Author Topic: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2  (Read 179121 times)

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Online corbe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1925 on: May 03, 2020, 08:07:22 pm »
What's the point of your gratuitous slam at supporters of the President @corbe

   You paint with a broad brush @Right_in_Virginia I did not 'slam' Trump Supporters, I spoke directly to Trump Lovers there is A Difference.  I happen to be a supporter more times than not, lately, but it's highly unlikely I'll ever Love him like some of you do here.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1926 on: May 03, 2020, 08:34:10 pm »
   You paint with a broad brush @Right_in_Virginia I did not 'slam' Trump Supporters, I spoke directly to Trump Lovers there is A Difference.  I happen to be a supporter more times than not, lately, but it's highly unlikely I'll ever Love him like some of you do here.
   If the shoe fits, wear it, with pride and distintion.     ****sheep****

Ping me when you're ready to make some sense.  Thanks @corbe

Online corbe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1927 on: May 03, 2020, 08:35:38 pm »
    OK
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1928 on: May 03, 2020, 08:49:00 pm »
Following Jesus again.
The one who cleans the pool, or the one who could walk on it?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1929 on: May 03, 2020, 08:50:47 pm »
Regarding the "probable" deaths vs. the proven deaths by COVID....... since the CDC changed the numbers, Ohio has posted both so you can see what the difference is.

As of today, here are our death numbers....

957- Confirmed Deaths    81- CDC Expanded Death Definition (Probable)    1,038 -Total Deaths

You can make up your own mind as to whether or not the difference is significant.

I find it helpful to know both numbers, and tend to go only by the confirmed number in both cases and deaths.

I don't know if Connecticut provides both in their own state information.
It's a roughly 10% bump, same in the breakdown in our state where 2 are listed of having been positive for COVISD-19 but have other official causes of death listed.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Fishrrman

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1930 on: May 03, 2020, 10:34:13 pm »
I'm in Fairfield county CT.

From the article about why the virus has hit CT so hard:
"McGee noted that Connecticut’s black and Latino populations, largely concentrated in densely populated areas, have been disproportionately susceptible to COVID-19, likely due to underlying health disparities."

What they DON'T mention is that -- at least in my observation -- the Hispanics (there are many MANY illegals here) aren't particularly concerned about social separation or taking precautions to prevent the spread of the virus. They're out there partying right now.

So... it's not necessarily "health disparities" ... it's a disparity in behavior.

I sense this plays a role in the number of infections in blacks, as well.

I reckon it's going to be at least July before we see the "R0" rate for new infections here drop to the point where one no longer needs to fear picking up the infection while out and about amongst groups of people. I'll certainly limit my trips out and will keep using the mask and gloves until then...

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1931 on: May 03, 2020, 10:39:46 pm »
I'm in Fairfield county CT.

From the article about why the virus has hit CT so hard:
"McGee noted that Connecticut’s black and Latino populations, largely concentrated in densely populated areas, have been disproportionately susceptible to COVID-19, likely due to underlying health disparities."

What they DON'T mention is that -- at least in my observation -- the Hispanics (there are many MANY illegals here) aren't particularly concerned about social separation or taking precautions to prevent the spread of the virus. They're out there partying right now.

So... it's not necessarily "health disparities" ... it's a disparity in behavior.

I sense this plays a role in the number of infections in blacks, as well.

I reckon it's going to be at least July before we see the "R0" rate for new infections here drop to the point where one no longer needs to fear picking up the infection while out and about amongst groups of people. I'll certainly limit my trips out and will keep using the mask and gloves until then...
Yep. But Liberals/Leftists never blame individuals for their own behaviour, especially 'protected' ones.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1932 on: May 04, 2020, 12:01:39 am »
What's the average life span of a viral outbreak? I tried to find an answer online, and thought maybe someone here knows.

 Won't this virus start to die out on its own long before a vaccine is devised? And what's the use of a vaccine for Covid-19 in 18 months when we'll be dealing with China's most recent virus by then (Covid-21 or 22)?

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1933 on: May 04, 2020, 12:46:13 am »
I'm not quite sure why or who compelled him to make this statement.   IF he indeed came up with the idea to make this statement on his own, does he perhaps think because he was faced with 9-11 his reassurance is needed??  I don't know. 

Yes, it sure seems like his intent was to undermine our President, and if that was his intent; shame on him!

Dubya undermined the President with a message of unity during a national crisis?  You people are not being challenged enough.  Your cognative skills have atrophied into a cesspool of hate.  Dubya's heart compelled him to make the statement.  I pity anyone who can't see it.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1934 on: May 04, 2020, 12:48:00 am »
What's the average life span of a viral outbreak? I tried to find an answer online, and thought maybe someone here knows.

