Author Topic: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice  (Read 1202 times)

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Offline Elderberry

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Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« on: February 09, 2020, 03:29:06 pm »
By Strange Sounds -Feb 9, 2020

There is abundance of combustible ice found on the bottom of the Joetsu Basin in the Japan Sea

And scientists have discovered the existence of life in that so-called flammable ice.

Microdolomite and Bacteria Symbiosis

While melting the hydrate to study the methane gas release, the lead author of the study noticed a deposit left behind that contained some small spheroidal grains, called microdolomites.

Moreover, oil was shown to be degraded by bacteria in the microenvironments surrounding the grains. Doing so, scientists discovered that the bacteria were enabling the growth of the microdolomites:

    The bacteria feeding off the oil, produce oxidized carbon in the process.
    The oxidized carbon, a key component of the microdolomites, is then used to continually grow the grain.
    Meanwhile, the bacteria were building a home for themselves.

But where else this microhabitat might exist?

In space, you are right. Just think about the multiple icy moons of Jupiter and other giant gaseous planets or even Pluto in our solar system.

Yep, all those frigid cold planets, moons, asteroids and comets at the edge of every planetary system could host tiny microhabitats with microbes building their own ‘death stars’ and making their own tiny little atmospheres and ecosystems, just as these scientists have discovered here.

More: https://strangesounds.org/2020/02/life-discovered-flammable-ice-methane-hydrates.html

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2020, 03:36:06 pm »
Quote
combustible ice


@Elderberry

Say WHAT?????

Yeah,ice is made from water and water has oxygen and hydrogen in it that makes it combustable,but you are going to use up a LOT of matches and disposable lighters trying to set it off without compressing in in the core of an explosion.
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Offline Elderberry

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2020, 03:49:41 pm »

@Elderberry

Say WHAT?????

Yeah,ice is made from water and water has oxygen and hydrogen in it that makes it combustable,but you are going to use up a LOT of matches and disposable lighters trying to set it off without compressing in in the core of an explosion.

@sneakypete

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2020, 07:39:53 pm »
@Elderberry

Thanks! There are some things you have to see to believe.
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Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2020, 09:35:11 pm »

Yep, all those frigid cold planets, moons, asteroids and comets at the edge of every planetary system could host tiny microhabitats with microbes building their own ‘death stars’ and making their own tiny little atmospheres and ecosystems, just as these scientists have discovered here.


God created earth and all the animals and plants thereon.  We are alone.  There are no other microbes anywhere, much less bigger things.  The statistics of naturalistic protein synthesis are insuperable (impossible).  1/20 to the 150th power is far beyond impossible, and that is just for one very simple protein.  Just one.  We have 5,000 in our bodies, ranging in size up to 33,450 amino acid residues in length.  What is 1/20 to the 33,450th please?  You can get closer to zero than that, but it really isn't necessary.
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Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2020, 09:39:15 pm »
@sneakypete

Yeah, ice is made from water and water has oxygen and hydrogen in it that makes it combustible, but you are going to use up a LOT of matches and disposable lighters trying to set it off without compressing in in the core of an explosion.


No water is NOT "combustible."  Gasoline, natural gas, diesel fuel, propane and hydrogen all burn to produce carbon dioxide and water.  So water has nothing to burn.  Try it with your tap water.  Use as many matches as you wish.

Here's a thought experiment:  Why is water used to put out fires if it burns?
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2020, 11:23:39 pm »
No water is NOT "combustible."  Gasoline, natural gas, diesel fuel, propane and hydrogen all burn to produce carbon dioxide and water.  So water has nothing to burn.  Try it with your tap water.  Use as many matches as you wish.

Here's a thought experiment:  Why is water used to put out fires if it burns?


@DeerSlayer

All water is not the same.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2020, 11:44:48 pm »
No water is NOT "combustible."  Gasoline, natural gas, diesel fuel, propane and hydrogen all burn to produce carbon dioxide and water.  So water has nothing to burn.  Try it with your tap water.  Use as many matches as you wish.

Here's a thought experiment:  Why is water used to put out fires if it burns?
With some fires, water is the last choice. Combustible metals (Magnesium, for example) burn at temperatures which will dissociate the atoms in a water molecule, adding hydrogen and oxygen to the fire. That's what class D fire extinguishers are used for.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2020, 01:41:39 pm »
The ice itself does not burn.  The methane trapped in the ice lattice is released with heat and the methane burns.



