Catholic Bishops: Homosexuality is ‘Normal’ and ‘Unchangeable’

[rangerrebew]

Catholic Bishops: Homosexuality is ‘Normal’ and ‘Unchangeable’
Keely Sharp
December 11, 2019

The German Catholic bishops’ conference issued a statement that homosexuality is “normal” and unchangeable. They also added that adultery is no longer a “serious sin.”

For one, it will never be normal, like heterosexual relationships. It’s bad enough that society is trying to normalize it, let alone the church. For two, all sin is equal in the eyes of God, according to the bible. Therefore it’s absurd to say that adultery is no longer a “serious” sin, because they are equal.

The communiqué said that both homosexuasl and heterosexuals “belong to the normal forms of a sexual predisposition that cannot and should not be changed by any specific socialization.”

https://dailypoliticalnewswire.com/catholic-bishops-homosexuality-is-normal-and-unchangeable/

[rangerrebew]

It shouldn't take long for Muslims to convince them they are wrong.

[Jazzhead]

Agree and disagree.   Homosexuality is indeed normal,  and the mere fact of one's unchangeable sexual orientation cannot be a sin.   What one chooses to do with one's sexual orientation is quite another matter.    I have gay colleagues who have been faithful to each other for many years, and straight colleagues already on their third wives.   Sin is, IMO, a matter of a lack of faithfulness - the betrayal of a life partner is far more "serious"  than choosing a life partner who happens to be of the same sex.   

I applaud the German bishops for extending Christian love to the homosexual, but not for excusing the faithlessness of partners - gay and straight - who cheat.   

[libertybele]

Agree and disagree.   Homosexuality is indeed normal,  and the mere fact of one's unchangeable sexual orientation cannot be a sin.   What one chooses to do with one's sexual orientation is quite another matter.    I have gay colleagues who have been faithful to each other for many years, and straight colleagues already on their third wives.   Sin is, IMO, a matter of a lack of faithfulness - the betrayal of a life partner is far more "serious"  than choosing a life partner who happens to be of the same sex.   

I applaud the German bishops for extending Christian love to the homosexual, but not for excusing the faithlessness of partners - gay and straight - who cheat.

In 1973 the American Psychiatrist Association removed homosexuality as a mental disorder.  Since then studies and papers have been written indicating that homosexuality is NOT normal as recently as 2015.  I tend to agree with the later. 

Secondly, homosexuals are 4 to 6 times more likely to commit suicide than straights.

Then there is the religious aspect.  Clearly, the Bible states that engaging in homosexual behavior is a sin.

IMHO this is the most radical and liberal Catholic pope in history.  Bishops and archbishops are supposed to follow the apostolic line of succession, so I really question those German Catholic bishops determination and reasoning.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771012/

[Jazzhead]

Secondly, homosexuals are 4 to 6 times more likely to commit suicide than straights.

Then there is the religious aspect.  Clearly, the Bible states that engaging in homosexual behavior is a sin.

You think there might be some correlation there?    Might the mainstream interpretation of the Bible as condemning those who engage in homosexuality have something to do with the prevalence of suicide among those who, try as they might, cannot change the way God made them?   

[skeeter]

You think there might be some correlation there?    Might the mainstream interpretation of the Bible as condemning those who engage in homosexuality to eternal damnation have something to do with the prevalence of suicide among those who, try as they might, cannot change the way God made them?

No, its not Christian orthodoxy at fault.

I think the AMA had the reason for the higher rate of suicides among homosexuals nailed, up until 1973 anyway.

[Mod1]

I'm going to step in right here and remind members that religious debates will be shut down. Do not go there.

[thackney]

They also added that adultery is no longer a “serious sin.”

Wow, vows on the alter to God not important...

[PeteS in CA]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/german-bishops-proclaim-homosexuality-normal-adultery-not-grave

German bishops proclaim homosexuality ‘normal,’ adultery ‘not grave’

BERLIN, December 9, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) ― The Commission for Marriage and Family of the German Bishops’ Conference has come to a consensus that homosexuality is a “normal form of sexual predisposition.”