 Won't this virus start to die out on its own long before a vaccine is devised? And what's the use of a vaccine for Covid-19 in 18 months when we'll be dealing with China's most recent virus by then (Covid-21 or 22)?
Not entirely sure. This is a slower virus in general.

I know in New York, virus hospitalizations statewide have already fallen back down to where they were at the start of the lockdowns. That was 40 days ago or so.

But the fear that the so-called "experts" are pushing is based on the concept of the second wave, as if the virus will spontaneously reappear. That's not how viruses work. Even an endemic virus such as the flu is usually a different strain each year. The only known virus related to this one was SARS—whose much briefer second wave came two years after the first, which in turn had disappeared so thoroughly that they never finished work on the vaccine for it.

Of course, the excuse they are using for this, the 1918 flu, was a confluence of circumstances involving World War I. I could probably write a whole essay on this topic.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1935 on: May 04, 2020, 01:44:11 am »
And, @jmyrlefuller --as I have so frequently been reminded by a couple of folks here--this isn't the flu. Which is right, of course, there are some 144 possible combinations of Hemagglutinin and Neuraminidase (The 'H' and 'N') in the Flu, some of which don't affect us, some of which are deadly. (Then there are subclades from there). The annual shots are based on an H and an N, and spin the wheel to see if either is in this year's strain...(usually from China).

We don't know if there will be a second wave of SARS-CoV-2, but the early onset treatments, H/A/Z (Hydroxychloroquine/Azithromycin/Zinc Sulfate) or Remdesivir seem to be the best bet at keeping the SARS-CoV-2 at bay.
Most tests of Hydroxychloroquine and even hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin that have been heavily reported in the MSM (notably the VA study), left out the Zinc, which is essential to stopping viral replication, and the zinc ionophore effect of the hydroxychloroquine is the reason to use the hydroxychloroquine in the first place: to get the zinc into the Type 1 pneumocytes, the lung cells the virus targets, the ones which do the oxygen/CO2 exchange with the blood. Kill enough of those and a few nasty things happen, kill too many and the patient likely won't make it.
As a contraindication, Hydroxychloroquine lengthens the Q-T interval on an ecg, the time between contraction and full relaxation for  the next contraction in the ventricles. Too long, and there is a high probability of ventricular fibrillation, and if not treated promptly, that can lead to full cardiac arrest and death. Folks with some types of heart problems might not want to use it because of that risk.
 
These regimens are not as effective in advanced presentations because the virus has already replicated to the point where the patient is more critical, suffering severe pulmonary problems, and HAPE protocols (For High Altitude Pulmonary Edema) in concert with one of the above (to stop the virus from doing even more damage) may be more effective in advanced cases.
 
There may be other zinc ionophores and sources, like Quercentin and Zinc Gluconate, commonly available supplements that may provide some resistance to the virus as well, although no testing of off the shelf supplements has been made. The trend seems to be toward more complex and expensive solutions. Not being a doctor nor a biochemist, I can't and won't make any medical claims for those, but I take them.

Strategies include: Stopping the virus from reproducing (thus limiting (lung) cell damage and cell death), and dealing with any lung damage it has been able to effect. If it is stopped early, the latter is not such a problem.

If=>
We have an effective early treatment regimen (or better yet, more than one)
We know what symptoms to watch for
We have the means to get fairly rapid test results

Then the disease can be dealt with in otherwise healthy people on a case by case basis as it happens.
If necessary, out breaks can be contained, much as any other outbreak of infectious diseases.

and the rest of the country can go back to work and life, wearing whatever PPE they find appropriate.

Once again, I'm not a doctor, nor a pharmacologist, nor do I claim any knowledge other than what I have acquired through research on the web of peer reviewed articles and other sources. I would caution anyone to do their due diligence if they think they are at risk of catching this bug, and even if they aren't. (you never know)

This thing could bounce around through hotspots globally, and even within the country, for a while.

We learned to live with the threat of absolute nuclear annihilation, I think we can live around the bug, too.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 02:08:24 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1936 on: May 04, 2020, 01:56:42 am »
Thanks, jmyrle and Joe for your responses. So nice to stick to the subject at hand!

Online libertybele

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1937 on: May 04, 2020, 01:57:47 am »
Dubya undermined the President with a message of unity during a national crisis?  You people are not being challenged enough.  Your cognative skills have atrophied into a cesspool of hate.  Dubya's heart compelled him to make the statement.  I pity anyone who can't see it.

