GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers

[Sled Dog]

No, I do not think that's true, or I would not be fighting for Conservatism.

But you're not fighting for conservatism.   

Nobody here can quite figure out what it is you want, but whatever that might be, you're not going to get a stronger and healthier America on the path you're traveling.

That much is obvious.  Right now you're helping the enemy.

[MOD4]

 

[sneakypete]

Let me clue you in. Ted Cruz would not have cut spending either...nor would he have reduced it in any way. In fact, that is true of every candidate who ran in 2016...including 3rd party candidates. So you are criticizing Trump in particular for having done as any other candidate would have...and that is because there is no support amongst the populace for such cuts at this political moment. I wish that were not the case...and it’s important we fight and try to win the spending argument...but no leader can implement a policy....say, a balanced budget....that would result in the general extinction of his party’s ability to win an election higher than that of dog catcher FOR A GENERATION OR PERHAPS LONGER.

It will take small steps towards fiscal responsibility...and persuading of the populace over time...to win that argument. One cannot walk into the White House and simply order a balanced budget. Doing so would fail AND would end in the Socialists reigning unchallenged.

@Mesaclone

Who the hell do you think you are to bring rational reasoning into a political discussion about Bad Orange Man?

Yew wunna them commonists,boy?

Weeze watchin yew!

[sneakypete]

Absolutely agree, but WTH do you mean, "We", Kemosabe??

Yet, I find it fascinating that the most prolific poster on this thread boasts that they refuse to participate, claiming it's "not my circus...not my monkeys, etc..".

@DCPatriot atriot

4 words. RICH Bad Orange Man.

[libertybele]

Let me clue you in. Ted Cruz would not have cut spending either...nor would he have reduced it in any way. In fact, that is true of every candidate who ran in 2016...including 3rd party candidates. So you are criticizing Trump in particular for having done as any other candidate would have...and that is because there is no support amongst the populace for such cuts at this political moment. I wish that were not the case...and it’s important we fight and try to win the spending argument...but no leader can implement a policy....say, a balanced budget....that would result in the general extinction of his party’s ability to win an election higher than that of dog catcher FOR A GENERATION OR PERHAPS LONGER.

It will take small steps towards fiscal responsibility...and persuading of the populace over time...to win that argument. One cannot walk into the White House and simply order a balanced budget. Doing so would fail AND would end in the Socialists reigning unchallenged.

Last time I checked the  Pubs lost anyhow so the argument that a balanced budget would result in the extinction of the party's ability to win another election doesn't hold water. IMHO the GOP is DOA anyways.

So ... building on the current GOP (huge mistake in my opinion);

#1 It is imperative that we seat conservatives at the local and state level.
#2  Having Ronna continue on as  the RNC chairwoman is a huge mistake.  She absolutely failed and we don't need her uncle RINO running.
#3  We must demand that McConnell step down.  He continues to do more harm to the party than good.
#4   Stop voting for RINO's and vote for conservatives only!

[skeeter]

Square One on the spending issue is simple to state and almost impossible to enact.

Ratify a Line Item Veto Amendment to the Constitution.   The President can line out any spending item on any bill and the Congress can only override that line-item veto with a 2/3 vote in both Chambers.   

This would have to be implemented by an Article V Convention of the States because Congress absolutely would not allow it otherwise.

Square Two would be a Balanced Budget Amendment that requires a 2/3 vote from both Houses to raise any federal tax (or "fee/fine/fo/fum" whatever else that Giant **** Roberts wants to call it).

If he had the line item veto then calling it “trumps debt” would make some sense.

[Hoodat]

@Hoodat

I feel just like I just finished reading a "The Twilight Zone" script.

@sneakypete - or one of those alternate realities books.

@sneakypete  @BassWrangler

Were you two not paying attention during the primary season?  Do you not remember how many delegates bound to vote Trump on the first ballot were going to turn on Trump if it ever went to a second ballot?  This would never have been a possibility if Trump had gotten involved at the state level and put his own people in those positions.  But he simply didn't know enough about the intricacies of inner GOP politics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/04/11/more-republican-delegates-chosen-more-problems-for-trump/


Michigan was especially poignant when Trump teamed up with Mr. Establishment himself John Kasich to block Cruz from seating any delegates for deciding rules changes.  For Kasich and his GOPe surrogates, blocking Cruz took precedent over blocking Trump.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/04/10/michs-kasich-trump-delegates-block-cruzs-camp/82857496/

The payoff was settled once Trump took office and chose his Chief of Staff - Reince Priebus.  Each and every example of this war on Cruz was pointed out again and again and again on this board.  So don't plead ignorance now.  The record speaks for itself.  Trump had one goal and one goal only - getting the nomination at any cost.  Cruz on the other hand was fighting for the heart and soul of the party.  Cruz lost, Trump got his first-ballot-only delegates, and the GOPe got what they wanted - an end to the state rebellions, and the rules changes they needed to cement their control at every level.



