn farts and wishes. No principles to stand upon, no gathering under a long held banner (other than trying to steal the Conservative one). No support at all inside of politics. Just the popular support of the people (which is an easy thing to sway). Y'all were no more than red meat.

And populism ALWAYS ENDS THUS. It can steal all the air from the room, sure... But not for long.

And the Republicans... After DECADES of indoctrinating the LIE that even a weak Republican was better than a Democrat, it has filled itself to brimming with everything BUT Conservatives. The Republican machine does not serve YOU. It serves the globalists. The very minute the Tump movement snuggled up to MurderTurtle and held hands, its doom was written. Not having principles to stand upon, and nothing more than memes to work for, the populist Tump movement, ignorant and all unawares,  the Republican machine thwarted at every turn except the EO, PURPOSEFULLY containing the populist outburst in a 4 year cycle, knowing full well (even as I and others did) that the next presidential win would write the populists' epitaph, and every single thing they accomplished would be effectively overturned.

It is not that I am a seer that has informed me - It was entirely predictable.

You WILL NOT win trying to steal Democrats from the DNC.
You WILL NOT win relying on the Republican machine.
You WILL NOT win hijacking the Conservative banner.

You need a machine. You need operatives all through government.

The TEA party was/is a Conservative movement. It started SIX YEARS before its win - But when it won, BOY did it win. All of that planning, all of that building, all the way down to the county seats and many city councils - That is WHY it won. That is WHY even after it got run over (by the Republican moderates skillfully manipulating the idiotic Tump stampede) it STILL WON. Record turnover in state houses and governorships... And every current Conservative, even though but a handful, came from that movement.

Had it continued, there would be forty Conservatves in the House this time, and ten Conservatives in the senate... and the next election, 60 in the House and 15 in the Senate. and the one after that, 75 in the House, and control of the minority, and 20 in the Senate, and control of the minority.

THAT is how it is done. I stood fast for the TEA Party. Hell I STILL DO. Because even now it has more chance of success, of actually moving the ball, than the Tumpy movement ever will.

But I did not give Tumpy the time of day. Maybe y'all should wonder at the difference instead of getting all buttsore because I would not swear fealty to your prince.

** Anyway Smoke... Good post. I just had that wee difference to get out.
 :beer: :seeya:

Well, @roamer_1 the way I see it Trump was as close to the TEA party movement as he possibly could be under the conditions he was operating.  Yes! I would have loved to see him veto some spending bills but I also realize what would have been done to him if he had. 

We are in a damned DEEP hole and, now that Trump has been removed, don't see any way to get out of it other than, in my case, TEXIT!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #937 on: March 22, 2021, 02:53:23 pm »
Well, @roamer_1 the way I see it Trump was as close to the TEA party movement as he possibly could be under the conditions he was operating.  Yes! I would have loved to see him veto some spending bills but I also realize what would have been done to him if he had. 

We are in a damned DEEP hole and, now that Trump has been removed, don't see any way to get out of it other than, in my case, TEXIT!

The Tump movement was a caricature, all the way along. It LOOKED like the TEA party, but had no political depth at all. It is no accident that most of the new TEA party people got sucked out into the ether through Tumpys whirring  revolving administration door... Zinke, the only one I worked for was one of them. Dept of Interior, fine. But ZERO promises kept. And that ain't from Zinke. He'd do if he could.

The DEEP STATE boogeyman turned out to be MurderTurtle. Who'da thunk it. Well, other than me... And probably you... And a few others.

I am not disheartened. I expected this end.  I seen it coming the whole way along. But all that TEA Party mechanism is still there - Still in place. All that is needed is to pick that back up and continue. Getting that through Populists fool heads is the problem.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #938 on: March 22, 2021, 03:00:46 pm »
Why would Conservatism (embracing a set of concepts, a worldview) be a "cult"?

Especially when fealty to a populist candidate (even a fairly good populist candidate), even over principles, isn't?

Bottom line is that trillions of  new debt, especially over the China Virus, signed off on, become his in the sense that Trump was the one with the ability to stop it. The POTUS always has the option to veto.


@Smokin Joe


Which would have been nothing more than a fart in a hurricane. A "political pose for the mindless goobers". He can veto,and congress can override the veto,while screaming the whole time about how "the Presidents treasonous veto is starving the wimmins and the chillruns to death as well as making the wurld mo dangerous fo murikans!

It would be like a Christmas gift to the left,weaken his presidency,and not gain him or the Republic,one single damn positive thing.

This is about winning,not posing.

NO President can get away with that unless they have partisan control over Congress,or at least a tie,as well as a compliant media.

The sad,sad truth is that today the media is the most powerful branch of goobermint,and they are nothing less than a tool of the internationalists.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 03:01:39 pm by sneakypete »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #939 on: March 22, 2021, 03:08:08 pm »
Well, @roamer_1 the way I see it Trump was as close to the TEA party movement as he possibly could be under the conditions he was operating.  Yes! I would have loved to see him veto some spending bills but I also realize what would have been done to him if he had. 

