Nativity Scene Shows Holy Family Separated, Caged at U.S. Border

[rangerrebew]

Nativity Scene Shows Holy Family Separated, Caged at U.S. Border
 
Claremont UMC Nativity scene
 
Thomas D. Williams, Ph.D.9 Dec 2019
 
The Claremont United Methodist Church has erected a Nativity scene portraying the Holy Family separated and held in cages at the U.S.-Mexico border.

The Rev. Karen Clark Ristine, senior minister at the church, posted a photo of the Nativity scene on Facebook, saying the depiction had stirred her “to tears.”

“In a time in our country when refugee families seek asylum at our borders and are unwillingly separated from one another, we consider the most well-known refugee family in the world,” Rev. Ristine wrote.

“Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, the Holy Family. Shortly after the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary were forced to flee with their young son from Nazareth to Egypt to escape King Herod, a tyrant. They feared persecution and death,” she said, calling this the “theological” interpretation of the scene.

https://www.breitbart.com/immigration/2019/12/09/nativity-scene-shows-holy-family-separated-caged-at-u-s-border/

[rangerrebew]

So, for this Christian Minister, the reason for the season is no longer to celebrate the birth of Christ but to USE the birth of Christ to be a social justice warrior.  I'll bet that is a happy congregation. On the other hand, it is Mejifornia.

[TomSea]

"The Rev. Karen Clark Ristine"... I'm sure women can carry out cleric duties but usually, if the Reverend is a "Karen" for example, the church is going to be way out....and probably a small or select denomination.

And lastly, the other day, I looked it up, those cages were built during the Obama administration. I assume that administration "caged" people as well.

[PeteS in CA]

“Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, the Holy Family. Shortly after the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary were forced to flee with their young son from Nazareth to Egypt to escape King Herod, a tyrant.

One need not need be a historian to know that Judea - where Herod reigned and the "Holy Family" were - was part of the Roman Empire, Egypt was part of the Roman Empire, and the entire land route between was in the Roman Empire.

How a seminary-trained - Masters degree or Doctorate degree - minister could avoid knowing this, I cannot conceive. But since this was in the UMC ( @TomSea, while the UMC is leaking members pretty steadily, it is not small, yet; it is, however, usually reliably crazy-liberal within the US) I have no problem thinking this "minister" was playing fast and loose with facts to further her "greater" "truth".

[Cyber Liberty]

One need not need be a historian to know that Judea - where Herod reigned and the "Holy Family" were - was part of the Roman Empire, Egypt was part of the Roman Empire, and the entire land route between was in the Roman Empire.

How a seminary-trained - Masters degree or Doctorate degree - minister could avoid knowing this, I cannot conceive. But since this was in the UMC ( @TomSea, while the UMC is leaking members pretty steadily, it is not small, yet; it is, however, usually reliably crazy-liberal within the US) I have no problem thinking this "minister" was playing fast and loose with facts to further her "greater" "truth".

And this is why I left UMC many years ago.

[thackney]

One need not need be a historian to know that Judea - where Herod reigned and the "Holy Family" were - was part of the Roman Empire, Egypt was part of the Roman Empire, and the entire land route between was in the Roman Empire.

How a seminary-trained - Masters degree or Doctorate degree - minister could avoid knowing this, I cannot conceive. But since this was in the UMC ( @TomSea, while the UMC is leaking members pretty steadily, it is not small, yet; it is, however, usually reliably crazy-liberal within the US) I have no problem thinking this "minister" was playing fast and loose with facts to further her "greater" "truth".

I am trying to understand your post.  Are you claiming they did not flee from Herod, king of Judaea to Egypt?

Judaea was in the Roman Empire as well as Egypt, but they were not fleeing the Empire, only Herod.

[PeteS in CA]

I am trying to understand your post.  Are you claiming they did not flee from Herod, king of Judaea to Egypt?

Judaea was in the Roman Empire as well as Egypt, but they were not fleeing the Empire, only Herod.

I was pointing out that they were not immigrating from one country to another, and thus are not similar to illegals coming from another country to the US.

[TomSea]

One need not need be a historian to know that Judea - where Herod reigned and the "Holy Family" were - was part of the Roman Empire, Egypt was part of the Roman Empire, and the entire land route between was in the Roman Empire.

