Author Topic: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?  (Read 1947 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80,153
Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
Yahoo News, Apr 8, 2020

[...]

Marik is promoting a treatment of his own devising, a combination of corticosteroids and high-dose ascorbic acid, or vitamin C, as a first-line therapy for patients hospitalized with COVID-19. Marik is a respected clinician, chief of Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine at Eastern Virginia Medical School. The protocol is controversial and untested, but the theory behind it illuminates a growing shift in thinking about the disease that may have important implications for how it is treated.

Marik’s theory is based on an idea that is becoming widespread among researchers: that the cause of death for a significant number of COVID-19 patients, especially younger ones, is severe inflammation of the lungs resulting from an overly vigorous immune-system response. By administering anti-inflammatory drugs early and regularly after a patient is admitted to the emergency room, Marik believes he can prevent this complication, known as a “cytokine storm.”

In those cases, “it’s not the virus that’s killing the host, it’s the host’s response to the virus,” said Marik. Coronavirus is highly contagious and can cause fatal disease in some patients, but immune reactions to the infection varies dramatically from person to person.

“People who are doing fine don’t need steroids, it’s the people who get sick from the storm,” Marik said. “Corticosteroids are really effective in downregulating that storm.”


More:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/rethinking-coronavirus-some-doctors-question-how-we-use-ventilators-123733204.html

Offline Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80,153
FTA

Quote
“COVID-19 lung disease, as far as I can see, is not a pneumonia and should not be treated as one,” said Kyle-Sidell. “Rather, it appears as if some kind of viral-induced disease most resembling high altitude sickness. It is as if tens of thousands of my fellow New Yorkers are on a plane at 30,000 feet and the cabin pressure is slowly being let out. These patients are slowly being starved of oxygen.”

He now believes the treatment method being widely adopted for those suffering from coronavirus-induced lung disease is based on “a false paradigm.”

“I fear,” he said, that using ventilators “to increase pressure on the lungs in order to open them up, is actually doing more harm than good, and that the pressure we are providing to lungs, we may be providing to lungs that cannot take it, and that the ARDS that we are seeing may be nothing more than lung injury caused by the ventilator.”

“COVID-positive patients need oxygen, they do not need pressure,” he argued.

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,894
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Feed them curry (Turmeric).

The logic behind the Hydroxychloroquine/Azithromycin/Zinc Sulfate regimen is to prevent the viral invasion of the pneumocytes, thereby preventing morbidity, and with Zithromax providing some immunological reaction moderation, as well as providing some defense against opportunistic bacterial infection, something common to macrolide antibiotics.
 
The dead cells, invaded and killed by the virus, are apparently the problem, because the body's immune system responds to those dead cells, in proportion to their numbers. That means a lot of mucous/pus, and the patient drowns on the one hand and suffers a deficit of alveolar cells to carry on gas exchange with the bloodstream until the destroyed cells are replaced.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline PeteS in CA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,305
This "cytokine storm" phenomenon, if true, opens an avenue of research into using anti-inflammatory drugs. I've seen colchicine mentioned in another thread, a very old medication (19th Century!) for gout that traces back to a plant used for arthritis as far back as ancient Egypt.

And, yes, colchicine has been very helpful for me.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,702
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
From a friend who just happens to be an MD in private practice for many years:

 
Quote
Covid 19 Update Treatment. Ok warning I’m going to rant just a bit. There is NO treatment approved by the FDA or any other group of “EXPERTS “. They demand randomized double blind placebo controlled studies. Yep no Docs are going to argue against that standard “when you have the time”. Knock Knock hey experts news flash we are in a pandemic and people are passing away in large numbers every day. We have to go on an old thing that’s been denigrated for years and it’s called “clinical judgement”. We have to be allowed to use everything available that might work. We have to always weigh the risk vs benefits on everything we do. Patients need to have the “right “ to decide with informed consent what risk they want to take. Just in the last 2 days Docs are looking at the way ventilators are being set up in Covid patients and it looks like the early assumptions “may” have been incorrect. Thus clinical judgement comes in to play sorry FDA no time for a long “clinical trials “. There are several recipes that are being tried OFF LABEL and I will go over them next time. Standing by and watching people die and do nothing but put them on a vent is in my opinion not the best course of action.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 05:55:40 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,608
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
American AMA medicine leaves a lot to be desired on many illnesses.  Long gone are the days they focus on cure, for their focus os keeping the patient a lifelong patient.