We are in a damned DEEP hole and, now that Trump has been removed, don't see any way to get out of it other than, in my case, TEXIT!

@Bigun

NONE of that matters. Not ONE single bit.

The ONLY things that are important are "Bad Orange Man is a Billionaire,and I hate him for it!

We iz da wurld.......,we iz de peons,..........,hoping to hang all the rich peep-pulls........."
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #940 on: March 22, 2021, 03:10:56 pm »
@Bigun

NONE of that matters. Not ONE single bit.

The ONLY things that are important are "Bad Orange Man is a Billionaire,and I hate him for it!

We iz da wurld.......,we iz de peons,..........,hoping to hang all the rich peep-pulls........."

Thinking Tumpy and his movement would pull us out of that was always a pipe dream. They hadn't the wherewithal nor the political will to do it. It was nothing more than populist candy from the front of the parade. And if you cannot see that even yet, you soon will

Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #941 on: March 22, 2021, 03:16:24 pm »
Thinking Tumpy and his movement would pull us out of that was always a pipe dream. They hadn't the wherewithal nor the political will to do it. It was nothing more than populist candy from the front of the parade. And if you cannot see that even yet, you soon will

@roamer_1

You just keep telling yourself that,while preparing for the country to collapse because we can't see the "wisdom" you follow of just surrendering and looking for a hole to hide in.

Or maybe we could all just join forces and elect a Unicorn?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #942 on: March 22, 2021, 03:18:02 pm »
@roamer_1

You just keep telling yourself that,while preparing for the country to collapse because we can't see the "wisdom" you follow of just surrendering and looking for a hole to hide in.

Or maybe we could all just join forces and elect a Unicorn?

Yours was the unicorn @sneakpete. And the sign is bare upon the ground.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #943 on: March 22, 2021, 03:23:29 pm »
Yeah... Stolen slogans really prove the point.  *****rollingeyes*****

Stolen?

Like the Rodents stole the last election?

Who was harmed by recycling an effective slogan, beside the Rodents and their fifth column of Principled Conservatives?

You just unhappy that the Rodents aren't going to recycle "Senility For Strength" next time, they're going to go with "Sluts for Socialism"?
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline DB

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #944 on: March 22, 2021, 03:25:03 pm »
That, and stop, just stop calling the perfidious louts "RINOs".

They are, in essence, the GOP. (Sorry, @Cyber Liberty, I know you are personally trying to change that, and there are other exceptions, but that is where the power lies.)

It is Conservatives who are the real Republicans in Name Only, because there is no other banner for conservatives to run under without being shoved completely off to the side in the false dichotomy of the "Two-Party System".

It is the "GOP Leaders" like McConnell, McStain, Romney, Ryan, Boehner, Bushes, and so forth who have managed to pull aside the football, time after time, who have managed to fall just short enough that the Democrats have managed to keep most of the ground they gained, if not add to it during "Republican" moments of power.

But Conservative??  **nononono*

Only in apparent comparison to the ever Leftist-sliding Democrat (now openly Socialist/Communist) Party, is the GOP "conservative", with that tenuous position of moral relativity ever giving ground to the SJWs and special interest groups EXCEPT those who support traditional (family) values and the Right to Life.

There are always enough of those cretins in Congress (and elsewhere) to abandon principle in favor of "bi-partisanship" to scuttle any attempt to gain conservative ground, and often to make sure the eventual agenda of those who advance ever toward totalitarianism and away from our Constitutional Republic is satisfied, in even the smallest yet ground breaking ways.

(For instance, for those who think the SCOTUS would readily rule against requiring a "vaccine" to exercise your Civil Rights, think again. The precedent is already established that you can be "taxed" for not buying health insurance. While less personally and biologically invasive than modifying your cellular chemistry with mRNA, it is not a far step that you could be penalized for not subjecting yourself to medical experimentation on a massive scale, be that penalty pecuniary or a loss of essential Civil Rights, "for the public good"--the latter phrase, one which has been stretched like taffy beyond sane limits, is much like the interstate commerce clause.)

It is these little bricks, the decisions, the failures of investigations to actually accomplish anything or hold any to account, the nibbles at the Bill of Rights, that in summation form the all too solid foundations in statute and precedent which will be used as the basis for the growing megastate, the totalitarian Global Order, and those who are supposed to be representing US are in the thick of it, representing (with rare exception) only themselves and the monied interests which ultimately they see as putting them in power, not the voters who gave that anointing a rubber stamp. And now, now with the absence of howling, shrieking and absolute hell-raising protest of the latest and most egregious election fraud/theft, the die is cast, and the voices of the voters don't mean one whit because the elections can be manipulated at will, the polls reported as whatever the made to order point spread will be (+/- 4 points) in the captive media, and all else censored by omission or deplatforming.

If that doesn't work, the powers that be have the option of (literally) coming after any or all of us for "domestic terrorism": because their goon squads can create an incident, anywhere, anytime, call 1-800 rent a riot "mostly peaceful protest".