How a seminary-trained - Masters degree or Doctorate degree - minister could avoid knowing this, I cannot conceive. But since this was in the UMC ( @TomSea, while the UMC is leaking members pretty steadily, it is not small, yet; it is, however, usually reliably crazy-liberal within the US) I have no problem thinking this "minister" was playing fast and loose with facts to further her "greater" "truth".

Well, I might have meant the individual church not the denomination as a whole. I don't want too talk to religious here, maybe I can say, I once went in on a weekday into a mainstream church with a female minister. They, as a whole church do not have low membership but I did feel like this church and I've seen other similar circumstances, likely had a very small congregation who attended church services there.

So, iow, Church as a whole is not small, particular individual church probably was. And that's probably true in many circumstances.

[PeteS in CA]

Well, I might have meant the individual church not the denomination as a whole. I don't want too talk to religious here, maybe I can say, I once went in on a weekday into a mainstream church with a female minister. They, as a whole church do not have low membership but I did feel like this church and I've seen other similar circumstances, likely had a very small congregation who attended church services there.

So, iow, Church as a whole is not small, particular individual church probably was. And that's probably true in many circumstances.

Looking over their website and location on Google Maps I'd guess it's a congregation of 100-300, depending on whether they share the parking lot of the neighboring bank. They have just one service on Sundays, so I would not be surprised if they're under 200 attendees. All ministerial staff are women, for whatever that's worth.

[TomSea]

Looking over their website and location on Google Maps I'd guess it's a congregation of 100-300, depending on whether they share the parking lot of the neighboring bank. They have just one service on Sundays, so I would not be surprised if they're under 200 attendees. All ministerial staff are women, for whatever that's worth.

" ..and probably a small or select denomination."

They certainly sound select and I mentioned thiss as well.

@PeteS in CA

[Cyber Liberty]

" ..and probably a small or select denomination."

They certainly sound select and I mentioned thiss as well.

@PeteS in CA

Leftism has been a central part of the entire UMC since the 80's.

[thackney]

I was pointing out that they were not immigrating from one country to another, and thus are not similar to illegals coming from another country to the US.

The two areas were not a peaceful agreement under the roman empire.  They went to war and took land from one another.  The operated like two separate countries rather than two states in the the US.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Herod-king-of-Judaea

During the conflict between the two triumvirs Octavian and Antony, the heirs to Caesar’s power, Herod supported his friend Antony. He continued to do so even when Antony’s mistress, Cleopatra, the queen of Egypt, used her influence with Antony to gain much of Herod’s best land. After Antony’s final defeat at Actium in 31 BCE, he frankly confessed to the victorious Octavian which side he had taken. Octavian, who had met Herod in Rome, knew that he was the one man to rule Palestine as Rome wanted it ruled and confirmed him king. He also restored to Herod the land Cleopatra had taken.

[thackney]

Leftism has been a central part of the entire UMC since the 80's.

I have to disagree.  The majority of the UMC voted to make Traditional Marriage between only a man and woman stronger in their rules. 

United Methodist court upholds Traditional Plan’s ban on LGBTQ clergy, same sex marriage
https://religionnews.com/2019/04/26/united-methodist-court-upholds-traditional-plans-ban-on-lgbt-clergy-same-sex-marriage/
April 26, 2019

There are large portions of UMC that are quite left, especially on and towards the US left coast.  But world wide, the conservative side of it is growing.  A lot of that support is rigid in Africa.

It is not the entire UMC and not even the majority.  But it is a very large percentage.

If interested, you should try searching on the Confessing Movement within the UMC and its growing strength for the past few decades.

[sneakypete]

Leftism has been a central part of the entire UMC since the 80's.

@Cyber Liberty

It is a basic truth that gets everybody's panties all in a wad,but Christ was the original communist.

[Cyber Liberty]

@Cyber Liberty

It is a basic truth that gets everybody's panties all in a wad,but Christ was the original communist.

Stop it.