People like Dr. Fauci are killing people with their adherence to their bureaucratic methods. 

I know one doctor in New York using the Hydroxy and Zithromax as a therapy who has treated over 800 patients, without losing one patient.  But hey, Fauci needs his double blind secret probation studies before he supports anything.  What an Animal House!!!

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
American AMA medicine leaves a lot to be desired on many illnesses.  Long gone are the days they focus on cure, for their focus os keeping the patient a lifelong patient.

People like Dr. Fauci are killing people with their adherence to their bureaucratic methods. 

I know one doctor in New York using the Hydroxy and Zithromax as a therapy who has treated over 800 patients, without losing one patient.  But hey, Fauci needs his double blind secret probation studies before he supports anything.  What an Animal House!!!

Doctors who belong to AMA generally are liberal to Leftist, and AMA leadership reflects that political bias—conservative doctors are just too darn busy with patient care and making enough to meet their overhead, to get involved with the politics of climate change and transgender medicine.

Yes, JAMA does do fine research reviews and science, but they also exercise editorial discretion and their selection of papers tend to promote a left wing world view. Think of the AMA as representing “political medicine.”

Bottom line, the AMA is often motivated by politics in what they approve of and promote.

Offline jpsb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,141
  • Gender: Male
American AMA medicine leaves a lot to be desired on many illnesses.  Long gone are the days they focus on cure, for their focus os keeping the patient a lifelong patient.

People like Dr. Fauci are killing people with their adherence to their bureaucratic methods. 

I know one doctor in New York using the Hydroxy and Zithromax as a therapy who has treated over 800 patients, without losing one patient.  But hey, Fauci needs his double blind secret probation studies before he supports anything.  What an Animal House!!!

I've read that he is not testing to see if his patients have Covid19, if so then who knows what he is treating and that makes the 800 cured claim worthless.

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,608
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
You read...there is not one source of news in the USA worth using after a good BM.

The AMA has largely been nothing but political.  If not for that, they would not have gained control with influence over Congress in 1914, pushing the homeopathic medicine docs out of business.  Prior to that, the homeopathic doctors were more highly regarded.


Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
You read...there is not one source of news in the USA worth using after a good BM.

The AMA has largely been nothing but political.  If not for that, they would not have gained control with influence over Congress in 1914, pushing the homeopathic medicine docs out of business.  Prior to that, the homeopathic doctors were more highly regarded.

They did the same to chiropractic in the early 20th century. As recently as the 1950’s they were trying to muscle chiropractors out of business. One New York chiropractor was even jailed for practicing medicine without a license. Of course he wasn’t! He was practicing chiropractic. Something medical doctors weren’t interested nor trained in doing, and had financial interest in suppressing.

Offline Neverdul

  • Moderator Gubernatorial and State Races
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,596
  • Gender: Female
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2020, 11:08:14 pm »
I've read that he is not testing to see if his patients have Covid19, if so then who knows what he is treating and that makes the 800 cured claim worthless.

I believe you are talking about Dr. Vladimir Zelenko in the orthodox Hasidic community of Kiryas Joel, NY.

As for the patients he’s claimed to have treated, by his own admission, very few have actually been tested.  He also claimed that 90% of the village would become infected based solely on 9 positive results from 14 tests conducted for the virus, the 90% claim which he later admitted was wrong but still insisted on a 60% rate of infection based on nothing but his hunch.

Without knowing how many of those he treated actually had COVID-19, without knowing the severity of their illness, i.e. if they were very mild cases that would be expected to recover without any treatment, or if asymptomatic, their ages and co-morbidities, if the drug regime was given to people who did not have the virus and given as a prophylactic, were any of them subsequently exposed in great enough degree that they would have a very high likelihood of getting sick?

There are also stories of a family practitioner in Denver CO who claims to have treated about a dozen patients over the last few weeks with this hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin combo who says it reversed their symptoms in a day or two. But again, these were patients treated out patient at a doctor’s office and had “symptoms” of COVID-19 but had not been tested. Again, did this dozen or so people actually have COVID-19 or did they have mild symptoms that would have resolved without the combo?

Really without concrete data and truthfully randomized double blind clinical trials and close observation and follow up, this is the very definition of anecdotal. The purpose of a double blind study is to remove the risk of bias. For example, if a doctor only gives the treatment to those he “thinks it will help” based on them not being as sick as others he doesn’t treat or any other human bias, that skews the results.