I challenge either one of you to come up with any instance where Trump said "Drain the Swamp" before the 2016 GOP Convention.

[sneakypete]

But when you think about it...the massive spending isn't just a single issue.  It affects every aspect of policy making.

@txradioguy

 
It also effects EVERY aspect of our private lives because it is OUR money the government takes away from us to fund it all.

Don't get me wrong. I DO realize that it is impossible to live in a world were I,or anyone else,would approve of every dollar spent in the budget. I accept the FACT that it is a give and take world we live in,and the CLOSEST we can come to an ideal budget is to have one that leaves everybody a little bit steamed.

Like in every other area of life (ever been married),we have to make compromises.

I am equating this to marriage because it is MY sincere believe that we should treat the budget deals made by our masters in DC like a marriage. Deal with it as long as it is bearable,but once we realize there is no hope of future reconciliation,we need a divorce from the creatures that have us foaming at the mouth on a daily basis.

This means divorce court with human marriages,and either a revolution or a repositioning of political power when it comes to government.

Ironically enough,I see the ONLY PRACTICAL hope to solve this problem without taking up arms is to once again elect a non-politician to the highest office in the land. Donald Trump is the ONLY man to have ever held the presidency since George Washington that wasn't a career politician.

On top of that,even his vast amount of money means NOTHING to him at this stage of his life compared to the way he is mentioned in the history books. He can't be bribed,and truth to tell,he can't even be blackmailed about stuff like hooking up with porn queens. He thinks that makes him look studly.

He is,in other words,politically untouchable by his political enemies in both branches of the ruling party. His goal is to represent American and to represent US,NOT the political professionals in DC that keep cutting deals with each other to advance the balances in their off-shore accounts.

He is not only the ideal candidate,speaking from practical terms,he is the ONLY possible candidate in 2024 if we want to save America.

It's either Trump,or "The North American Branch of World Wide Government,Inc."

Some of you might not like this,but there it is.

[Hoodat]

#1 It is imperative that we seat conservatives at the local and state level.

The RNC has gotten the rules changes it needed in 2016 and 2020 to ensure that they alone get to choose who runs at the state and local levels.

#2  Having Ronna continue on as  the RNC chairwoman is a huge mistake.  She absolutely failed and we don't need her uncle RINO running.

McDaniel was unanimously re-elected just two days after the electoral vote certifying Trump's defeat was accepted by Congress and control of the Senate reverted to the hardline communists.  Her tenure has seen control of both houses of Congress and the White House ceded over to the Democrats.  If there was ever a time for an RNC Chair to step down, this was it.  But all the RNC cares about is their own control over the GOP.

#3  We must demand that McConnell step down.  He continues to do more harm to the party than good.

McConnell was on his way out in 2014, only to be saved at the 11th hour by Donald Trump.  The favor was repeated again in 2020.  The fault here lies with Trump himself.  He still hasn't learned that the RNC could care less about who controls Washington.  All they care about is who controls the RNC.  Cruz was half way there to getting them all booted in 2016.  Trump rescued them.

#4   Stop voting for RINO's and vote for conservatives only!

That is tough to do at this point considering that it's the RNC and their patsies at the state level that are giving us our candidates.  I haven't seen a Conservative Republican win the nomination in my Congressional district in over a decade.  And because of that, it has been held by a Democrat for the last two cycles.  And will be held for at least the next six because the State GOP will select the candidate that is loyal to them with zero regard for the people of this district.  I had to endure over a decade of that Paul Ryan proxy Tom Price, followed by two years of that lazy POS Karen Handel.  Now I am represented by a Dem who lives in Tennessee.  And both the RNC and the state GOP are perfectly OK with that.

Trump was naive.  He sided with the wrong folks.  And he got burned.  Bigtime.  Just like we the people have been getting burned for decades.

To hell with the GOP.

[sneakypete]

Another mischaracterization. I care a great deal about the debt, I just have a more realistic view on how we got here, who's responsible and what can be done about it.

And I still haven't heard a workable solution to the problem from you.

@roamer_1
@skeeter

You mean,of course,other than shriek like a woman,thrown both hands up in the air,and run hide in the woods?

[sneakypete]

My boss once asked me to prioritize everything #1, across the board.

@Cyber Liberty


So,he inherited the business?

[skeeter]

@roamer_1
@skeeter

You mean,of course,other than shriek like a woman,thrown both hands up in the air,and run hide in the woods?

I know you're grinning when you say that.

[sneakypete]

Square One on the spending issue is simple to state and almost impossible to enact.

Ratify a Line Item Veto Amendment to the Constitution.   The President can line out any spending item on any bill and the Congress can only override that line-item veto with a 2/3 vote in both Chambers.   

