Author Topic: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study  (Read 1672 times)

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2020, 04:25:26 pm »
What doesn't make sense is for all medical trials to only consist of hydroxychloroquine, Zinc Sulfate, Azithromycin based on the unsubstantiated claims of one doctor and the President's hunch about this stuff, even if his brother was a doctor.

The VA did a study with hydroxychloroquine alone, and hydroxychloroquine in combination with azithromycin.  They failed to include zinc sulfate with any trial.  THAT is what doesn't make sense.

If these so-called medical experts performed a trial based solely on a comment President Trump made instead of following up on an actual medical trial, then they should have their licenses taken away and held liable for medical malpractice.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2020, 09:11:51 pm »
At least this is what one doctor in NY is telling us.  I was agreeing with a fellow Briefer last night that immediacy and panic helped sell $2.8T in 4 recent laws.  The Chinese and French said hydroxychloroquine might be useful against COVID-19 so it makes sense to test it.  What doesn't make sense is for all medical trials to only consist of hydroxychloroquine, Zinc Sulfate, Azithromycin based on the unsubstantiated claims of one doctor and the President's hunch about this stuff, even if his brother was a doctor.

If my doctor came to me and said we want to try a combination of drugs that we haven't tested individually and hope something works, I'd get a new doctor and tell him I am not panicked by immediacy.
In full disclosure, your doctor would also tell you that the three together are most effective in the earlier stages of the disease, before people have gone so far down hill they need a ventilator. By then much of the alveolar damage is done.

Now, let's define "untested". Where all three have been used before the patient going on a ventilator, there has been report of good results.
Where one or two of the three drugs has been used, or just the hydroxychloroquine, the results have not been as good.

Why? For starters, it is the Zinc, admitted to the cell by the action of the hydroxychloroquine, which inhibits viral replication, stopping the virus from reproducing and saving the cell. Without it, there is no active ingredient to stop the virus.

The Azithromycin has a mild effect on the immune system, helping prevent cytokine storm, acts to stop bacterial opportunistic infections, and may interfere slightly with viral replication as well.

What IS evident without going to the trouble of killing people with placebo studies, is that if you leave one of those three legs off the pharmacological stool, you will end up flat on your ass. Leaving the zinc out condemned these people to death. What's more, an opportunity was lost, not only to save lives, but to fully test the regimen as it was announced by the doctor who came up with it, a doctor who explained in simple terms what each of the three medications did to work together to defeat the virus. All the more shameful, imho.

If you want an "approved method", as in FDA approved, I must ask if you know how long it takes to get FDA approval for a drug or combination of drugs for a specific use, or what is involved.
Tiered double blind studies, which have patients who get the drug and patients who do not, must be conducted in order to establish efficacy vs doing nothing. Side effects must be documented and analyzed statistically. These tests and the write-ups can take a year or more. Some of the patients will receive placebos instead of medication, and may very well die as a result.

Considering this is a novel virus, one that has never been seen before (except, perhaps, inside a Chinese lab), there is NO "FDA approved" regimen of treatment. This is ad-lib, improvisation, trial and error, call it what you will, but we know that opening pathways into the cell but not putting zinc through them to stop the virus, even with Azithromycin, doesn't work. I guess the VA proved that.
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But there is huge money in developing and requiring a vaccine, while people lose everything they own on lockdown (or the country is bankrupted bailing them out). There will be properties to be picked up for pennies by the banks, and resold for enormous profit, while the value of the dollar may even crumble to the point it is no longer the world's reserve currency.  The effects of that are guaranteed to be devastating on a scale and scope that will make The Great Depression take second place. And then there is the political value (for some) in saying "We did what you said and it didn't work." as if that was a shield for criminal incompetence.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 09:14:05 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2020, 10:01:40 pm »
In full disclosure, your doctor would also tell you that the three together are most effective in the earlier stages of the disease, before people have gone so far down hill they need a ventilator. By then much of the alveolar damage is done.

Now, let's define "untested". Where all three have been used before the patient going on a ventilator, there has been report of good results.
Where one or two of the three drugs has been used, or just the hydroxychloroquine, the results have not been as good.

Why? For starters, it is the Zinc, admitted to the cell by the action of the hydroxychloroquine, which inhibits viral replication, stopping the virus from reproducing and saving the cell. Without it, there is no active ingredient to stop the virus.

