Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2

[aligncare]

Zicam is not only a “homeopathic medicine” which is to say, not a medicine at all, at best a placebo, it can also give you an outcome worse than a common cold.

https://www.rn.com/headlines-in-health/zicam-alert/

The Top Five Cold Remedies That Do Not Work

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2014/11/17/the-top-five-cold-remedies-that-do-not-work/#2a53b0ae4701

1. Zicam contains zinc as its active ingredient. There has been some evidence to suggest that taking zinc right at the onset of a cold might shorten its duration a little bit, from 7 days to 6. But as Dr. Terence Davidson from UC San Diego explained, if you look at the more rigorous studies, the effect vanishes. Zinc turns out to have some worrisome side effects, too. Zicam's nasal spray and gel versions were linked to a serious loss of the sense of smell (anosmia), which led the FDA to issue a warning letter in 2009. Zicam responded by withdrawing the product for a time, but their website now says "A clinical link between the Zicam® products and anosmia was not established." Strictly speaking, this is correct, but there have been published reports suggesting a link, such as this one from 2009.*

Every medication comes with an encyclopedia of exceptions, warnings and concerns. Individual reactions can always vary. Zinc supplements are no different. But, specific outcome measures can be established despite natural variances.

[Hoodat]

Virol Journal. 2005 Aug 22;2:69. doi: 10.1186/1743-422X-2-69.

Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread
Martin J Vincent  1 , Eric Bergeron, Suzanne Benjannet, Bobbie R Erickson, Pierre E Rollin, Thomas G Ksiazek, Nabil G Seidah, Stuart T Nichol

Affiliations Expand
PMID: 16115318 PMCID: PMC1232869 DOI: 10.1186/1743-422X-2-69
 
Abstract
Background: Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) is caused by a newly discovered coronavirus (SARS-CoV). No effective prophylactic or post-exposure therapy is currently available.
Results: We report, however, that chloroquine has strong antiviral effects on SARS-CoV infection of primate cells. These inhibitory effects are observed when the cells are treated with the drug either before or after exposure to the virus, suggesting both prophylactic and therapeutic advantage. In addition to the well-known functions of chloroquine such as elevations of endosomal pH, the drug appears to interfere with terminal glycosylation of the cellular receptor, angiotensin-converting enzyme 2. This may negatively influence the virus-receptor binding and abrogate the infection, with further ramifications by the elevation of vesicular pH, resulting in the inhibition of infection and spread of SARS CoV at clinically admissible concentrations.
 
Conclusion:
Chloroquine is effective in preventing the spread of SARS CoV in cell culture. Favorable inhibition of virus spread was observed when the cells were either treated with chloroquine prior to or after SARS CoV infection. In addition, the indirect immunofluorescence assay described herein represents a simple and rapid method for screening SARS-CoV antiviral compounds.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16115318/

[mountaineer]

My M.D. friend - the same one who asserts the virus has run its course - was recommending Zicam back in March. 

[jmyrlefuller]

Do a little research.  Look at a product called Zicam, which uses zinc to help shorten the common cold.  Zinc works....

You mean Zicam, the homeopathic remedy? Homeopathy, the long-discredited science that operates on the premise that if you're ailing, take something that causes the same ailment and make it worse?

[Bigun]

[Cyber Liberty]

You mean Zicam, the homeopathic remedy? Homeopathy, the long-discredited science that operates on the premise that if you're ailing, take something that causes the same ailment and make it worse?

Are you suggesting that if a treatment is "Homeopathic," it's guaranteed to be ineffective?  That doesn't make any sense.

[bigheadfred]

Virol Journal. 2005 Aug 22;2:69. doi: 10.1186/1743-422X-2-69.

Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread
Martin J Vincent  1 , Eric Bergeron, Suzanne Benjannet, Bobbie R Erickson, Pierre E Rollin, Thomas G Ksiazek, Nabil G Seidah, Stuart T Nichol

Affiliations Expand
PMID: 16115318 PMCID: PMC1232869 DOI: 10.1186/1743-422X-2-69
 
Abstract
Background: Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) is caused by a newly discovered coronavirus (SARS-CoV). No effective prophylactic or post-exposure therapy is currently available.
Results: We report, however, that chloroquine has strong antiviral effects on SARS-CoV infection of primate cells. These inhibitory effects are observed when the cells are treated with the drug either before or after exposure to the virus, suggesting both prophylactic and therapeutic advantage. In addition to the well-known functions of chloroquine such as elevations of endosomal pH, the drug appears to interfere with terminal glycosylation of the cellular receptor, angiotensin-converting enzyme 2. This may negatively influence the virus-receptor binding and abrogate the infection, with further ramifications by the elevation of vesicular pH, resulting in the inhibition of infection and spread of SARS CoV at clinically admissible concentrations.
 
Conclusion:
Chloroquine is effective in preventing the spread of SARS CoV in cell culture. Favorable inhibition of virus spread was observed when the cells were either treated with chloroquine prior to or after SARS CoV infection. In addition, the indirect immunofluorescence assay described herein represents a simple and rapid method for screening SARS-CoV antiviral compounds.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16115318/

Interesting. They also developed a vaccine. But shelved it when the spread stopped. They keep talking about potential vaccines for this current variation. I think, strictly my opinion, meaning I have no evidence, they already have a vaccine for covid 2.

[jmyrlefuller]

Are you suggesting that if a treatment is "Homeopathic," it's guaranteed to be ineffective?  That doesn't make any sense.

Yes, because homeopathy by its very nature makes whatever you're ailing with even worse by compounding your existing disease with something that causes even more of it.

Fortunately, most modern homeopathic "remedies" are so heavily diluted they are effectively placebos.

Homeopathy or homoeopathy is a pseudoscientific system of alternative medicine. It was created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann. Its practitioners, called homeopaths, believe that a substance that causes symptoms of a disease in healthy people would cure similar symptoms in sick people; this doctrine is called similia similibus curentur, or "like cures like".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

[DB]

Are you suggesting that if a treatment is "Homeopathic," it's guaranteed to be ineffective?  That doesn't make any sense.

"Homeopathy or homoeopathy is a pseudoscientific system of alternative medicine. It was created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann. Its practitioners, called homeopaths, believe that a substance that causes symptoms of a disease in healthy people would cure similar symptoms in sick people; this doctrine is called similia similibus curentur, or "like cures like". Homeopathic preparations are termed remedies and are made using homeopathic dilution. In this process, a chosen substance is repeatedly and thoroughly diluted. The final product is chemically indistinguishable from the diluent, which is usually either distilled water, ethanol or sugar; often, not even a single molecule of the original substance can be expected to remain in the product. Between the dilution iterations homeopaths practice hitting and/or violently shaking the product, and claim that it makes the diluent remember the original substance after its removal. Practitioners claim that such preparations, upon oral intake, can treat or cure disease."

https://www.bing.com/search?q=homeopathy+definition&qs=HS&sc=8-0&cvid=1F06F1A1148B4DC8874109C6CEE9BADF&FORM=CHRDEF&sp=1

[Cyber Liberty]

Just trying to understand how a substance being declared "Homeopathic" renders it useless in fighting a virus.  Zinc doesn't know it's a placebo.

[DB]

Just trying to understand how a substance being declared "Homeopathic" renders it useless in fighting a virus.  Zinc doesn't know it's a placebo.

Apparently something label homeopathic has virtually none of the substance it claims to be the active ingredient. So if you buy homeopathic zinc you get no actual zinc...

[Idiot]

You mean Zicam, the homeopathic remedy? Homeopathy, the long-discredited science that operates on the premise that if you're ailing, take something that causes the same ailment and make it worse?

Heaven forbid you get COVID19, but if you do will you just take nothing? 

[Fishrrman]

Newly-reported infections seem to have taken a big uptick here in CT in the past few days. They had previously been running low for several weeks.

Don't know what's going on.

Could be reporting error.
Just don't know yet.

[DB]

Newly-reported infections seem to have taken a big uptick here in CT in the past few days. They had previously been running low for several weeks.

Don't know what's going on.

Could be reporting error.
Just don't know yet.

That's good as long as people aren't dying from it.