The water does not break the bonds and become hydrogen and oxygen.  It just melts to get out of the way.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2020, 01:43:49 pm »
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1

More complete video
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Offline EdinVA

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2020, 02:07:54 pm »

@Elderberry
I need help with my secret decoder ring on this one....
I am gathering that it is not the fact that they found methane gas, it is the potential storage capacity of these gases that is significant, correct?
Would this help with, for example, the development of hydrogen fuel cells?




Offline thackney

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2020, 02:36:31 pm »
@Elderberry
I need help with my secret decoder ring on this one....
I am gathering that it is not the fact that they found methane gas, it is the potential storage capacity of these gases that is significant, correct?
Would this help with, for example, the development of hydrogen fuel cells?

What is released is methane, same as natural gas.

In Alaska, they have experimented with producing the methane trapped in the methane hydrate, below the permafrost.

It is piped into the Natural Gas Network of piping.

The world wide quantity is massive.  The release of the methane from the methane hydrate is challenging.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2020, 02:38:27 pm »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2020, 03:08:19 pm »
The ice itself does not burn.  The methane trapped in the ice lattice is released with heat and the methane burns.



The water does not break the bonds and become hydrogen and oxygen.  It just melts to get out of the way.

@thackney

Can you try to dumb this down to where semi-normal people like me can understand it. I can comprehend the water separating from other chemicals,but I can not understand how it can separate under fire and not "burn" the hydrogen and the oxygen,both of which are very flammable.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2020, 03:16:22 pm »
@thackney

Can you try to dumb this down to where semi-normal people like me can understand it. I can comprehend the water separating from other chemicals,but I can not understand how it can separate under fire and not "burn" the hydrogen and the oxygen,both of which are very flammable.

The water does not separate into hydrogen and oxygen under these conditions.  The chemical bond of the water molecule is fairly strong.  It changes state, melting then evaporating, but it remains H2O.

As the ice melts, the methane burns, which melts more ice, which releases more methane....

Also keep in mind, the methane is not trapped in a chemical bond with the water.  It is physically trapped with a few ice molecules.  Held in place but not chemically bonded.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 03:18:16 pm by thackney »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2020, 04:21:13 pm »
The water does not separate into hydrogen and oxygen under these conditions.  The chemical bond of the water molecule is fairly strong.  It changes state, melting then evaporating, but it remains H2O.

As the ice melts, the methane burns, which melts more ice, which releases more methane....

Also keep in mind, the methane is not trapped in a chemical bond with the water.  It is physically trapped with a few ice molecules.  Held in place but not chemically bonded.

@thackney

Ok,thanks. I THINK I now have an inkling. No small accomplishment,trust me on this.
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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2020, 09:12:01 pm »
@sneakypete

Solids are not the only form of matter that can be dissolved in water.  Gasses can be dissolved in water just like table salt or sugar.  Clorox bleach, for example, is essentially water with Chlorine dissolved in it.  It reverts to water if you leave the cap off the jug.  IIRC, HydroChloric acid is like that, too, because HCl is a gas at room temperature.  Long, long time since college chemistry.

It comes as no surprise ice exists with methane dissolved in water, and will be released as the water changes from ice to liquid to gas.  Voila!  Ice that burns a fire that feeds itself by creating enough heat to melt more ice and release more methane.
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Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2020, 02:18:47 am »
@sneakypete

Solids are not the only form of matter that can be dissolved in water.  Gasses can be dissolved in water just like table salt or sugar.  Clorox bleach, for example, is essentially water with Chlorine dissolved in it.  It reverts to water if you leave the cap off the jug.  IIRC, HydroChloric acid is like that, too, because HCl is a gas at room temperature.  Long, long time since college chemistry.

It comes as no surprise ice exists with methane dissolved in water, and will be released as the water changes from ice to liquid to gas.  Voila!  Ice that burns a fire that feeds itself by creating enough heat to melt more ice and release more methane.