Hydroxychloroquine has known side effects including cardiac issues including sudden cardiac arrest.

https://www.newsweek.com/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-france-heart-cardiac-1496810

'No miraculous recovery': Some ICU doctors say hydroxychloroquine isn't helping sickest patients

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/no-miraculous-recovery-some-icu-doctors-say-hydroxychloroquine-isn-t-n1177556

I’m seeing people on social media and on TOS calling this “The Trump Pill” or the “Trump Cure” and advocating that everyone in the country be given this as a prophylactic and prior to or even in place of a vaccine, some even saying you should demand your doctor prescribe it.

But this is not a medication that should be doled out like candy. Note that one of contraindications is people with diabetes and heart conditions, and diabetes and heart conditions are two of the listed co-morbidities of COVID-19.

Hydroxychloroquine SULFATE (see side effects and interactions)

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-5482/hydroxychloroquine-oral/details
So This Is How Liberty Dies, With Thunderous Applause

Offline Neverdul

  • Moderator Gubernatorial and State Races
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,596
  • Gender: Female
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2020, 11:57:35 pm »
@jafo2010
@aligncare

Both homeopathy and chiropractic are (sadly) still around.

Some chiropractors only treat muscular skeletal issues and they may be helpful for some with lower back pain if combined with more traditional physical therapy technics such as core strengthening and stretching exercises, heat, massage, etc, but FWIW, after myself having gone to one, the cure was worse than the problem (the snapping of my neck did nothing nor did that thumping hammer thing that only left me bruised, sore and stiff) and when I got worse after going to this chiropractor who had me come 2 times a day -5 days a week for several weeks – right up until my insurance stopped paying, I went back to a board certified orthopedic for my back problem who referred me to a very excellent physical therapist who helped me immensely. The muscle relaxers also helped : )

But many chiropractors including the one I saw on a recommendation of a friend, also try (and by try I mean used strong arm marketing ployes) to get you to buy all sorts of sketchy dietary supplements and vitamins or diet plans and even “healing crystals” and “stones that aline your chakras” and ridiculously expensive aromatherapy candles and herbal teas from China (yes weird imported Chinese teas made from god knows what) accompanied by all sorts of claims of their ancient and mystical healing properties, or some even worse, claim they can cure by spinal manipulation all sort of illnesses. Hey you have Endometriosis? Liver problems? Gall Stones? Let me do a spinal manipulation that will cure that. Geeze and you think Gwyneth Paltrow’s GOOP is bad?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic

Homeopathy – now that’s an even bigger scam and quackery than chiropractic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Funny but true.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
So This Is How Liberty Dies, With Thunderous Applause

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,608
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2020, 12:20:16 am »
Up until 1914, the people of the USA preferred homeopathy over AMA's approach.  But then, the AMA gained political influence with our wonderful Congress, who forced homeopathy out of existence.  Homeopathy is coming back, and I know a number of AMA doctors that also practice homeopathy, so it is not all bullsh*t.

In reference to the chiropractor you went to, it sounds like maybe he was a quack.  You think there are no AMA physicians that fit into the quack zone?  Think again.  I have one friend who has been suffering for years, and no AMA doctor has diagnosed what exactly is wrong with her.  They are clueless, yet she is suffering every day.

I have gone to two chiropractors that fixed my problem within a week, that is one or two visits.  I have also been to chiropractors that were not worth a good BM.  If you get a good one, and it is not a mystery, you know with the first visit that they know their sh*t!!!!  So you need to use your head and commonsense to make your decisions regarding your wellbeing.

I suffered a number of times with AMA doctors, who could not find their posterior with both hands.  My father had lung cancer, and it took them six months plus to diagnose him, and that only resulted with exploratory surgery.  Total incompetents.  I would never trust my wellbeing to an AMA physician.  NEVER!!!

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,894
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2020, 04:05:29 am »
Up until 1914, the people of the USA preferred homeopathy over AMA's approach.  But then, the AMA gained political influence with our wonderful Congress, who forced homeopathy out of existence.  Homeopathy is coming back, and I know a number of AMA doctors that also practice homeopathy, so it is not all bullsh*t.

In reference to the chiropractor you went to, it sounds like maybe he was a quack.  You think there are no AMA physicians that fit into the quack zone?  Think again.  I have one friend who has been suffering for years, and no AMA doctor has diagnosed what exactly is wrong with her.  They are clueless, yet she is suffering every day.

I have gone to two chiropractors that fixed my problem within a week, that is one or two visits.  I have also been to chiropractors that were not worth a good BM.  If you get a good one, and it is not a mystery, you know with the first visit that they know their sh*t!!!!  So you need to use your head and commonsense to make your decisions regarding your wellbeing.

I suffered a number of times with AMA doctors, who could not find their posterior with both hands.  My father had lung cancer, and it took them six months plus to diagnose him, and that only resulted with exploratory surgery.  Total incompetents.  I would never trust my wellbeing to an AMA physician.  NEVER!!!
I, too, have had excellent results with Chiropractors.
Not so much with AMA doctors, who are batting about .500 with more serious issues I have had, and who have a tendency to blame the patient when they can't figure out what's wrong.
While the AMA doctors are still good for some things, and definitely have a host of diagnostic tools at their disposal my chiropractor does not, in the end, it is up to me to choose which course of medical treatment is most likely to produce success. 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,020
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2020, 10:29:58 am »
@jafo2010
@aligncare

Both homeopathy and chiropractic are (sadly) still around.

Some chiropractors only treat muscular skeletal issues and they may be helpful for some with lower back pain if combined with more traditional physical therapy technics such as core strengthening and stretching exercises, heat, massage, etc, but FWIW, after myself having gone to one, the cure was worse than the problem (the snapping of my neck did nothing nor did that thumping hammer thing that only left me bruised, sore and stiff) and when I got worse after going to this chiropractor who had me come 2 times a day -5 days a week for several weeks – right up until my insurance stopped paying, I went back to a board certified orthopedic for my back problem who referred me to a very excellent physical therapist who helped me immensely. The muscle relaxers also helped : )

But many chiropractors including the one I saw on a recommendation of a friend, also try (and by try I mean used strong arm marketing ployes) to get you to buy all sorts of sketchy dietary supplements and vitamins or diet plans and even “healing crystals” and “stones that aline your chakras” and ridiculously expensive aromatherapy candles and herbal teas from China (yes weird imported Chinese teas made from god knows what) accompanied by all sorts of claims of their ancient and mystical healing properties, or some even worse, claim they can cure by spinal manipulation all sort of illnesses. Hey you have Endometriosis? Liver problems? Gall Stones? Let me do a spinal manipulation that will cure that. Geeze and you think Gwyneth Paltrow’s GOOP is bad?

Homeopathy – now that’s an even bigger scam and quackery than chiropractic.


There ain't a single farmer, cowboy, construction worker, dock worker, or any other kind that actually work for a living that will believe you. In fact, they will laugh in your face.

I have worked for a living my whole life, in all those jobs, and more, And I don't know a single guy that does so, that does not have a chiro on speed-dial.

That little spring-hammer thingy has it's purposes - For instance, tightening ligaments on my right knee - a therapy that got me walking in a week when no medical doc had helped at all...

But by and large, yeah - Your doc was a quack. You need one willing to give you a real rip... Ask anyone who works hard and they will tell you who... One rip, maybe two, maybe three, and 9 chances out of 10, you are on your way. Somewhere between 35 and 50 bucks a whack.

Only one time was I subjected to lengthy treatment by a chiro, and that only when I would not let the surgeons at my lower back... That time was two weeks straight in chiro-instructed traction, PI excercise and adjustments three times week for three more weeks, then once a week for a month, and then once monthly for around 5 months thereafter... And the whole shootin match cheaper by an order of magnitude than medical doctors... with resulting complete recovery.


And the same can be said of alt med generally.  Seven years I was in that wheelchair, mostly in a 12x15 room, under the instruction of medical docs - SEVEN YEARS, never to walk again... Guess what? The sonsabiches were wrong. I admit my primary healing was an act of Yah, but ever since, and implicit to that in healing and recovery, hill-folk and native meds, food-as-med, essential oils, and homeopathy, have done far more for me than Western med by FAR.
 
Western med is great if you need things bolted on, or cut off, and it is great in emergency, but that's about it... But then, like most, I doubt you will believe me until you are desperate enough to look elsewhere... And then, my, but your eyes will open!