Two German prelates have also claimed that Amoris Laetitia teaches that sexual relationships formed after a divorce are neither gravely sinful nor a bar to the reception of Holy Communion.

On December 5, the German Bishops’ Conference published a press release detailing the results of an “expert consultation on the topic ‘The sexuality of man: how to discuss it scientifically-theologically, and how to assess it ecclesiastically?’”

Pretty sure Catholic doctrine has stated the opposite, regarding homosexuality, from the start. Then there's that guy Who said this:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That's from Matthew 5, the "Sermon on the Mount". He also included this in one of his parables:

But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they must respond to them.’

The Law of Moses clearly and specifically forbade homosexuality, and Jesus avowed Moses' Law as right and righteous.

[Idiot]

Agree and disagree.   Homosexuality is indeed normal,  and the mere fact of one's unchangeable sexual orientation cannot be a sin.   What one chooses to do with one's sexual orientation is quite another matter.    I have gay colleagues who have been faithful to each other for many years, and straight colleagues already on their third wives.   Sin is, IMO, a matter of a lack of faithfulness - the betrayal of a life partner is far more "serious"  than choosing a life partner who happens to be of the same sex.   

I applaud the German bishops for extending Christian love to the homosexual, but not for excusing the faithlessness of partners - gay and straight - who cheat.

[TomSea]

Again, per the Mod, no religious discussion but it seems, this topic is difficult to discuss except in that context.

All I will say, it seems the Church says one may have an orientation but you are not suppose to act on it per sexual desires, just the same way, heterosexuals are not suppose to commit adultery. This is all a German translation into English. I'm a bit weary of interpretations. Also, I might have heard this might have been said by a minority and not the majority. But overall, it does seem to be a religious discussion.

[roamer_1]

Then there is the religious aspect.  Clearly, the Bible states that engaging in homosexual behavior is a sin.

More so: Homosexuality is among the abominations... But so are adultery and fornication. To throw down on the homos, one would have to throw down on the adulterers and fornicators too.

Which, I think, is the proper answer btw.

I used this elsewhere a little while ago...

Why Sexual Morality May be Far More Important than You Ever Thought

It is a quasi-religious presentation of Unwin's work, which predicts the impact of immorality upon a nation... It will make you think.

The money shot is a correlation between fornication and the reduction of reason... that the acceptance of fornication invariably leads to reason fleeing, and the destruction of a culture within 3 generations...

To convert that to a religious or moral context: Justification of sin is causal to depravity, and the depraved mind cannot reason.

Grind that through your Bible and see were it goes...

[mountaineer]

Again, per the Mod, no religious discussion but it seems, this topic is difficult to discuss except in that context.

Yeah, that's the problem with a story like this. We can agree or disagree with the bishops, but explaining our opinion almost necessarily involves our interpretation of Scripture. 

[roamer_1]

I'm going to step in right here and remind members that religious debates will be shut down. Do not go there.

Alright @Mod1 ... but this is impossible to discuss without  religious overtones... And is too important a topic to ignore... Howabout providing some guardrails for this specific thread prior to shutdown?

[TomSea]

This seems to be a statement from the Bishops themselves in the original German:

https://www.dbk.de/nc/presse/aktuelles/meldung/fachkonsultation-die-sexualitaet-des-menschen/detail/

Translator:

Consensus prevailed on the question that human sexuality encompasses a pleasure, reproductive and relationship dimension. There was also agreement that the sexual preference of the person is shaped during puberty and that heterosexual or homosexual orientation is assumed. Both belong to the normal forms of sexual predisposition, which cannot be changed or need to be changed by any specific socialization. In the Church's deliberations, this means that any form of discrimination against homosexualpeople must be rejected, as has been required for some time, and also by Pope Francis in the post-Synodal letter Amori laetitia. However, the question of whether the teaching ban on homosexuality is still up-to-date was controversial, as was the question of the legality of the use of artificial contraceptives in marriage and in unmarried couples.