CL, the solubility of methane in water (1 atm and 12 C) is a paltry 27 milligrams per liter.  This equals 0.009524 of an ounce.  The heat of fusion of water is extremely high, 80 times the specific heat of water, and .0009524 of an ounce PER LITER won't cut it.

Liquids also dissolve in water, many of them called "miscible."  Alcohol is a good example.  You can disperse a drop of alcohol in a liter of water and vice versa.  You can mix them 50/50 or in any other proportion.
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Offline Elderberry

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2020, 02:28:29 am »
Methane clathrate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate

Quote
Methane clathrate (CH4·5.75H2O) or (4CH4·23H2O), also called methane hydrate, hydromethane, methane ice, fire ice, natural gas hydrate, or gas hydrate, is a solid clathrate compound (more specifically, a clathrate hydrate) in which a large amount of methane is trapped within a crystal structure of water, forming a solid similar to ice.[1][2][3] Originally thought to occur only in the outer regions of the Solar System, where temperatures are low and water ice is common, significant deposits of methane clathrate have been found under sediments on the ocean floors of the Earth.[4]

Methane clathrates are common constituents of the shallow marine geosphere and they occur in deep sedimentary structures and form outcrops on the ocean floor. Methane hydrates are believed to form by the precipitation or crystallisation of methane migrating from deep along geological faults. Precipitation occurs when the methane comes in contact with water within the sea bed subject to temperature and pressure. In 2008, research on Antarctic Vostok and EPICA Dome C ice cores revealed that methane clathrates were also present in deep Antarctic ice cores and record a history of atmospheric methane concentrations, dating to 800,000 years ago.[5] The ice-core methane clathrate record is a primary source of data for global warming research, along with oxygen and carbon dioxide.

Structure and composition

The nominal methane clathrate hydrate composition is (CH4)4(H2O)23, or 1 mole of methane for every 5.75 moles of water, corresponding to 13.4% methane by mass, although the actual composition is dependent on how many methane molecules fit into the various cage structures of the water lattice. The observed density is around 0.9 g/cm3, which means that methane hydrate will float to the surface of the sea or of a lake unless it is bound in place by being formed in or anchored to sediment.[7] One litre of fully saturated methane clathrate solid would therefore contain about 120 grams of methane (or around 169 litres of methane gas at 0 °C and 1 atm),[nb 1] or one cubic metre of methane clathrate releases about 160 cubic metres of gas.[6]

Methane forms a structure I hydrate with two dodecahedral (12 vertices, thus 12 water molecules) and six tetradecahedral (14 water molecules) water cages per unit cell. (Because of sharing of water molecules between cages, there are only 46 water molecules per unit cell.) This compares with a hydration number of 20 for methane in aqueous solution.[8] A methane clathrate MAS NMR spectrum recorded at 275 K and 3.1 MPa shows a peak for each cage type and a separate peak for gas phase methane.[citation needed] In 2003, a clay-methane hydrate intercalate was synthesized in which a methane hydrate complex was introduced at the interlayer of a sodium-rich montmorillonite clay. The upper temperature stability of this phase is similar to that of structure I hydrate.[9]

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Offline EdinVA

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2020, 02:48:37 am »
We treat methane gas as a waste by product.All of the landfills burn off the methane..Oil refineries burn off methaneMethane gas is the largest pollutant today and the climate "warriors" are yelling about it...
So why are we spending hundreds of millions of dollars to do this research?

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2020, 03:38:30 am »
For a "waste by product" there sure is a lot of effort to gather it use it and sell it.

Quote
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=41713

From January through June of 2019, U.S. net natural gas exports averaged 4.1 billion cubic feet per day (Bcf/d), more than double the average net exports in 2018 (2.0 Bcf/d), according to data in the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) Natural Gas Monthly. The United States became a net natural gas exporter (exported more than it imported) on an annual basis in 2017 for the first time in almost 60 years.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/use-of-natural-gas.php

The United States used about 30 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) of natural gas in 2018, the equivalent of 31 quadrillion British thermal units (Btu) and 31% of total U.S. primary energy consumption.


Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2020, 12:11:57 pm »
We treat methane gas as a waste by product.All of the landfills burn off the methane..Oil refineries burn off methaneMethane gas is the largest pollutant today and the climate "warriors" are yelling about it...
So why are we spending hundreds of millions of dollars to do this research?
Actually the stick and carrot are taxation/penalties for excessive emissions or flaring at production locations, and that methane (and the other component gasses in wellhead gas, with some exceptions) is marketable.
Ambient methane (and other VOCs and flammable gasses) near production facilities are a safety hazard, not to mention a waste of marketable product, so leaks are undesirable.
While sometimes, the G.O.R. (Gas/Oil Ratio) is so low and the site so remote as to make capture of those gasses uneconomical, those gasses can be flared and waivers granted.
Flaring is also used as a way to dispose of gas which cannot be transported due to capacity problems in the gathering and processing system. However, when the gas is flared, the Methane is burned (CO2 and Water vapor result).

The reason that the Climate Gang is having fits about methane is that it is a byproduct of Oil production, and even coal mining. This is a back door attack on the production of those fuels, and Methane is the desired product in Natural Gas operations.

IOW, whatever it is, they hate it, especially if it works.

Remember when Natural Gas was marketed as the "safer, cleaner alternative" to bunker fuels (fuel oil) and coal?

Well, typically, those goalposts have been moved, and now we're all supposed to be sunning our arses on a beach somewhere next to Hudson's Bay in January without benefit of so much a a popgun to ward off those poor fuzzy polar bears who just came ashore because they were out of ice floes to paddle around. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 12:14:13 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Offline thackney

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2020, 12:12:34 pm »
We treat methane gas as a waste by product.All of the landfills burn off the methane..

Some capture, clean and sell it.  I have been on the design team of a couple.  But that has some many corrosive contaminants it is rarely economical.

Quote
Oil refineries burn off methane

Not in regular process.  Most of it is captured and sold.

Quote
Methane gas is the largest pollutant today and the climate "warriors" are yelling about it...
So why are we spending hundreds of millions of dollars to do this research?

Because it is valuable and plentiful.
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Offline EdinVA

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2020, 12:33:29 pm »
Actually the stick and carrot are taxation/penalties for excessive emissions or flaring at production locations, and that methane (and the other component gasses in wellhead gas, with some exceptions) is marketable.
Ambient methane (and other VOCs and flammable gasses) near production facilities are a safety hazard, not to mention a waste of marketable product, so leaks are undesirable.
While sometimes, the G.O.R. (Gas/Oil Ratio) is so low and the site so remote as to make capture of those gasses uneconomical, those gasses can be flared and waivers granted.
Flaring is also used as a way to dispose of gas which cannot be transported due to capacity problems in the gathering and processing system. However, when the gas is flared, the Methane is burned (CO2 and Water vapor result).

The reason that the Climate Gang is having fits about methane is that it is a byproduct of Oil production, and even coal mining. This is a back door attack on the production of those fuels, and Methane is the desired product in Natural Gas operations.

IOW, whatever it is, they hate it, especially if it works.

Remember when Natural Gas was marketed as the "safer, cleaner alternative" to bunker fuels (fuel oil) and coal?

Well, typically, those goalposts have been moved, and now we're all supposed to be sunning our arses on a beach somewhere next to Hudson's Bay in January without benefit of so much a a popgun to ward off those poor fuzzy polar bears who just came ashore because they were out of ice floes to paddle around.
@Smokin Joe@thackney
Ah, so there is a "market" for the methane itself...
I was just impressed with the volume of gas they were able to store, 163 times, in a liter of clathrate and evidently they can do the same thing with pretty much any gas, hydrogen fuel cells come to mind.Thanks for helping grasp this...

Offline thackney

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Re: Life Discovered in Flammable Ice
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2020, 12:48:20 pm »
@Smokin Joe@thackney
Ah, so there is a "market" for the methane itself...
I was just impressed with the volume of gas they were able to store, 163 times, in a liter of clathrate and evidently they can do the same thing with pretty much any gas, hydrogen fuel cells come to mind.Thanks for helping grasp this...

The market is the Natural Gas Market, rather huge.

It is not an effective storage method, requiring low temperature, high pressure, and deal with the water.  It is far cheaper and more useful just to compress the gas.  Just normal pipeline is a ~100:1 volume reduction.  LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas) which is stored cold, is a ~600:1 reduction.

https://giignl.org/about-lng/lng-basics
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