This would have to be implemented by an Article V Convention of the States because Congress absolutely would not allow it otherwise.

Square Two would be a Balanced Budget Amendment that requires a 2/3 vote from both Houses to raise any federal tax (or "fee/fine/fo/fum" whatever else that Giant **** Roberts wants to call it).

@Sled Dog

I don't know how much,if any,of that is possible,but I sure do LOVE the sound of it!

That has MY vote for "post of the decade"!

[skeeter]

The RNC has gotten the rules changes it needed in 2016 and 2020 to ensure that they alone get to choose who runs at the state and local levels.


McDaniel was unanimously re-elected just two days after the electoral vote certifying Trump's defeat was accepted by Congress and control of the Senate reverted to the hardline communists.  Her tenure has seen control of both houses of Congress and the White House ceded over to the Democrats.  If there was ever a time for an RNC Chair to step down, this was it.  But all the RNC cares about is their own control over the GOP.


McConnell was on his way out in 2014, only to be saved at the 11th hour by Donald Trump.  The favor was repeated again in 2020.  The fault here lies with Trump himself.  He still hasn't learned that the RNC could care less about who controls Washington.  All they care about is who controls the RNC.  Cruz was half way there to getting them all booted in 2016.  Trump rescued them.


That is tough to do at this point considering that it's the RNC and their patsies at the state level that are giving us our candidates.  I haven't seen a Conservative Republican win the nomination in my Congressional district in over a decade.  And because of that, it has been held by a Democrat for the last two cycles.  And will be held for at least the next six because the State GOP will select the candidate that is loyal to them with zero regard for the people of this district.  I had to endure over a decade of that Paul Ryan proxy Tom Price, followed by two years of that lazy POS Karen Handel.  Now I am represented by a Dem who lives in Tennessee.  And both the RNC and the state GOP are perfectly OK with that.

Trump was naive.  He sided with the wrong folks.  And he got burned.  Bigtime.  Just like we the people have been getting burned for decades.

To hell with the GOP.

Your analysis is interesting and credible. In hindsight it is amazing Trump, or any non-insider, managed to pull it off in 2016. All things considered - all the mistakes he made - I'm still very glad he did.

It will be interesting to see which way he goes now, being the most influential figure in the party. Play ball with the insiders, take a shot at actually reforming the party or just fade away. Does it even matter.

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete - or one of those alternate realities books.


@sneakypete  @BassWrangler

Were you two not paying attention during the primary season?

 

Can't speak for BassWrangler,but I sure thought I was paying attention.

Do you not remember how many delegates bound to vote Trump on the first ballot were going to turn on Trump if it ever went to a second ballot?

 

Truthfully,no,I don't. Chemo brain. I THINK I am getting a little better now,but who am *I* to judge this?

This would never have been a possibility if Trump had gotten involved at the state level and put his own people in those positions.  But he simply didn't know enough about the intricacies of inner GOP politics.

I agree with the premise,but am willing to cut him a little slack when it comes to being unprepared. After all,he had never been elected to ANYTHING in his life before,so he was the new guy,and he had no choice but to trust SOME of the life-long pols. Face it,the job is just too damn complex for anyone to try to balance all the balls in the air at one given time by themselves.

My theory is that when he is sworn in on 2024 he will be a lot MORE experienced than the Donald Trump of 2016 and a HELL of a lot less trusting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/04/11/more-republican-delegates-chosen-more-problems-for-trump/

Michigan was especially poignant when Trump teamed up with Mr. Establishment himself John Kasich to block Cruz from seating any delegates for deciding rules changes.  For Kasich and his GOPe surrogates, blocking Cruz took precedent over blocking Trump.

I would love to try to claim I am unbiased on that issue,but the truth is I have never trusted Cruz any further than I could throw him. There is just something about him that flat creeps me out. Damn shame,too,because I think he just MIGHT be the smartest man in the US Senate. One thing is for certain,he damn sure ain't the fool a lot of them are.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/04/10/michs-kasich-trump-delegates-block-cruzs-camp/82857496/

The payoff was settled once Trump took office and chose his Chief of Staff - Reince Priebus.  Each and every example of this war on Cruz was pointed out again and again and again on this board.  So don't plead ignorance now.  The record speaks for itself.  Trump had one goal and one goal only - getting the nomination at any cost.

Going to have to start calling you "Captain Obvious if you keep that up.

 

Cruz on the other hand was fighting for the heart and soul of the party.

In MY not so humble opinion,Cruz was fighting for his own survival,nothing more,nothing less.
 
As he will be once again,and maybe even more so given all the illegal aliens that will be voting in Texas this time. Even before this he was sorta having to walk a tight rope.

If he is not lucky this time,he will find himself as maybe the smartest lobbyist that money can buy in DC.

 
 

[Hoodat]

Square One on the spending issue is simple to state and almost impossible to enact.