The Azithromycin has a mild effect on the immune system, helping prevent cytokine storm, acts to stop bacterial opportunistic infections, and may interfere slightly with viral replication as well.

What IS evident without going to the trouble of killing people with placebo studies, is that if you leave one of those three legs off the pharmacological stool, you will end up flat on your ass. Leaving the zinc out condemned these people to death. What's more, an opportunity was lost, not only to save lives, but to fully test the regimen as it was announced by the doctor who came up with it, a doctor who explained in simple terms what each of the three medications did to work together to defeat the virus. All the more shameful, imho.

If you want an "approved method", as in FDA approved, I must ask if you know how long it takes to get FDA approval for a drug or combination of drugs for a specific use, or what is involved.
Tiered double blind studies, which have patients who get the drug and patients who do not, must be conducted in order to establish efficacy vs doing nothing. Side effects must be documented and analyzed statistically. These tests and the write-ups can take a year or more. Some of the patients will receive placebos instead of medication, and may very well die as a result.

Considering this is a novel virus, one that has never been seen before (except, perhaps, inside a Chinese lab), there is NO "FDA approved" regimen of treatment. This is ad-lib, improvisation, trial and error, call it what you will, but we know that opening pathways into the cell but not putting zinc through them to stop the virus, even with Azithromycin, doesn't work. I guess the VA proved that.
.
But there is huge money in developing and requiring a vaccine, while people lose everything they own on lockdown (or the country is bankrupted bailing them out). There will be properties to be picked up for pennies by the banks, and resold for enormous profit, while the value of the dollar may even crumble to the point it is no longer the world's reserve currency.  The effects of that are guaranteed to be devastating on a scale and scope that will make The Great Depression take second place. And then there is the political value (for some) in saying "We did what you said and it didn't work." as if that was a shield for criminal incompetence.

Fantastic post and a great argument.  Probably better than mine will be.  You've weaved a cohesive, well thought-out, and an easily understood well written argument.  I couldn't be happier, this is why I come here.  This is why I think you're awesome @Smokin Joe .  This is why people come to the briefingroom.

There has been anecdotal evidence that the three drugs combined produce results.  I don't know why other tests are/or are not being conducted.  My post was to explain why I understand scientists testing one or two drugs at a time to measure efficacy and side-effects.  You, Dr Zelenko, and President Trump could be right about your hunches.  Hopefully more trials will be documented.  I think they will. 

It is unfortunate that there is some evidence that the 3 drugs work best before lethal symptoms set in...this will make trials more difficult if the medicinal cocktail is ineffective for patients who do not show signs of the virus.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2020, 10:15:32 pm »
Fantastic post and a great argument.  Probably better than mine will be.  You've weaved a cohesive, well thought-out, and an easily understood well written argument.  I couldn't be happier, this is why I come here.  This is why I think you're awesome @Smokin Joe .  This is why people come to the briefingroom.

There has been anecdotal evidence that the three drugs combined produce results.  I don't know why other tests are/or are not being conducted.  My post was to explain why I understand scientists testing one or two drugs at a time to measure efficacy and side-effects.  You, Dr Zelenko, and President Trump could be right about your hunches.  Hopefully more trials will be documented.  I think they will. 

It is unfortunate that there is some evidence that the 3 drugs work best before lethal symptoms set in...this will make trials more difficult if the medicinal cocktail is ineffective for patients who do not show signs of the virus.

The Medicos need to draw a line.  There's treatment before needing a ventilator, and a new regime must apply when it's too late to prevent the lungs from filling up. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2020, 10:25:53 pm »
Fantastic post and a great argument.  Probably better than mine will be.  You've weaved a cohesive, well thought-out, and an easily understood well written argument.  I couldn't be happier, this is why I come here.  This is why I think you're awesome @Smokin Joe .  This is why people come to the briefingroom.

There has been anecdotal evidence that the three drugs combined produce results.  I don't know why other tests are/or are not being conducted.  My post was to explain why I understand scientists testing one or two drugs at a time to measure efficacy and side-effects.  You, Dr Zelenko, and President Trump could be right about your hunches.  Hopefully more trials will be documented.  I think they will. 