Wow ... thanks so much for clearing everything up for me ...  *****rollingeyes*****   You can sing praise about 'W' all you want ... his last 4 years = a disaster.  He is no longer the President ... he should be assisting Trump in order to help this country, not undermine him -- anyone that can't see that has blinders on.

As for my 'cognitive' skills ... well, at least I can spell the word correctly.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1938 on: May 04, 2020, 02:12:18 am »
Thanks, jmyrle and Joe for your responses. So nice to stick to the subject at hand!
Thanks!

We will return to the regularly scheduled spitting contest in (oh, heck we're already there!) :shrug:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline musiclady

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1939 on: May 04, 2020, 02:50:53 am »
I'm in Fairfield county CT.

From the article about why the virus has hit CT so hard:
"McGee noted that Connecticut’s black and Latino populations, largely concentrated in densely populated areas, have been disproportionately susceptible to COVID-19, likely due to underlying health disparities."

What they DON'T mention is that -- at least in my observation -- the Hispanics (there are many MANY illegals here) aren't particularly concerned about social separation or taking precautions to prevent the spread of the virus. They're out there partying right now.

So... it's not necessarily "health disparities" ... it's a disparity in behavior.

I sense this plays a role in the number of infections in blacks, as well.

I reckon it's going to be at least July before we see the "R0" rate for new infections here drop to the point where one no longer needs to fear picking up the infection while out and about amongst groups of people. I'll certainly limit my trips out and will keep using the mask and gloves until then...

Stay safe @Fishrrman !
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1940 on: May 04, 2020, 02:57:06 am »
Not entirely sure. This is a slower virus in general.

I don't know if that is right, considering the now burgeoning discovery of in-the-wild anti-bodies... Been and gone already... That means what, at least a ten day progression before the fact, and maybe a month or more. Shoot, they're thinkin this thing shot though the west coast some time in December, and they are in a second phase now.

 

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1941 on: May 04, 2020, 05:45:17 am »
Wow ... thanks so much for clearing everything up for me ...

My pleasure.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1942 on: May 04, 2020, 06:46:42 pm »
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/04/us/coronavirus-updates.html#link-7b42d0f5
The Trump administration projects about 3,000 daily deaths by early June.

Quote
As President Trump presses for states to reopen their economies, his administration is privately projecting a steady rise in the number of cases and deaths from the coronavirus over the next several weeks, reaching about 3,000 daily deaths on June 1, according to an internal document obtained by The New York Times, nearly double from the current level of about 1,750.

The projections, based on government modeling pulled together in chart form by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, forecast about 200,000 new cases each day by the end of the month, up from about 25,000 cases now.

The numbers underscore a sobering reality: While the United States has been hunkered down for the past seven weeks, not much has changed. And the reopening to the economy will make matters worse.
Quote
“While mitigation didn’t fail, I think it’s fair to say that it didn’t work as well as we expected,” Scott Gottlieb, Mr. Trump’s former commissioner of food and drugs, said Sunday on the CBS program Face the Nation. “We expected that we would start seeing more significant declines in new cases and deaths around the nation at this point. And we’re just not seeing that.”

more at link

Online libertybele

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1943 on: May 04, 2020, 07:04:59 pm »
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/04/us/coronavirus-updates.html#link-7b42d0f5
The Trump administration projects about 3,000 daily deaths by early June.

more at link

The White House responded that the new projections had not been vetted.

“This is not a White House document nor has it been presented to the Coronavirus Task Force or gone through interagency vetting,” said Judd Deere, a White House spokesman. “This data is not reflective of any of the modeling done by the task force or data that the task force has analyzed.”

“The president’s phased guidelines to open up America again are a scientific driven approach that the top health and infectious disease experts in the federal government agreed with,” he said.

Mr. Gottlieb said Americans “may be facing the prospect that 20,000, 30,000 new cases a day diagnosed becomes the new normal.”
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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1944 on: May 04, 2020, 08:57:03 pm »
Quote
“While mitigation didn’t fail, I think it’s fair to say that it didn’t work as well as we expected,” Scott Gottlieb, Mr. Trump’s former commissioner of food and drugs, said Sunday on the CBS program Face the Nation. “We expected that we would start seeing more significant declines in new cases and deaths around the nation at this point. And we’re just not seeing that.”
In other words, it didn't work. All this trouble, and the only place that had a major drop was New York City.