It is actually quite easy to enact.  The President does not have to spend money that Congress appropriates.  That is a key tenet of the Executive Branch.

[sneakypete]

I know you're grinning when you say that.

@skeeter

Who,ME?????

[sneakypete]

It is actually quite easy to enact.  The President does not have to spend money that Congress appropriates.  That is a key tenet of the Executive Branch.

@Hoodat

Maybe TECHNICALLY,but what happens when a President refusing to sign the budget?

Total and complete chaos is a sugar-coated way of describing it.

What we need are PRACTICAL suggestions and solutions.

Now,if Trump,or any other President were to have enough congressional support behind him to pull it off,but that would mean asking congresscritters to risk their own seats. Good luck with THAT one!

[Hoodat]

I agree with the premise,but am willing to cut him a little slack when it comes to being unprepared. After all,he had never been elected to ANYTHING in his life before,so he was the new guy,and he had no choice but to trust SOME of the life-long pols. Face it,the job is just too damn complex for anyone to try to balance all the balls in the air at one given time by themselves.

My theory is that when he is sworn in on 2024 he will be a lot MORE experienced than the Donald Trump of 2016 and a HELL of a lot less trusting.

I am also willing to cut him a great deal of slack on this.  He was a political rookie with no sense of the evils within the Party.  But he should have given Cruz more respect and credit for his efforts as should his AT supporters.  By the time the Convention arrived, it was too late.  Trump's first-ballot delegates were mostly GOPe plants who would have turned on him in the blink of an eye if it ever went to a second ballot.

The main thing the 2024 Trump is missing at this point is humility.  He needs to recognize his mistakes, develop a grass roots movement at the State level nationwide, and overturn the GOP structure.  Unfortunately, that structure will remain firmly in place until long after the 2024 RNC Convention.

[Hoodat]

@Hoodat

Maybe TECHNICALLY,but what happens when a President refusing to sign the budget?

If he refuses to sign, then it becomes law after ten days.  But that has no bearing on what I am suggesting.

What we need are PRACTICAL suggestions and solutions.

What I am suggesting is practical.  It requires nothing from Congress.  It is perfectly Constitutional and completely within the confines of Executive Power.  If Congress appropriates $31.7 billion for the Department of Energy in a fiscal year, it does not mean that the President has to spend all $31.7 billion.  It is entirely within his discretion to spend the money thus appropriated.  If he only spends $21.7 billion, then $10 billion remains in the Treasury unspent when the fiscal year is over.  And there isn't a damn thing Congress can do about it.

[Cyber Liberty]

.. And Mussolini made the trains run on time. 

First do no harm... Do no harm against truth, against principle, and maybe you have an argument. But flagrant abuse is another thing altogether.

That boss was sacked inside of a week for that stupid order.

[libertybele]

Your analysis is interesting and credible. In hindsight it is amazing Trump, or any non-insider, managed to pull it off in 2016. All things considered - all the mistakes he made - I'm still very glad he did.

It will be interesting to see which way he goes now, being the most influential figure in the party. Play ball with the insiders, take a shot at actually reforming the party or just fade away. Does it even matter.

He's met with McCarthy and made comments about getting people elected in '22.  McCarthy is an insider which doesn't set well with me.  I think we'll see Trump fade away within the next couple of months.  He has to realize that trying to win when nothing has changed is futile.  If he stays in..it boils down to keeping the GOP money machine going.  I personally am not interested.

[sneakypete]

@Hoodat

If he refuses to sign, then it becomes law after ten days.

 

My apologies. I was mistakenly thinking it meant the government would shut down. Since this doesn't cause government shutdowns,please remind me what does.

What I am suggesting is practical.  It requires nothing from Congress.

Then they should LOVE that. It's what they do best.

It is perfectly Constitutional and completely within the confines of Executive Power.  If Congress appropriates $31.7 billion for the Department of Energy in a fiscal year, it does not mean that the President has to spend all $31.7 billion.  It is entirely within his discretion to spend the money thus appropriated.  If he only spends $21.7 billion, then $10 billion remains in the Treasury unspent when the fiscal year is over.  And there isn't a damn thing Congress can do about it.

Maybe,but I would like to be the first to suggest mass suicide.

[Hoodat]

He's met with McCarthy and made comments about getting people elected in '22.  McCarthy is an insider which doesn't set well with me.

Hey, just because McCarthy was handpicked by John Boehner and Paul Ryan to lead the GOP in the House, don't let that cause you to lose trust in him.

[Hoodat]

My apologies. I was mistakenly thinking it meant the government would shut down. Since this doesn't cause government shutdowns,please remind me what does.

If the President vetoes the budget and the House and Senate fail to override that veto, the federal government would no longer be able to spend money it didn't have.  Personally, I strongly favor this approach.  But our government is filled with cowards at every level.