It is unfortunate that there is some evidence that the 3 drugs work best before lethal symptoms set in...this will make trials more difficult if the medicinal cocktail is ineffective for patients who do not show signs of the virus.
Prefacing this with the requisite "I am not a Doctor", I'm just a scientist.
It is understandablethe the drugs which prevent or stop viral replication would work best at early onset. A quick smackdown, eliminate the virii while they are few, and the patient loses fewer vital type 1 pneumocytes (the lung cells that conduct Oxygen and CO2 exchange with the blood). (Type 2 pneumocytes produce surfactants that basically lubricate the lungs and keep them elastic).
The Hydroxychloroquine/Azithromycin/Zinc Sulfate regimen is likely not the only way to accomplish stopping the virus and killing it off. There has been research into antivirals and some of those may help, or even show similar (or possibly better) efficacy. But the Hydroxychloroquine/Azithromycin/Zinc Sulfate does have going for it is this: The drugs are known, side effects have been documented, they are an "off the shelf" solution to the problem and the course Dr Zelenko used is under $100.00 Affordable for most anyone, cheap enough to give away to those who can't.
Which means it can be deployed in use against SARS-CoV-2 quickly where desperately needed (if governors and others trying to count political coup on the POTUS will get with the program and think of the lives they are more likely to save, even if the ICUs sit with 'regular' patients and ventilators sit in storage.
Something has been raised, though which is of concern.
There has been a report of possible evidence of diffuse (cytokine related?) thrombosis in otherwise asymptomatic or apparently recovered persons. Idiopathic (we don't know what caused it) diffuse clotting, especially contributing to or causing death of vital organs and the patient, is a scary thing, and I think the sooner that mechanism is understood in relation to SARS-CoV-2, the better, and if that is something else, and not SARS-CoV-2 we should know that, too.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2020, 10:40:17 pm »
The Medicos need to draw a line.  There's treatment before needing a ventilator, and a new regime must apply when it's too late to prevent the lungs from filling up.
I think the tipping point is where the viral invasion stops being the most damaging aspect, and the body's immune system takes over that role. Sure, the virus still needs to be stopped, but the overactive immune response ("cytokine storm") may be responsible for even more damage at that point and needs to be addressed too.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2020, 12:05:22 am »
I think the tipping point is where the viral invasion stops being the most damaging aspect, and the body's immune system takes over that role. Sure, the virus still needs to be stopped, but the overactive immune response ("cytokine storm") may be responsible for even more damage at that point and needs to be addressed too.

The "Storm" is the kill shot that causes the patient to expire, drowning in their own mucous.  The virus just tees up the ball.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2020, 01:01:41 am »
The "Storm" is the kill shot that causes the patient to expire, drowning in their own mucous.  The virus just tees up the ball.
Basically true.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2020, 01:22:25 am »
Basically true.

Well, unless a Heart Attack or opportunistic bacterium gets them first.  :shrug:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2020, 01:33:36 am »
Well, unless a Heart Attack or opportunistic bacterium gets them first.  :shrug:
Well, there is always sepsis or massive organ failure.  :shrug:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2020, 01:42:28 am »
Well, there is always sepsis or massive organ failure.  :shrug:

Just about any preexisting condition known to medical science can contribute to a COVID death.  One could be forgiven for thinking that's evidence it was created by somebody, rather than started spontaneously in nature.

 :pondering:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2020, 01:56:55 am »
Just about any preexisting condition known to medical science can contribute to a COVID death.  One could be forgiven for thinking that's evidence it was created by somebody, rather than started spontaneously in nature.

 :pondering:
With the research that had been conducted, was being conducted, destroyed samples and records, location, location, location, and US funding pulled from their BSL-4 lab, It would be hard to forgive any thought but that this was lab created.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2020, 02:46:49 am »
With the research that had been conducted, was being conducted, destroyed samples and records, location, location, location, and US funding pulled from their BSL-4 lab, It would be hard to forgive any thought but that this was lab created.

It's a perfect pathogen for bio warfare.  The very lengthy incubation causes it to spread far and wide, one person can unwittingly infect hundreds, maybe thousands of other people by simply breathing and expelling saliva with every syllable spoken.  It survives hours or even days on non-porous surfaces.  We've been blessed in the past with pathogens that kill off the patients quickly or can't survive outside a host, like Ebola. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed: