Author Topic: Sanford announces challenge to Trump  (Read 5312 times)

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Offline XenaLee

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #200 on: September 11, 2019, 10:56:26 pm »
Downside:  Hauling the trash down to the street is a real PITA.

Highly trained sled dogs?   lolololol
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #201 on: September 11, 2019, 11:11:14 pm »
I'm told Trump has lost all the support of people who never voted for him...not sure what that even means.

 :beer:

Maybe we are doomed next November -- maybe Trump can't win, and we'll piss off every Trump supporter if we try to boot him out in favor of someone else.  Perhaps that's reality.  But if so, we may as well ride with Trump because that at least won't split the party to the same degree.  The NeverTrumpers will get their wish anyway if he loses, and his supporters will at least think that the party backed him, and so show up at the polls in November to vote for Congress.  And 2024 will be a new day.

But if the party turns on Trump in 2020, a whole lot of Trump supporters are going to abandon the party for good, and they won't show up in 2020 to back the congressional candidates of a party they'll view as having betrayed them.  And most of them won't come back in 2024 regardless of who the nominee is.  Sometimes, playing out the hand is the best you can do.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #202 on: September 11, 2019, 11:17:25 pm »
Let's lay this out a bit.

If Trump loses this election in 2020, it will be due to two elements within the GOP.

Element One is just too weak kneed to actually back a President who FIGHTS back when the Left/Media smears him.

Element Two is too morally narcissistic and ill educated to understand that compromises (like increasing spending on Defense) must be made in a Republic and that President's can't simply waive their imperial hand and get everything they want. In other words, they lack understanding of the constitution, its intention to require political compromise, and the role of an Executive in that process.

As Element One, we have the Tea-totaling Manhattanites who consider him to vulgar and boorish...the types who can't look their liberal pals in the eye when Trump puts out an "Oh so plebeian" tweet.

Element Two consists of the "there's no difference between the Dems and Trump" crowd who see no difference between a Kavanaugh and Sotomayor on the Supreme court.

There is hope for Element One, as they may yet vote for Trump privately while publicly disavowing him...that goes over better at Tea Parties in the Village after all. 

Element Two, on the other hand, is the "let it burn" crowd. They cling to their "GOP and the Left are all the same" meme as a religious tenet...and while they can't defend that position with any facts or reason, they don't need to in their own minds because its an article of faith (thus rendering reason and facts irrelevant).  Evidence and political reality simply don't register with these "jihadis of the moralist right"..and anyone who disagrees with them is an apostate (otherwise known to them as a Trump Supporter).

Much as the GOP and conservative movement need these people to help in the fight against the rising tide of the Left...they will likely never join in because they lack the moral courage to do so. I say "moral courage" because that's what is needed for someone to elevate reason above belief...acknowledge their logical error...and join in political battle against the socialists. Having clung to "belief" these past two years in the face of a tidal wave of countering facts, its become clear that there is little the rest of us can do persuade these folks.

Making a long story short. If we lose in 2020, it will simply and directly be because of these two groups...small as they are within the broader conservative movement. They make up 10-12% of the Right...which explains Gallups consistent 88-90% measurement of President Trump's party approval...which is quite possibly enough to hand the elections to the Left (which is precisely what some of these people want to happen).

« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 11:19:52 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #203 on: September 11, 2019, 11:22:20 pm »
:beer:

...

Sometimes, playing out the hand is the best you can do.

That's about the size of it, and I'm tired of the criticism of Every.  Damned.  Thing.  He.  Does.  Or.  Says.
 
I'm not saying he's perfect, or anywhere close, but he's the Army we have.

The argument always boils down to "He's not perfect, so I refuse to support him."  I'm just running that out to its logical conclusion when I say, "Screw it then, point the car at the cliff and floor it."  That is where I am today. 
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #204 on: September 11, 2019, 11:54:31 pm »
Let's put aside how folks will vote if it turns out the choice is between Trump and a socialist.  A vote with nose clenched is still a vote.

But that is not where we are now.  It is not inevitable that Trump be the nominee,  in the face of clear and sustained evidence that he will likely lose the election.   We can still make a choice regarding who will represent our party.  We do not need to accept the premise of the Kobayashi Maru.   We are Republicans,  and we should vote - in the primary - as our consciences dictate.   We should not be denied that opportunity by fanatic Trumpsters or sycophant party elites.

Sanford is a proven conservative.  I can easily support him on the merits. I am prepared to send a message, along with the apparent 40 percent or so of Republicans who want the Reality Show primaried.

My goal is not to bury Trump, but to sustain his legacy.  I believe he cannot win, no matter how fervent the support of his base.  I see no hope with him as the nominee,  acknowledging as I say so that the media has given him the rawest of deals.   

This isn't about blind loyalty or blood sport.  This is about retaining the White House and Senate .  We have the issues,  we have the policies.   But Trump is the fatal distraction that will punch the Dems' ticket.

It is time to change the rules on the no-win scenario.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 12:01:15 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline cato potatoe

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #205 on: September 12, 2019, 12:06:54 am »
That's about the size of it, and I'm tired of the criticism of Every.  Damned.  Thing.  He.  Does.  Or.  Says.
 
I'm not saying he's perfect, or anywhere close, but he's the Army we have.

The argument always boils down to "He's not perfect, so I refuse to support him."  I'm just running that out to its logical conclusion when I say, "Screw it then, point the car at the cliff and floor it."  That is where I am today.

Trump isn't the army until he is nominated.  You and his other supporters can still convince him to quit.  Lots of high profile candidates would jump in at that point.  I suppose you're going to tell me no other Republican could defeat Fauxcahontas.

The real party split comes from differing visions.  Trump supporters by and large do not place a priority on fiscal restraint or ethical behavior.  They just don't.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #206 on: September 12, 2019, 12:09:57 am »
That's about the size of it, and I'm tired of the criticism of Every.  Damned.  Thing.  He.  Does.  Or.  Says.
 
I'm not saying he's perfect, or anywhere close, but he's the Army we have.

The argument always boils down to "He's not perfect, so I refuse to support him."  I'm just running that out to its logical conclusion when I say, "Screw it then, point the car at the cliff and floor it."  That is where I am today.
What’s really aggravating is the more good news results from this administration’s policies the louder they scream that Trump’s unelectable. There’s even a member here who says he loves what Trump has done so much he wants him run out of town in order to preserve it.

It don’t make no kind of sense.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #207 on: September 12, 2019, 12:11:18 am »
Trump isn't the army until he is nominated.  You and his other supporters can still convince him to quit.  Lots of high profile candidates would jump in at that point.  I suppose you're going to tell me no other Republican could defeat Fauxcahontas.

The real party split comes from differing visions.  Trump supporters by and large do not place a priority on fiscal restraint or ethical behavior.  They just don't.

So many words, all crammed into my mouth where they don't belong. 
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #208 on: September 12, 2019, 12:12:43 am »
What’s really aggravating is the more good news results from this administration’s policies the louder they scream that Trump’s unelectable. There’s even a member here who says he loves what Trump has done so much he wants him run out of town in order to preserve it.

It don’t make no kind of sense.

No, it does not.  It's the same thing as talking to a hard-line Antifa, really.  There is no functional difference.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #209 on: September 12, 2019, 12:31:59 am »
There’s even a member here who says he loves what Trump has done so much he wants him run out of town in order to preserve it.

It don’t make no kind of sense.

It happens all the time in the business world.  At some times a change agent is needed.  At other times,  changes made need to be preserved.  Companies change CEOs as circumstances change.

What makes no sense is shutting down debate and cancelling primaries in fealty to a flawed incumbent who will in all likelihood lose, a loss which, as @Mesaclone acknowledges,  could be the endgame for conservatives.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 12:33:12 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #210 on: September 12, 2019, 01:13:13 am »
Let's put aside how folks will vote if it turns out the choice is between Trump and a socialist.  A vote with nose clenched is still a vote.

But that is not where we are now.  It is not inevitable that Trump be the nominee,  in the face of clear and sustained evidence that he will likely lose the election.   We can still make a choice regarding who will represent our party.  We do not need to accept the premise of the Kobayashi Maru.

I'm truly confused by this.

In a Kobayashi Maru scenario, defeat is certain/preordained.  But that's not actually what you're arguing -- you're just saying that it is "likely".  So given that your stated goal is to avoid defeat, your position must be that your alternative is less likely to lose.  Or at a minimum, equally likely.  But you haven't even attempted to make that argument. Every single time someone has stated why they believe Sanford is even less electable than Trump, you've dodged it.  So are you claiming that Sanford is more electable than Trump, or not?   

Quote
We are Republicans,  and we should vote - in the primary - as our consciences dictate.

Well of course we should vote as our conscience dictates.  I don't think anyone is suggesting anything to the contrary. But that kind of begs the question of what factors we should consider when voting our conscience.  For me personally, electability is a core component of voting my conscience because I care about the end result.

Quote
My goal is not to bury Trump, but to sustain his legacy.  I believe he cannot win, no matter how fervent the support of his base.  I see no hope with him as the nominee,  acknowledging as I say so that the media has given him the rawest of deals.

Well, now I'm confused again.  You said above that his loss is "likely", and now you're back to claiming he "cannot" win.   

Quote
It is time to change the rules on the no-win scenario.

If you're changing the rules of a supposed "no-win" scenario, then you have to be able to explain why supporting Sanders makes winning more likely.  And again...I just don't think you've even attempted to do that.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #211 on: September 12, 2019, 01:21:40 am »
Trump isn't the army until he is nominated.  You and his other supporters can still convince him to quit.

If we're just going to assume that we all have the ability to convince others to do whatever we want, why don't you guys just convince all the other voters to vote for Trump, and that way he'll win?  Or better yet, just convince everyone else to write in someone like Ted Cruz or Sanford!

The idea that posters on a message board have the ability to convince Trump to quit is laughable.  The only scenario I could imagine in which he might quit is if Ivanka, Don Jr. and Melania all told him that he could not win, and that he should quit.  And none of them are taking my calls.

More to the point...If you can't convince all of us that Trump's loss is certain, what are the chances that an egotistical guy such as Trump himself is going to believe it??

« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 01:23:57 am by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #212 on: September 12, 2019, 01:45:12 am »
Trump's detractors on this site, have been wrong, from the early days of 2016.

Wrong about the primaries, wrong about the general election which he won.

Why should their opinions have any weight here?

The original Fake Deacon was wrong with his 100+ posts per day.


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Offline cato potatoe

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #213 on: September 12, 2019, 01:56:57 am »
The idea that posters on a message board have the ability to convince Trump to quit is laughable.  The only scenario I could imagine in which he might quit is if Ivanka, Don Jr. and Melania all told him that he could not win, and that he should quit.  And none of them are taking my calls.

More to the point...If you can't convince all of us that Trump's loss is certain, what are the chances that an egotistical guy such as Trump himself is going to believe it??

We have just as much chance of determining the electoral vote tally, and yet here we are.  You know what I don't understand ... why did people support Trump in the primaries under the fear that otherwise, he would make the nomination worthless?  Why did so many conservatives allow this old fatass to bully them around, and why are they doing it again?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 02:00:37 am by cato potatoe »

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #214 on: September 12, 2019, 01:59:49 am »
Trump isn't the army until he is nominated.  You and his other supporters can still convince him to quit.  Lots of high profile candidates would jump in at that point.  I suppose you're going to tell me no other Republican could defeat Fauxcahontas.

The real party split comes from differing visions.  Trump supporters by and large do not place a priority on fiscal restraint or ethical behavior.  They just don't.
There's no way Trump's giving up the seat alive, and I don't anticipate him not being alive come 2020.

It'd probably take supernatural intervention, which I also don't anticipate (though I suppose anything is possible) for that to change.
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Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #215 on: September 12, 2019, 02:35:09 am »
There's no way Trump's giving up the seat

Why would he when 90% of Republicans don't want him to?  Why do you overlook this little factoid?

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #216 on: September 12, 2019, 02:42:45 am »
Why would he when 90% of Republicans don't want him to?  Why do you overlook this little factoid?
Because I think they're wrong, that's why, and I'm not afraid to say it.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #217 on: September 12, 2019, 02:59:09 am »
You know what I don't understand ... why did people support Trump in the primaries under the fear that otherwise, he would make the nomination worthless?  Why did so many conservatives allow this old fatass to bully them around, and why are they doing it again?

I didn't vote for him in the primary.  He was infinitely preferable to Hillary in the general election, so I voted for him then.  And I think any effort to replace him now will alienate his supporters, and toss both the Presidency and Congress to the Democrats. 
 

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #218 on: September 12, 2019, 03:29:51 am »
Let's lay this out a bit.

If Trump loses this election in 2020, it will be due to two elements within the GOP.

Element One is just too weak kneed to actually back a President who FIGHTS back when the Left/Media smears him.

Element Two is too morally narcissistic and ill educated to understand that compromises (like increasing spending on Defense) must be made in a Republic and that President's can't simply waive their imperial hand and get everything they want. In other words, they lack understanding of the constitution, its intention to require political compromise, and the role of an Executive in that process.

As Element One, we have the Tea-totaling Manhattanites who consider him to vulgar and boorish...the types who can't look their liberal pals in the eye when Trump puts out an "Oh so plebeian" tweet.

Element Two consists of the "there's no difference between the Dems and Trump" crowd who see no difference between a Kavanaugh and Sotomayor on the Supreme court.

There is hope for Element One, as they may yet vote for Trump privately while publicly disavowing him...that goes over better at Tea Parties in the Village after all. 

Element Two, on the other hand, is the "let it burn" crowd. They cling to their "GOP and the Left are all the same" meme as a religious tenet...and while they can't defend that position with any facts or reason, they don't need to in their own minds because its an article of faith (thus rendering reason and facts irrelevant).  Evidence and political reality simply don't register with these "jihadis of the moralist right"..and anyone who disagrees with them is an apostate (otherwise known to them as a Trump Supporter).

C'mon, what about Element Three:   those that can see with their own eyes the liability that Trump's reckless, erratic governing style will have on a ticket that HAS to win in 2020?    And who are not so weak-kneed as those who grasp both ankles when the hard-core Trumpsters insist that primaries be cancelled.   
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #219 on: September 12, 2019, 03:38:09 am »
That's about the size of it, and I'm tired of the criticism of Every.  Damned.  Thing.  He.  Does.  Or.  Says.
 
I'm not saying he's perfect, or anywhere close, but he's the Army we have.

The argument always boils down to "He's not perfect, so I refuse to support him."  I'm just running that out to its logical conclusion when I say, "Screw it then, point the car at the cliff and floor it."  That is where I am today.

That's one of the arguments.  But there's just as much, "He's perfect, so YOU must support him (in all ways, and in everything he does)".

I don't buy into either side, but I've only seen one side telling other people what they have to do.
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Offline jafo2010

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #220 on: September 12, 2019, 03:38:23 am »
All the negative chatter by Jazz and Cato here is not supported by fact. 

Republicans overwhelmingly support Trump.  His opposition for 2020 in the primary is composed of solid LOSERS.  There is not one that will rise up above single digits.  Sanford is a huge joke.  This fool is a one percenter!  You think that conservatives are going to vote for this POS?  No way!  He will be in and out QUICKLY!

I supported Trump from week two of his campaign in 2016, where he largely announced the issues he wanted to address.  His platform was compelling, and he earned the following he has, unlike all his challengers.  That is why he bested 16 others, easily bested them.

I believe it was a Rasmusen poll in the last week that indicated that support for Trump is up 20% with blacks and Hispanics.  The news guy indicated if this is accurate, Trump will walk away with the election in November. 

I believe he will win by a larger margin than he did in 2016.  The only Dem that can give him a real run is HRC.  If she does not run, every other candidate in the Democommie Party will be road kill.  Flattened!

Trump takes 38-40 Electoral College states in 2020.  No Contest!

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #221 on: September 12, 2019, 03:40:47 am »
Because I think they're wrong, that's why, and I'm not afraid to say it.

 :facepalm2:

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #222 on: September 12, 2019, 04:06:40 am »
I'm truly confused by this.

In a Kobayashi Maru scenario, defeat is certain/preordained.  But that's not actually what you're arguing -- you're just saying that it is "likely".  So given that your stated goal is to avoid defeat, your position must be that your alternative is less likely to lose.  Or at a minimum, equally likely.  But you haven't even attempted to make that argument. Every single time someone has stated why they believe Sanford is even less electable than Trump, you've dodged it.  So are you claiming that Sanford is more electable than Trump, or not?   


