Gaming Out a MAGA Party

[Hoodat]

How about a Republican Party that actually offered an alternative to Big Government?

[roamer_1]

How about a Republican Party that actually offered an alternative to Big Government?

Not gonna happen... But then, neither is a MAGA party.

[Hoodat]

The GOP did better in this past election than Trump did.

Only in counties where coordinated fraud took place.  In the remaining counties, Trump did just as well or even better than the GOP.

[Hoodat]

Not gonna happen...

<sigh>

Sadly, you are correct.  People who aspire to power have every intent of using that power.  The limited government idealist has the deck stacked against him from the start.

[roamer_1]

<sigh>

Sadly, you are correct.  People who aspire to power have every intent of using that power.  The limited government idealist has the deck stacked against him from the start.

   yup.

[corbe]

[goatprairie]

First @goatprairie Donald J. Trump won this election in an electoral landslide.  Massive, coordinated election and voter fraud stole is from all of us, including you.  The proof is out there: coordinated shutdown of counting, thousands of pages of sworn testimony, forensic audits finding the algorithms proving electronic vote manipulation, hookups of voting machines to the Internet, video tapes, photographs --- the fraud is all documented and in the public arena.  But you don't care, at all. It's much too messy --- and besides, the Orange Man Bad.

You go on to say "the idea of creating a new party is a great recipe for a complete disaster".  If we can cut to the chase here, permit me to say that this is a "disaster" only for you and the rest of your GOP. You want peace and quiet; no more chaos, no more tweeting, no more exposing the hypocrisy of the inbred GOP.  You can't wait to get back to keeping your head down, with no expectations of success, no angst, and most of all: no confrontation.  You'll have that again when the GOP regains its normal footing as the minority party of losers.

On the other hand, Trump supporters welcome the challenges, the noise, the interruptions that come with fighting, actually fighting, for the nation as founded.  And they engage to WIN.  You don't want Trump supporters in your party any more than Trump supporters want to be there.  This is the perfect time for an amicable, no-fault divorce.

And then the GOP can fade away.  Losing the Senate is step one, forming another party is step two, cleaning the remnant GOP inbreds out of Congress in 2022 is step three, winning it all back under the new party is step four. There will be one helluva fight.   But unlike the GOP, Trump supporters run toward the sound of gunfire, not from it.  And they're ready.

No more compromise, no more fingers in the dam, no more excuses.  You've had your shot and you have blown it. Thanks for trying, but the GOP needs to be done.  Making it so will be a pleasure.  Godspeed.

Have you found any people i.e. people with money offering to create a new party? I haven't seen or read anything about people who are doing so.
How do you expect to get the new party created, organized, and funded?

[goatprairie]

For most,  this was a lesser of two evils election.   That's why I voted down ballot only.

Most elections are the lesser of two evils kinds of elections. I'm happy if I get half of what any candidate I vote for promises.

[goatprairie]

Here's the acknowledgement: The GOP did better up and down the ballot BECAUSE it is the party of President Trump. What the GOP did down ballot is merely evidence of the fraud that occurred in the Presidential race and in a few very key Senate races...take away the fraud and you have a Trump big win AND strong GOP performance at all levels of the ballot. That success IS Trump's leadership at work in turning the party...against strong resistance from the RINO/NT's...towards a true populist conservatism. We aren't AT that full destination yet...but the drive toward's it will not be stopped. Honestly, if you're a NeverTrumper, you are genuinely not welcome amongst conservatives OR Republicans going forward...because you are the problem...you are the useful idiots the Left is happy to use to further their cause.

Yes, well then you're left to answer the question as to if they fixed the vote, why they didn't fix it to get down ballot Pubbies defeated? Why screw Trump and not other Pubbie pols who if elected will most likely foul up Biden's attempts to pass radical leftist legislation?

[Mesaclone]

THAT...is an interesting and relevant point.

[Mesaclone]

Yes, well then you're left to answer the question as to if they fixed the vote, why they didn't fix it to get down ballot Pubbies defeated? Why screw Trump and not other Pubbie pols who if elected will most likely foul up Biden's attempts to pass radical leftist legislation?

I already answered this...they didn't yet have the means, time and capability to impact the entire down ballot without their actions being observable...or at least, MORE observable. They took a great risk doing as they did...and were nearly exposed by having to up the theft as they were facing a bit of a Trump Tsunami in the battleground states. They did what they could and targeted it at Trump...but do not doubt that this was a beginning, not an end. They will extend their fraud to more and more levels of voting as they perfect their ability to conceal their actions.