[Smokin Joe]

ZINC IS WORTHLESS, that's why no study mentions it. STOP IT.

No study? Actually, many studies mention zinc in viral replication inhibition. But, quite possibly in an effort to reduce the efficacy of the regimen, zinc has been conspicuously absent from studies which show hydroxychloroquine to be less than effective, studies which also confined the study cohort to people who were in very advanced stages of the disease, often already in ICU and on ventilators and whose prognosis was grim, regardless.

For instance: 
Zn(2+) inhibits coronavirus and arterivirus RNA polymerase activity in vitro and zinc ionophores block the replication of these viruses in cell culture (SARS-CoV is specifically mentioned).

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21079686/


If you do a search of Zinc as an antiviral you will find a lot of journal mentions of Zinc as an antiviral, even with this Coronavirus. It is useless without an ionophore, which may include Hydroxychloroquine, Quercentin, or even flavonoids. It turns out apples are high in Quercentin, so maybe there is something to the old saw about "an apple a day..."

In addition to acting as a Zinc ionophore, hydroxychloroquine slightly modifies the ACE 2 receptor and reduces the ability of the virus to enter the cell by that mechanism and subtle pH (more basic--less acidic) changes in the cell. These mechanisms work in concert to slow the viral replication to the degree that the immune system can defeat the virus before the virus defeats the patient.

Chloroquine is more dangerous to use than hydroxychloroquine, and that is the reason hydroxychloroquine is used instead. Hydroxychloroquine has a decades long history of being prescribed as an antimalarial and in instances of people with Lupus and Rheumatoid Arthritis, both of which are immune system disorders, in which the immune system is attacking the body itself. I personally know people who have taken hydroxychloroquine for years without ill effect.

For a really nice explanation of the regimen (that You Tube missed), try here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9YFXo84lCk

Keep in mind that this is a Global pandemic, and not all countries are tied up in the same politics as the US is in this election cycle. The drug, and the disease have been politicized to the degree that likely tens of thousands have unnecessarily died because of politics, starting with nursing home and extended care patients in New York and continuing because of the tremendous misinformation being spread about possible pharmacologies to fight the disease. What should have been simply about science has been polluted with political enmities and the patients suffer as a result.

[Smokin Joe]

Just trying to understand how a substance being declared "Homeopathic" renders it useless in fighting a virus.  Zinc doesn't know it's a placebo.

Zicam isn't homeopathic just because it is sold over the counter.

To fit the description of a homeopathic remedy it would have to claim to contain some dilution of the virus that caused your cold. (Not only difficult, but considering the common cold is caused by a number of Coronaviruses and Rhinoviruses, it'd be really hard to start with the right mix of viruses to dilute to make sure your particular cold virus was in there , or not in there, whichever you prefer.)  It doesn't claim that at all.

So, calling an OTC remedy a homeopathic when even it doesn't claim to be is a misapplication of the term "homeopathic", perhaps done to discredit the product. If it did not work for at least some people, it would not be on the market long.

Keep in mind, that vaccines commonly contain the bug you are vaccinating against, in some dilute and severely damaged form so it won't just be a lethal injection, so the body can build antibodies against the disease you are being vaccinated against--the whole purpose of the vaccine. Does that make vaccines homeopathic, too?

.

[DB]

Zicam isn't homeopathic just because it is sold over the counter.

To fit the description of a homeopathic remedy it would have to claim to contain some dilution of the virus that caused your cold. (Not only difficult, but considering the common cold is caused by a number of Coronaviruses and Rhinoviruses, it'd be really hard to start with the right mix of viruses to dilute to make sure your particular cold virus was in there , or not in there, whichever you prefer.)  It doesn't claim that at all.

So, calling an OTC remedy a homeopathic when even it doesn't claim to be is a misapplication of the term "homeopathic", perhaps done to discredit the product. If it did not work for at least some people, it would not be on the market long.

Keep in mind, that vaccines commonly contain the bug you are vaccinating against, in some dilute and severely damaged form so it won't just be a lethal injection, so the body can build antibodies against the disease you are being vaccinated against--the whole purpose of the vaccine. Does that make vaccines homeopathic, too?

.

