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Offline mystery-ak

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Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« on: December 25, 2020, 03:39:27 pm »
Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
The political right needs more self-analysis and less whataboutism.

Steven Greenhut | 12.25.2020 8:30 AM

One of the modern conservative movement's greatest leaders, the late William F. Buckley Jr., retold a fascinating story from the run-up to the 1964 presidential election. As he explained in The Wall Street Journal in 2008, Buckley and his allies convinced Barry Goldwater to distance himself from the John Birch Society—a conspiracy-minded group that touted his candidacy.

Buckley noted that the society's president, Robert Welch, had at the time a "near-hypnotic" influence on the Right, despite his "wild" ideas: "(Welch) said Dwight D. Eisenhower was a 'dedicated, conscious agent of the communist conspiracy,' and that the government of the United States was 'under operational control of the Communist Party.'"

Buckley realized that Welch's fixations did a disservice to the anti-communist cause. So he convinced Goldwater to reject the core fallacy—"the assumption that you can infer subjective intention from objective consequence: we lost China to the communists, therefore the president of the United States and the secretary of state wished China to go to the communists."

Goldwater, of course, gained the GOP nomination and lost the general-election vote by 23 percentage points. Thanks to Buckley's efforts, however, the GOP vanquished various fringe groups. The Goldwater candidacy built the foundation for the GOP's future and set the stage for a movement that helped topple the Evil Empire. Sometimes, losing is better than winning.

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https://reason.com/2020/12/25/can-conservatives-stop-their-movements-descent-into-madness/
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2020, 03:59:36 pm »
Right. It’s the conservatives who are descending into madness, not the left.

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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2020, 04:11:02 pm »
Quote from: skeeter on December 25, 2020, 03:59:36 pm
Right. It’s the conservatives who are descending into madness, not the left.
Our whole damn country is descending into madness at this point.
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Offline Victoria33

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2020, 04:38:27 pm »
@mystery-ak

Years ago, a close lady friend said this to me:
"You are another William Buckley and I don't understand anything he says, either."  From that time onward, I tried to use more common words when we had conversation.  Also, I was always interested in what Buckley had to say.  I was sorry he died - would like to have him here now...
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2020, 05:21:52 pm »
Quote from: Victoria33 on December 25, 2020, 04:38:27 pm
@mystery-ak

Years ago, a close lady friend said this to me:
"You are another William Buckley and I don't understand anything he says, either."  From that time onward, I tried to use more common words when we had conversation.  Also, I was always interested in what Buckley had to say.  I was sorry he died - would like to have him here now...

@Victoria33

I loved WFB, but sadly he would have been a Never Trump in 2016, and also would have been rooting for Joe Biden in 2020.  He might have tsk-tsked the election fraud, but would have been one of those urging to give up and let Uncle Sloe have his stolen prize.
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Offline Absalom

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2020, 05:52:22 pm »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on December 25, 2020, 05:21:52 pm
@Victoria33
I loved WFB, but sadly he would have been a Never Trump in 2016, and also would have been rooting for Joe Biden in 2020.  He might have tsk-tsked the election fraud, but would have been one of those urging to give up and let Uncle Sloe have his stolen prize.
---------------------------
A forceful demurral of an opinion that is nonsense, from one who knew them for many years!!!
Bill Buckley, Bill Rusher and Russ Kirk were Principled Conservatives, in the mold of Locke
and Burke, first, last and always. Additionally, they were political hacks, not ever!!!
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2020, 07:03:46 pm »
Quote from: skeeter on December 25, 2020, 03:59:36 pm
Right. It’s the conservatives who are descending into madness, not the left.

@skeeter

Since "madness" is the leftist starting point,he is right. They can't descend when they started out there.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2020, 07:05:51 pm »
Quote from: Absalom on December 25, 2020, 05:52:22 pm
---------------------------
A forceful demurral of an opinion that is nonsense, from one who knew them for many years!!!
Bill Buckley, Bill Rusher and Russ Kirk were Principled Conservatives, in the mold of Locke
and Burke, first, last and always. Additionally, they were political hacks, not ever!!!

Nope, not "nonsense."  The Lincoln Republicans said they were the only true Principled Conservatives, so I stand by my comment.  WFB would be celebrating the Biden win, and demanding Trump just give up.  And, he would have been screaming at Trump or the last 5 years for his tweets.
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Offline FeelNoPain

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2020, 07:23:47 pm »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on December 25, 2020, 05:21:52 pm
@Victoria33

I loved WFB, but sadly he would have been a Never Trump in 2016, and also would have been rooting for Joe Biden in 2020.  He might have tsk-tsked the election fraud, but would have been one of those urging to give up and let Uncle Sloe have his stolen prize.