[goatprairie]

--------------------
Again, on the money; plus an anecdote from history.
The GOP was the errand boy for Industrial Capitalism, post-Civil War.
As such, they rejected Free Trade, embracing rigorous Protectionism.
Their Carny-Barker was POTUS McKinley of Ohio who in 1896, demanded
Congress enact his massive Tariff Bill "to protect our infant industries!!!"
At the time the 3 largest corporations in the world were U.S. Steel,
Standard Oil and Edison Electric; hardly in need of any protection.
Yet the GOP has always been oblivious to irony.

Trump had an excellent example of ruinous tariffs with the Bush II admin. They passed steel tariffs early in Dubya's first term and then rescinded them one year later. Why?
Because, due to The Law Of Unintended Consequences, hundreds of thousands of steel industry-related jobs were lost due to the tariffs.
At least the Bush admin had the good sense to rescind the ruinous tariffs.
Trump's tariffs have bankrupted thousands of farmers.
Protectionism is not the way to go.

[Mesaclone]

Have you found any people i.e. people with money offering to create a new party? I haven't seen or read anything about people who are doing so.
How do you expect to get the new party created, organized, and funded?

Where the President leads after this election, most current Republicans/Conservatives will follow. Either he will take control of the mechanisms of the GOP and deeply reform it...or he will initiate an entirely new party structure altogether. I hope it is the first option, as that is certainly the quicker and more easily accomplished path...the second option would likely mean major defeats as the old GOP split between itself and a new MAGA party...and in the short term that will greatly benefit the Dems.

[goatprairie]

I already answered this...they didn't yet have the means, time and capability to impact the entire down ballot without their actions being observable...or at least, MORE observable. They took a great risk doing as they did...and were nearly exposed by having to up the theft as they were facing a bit of a Trump Tsunami in the battleground states. They did what they could and targeted it at Trump...but do not doubt that this was a beginning, not an end. They will extend their fraud to more and more levels of voting as they perfect their ability to conceal their actions.

How do you know they didn't possess the means? Sure they did. If they could fix the algorithms to screw Trump, they could certainly do it for down ballot Pubbies.
It wouldn't make any sense to get rid of Trump and not get rid of Pubbies who are going to block Biden.
But maybe they didn't fix the election. Maybe, just maybe, Biden legitimately got seven or eight million more votes than Trump because (1) mail-in voting is a lot easier to do than going to some polling place and waiting in line for an hour or two in bad weather, and (2)  many people were so highly irritated with the 74 year old going on five brat in the WH they couldn't wait to vote him out of office. And many of those irritated voters might have voted for Trump if he hadn't presented himself in such an unpresidential manner.

[Mesaclone]

How do you know they didn't possess the means? Sure they did. If they could fix the algorithms to screw Trump, they could certainly do it for down ballot Pubbies.
It wouldn't make any sense to get rid of Trump and not get rid of Pubbies who are going to block Biden.
But maybe they didn't fix the election. Maybe, just maybe, Biden legitimately got seven or eight million more votes than Trump because (1) mail-in voting is a lot easier to do than going to some polling place and waiting in line for an hour or two in bad weather, and (2)  many people were so highly irritated with the 74 year old going on five brat in the WH they couldn't wait to vote him out of office. And many of those irritated voters might have voted for Trump if he hadn't presented himself in such an unpresidential manner.

The bigger the fraud, the greater the magnitude of the cheat, the more likely they are to be exposed. Much smarter to keep it focused and specific. As for your silly descriptions of the President, you are projecting your own feelings to others and that's just not the case for the vast majority of Republicans/Conservatives. You are part of a tiny minority within the party...a group of bitter "oh the horror" milque-toasts who buy into this baloney the Left peddles in trying to define the President. He IS of course a bit uncouth and sometimes crude...its the fighter in him...but just like extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, so too crudeness in the face of criminality and injustice is hardly worthy of note. Folks like yourself want to MAKE that the issue...which is being a "useful idiot" of the Left by distracting from the real issues over which the President is angered and disgusted (corruption and bias of the press, efforts to curb 2A rights, lying about how the nation met the Covid problem, etcetera.)

Stop being a useful idiot...which is essentially what the anti-Trump element of the party has become...and face the real enemy that Trump is fighting...Socialism and the end of the Republic.

[Absalom]

How about a Republican Party that actually offered an alternative to Big Government?

------------------
The primacy of States Rights was the legacy of our Southern Agrarian & Rural Democrats;
birthed by our Founders through the legacy of the English Whig Tradition.
The 1860 Republicans opposed States Rights; promoting strong centralized government,
as industrial Capitalism became the economic core of our economy.
It was a basis of their platform throughout their political ascendancy from Lincoln to Hoover.