According to the definition of "homeopathy" above in the Bing search the homeopathic agent only has to cause the symptoms of whatever the illness is. Based on that it sounds like it doesn't have to be the actual agent that made someone sick in the first place. It only has to produce similar symptoms. And then the dilution is to the point it may not even contain a single molecule of the agent that was started with. That the dilution has a "memory of it" and that is what cures you...

So in other words it is a belief system and nothing to do with science...

[Smokin Joe]

According to the definition of "homeopathy" above in the Bing search the homeopathic agent only has to cause the symptoms of whatever the illness is. Based on that it sounds like it doesn't have to be the actual agent that made someone sick in the first place. It only has to produce similar symptoms. And then the dilution is to the point it may not even contain a single molecule of the agent that was started with. That the dilution has a "memory of it" and that is what cures you...

So in other words it is a belief system and nothing to do with science...

In the meantime, zinc has been shown to be beneficial, even as a cold remedy. Keep in mind, that all people vary, viruses vary, and nothing is 100%.

https://www.uchealth.org/today/zinc-could-help-diminish-extent-of-covid-19/

Zn2+ Inhibits Coronavirus and Arterivirus RNA Polymerase Activity In Vitro and Zinc Ionophores Block the Replication of These Viruses in Cell Culture https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176

[Cyber Liberty]

Zicam isn't homeopathic just because it is sold over the counter.

To fit the description of a homeopathic remedy it would have to claim to contain some dilution of the virus that caused your cold. (Not only difficult, but considering the common cold is caused by a number of Coronaviruses and Rhinoviruses, it'd be really hard to start with the right mix of viruses to dilute to make sure your particular cold virus was in there , or not in there, whichever you prefer.)  It doesn't claim that at all.

So, calling an OTC remedy a homeopathic when even it doesn't claim to be is a misapplication of the term "homeopathic", perhaps done to discredit the product. If it did not work for at least some people, it would not be on the market long.

Keep in mind, that vaccines commonly contain the bug you are vaccinating against, in some dilute and severely damaged form so it won't just be a lethal injection, so the body can build antibodies against the disease you are being vaccinated against--the whole purpose of the vaccine. Does that make vaccines homeopathic, too?

.

@Smokin Joe  I appreciate your weighing in.  I remember you had a really good technical description of why zinc is important to the treatment.  I don't mess with Zicam, it never did me any good.

[bigheadfred]

Since most of the big chain stores instituted mandatory masks there has been a huge drop in customers.

There are enough other local businesses that may have higher prices, but I would rather give them my dollars than submit to any thing "mandatory".

[DB]

In the meantime, zinc has been shown to be beneficial, even as a cold remedy. Keep in mind, that all people vary, viruses vary, and nothing is 100%.

https://www.uchealth.org/today/zinc-could-help-diminish-extent-of-covid-19/

Zn2+ Inhibits Coronavirus and Arterivirus RNA Polymerase Activity In Vitro and Zinc Ionophores Block the Replication of These Viruses in Cell Culture https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176

I'm not arguing. I never really knew what homeopathic meant until I looked it up today... I was a little shocked at what I found...

[DB]

@Smokin Joe  I appreciate your weighing in.  I remember you had a really good technical description of why zinc is important to the treatment.  I don't mess with Zicam, it never did me any good.

I don't remember if Zicam was the first zinc product to come out as a cold treatment but I remember when I tried zinc for a cold it really messed up my sense of taste that lasted days so I didn't take it anymore and don't recommend others take it for that reason.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe  I appreciate your weighing in.  I remember you had a really good technical description of why zinc is important to the treatment.  I don't mess with Zicam, it never did me any good.

I don't use Zicam, but then, I don't catch colds.

[Cyber Liberty]

I don't use Zicam, but then, I don't catch colds.

Dittos.  For some strange reason, colds are not common in the Mojave Desert.  (I changed Deserts.  Used to be the Sonoran.)

[Bigun]

I don't use Zicam, but then, I don't catch colds.

I have used Zicam and believe it did exactly what the label claims it will do (lessen the length and severity of the cold).

I rarely get a cold so I don't use it often but it is in our medicine cabinet.