    Then he would've been being consistent.
    Back in 1992, how many current Trump supporters (especially, evangelicals) were clutching their pearls and scoffing at the Dems for nominating immoral trash like Bill Clinton?
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2020, 07:28:52 pm »
Quote from: FeelNoPain on December 25, 2020, 07:23:47 pm
    Then he would've been being consistent.
    Back in 1992, how many current Trump supporters (especially, evangelicals) were clutching their pearls and scoffing at the Dems for nominating immoral trash like Bill Clinton?

Probably none.  Those voters are probably the ones who decided to flee Bush and voted for Pea-row, thus handing the Presidency to Clinton.

WFB was very much into being "stylish," and he would have sounded exactly like Jeffy Flake in his criticism of the hated Trump.
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Online andy58-in-nh

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2020, 07:48:53 pm »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on December 25, 2020, 07:05:51 pm
Nope, not "nonsense."  The Lincoln Republicans said they were the only true Principled Conservatives, so I stand by my comment.  WFB would be celebrating the Biden win, and demanding Trump just give up.  And, he would have been screaming at Trump or the last 5 years for his tweets.

Having had something more than a passing acquaintance with WFB and his long history of principled conservatism, I imagine that if he were still with us, he would be lamenting the fact that our choice for President was practically restricted to one man who has never been right about anything, and another man whose fatal flaw was the inability to admit ever being wrong about anything. 
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2020, 08:08:07 pm »
Quote from: sneakypete on December 25, 2020, 07:03:46 pm
@skeeter

Since "madness" is the leftist starting point,he is right. They can't descend when they started out there.
it’s always through the looking glass with these clowns. Seems no one has a sense of self awareness these days.

Merry Christmas S Pete!
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2020, 08:25:27 pm »
Quote from: andy58-in-nh on December 25, 2020, 07:48:53 pm
Having had something more than a passing acquaintance with WFB and his long history of principled conservatism, I imagine that if he were still with us, he would be lamenting the fact that our choice for President was practically restricted to one man who has never been right about anything, and another man whose fatal flaw was the inability to admit ever being wrong about anything.

I prefer to think WFB would have bitch-slapped his fellow conservatives talking about "flaws" and tweets and style and admonished them to wake up and smell the Marxism.  Who's fighting it?  Who's promoting it?  And our true national legacy.  Who's trying to save it?  Who's ripping it out by its roots?  Who's trying to prevent a race war?  Who's accomplishing one?

Pity we'll never know.   :shrug:
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2020, 09:33:17 pm »
The only person who would be able to tell us what William F. Buckley thought of Trump and Trumpism, particularly in its relation to the conservatism he preached, is William F. Buckley. Unfortunately, he's been dead for many years now.

You might be able to ask his brother James, whose conservatism matched William's quite closely, but he's 97 and there's no guarantee he's still 100% mentally there at that age.

But based on conjecture alone, my hunch would be that it would be quite similar to the consensus opinion (inasmuch as there is one) here: Trump is no conservative, but he is a nationalist who holds some positions that are of great value to and compatible with conservatism. I don't think he would've endorsed Trump in 2016 (maybe he would've said to stay home) but he might have in 2020. Not because he thought Biden was a danger, but because Biden is weak and easily manipulated in the event Democrats hijack Congress and begin pushing him around.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2020, 09:43:05 pm »
Quote from: jmyrlefuller on December 25, 2020, 09:33:17 pm
But based on conjecture alone, my hunch would be that it would be quite similar to the consensus opinion (inasmuch as there is one) here: Trump is no conservative, but he is a nationalist who holds some positions that are of great value to and compatible with conservatism. I don't think he would've endorsed Trump in 2016 (maybe he would've said to stay home) but he might have in 2020. Not because he thought Biden was a danger, but because Biden is weak and easily manipulated in the event Democrats hijack Congress and begin pushing him around.

WFB hated Nationalists, and throwing them out of the GOP was his big claim to fame, as the article alludes.  If he were consistent, he would have been as I described...Never trump all the way until now.  He'd be chewing us all out, who want justice for the unprecedented cheating, calling us "dead-enders" and demanding Trump give up before he ruins the GOPe.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2020, 11:00:16 pm »
Quote from: sneakypete on December 25, 2020, 07:03:46 pm
@skeeter