[Mesaclone]

------------------
The primacy of States Rights was the legacy of our Southern Agrarian & Rural Democrats;
birthed by our Founders through the legacy of the English Whig Tradition.
The 1860 Republicans opposed States Rights; promoting strong centralized government,
as industrial Capitalism became the economic core of our economy.
It was a basis of their platform throughout their political ascendancy from Lincoln to Hoover.

Anyone can wikipedia events, Absalom, but citing them in a way that is relevant and applicable is another story...as you repeatedly demonstrate. History offers an ocean of analogies and events that bear some surface similarity with what we face today...and the parties of the 19th century carried some seeds of what the parties have now become. But the fact that Republicans in the 1860's opposed states rights...which they primarily did because they were deeply opposed to secession and the idea of extending slavery into new territories as they became states...is not particularly relevant to today. The lessons learned from such positions in the 1860's are minimal...beyond the general lessons that all history can teach.

Supporting industrial and technological capitalism...or rather...capitalism in general...is at the core of modern conservatism. This does not mean state directed Capitalism as we see in China, but rather a state that frees and empowers capitalistic mechanisms to perform with minimal hindrance in our national economy. That, of course has limits, and the use of our own tariffs to discipline and discourage nations that refuse themselves to allow free trade via currency manipulation, tariffs and other illegal practices is certainly within the bounds of those striving for a free and capitalistic governance.

The President IS a populist...something of which you seem oddly disdainful. His also a committed Capitalist and has governed as a staunch conservative...much like Reagan himself did in the 1980's. He also IS a powerful advocate for free trade and has used tariffs as a weapon to encourage free trade globally...having our markets open while our enemies remain mostly closed is not free trade, and the President is highly consistent with conservative principles when he uses our own tariffs to create freer trade around the globe. Doing otherwise would be idiocy.

[Hoodat]

------------------
The primacy of States Rights was the legacy of our Southern Agrarian & Rural Democrats;
birthed by our Founders through the legacy of the English Whig Tradition.

Uh, no.  It came about long before Democrats or Whigs.  Nothing English about it either.  Supporters were eager to further limit the power of our brand new federal government by expressly putting in writing that powers not expressly delegated to the federal government or denied the States would fall to the States or to the people themselves.

As for your 1860 Republicans, I believe you may have the timeline off slightly.  Once the War of Secession commenced, all bets were off.  But the 1856 platform expressly upheld the rights of States against a lawless Federal Government, even calling for the admission of Kansas into the Union so that they could gain Amendment X protections under the Constitution.

[skeeter]

The bigger the fraud, the greater the magnitude of the cheat, the more likely they are to be exposed. Much smarter to keep it focused and specific. As for your silly descriptions of the President, you are projecting your own feelings to others and that's just not the case for the vast majority of Republicans/Conservatives. You are part of a tiny minority within the party...a group of bitter "oh the horror" milque-toasts who buy into this baloney the Left peddles in trying to define the President. He IS of course a bit uncouth and sometimes crude...its the fighter in him...but just like extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, so too crudeness in the face of criminality and injustice is hardly worthy of note. Folks like yourself want to MAKE that the issue...which is being a "useful idiot" of the Left by distracting from the real issues over which the President is angered and disgusted (corruption and bias of the press, efforts to curb 2A rights, lying about how the nation met the Covid problem, etcetera.)

Stop being a useful idiot...which is essentially what the anti-Trump element of the party has become...and face the real enemy that Trump is fighting...Socialism and the end of the Republic.

Thanks for saying this. Seems some are suffering from target - orange man - fixation to the peril of all of us.

[Hoodat]

This lie about the President losing support over the last four years keeps getting repeated on this forum.  So I decided to look at all the Presidential incumbents since 1900 to see how their numbers fared.  Here is the list sorted by percentage gain over the previous  election.

From 1900 to 2012, only the bottom four in this list lost re-election.  And Trump ranked ahead of Clinton, Obama, Eisenhower, McKinley, and two of FDR's three bids.  So no, Trump did not lose support.  In fact, his gain in total votes was third highest on record.  So no, this isn't because Trump lost support.  It is because a number of votes were recorded on the other side that far exceeded election norms.

Year	President	Vote Gain (mil)	Percent Gain/Loss	Result
1972	NIXON	15.03	47.40	Won
1916	WILSON	2.84	45.07	Won
1984	REAGAN	10.55	24.04	Won
2004	GW BUSH	11.58	22.96	Won
1936	FDR	4.93	21.60	Won
2020	TRUMP	11.24	17.84	???
1996	CLINTON	2.49	5.55	Won
1956	IKE	1.80	5.33	Won
1900	McKINLEY	0.10	1.45	Won
1940	FDR	-0.51	-1.83	Won
2012	OBAMA	-3.58	-5.16	Won
1944	FDR	-1.64	-6.03	Won
1980	CARTER	-5.34	-13.08	Lost
1992	GHW BUSH	-9.78	-20.01	Lost
1932	HOOVER	-5.63	-26.32	Lost
1912	TAFT	-4.19	-54.63	Lost

Now explain to me how Trump can vastly outperform six other Presidents on that list, yet still end up with less votes than his challenger?