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,020
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2020, 10:34:24 am »
I, too, have had excellent results with Chiropractors.
Not so much with AMA doctors, who are batting about .500 with more serious issues I have had, and who have a tendency to blame the patient when they can't figure out what's wrong.
While the AMA doctors are still good for some things, and definitely have a host of diagnostic tools at their disposal my chiropractor does not, in the end, it is up to me to choose which course of medical treatment is most likely to produce success.

That's right.
Chiro, vet, medicine man, doctor, dentist... in that order.

Online massadvj

  • Editorial Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,349
  • Gender: Male
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2020, 11:06:49 am »
@jafo2010
@aligncare
but FWIW, after myself having gone to one, the cure was worse than the problem (the snapping of my neck did nothing nor did that thumping hammer thing that only left me bruised, sore and stiff) and when I got worse after going to this chiropractor who had me come 2 times a day -5 days a week for several weeks.

And medical doctors are so much better?  My wife died of ovarian cancer five years ago.  She lived with the disease for a year and a half after four operations, two rounds of chemo and one round of radiation.  The cost?  Over a million dollars to basically subject her to a life of hell.  There are some things worse than dying, and a lot of those things are being prescribed by practitioners of traditional medicine.

In the case of my wife, I admit the doctors kept her alive a little longer than she would have without their intervention.  But the amount of suffering she was subjected to resulted in a life that was not really worth living.  She would have been better off taking useless medicine prescribed by some holistic quack, dying sooner and retaining her dignity.  The quack would have charged her only a few hundred bucks.  The medical establishment took a million and did more harm than good.


 

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,702
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2020, 02:08:03 pm »
And medical doctors are so much better?  My wife died of ovarian cancer five years ago.  She lived with the disease for a year and a half after four operations, two rounds of chemo and one round of radiation.  The cost?  Over a million dollars to basically subject her to a life of hell.  There are some things worse than dying, and a lot of those things are being prescribed by practitioners of traditional medicine.

In the case of my wife, I admit the doctors kept her alive a little longer than she would have without their intervention.  But the amount of suffering she was subjected to resulted in a life that was not really worth living.  She would have been better off taking useless medicine prescribed by some holistic quack, dying sooner and retaining her dignity.  The quack would have charged her only a few hundred bucks.  The medical establishment took a million and did more harm than good.

And sadly, your wife is far from the only one that kind of thing happens to @massadvj

I have a very good friend who currently has a disease that requires him to undergo weekly blood transfusions (I have no idea about the cost) in order to stay alive.  I'm not sure I would consent to that knowing what it does to the people you love.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 02:11:42 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online massadvj

  • Editorial Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,349
  • Gender: Male
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2020, 04:42:31 pm »
And sadly, your wife is far from the only one that kind of thing happens to @massadvj

I have a very good friend who currently has a disease that requires him to undergo weekly blood transfusions (I have no idea about the cost) in order to stay alive.  I'm not sure I would consent to that knowing what it does to the people you love.

There are areas where the medical establishment has made great strides, and there may even be a cancer cure soon with immunotherapy.  But there are a lot of dubious treatments going on out there as well, and we are supposed to never question.  For example, I question very seriously whether the number of kids on psychotropic drugs is appropriate, knowing the addictive nature of these drugs, and their very deleterious long-term effects.

Offline Neverdul

  • Moderator Gubernatorial and State Races
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,596
  • Gender: Female
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2020, 05:15:47 pm »
And medical doctors are so much better?  My wife died of ovarian cancer five years ago.  She lived with the disease for a year and a half after four operations, two rounds of chemo and one round of radiation.  The cost?  Over a million dollars to basically subject her to a life of hell.  There are some things worse than dying, and a lot of those things are being prescribed by practitioners of traditional medicine.

In the case of my wife, I admit the doctors kept her alive a little longer than she would have without their intervention.  But the amount of suffering she was subjected to resulted in a life that was not really worth living.  She would have been better off taking useless medicine prescribed by some holistic quack, dying sooner and retaining her dignity.  The quack would have charged her only a few hundred bucks.  The medical establishment took a million and did more harm than good.

@massadvj

My sincere and deepest sympathies on the loss of your wife and what she and you endured.

Cancer is horrible. I’ve thought myself that if faced with a late stage cancer or one with a very small survival rate and with little hope of more than extending my life for a few months with chemo and radiation but at the cost of any quality of life, whether I’d opt for palliative care. I think I know the answer to that.

I understand your POV. However, I would also say that for every tragic outcome, there are more and more success stories. 