[PeteS in CA]

The two areas were not a peaceful agreement under the roman empire.  They went to war and took land from one another.  The operated like two separate countries rather than two states in the the US.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Herod-king-of-Judaea

During the conflict between the two triumvirs Octavian and Antony, the heirs to Caesar’s power, Herod supported his friend Antony. He continued to do so even when Antony’s mistress, Cleopatra, the queen of Egypt, used her influence with Antony to gain much of Herod’s best land. After Antony’s final defeat at Actium in 31 BCE, he frankly confessed to the victorious Octavian which side he had taken. Octavian, who had met Herod in Rome, knew that he was the one man to rule Palestine as Rome wanted it ruled and confirmed him king. He also restored to Herod the land Cleopatra had taken.

That was over two decades before Jesus was born. Further, by the time Jesus was born, Antony and Cleopatra had committed suicide, and Octavian was Caesar Augustus, mentioned by name in Luke Chapter 2.

I have to disagree.  The majority of the UMC voted to make Traditional Marriage between only a man and woman stronger in their rules. 

United Methodist court upholds Traditional Plan’s ban on LGBTQ clergy, same sex marriage
https://religionnews.com/2019/04/26/united-methodist-court-upholds-traditional-plans-ban-on-lgbt-clergy-same-sex-marriage/
April 26, 2019

There are large portions of UMC that are quite left, especially on and towards the US left coast.  But world wide, the conservative side of it is growing.  A lot of that support is rigid in Africa.

It is not the entire UMC and not even the majority.  But it is a very large percentage.

If interested, you should try searching on the Confessing Movement within the UMC and its growing strength for the past few decades.

There was some over-simplification in one of my posts above, but "within the US" was recognition that, while liberalism - theological and political - are dominant in the UMC in the US, some parts of the UMC outside of the US are theologically conservative. I should have noted that those conservative areas of the UMC are also growing.

[sneakypete]

Stop it.

@Cyber Liberty

How can you possibly deny it?

[PeteS in CA]

@Cyber Liberty

It is a basic truth that gets everybody's panties all in a wad,but Christ was the original communist.

Care to explain your basis for that claim?

[Cyber Liberty]

@Cyber Liberty

How can you possibly deny it?

If this thread is turned into another diatribe against Christians, I'm going to be...most unhappy.  Deny that.

[Cyber Liberty]

Care to explain your basis for that claim?

Not on open thread please.  PM him if you must find out.

[PeteS in CA]

Not on open thread please.  PM him if you must find out.

Gotcha. I was wondering if I was going a step farther than is appropriate.

[Cyber Liberty]

Gotcha. I was wondering if I was going a step farther than is appropriate.

I've already seen where that particular discussion ends, and I don't like it.  It goes to the heart of why we'd prefer to stay away from heady religious discussion.   

[thackney]

There was some over-simplification in one of my posts above, but "within the US" was recognition that, while liberalism - theological and political - are dominant in the UMC in the US, some parts of the UMC outside of the US are theologically conservative. I should have noted that those conservative areas of the UMC are also growing.

There is definitely a significant conservative portion UMC in the US.  Groups like the Confessing Movement, Good News, UMAction and Wesleyan Covenant Assocation have gained in strength and numbers.  If that turns the church or splits it apart will be a question that many within are already asking.

[sneakypete]

Care to explain your basis for that claim?

@PeteS in CA

Is it possible you know nothing about him or what he taught?

Bunch of hairy-legged men sharing living quarters,sharing everything,"rich man has as much chance of getting into heaven as a camel does to pass through the eye of a needle,love your fellow man,we iz da wurld,etc,etc,etc. ANY of that stuff ring a bell?

Hell,even Stalin,who went to divinity school to become a priest,recognized organized religion was a threat to state power. Despite the lies told during the Cold War,Stalin did NOT shut down all the Orthodox Churches in Russia. He just made "Orthodox Priest" a KGB career field. Who better to spy on what the people are doing and saying than a priest that hears their confessions?

In FACT,the Russian Orthodox Church was the biggest backer of the Communist candidate (can't remember his name now) that ran against Yeltsin. I was in Moscow during that election,and witnessed some of the rallies myself.

[sneakypete]

If this thread is turned into another diatribe against Christians, I'm going to be...most unhappy.  Deny that.

@Cyber Liberty

You seem to confuse historical facts with diatribes.