Two members of the German language group of the Roman Synod of Bishops of October 2015, Archbishop Koch and Bishop Bode, underlined the importance of a solid discussion based on humanities and theology and highlighted the already in Amoris laetitia developments. Thus, a sexual relationship after divorce and remarriage is no longer universally qualified as a serious sin and thus no longer provides for a general exclusion from the reception of the Eucharist.

This is doctrine and I'd be careful here.

The nature of the discussion is religious and I'm not sure if we can make simple interpretations of this.

"Two German prelates have also claimed that Amoris Laetitia teaches that sexual relationships formed after a divorce are neither gravely sinful nor a bar to the reception of Holy Communion".

But does the Bishop's document say "within a remarriage?"

@PeteS in CA

[roamer_1]

German bishops proclaim homosexuality ‘normal,’ adultery ‘not grave’

Pretty sure Catholic doctrine has stated the opposite, regarding homosexuality, from the start.

That's right - but lest one think to bash the Catholics alone, so does the doctrine of every denomination of Protestantism and Judaism as well.

This issue spans the entirety of the Judeo-Christian West.

[roamer_1]

Wow, vows on the alter to God not important...

I know, right?

[TomSea]

Wow, vows on the alter to God not important...

So, is this to say if one remarries after divorce, they should not have sexual relations still in the new marriage? I'm not sure if I agree with that. @thackney

[mountaineer]

Without getting into a debate on what the Bible actually says about homosexual behavior and adultery, it's probably fair to say these bishops are making statements that are 180 degrees from established church teaching, no matter whether you agree or disagree with them. That's significant: that some pastors today are deviating so dramatically from the clearly defined and expressed doctrine of their churches. It's not unique to the Roman Catholic church. (I say that as one who left one Presbyterian denomination because of what I perceived as an extreme departure from biblical teaching).

[Jazzhead]

Interesting.   It appears that I am more "liberal" than most on the question of acceptance of homosexuality,  but more "conservative" than most on the question of tolerance of promiscuity.   I am fine with folks - gay or straight - who are faithful to their partners,  and not so fine with folks - gay or straight - who betray their partners.   

[TomSea]

Per translating:

Consensus prevailed on the question that human sexuality encompasses a pleasure, reproductive and relationship dimension. There was also agreement that the sexual preference of the person is shaped during puberty and that heterosexual or homosexual orientation is assumed. Both belong to the normal forms of sexual predisposition, which cannot be changed or need to be changed by any specific socialization. In the Church's deliberations, this means that any form of discrimination against homosexualpeople must be rejected, as has been required for some time, and also by Pope Francis in the post-Synodal letter Amori laetitia. However, the question of whether the teaching ban on homosexuality is still up-to-date was controversial, as was the question of the legality of the use of artificial contraceptives in marriage and in unmarried couples.

"Sexual preference shaped during puberty", maybe.  "This means any discrimination against  homosexuals must be rejected." Pretty specific language there as to what they are saying. I'm not sure if saying "homosexuality is normal", if it is that simplistic of a definition.

They aren't saying people are born that way interestingly enough.

Anyway, this is just some Catholic Bishops from a country saying this. Will not affect established teaching per the Magisterium.

[libertybele]

Interesting.   It appears that I am more "liberal" than most on the question of acceptance of homosexuality,  but more "conservative" than most on the question of tolerance of promiscuity.   I am fine with folks - gay or straight - who are faithful to their partners,  and not so fine with folks - gay or straight - who betray their partners.   

Nope.  Infidelity is NOT ok.  On that we agree.

[corbe]

   Wouldn't it be fun to see GWB switch to Catholicism and run for POPE just to watch the @sneakypete head explode.   

[roamer_1]

Interesting.   It appears that I am more "liberal" than most on the question of acceptance of homosexuality,  but more "conservative" than most on the question of tolerance of promiscuity.   I am fine with folks - gay or straight - who are faithful to their partners,  and not so fine with folks - gay or straight - who betray their partners.   

That is not true @Jazzhead .  I specifically related adultery, fornication, and homosexuality as intolerable... Which inevitably covers promiscuity.

[roamer_1]

   Wouldn't it be fun to see GWB switch to Catholicism and run for POPE just to watch the @sneakypete head explode.   

I'll sell the tickets, you handle concession.