I said it earlier and I'll repeat it. There is no rationale to keep this charade going for months. If it works, infections go down, the virus dies out and we are free. If it doesn't work, then there's no point making people suffer through a failed policy.

"But people will die," the Blarin' Karens scream. Well, as was written in Fight Club, on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. If I have an elderly relative, let's say over 80... if she dies of COVID because I visit her and made her happy, she dies a happy woman. If I cannot visit her, and she dies of a broken heart, she dies miserable and alone. Which way would I rather have her die? Why should I be held guilty for an airborne virus? I mean, if I walked in there with a fever and coughing up a lung, that might be one thing, but at some point it becomes insulting.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 08:59:13 pm by jmyrlefuller »
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Online libertybele

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1945 on: May 04, 2020, 09:06:50 pm »
In other words, it didn't work. All this trouble, and the only place that had a major drop was New York City.

I said it earlier and I'll repeat it. There is no rationale to keep this charade going for months. If it works, infections go down, the virus dies out and we are free. If it doesn't work, then there's no point making people suffer through a failed policy.

"But people will die," the Blarin' Karens scream. Well, as was written in Fight Club, on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. If I have an elderly relative, let's say over 80... if she dies of COVID because I visit her and made her happy, she dies a happy woman. If I cannot visit her, and she dies of a broken heart, she dies miserable and alone. Which way would I rather have her die? Why should I be held guilty for an airborne virus? I mean, if I walked in there with a fever and coughing up a lung, that might be one thing, but at some point it becomes insulting.

You are absolutely correct.  'They' are trying to supposedly save the lives of the most vulnerable and in doing so they are taking away their access to their families and vice-versa.  Grams and Gramps dying of a broken heart I think is much more serious than this virus.
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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1946 on: May 04, 2020, 09:16:57 pm »
You are absolutely correct.  'They' are trying to supposedly save the lives of the most vulnerable and in doing so they are taking away their access to their families and vice-versa.  Grams and Gramps dying of a broken heart I think is much more serious than this virus.

I think people need to keep in mind that it was the hospitals and nursing homes that restricted visitation before any form of government mandated it.

It is the nature of an highly infectious disease that health care workers and hospitals want to protect others from getting it.

When the restrictions are removed by governments, the hospitals will continue to protect their patients and their patients' families......... so people with COVID will likely continue to die alone.

I think the frustration that many are feeling about restrictions should be understood for what it is.   Frustration with the disease itself.
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I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1947 on: May 04, 2020, 09:19:11 pm »
You are absolutely correct.  'They' are trying to supposedly save the lives of the most vulnerable and in doing so they are taking away their access to their families and vice-versa.  Grams and Gramps dying of a broken heart I think is much more serious than this virus.

I think it's a test.  Some say we failed because we didn't have protest marches on day 1, but I say we passed because it's becoming more obvious by the day we won't tolerate it for long.
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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1948 on: May 04, 2020, 09:39:16 pm »
"But people will die," the Blarin' Karens scream. Well, as was written in Fight Club, on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

I'm convinced.  No more seat-belts or exercise for me /sarc

Seriously @jmyrlefuller I think that is a flawed argument.  The President's 15 day, and 30 day pause were so our healthcare system could catch up with the virus.  It bought time to build beds, and buy PPE and ventilators.  It did work.  NY cases have dropped significantly.  Now infections and deaths are rising in other area, and the supplies we have replenished can be utilized in those areas to reduce deaths.

I fear the states opening back up before it was safe, like GA, will once again have to shut down to protect their population before they are forced to.  The well run states don't want to be burdened by the irresponsible states, and eventually the states themselves are going to have to ban travel to states with renewed epidemics.

We'll likely have a better idea how well reducing restrictions worked in a few weeks.

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1949 on: May 04, 2020, 09:39:42 pm »
I think it's a test.  Some say we failed because we didn't have protest marches on day 1, but I say we passed because it's becoming more obvious by the day we won't tolerate it for long.

Exactly, so what's the point in staying healthy and living if it also means living in fear of dying and not being able to see your loved ones?

Meanwhile ... the projected models are showing an increase in deaths.  Obviously, the more people that are exposed to this virus, there will be deaths.  That's a given.  IMHO whether or not you die from a heart attack, cancer, or some other ailment, you will be counted as a COVID-19 victim right now. There are cases of the elderly who have survived this.  Personally, I would rather hug my kids and my grandkids and die with a humongous smile on my face then live and not be able to hug them.

Coronavirus model projects 134,000 deaths in US, nearly double its last estimate

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/health/us-coronavirus-monday/index.html
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