Frankly, I'm with @roamer_1. In the past 4 years, the GOP failed to remove Obamacare. Failed to cut the budget, failed to produce a budget, went 20 trillion further in debt, and failed to codify measures which would ensure continued and increased border security. Walls are nice where they are, but you have to close the frigging gate. (It's like the switch was turned back on, here come the Obama caravans of "kids" again, likely headed to or already part of some human trafficking scheme.) What happened with Epstein/Maxwell's information? So much information and so many opportunities gone down the Memory Hole of "investigation".

Was it put in a digital Rolodex so the usual suspects have convenient sources of entertainment (Those are someone's kids, damn it!), What about the Burisma scandal? and Riots, real ones not some faux "insurrection" that did not even have a rope. A real "armed insurrection" wouldn't have to scrounge up fire extinguishers to not actually hit police over the head with (no video, in the Capitol!, of anyone being hit with one--or it would have been all over the news). Somehow, over 200 people ended up with charges against them for visiting the Capitol, and more are coming, but cities across America were burned (or protesters faced down by citizens with firearms in plain view to keep the peace) and where are the charges? Against a 17 year old who defended his own life? Against Homeowners defending themselves, their home, their neighbors from people who had torn down a metal gate to trespass as a mob? Against police who could not have killed the guy who was dying of a Fentanyl overdose, and not against those who have looted, burned, and murdered their way through the year leading up to the election.

Where in the Hell has the GOP been through all this? Whining impotently in the corner.

It isn't about Trump, one way or the other, really, it is that the GOP's utter failure to make anything but an EO policy, and even the allegedly conservative Justices added to the SCOTUS turned tail and hid under the nearest lawbook when the issue (seems pretty damned clear to me) of a primary jurisdiction case regarding election procedures in an national election, a question of violating (prima facie!) the Constitution arose, in an epic and historic display of the continued nonfeasance that has become the hallmark of the Party.

I have a hard time seeing what it is I am supposed to be fighting for when the Party which is supposed to be fighting for me appears to be fighting against me and the Constitution it is sworn to uphold. This is why the GOP lost control of the House, despite any boost it got from the POTUS, and excused as a typical midterm loss of seats. That has been the failure that keeps on failing.

IF we don't stand on principle...

IF we fail to make a hard line, carved in stone, not scratched in sand, we can expect conservatism, the Constitution, and the Republic to fall, and leading that charge against it will be some of the GOP, voted for to keep the greater evils from having the pole position in the vanguard.

Thank you for that awesome post. You nailed it.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #945 on: March 22, 2021, 03:25:45 pm »
Stolen?

Like the Rodents stole the last election?

Who was harmed by recycling an effective slogan, beside the Rodents and their fifth column of Principled Conservatives?

You just unhappy that the Rodents aren't going to recycle "Senility For Strength" next time, they're going to go with "Sluts for Socialism"?


Nah... Nothing like that. Just that stealing slogans ain't the same as doing them.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #946 on: March 22, 2021, 03:29:27 pm »
That, and stop, just stop calling the perfidious louts "RINOs".

They are, in essence, the GOP. (Sorry, @Cyber Liberty, I know you are personally trying to change that, and there are other exceptions, but that is where the power lies.)

No, they are not.

The GOP is the entirety of the party membership, just like the Rodents are the entire set of filthy disgusting self-proclaimed elitist greedy pigs AND the morons that vote for them AND the moronic Never Trumping Traitors.

RINO is a designation of the subset of Republicans (the GOP) who are disgusting traitors.

Quote
It is Conservatives who are the real Republicans in Name Only, because there is no other banner for conservatives to run under without being shoved completely off to the side in the false dichotomy of the "Two-Party System".

Conservatives are another subset  of the GOP, the largest such and the most poorly defined.

There's even RINO Rodent jackasses claiming to be "Principled Conservatives" who are just the disgusting RINO pigs showing up at the library to host Drag Queen Story Hour.  Real Americans want nothing to do with them.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #947 on: March 22, 2021, 03:31:20 pm »

Nah... Nothing like that. Just that stealing slogans ain't the same as doing them.

Oh.

Since NOTHING that Reagan did survived, I guess he was nothing, too, right?

Trump was making America great again.   The disgusting RINO Principled Conservative traitors hated the idea and fought him every step of the way.   They wanted Jeb! to give Hillary the please clap, or something like that.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #948 on: March 22, 2021, 03:31:59 pm »
Conservatives are another subset  of the GOP, the largest such and the most poorly defined.

There are more Conservatives OUTSIDE the Republican party than in it. Been that way for a long time. Look it up.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #949 on: March 22, 2021, 03:34:16 pm »
Why would Conservatism (embracing a set of concepts, a worldview) be a "cult"?

Cults are both irrational and deliberately dishonest.

Conservatism/libertarianism is the only mostly rational political ideology around.   


Quote
Bottom line is that trillions of  new debt, especially over the China Virus, signed off on, become his in the sense that Trump was the one with the ability to stop it. The POTUS always has the option to veto.

Trump couldn't have stopped it without destroying the country immediately.

I do wish you people would grow up and stop being Principled Conservatives and start trying to be rational.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.