[roamer_1]

His also a committed Capitalist and has governed as a staunch conservative....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

THAT's a laugh riot, right there.

[catfish1957]

Now explain to me how Trump can vastly outperform six other Presidents on that list, yet still end up with less votes than his challenger?

I don't care how much evidence is presented, there are a few Trump haters here who will not accept the obviously implausible.

The one that I was here, and personally watched was the "magical" pause in swing state  vote counting at the same time, with all pausing states reversing trends at the exact same time.  It had the feel of someone remotely flipping a switch.

[Absalom]

Anyone can wikipedia events, Absalom, but citing them in a way that is relevant and applicable is another story...as you repeatedly demonstrate. History offers an ocean of analogies and events that bear some surface similarity with what we face today...and the parties of the 19th century carried some seeds of what the parties have now become. But the fact that Republicans in the 1860's opposed states rights...which they primarily did because they were deeply opposed to secession and the idea of extending slavery into new territories as they became states...is not particularly relevant to today. The lessons learned from such positions in the 1860's are minimal...beyond the general lessons that all history can teach.

Supporting industrial and technological capitalism...or rather...capitalism in general...is at the core of modern conservatism. This does not mean state directed Capitalism as we see in China, but rather a state that frees and empowers capitalistic mechanisms to perform with minimal hindrance in our national economy. That, of course has limits, and the use of our own tariffs to discipline and discourage nations that refuse themselves to allow free trade via currency manipulation, tariffs and other illegal practices is certainly within the bounds of those striving for a free and capitalistic governance.

The President IS a populist...something of which you seem oddly disdainful. His also a committed Capitalist and has governed as a staunch conservative...much like Reagan himself did in the 1980's. He also IS a powerful advocate for free trade and has used tariffs as a weapon to encourage free trade globally...having our markets open while our enemies remain mostly closed is not free trade, and the President is highly consistent with conservative principles when he uses our own tariffs to create freer trade around the globe. Doing otherwise would be idiocy.

--------------------------------
Urge you to distain your sanctimonious generalities and get acquainted w/the realities of history.
* The Republicans were errand boys for the New England Mercantile Class and later Industrial
Capitalists; promoting strong centralized governance, aggressive trade protectionism and judicial activism during their 75 year political ascendancy from Fremont in 1856 till Hoover; erecting the governance which exists in our nation, at this moment. Reality!
* Principled Conservatism, birthed by the likes of Sargon, Hammurabi and wise Greeks, such as
Plato, is a body of unchanging precepts which are the basis for Man's conduct, involving attitudes, behaviors, impulses and sentiments about human nature which are totally independent of economics, ideology, politics and religion. COMPLETELY!!!
* Trump is an entertainer in the mold of Groucho Marx who wouldn't know Populism, Capitalism or
Conservatism from an Apprentice Script. As for Tariffs, they are simply economic leverage applied
to fatten the wallets of crony capitalists such as Trump!

[bilo]

I don't care how much evidence is presented, there are a few Trump haters here who will not accept the obviously implausible.

The one that I was here, and personally watched was the "magical" pause in swing state  vote counting at the same time, with all pausing states reversing trends at the exact same time.  It had the feel of someone remotely flipping a switch.

Well the good news is that Tuberville is on board with Brooks and they will be challenging the electors from the swing States on Jan 6. At the minimum we will know which Pub Senators to support in the future.

[Absalom]

Uh, no.  It came about long before Democrats or Whigs.  Nothing English about it either.  Supporters were eager to further limit the power of our brand new federal government by expressly putting in writing that powers not expressly delegated to the federal government or denied the States would fall to the States or to the people themselves.
As for your 1860 Republicans, I believe you may have the timeline off slightly.  Once the War of Secession commenced, all bets were off.  But the 1856 platform expressly upheld the rights of States against a lawless Federal Government, even calling for the admission of Kansas into the Union so that they could gain Amendment X protections under the Constitution.

----------------------------
Emphatically and categorically disagree !!!
Our legacy developed from the English Colonists starting w/Jamestown in 1607!
Some 400 years earlier, Magna Carta had diluted some of the absolute power of   
English Monarchical Rule, planting the seeds of decentralized authority.
Over the centuries, this became an integral component of English Common Law
and Governance, unlike their continental colleagues.
In turn, it was actively promoted by our Founding Fathers who, by the way, were
English Citizens, before our Independence.