Since "madness" is the leftist starting point,he is right. They can't descend when they started out there.
What??? Sure they can, with 57 genders, degrees in 'social justice' and 'gender studies', they have pushed the boundaries of madness in new directions and farther than previously thought imaginable. They just have to dig harder to descend there. (Heck, some have even pushed through all the way to China!)
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2020, 11:07:14 pm »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on December 25, 2020, 09:43:05 pm
WFB hated Nationalists, and throwing them out of the GOP was his big claim to fame, as the article alludes.  If he were consistent, he would have been as I described...Never trump all the way until now.  He'd be chewing us all out, who want justice for the unprecedented cheating, calling us "dead-enders" and demanding Trump give up before he ruins the GOPe.
He'd definitely be chewing out a lot of these "alt-righters" who make the Birchers of his time look tame.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2020, 11:15:53 pm »
Quote from: jmyrlefuller on December 25, 2020, 11:07:14 pm
He'd definitely be chewing out a lot of these "alt-righters" who make the Birchers of his time look tame.
Despite the bad name the Birchers have been given, they were stoutly anti-Communist (why the society was formed) and pro Constitution.

Yes, Virginia, there are real racists out there, but aside from the misapplication of the term "Right-wing" to Nazis, I think the place to look for racists today is solidly on the Left.
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How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2020, 11:16:28 pm »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on December 25, 2020, 09:43:05 pm
WFB hated Nationalists, and throwing them out of the GOP was his big claim to fame, as the article alludes.  If he were consistent, he would have been as I described...Never trump all the way until now.  He'd be chewing us all out, who want justice for the unprecedented cheating, calling us "dead-enders" and demanding Trump give up before he ruins the GOPe.

I never set much store by Buckley. Too academic, and he reeks of back-east Republican-ism.
Never set much store in National Review either, and don't see much change now from what it was back in the day.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2020, 11:25:02 pm »
Quote from: jmyrlefuller on December 25, 2020, 11:07:14 pm
He'd definitely be chewing out a lot of these "alt-righters" who make the Birchers of his time look tame.

The Birchers WERE tame.  WFB unfairly smeared them as racists, to make a name for himself.  9999hair out0000
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2020, 11:40:04 pm »
Smokin Joe wrote (accurately):
"Despite the bad name the Birchers have been given, they were stoutly anti-Communist (why the society was formed) and pro Constitution."

Given a choice between William F. Buckley and Robert Welch...

... I reckon Mr. Welch to have been considerably more prescient about America's future than was Mr. Buckley (who always struck me as sort of "affected", anyway).
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2020, 11:49:26 pm »
Quote from: Smokin Joe on December 25, 2020, 11:00:16 pm
What??? Sure they can, with 57 genders, degrees in 'social justice' and 'gender studies', they have pushed the boundaries of madness in new directions and farther than previously thought imaginable. They just have to dig harder to descend there. (Heck, some have even pushed through all the way to China!)

@Smokin Joe

I stand corrected.

In my defense,I was suffering from a moment of sanity when I wrote that,and sanity has no place in 2020 murika.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2020, 11:52:50 pm »
Quote from: Fishrrman on December 25, 2020, 11:40:04 pm
Smokin Joe wrote (accurately):
 

...Mr. Buckley (who always struck me as sort of "affected", anyway).


@Fishrrman

Same here. Seemed like he couldn't express a thought without striking a pose first.
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Offline Absalom

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2020, 12:06:07 am »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on December 25, 2020, 07:05:51 pm
Nope, not "nonsense."  The Lincoln Republicans said they were the only true Principled Conservatives, so I stand by my comment.  WFB would be celebrating the Biden win, and demanding Trump just give up.  And, he would have been screaming at Trump or the last 5 years for his tweets.
--------------------------------
Stand by any opinion you choose, no matter how ludicrous.
Any issue of National Review during the tenures of Buckley/Editor and Rusher/Publisher,
would affirm their mutual dedication to Principled Conservatism and utter rejection of
sanctimonious politics, the yip-yap of all self-labeled 'leaders'.
As for the Principled Conservatism of Locke & Burke, it was the legacy of our Southern
Agrarian & Rural Democrats, among them Founders Jefferson, Madison & Monroe.
The Republican Party, not yet in existence for another 80 years, had absolutely nothing
to do with this as the GOP was birthed by Fremont in 1856, promoting strong centralized government, aggressive trade protectionism and judicial activism, the Republican heritage throughout their political ascendancy from Lincoln till Hover in 1932.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Can Conservatives Stop Their Movement's Descent Into Madness?
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2020, 12:23:25 am »
Quote from: sneakypete on December 25, 2020, 11:49:26 pm
@Smokin Joe

I stand corrected.

In my defense,I was suffering from a moment of sanity when I wrote that,and sanity has no place in 2020 murika.
Sure it does, don'cha know. Sane folks are a far-right fringe group...
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How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis
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