My SIL for example was diagnosed with stage 3 breast cancer and underwent a radical double mastectomy and removal of lymph nodes and underwent both radiation and chemotherapy. It was no doubt hell for her and for my brother and their 3 children.

That was 30 years ago and she remains cancer free, now a grandmother of 10 and a great grandmother of 3. If she’d gone to a homeopath or opted for holistic medicine instead, she would be dead.

I also knew a young mother whose toddler was diagnosed with acute leukemia. I remember seeing the poor child, bald and pale and underweight from the chemo as a result of the nausea, in and out of the hospital. I lost touch with her over the years but ran into her a few years ago. I asked about her daughter, sort of hesitantly, fearing the worst. But she told me her daughter had just gotten her Ph.D. in bio-chemistry, working in a medical research lab at Johns Hopkins, the very same hospital where she had been treated and was engaged to be married. 
So This Is How Liberty Dies, With Thunderous Applause

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,702
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2020, 05:22:08 pm »
There are areas where the medical establishment has made great strides, and there may even be a cancer cure soon with immunotherapy.  But there are a lot of dubious treatments going on out there as well, and we are supposed to never question.  For example, I question very seriously whether the number of kids on psychotropic drugs is appropriate, knowing the addictive nature of these drugs, and their very deleterious long-term effects.

And I agree with you about that 100% as well!  I'm glad I grew up before they started drugging kids for convenience.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Neverdul

  • Moderator Gubernatorial and State Races
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,596
  • Gender: Female
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2020, 05:23:00 pm »
Homeopathy is based on the belief that "like cures like" – that a substance that causes certain symptoms can also help to remove those same symptoms when manifested by a disease.

A second central principle is based around a process of dilution and shaking called succussion.

Practitioners believe that the more a substance is diluted in this way, the greater its power to treat symptoms.

Many homeopathic remedies consist of substances (some toxic in the pure form) that have been diluted many times in water until there's none, or almost none, of the original substance left. Homeopaths believe that between the dilution iterations, the practice of hitting and/or violently shaking the product and claim that it makes the diluent “remember” the original substance after its removal and that the repeated dilutions -  60x to 100x. But that renders them biochemically inert, and therefore have no effect on any known disease. So yes, they believe that the tincture which is usually either distilled water, ethanol or sugar, even though diluted to the point of having none or nearly none of the original substance somehow retains a “memory” of the original substance. While The North may remember, distilled water simply doesn’t.

Created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, his theory of disease was centered around principles he termed Miasms (1), and is inconsistent with subsequent identification of viruses and bacteria as causes of many diseases and with chemistry and physics.

Homeopathy is pseudoscientific and quackery. While these homeopathic remedies are typically not in themselves harmful because they contain little more than water or sugar in most cases, they are harmful when used in place of or in delaying actual medical treatment. 

I recall the Amazing Randi taking a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills on stage at the beginning of a TED talk – the label on the bottle even warned of overdose and to call the Poison Control Center in case of an overdose.  What happened? Nothing. Because the homeopathic sleeping pills were nothing more than a placebo.

(1) Here’s a homeopath trying to explain Hahnemann’s theory of miasms (among other things I can’t even begin to explain). Oh and he’s also a chiropractor too. Holy crap on a cracker - what a steaming pile of unmitigated pseudoscience, 200-year-old and outdated understanding disease mixed in with a huge steaming pile of “new age” woo.

http://www.sanfranciscohomeopathy.com/san-francisco-homeopathy-knowledge/the-homeopathic-promise/miasms

Does Homeopathy Work?


www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq29f14X1t0
So This Is How Liberty Dies, With Thunderous Applause

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,894
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2020, 07:41:57 pm »
And I agree with you about that 100% as well!  I'm glad I grew up before they started drugging kids for convenience.
Likely we'd both have been zombies at an early age.... :tongue2:

And sometimes I think the biggest reason is for the convenience of those who are supposed to be supervising them.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,702
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2020, 07:49:12 pm »
Likely we'd both have been zombies at an early age.... :tongue2:

And sometimes I think the biggest reason is for the convenience of those who are supposed to be supervising them.

Very likely! Both points!   :beer:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,020
Re: Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2020, 11:34:31 pm »
"Doctors rethinking coronavirus: Are we using ventilators the wrong way?"

Well, I ain't no doctor, but I am pretty sure that stuff goes on the head end.
Hope that helps.