My apologies for the imprecision.   Here's what I believe - that Trump as the nominee is almost certain to lose.   Among the reasons:

1.   Trump's poll numbers are absolutely terrible, especially given the favorable economy.  Yes,  you cannot trust a single poll,  but a series of them is ignored at your peril.  And he is being beaten in places like Texas,  which if lost will almost alone lead to Trump's defeat.

2.   The midwestern battleground states that provided his margin of victory are trending against him.  Those are states where suburban women hold the key, I can think of few groups that are more viscerally anti-Trump.   

3.  His rural base is being buffeted by his tariff policies.   He'll retain most of those blue states, to be sure,  but how will the loss of even two or three be made up elsewhere?

4.  Putting aside the nitty gritty of constructing a plausible electoral college strategy,  Trump is unable or unwilling to grow his base and the opposition is salivating at the prospect of a referendum on Trump. 

5.   He is a gaffe machine who cannot retain good counsel.    A parade of national security advisors and other top officials cast doubt in voters minds about his basic competence as a leader. He scares people.

6.  The Dems sense opportunity and blood in the water.   Folks of all stripes are clearly tired of the Reality Show.  Even those who support Trump hasten to concur that he's an erratic autocrat.   

Why is Sanford more electable than Trump?

a.   I think he has the good sense to make his message not so much as a repudiation of Trump but as an advocate of traditional Republican verities such as fiscal responsibility and free trade.   Meanwhile,  he will agree with the President, and his supporters,  with respect to (among other things) judicial nominations and the rejection of identity politics.   

b.  Trump supporters aren't stupid - I fail to see them staying home in a fit of pique, not when this election will decide the direction of the federal courts for a generation.   Sanford is a serious conservative with an attractive message to those willing to listen.   

c.  The Dems seek to exploit Trump angst by installing a full-throated socialist in the White House.   What better way to counter that message than with a champion of fiscal rectitude?  Fiscal profligacy countered by a call for a return to responsibility.    Sanford can,  I think, articulate conservative perspectives far better than the Game Show Host-in Chief,  and frame the choice well regarding the future direction of the leviathan state.

d.  If Trump's not the nominee, the Dems can no longer hide behind their bogeyman.   They must present their message of open borders, race hatred and  socialism out in the open where,  like roaches,  they can be exposed and extinguished.       

« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 04:12:11 am by Jazzhead »
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Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #223 on: September 12, 2019, 04:14:06 am »
My apologies for the imprecision.   Here's what I believe - that Trump as the nominee is almost certain to lose.   Among the reasons:

1.   Trump's poll numbers are absolutely terrible, especially given the favorable economy.  Yes,  you cannot trust a single poll,  but a series of them is ignored at your peril.  And he is being beaten in places like Texas,  which if lost will almost alone lead to Trump's defeat.


Offline Victoria33

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Re: Sanford announces challenge to Trump
« Reply #224 on: September 12, 2019, 06:09:33 am »
@Jazzhead

You said: "My apologies for the imprecision.   Here's what I believe - that Trump as the nominee is almost certain to lose.   Among the reasons..."

I agree with you.  I just read about Mark Sanford from his birth to now.  He won every election by a large margin, with one or two exceptions, when he ran for an office and this includes after he went to another country to see a woman.  He kept winning by large margins - that was extraordinary.  One of his primary reasons for running for office was,and is, to stop overspending.  He is right when he says Trump has spent more money than Obama right now and other presidents also overspent putting us in the financial trouble we are in.  (The last two times we spent within our budget was when Kasich was in the House of Representatives heading the Budget Committee.)

Sanford's  history in this regard will resonate with voters.  The woman thing he had did not matter as he kept winning offices after that by large margins based on his fiduciary goals of staying within a budget and reducing debt.  Which is more important - his affair or getting this government to stay within a budget and reduce debt? 

Trump has already tried bringing up Sanford's affair; he calls him, “Mr. Appalachian Trail.”  Trump is leaving himself open for Sanford to speak about the numerous affairs Trump had while married to his present wife and wives before her.  What is a name(s) for Trump having these affairs?  "Grab women Trump", "Sleep around Trump",  "I like sex with any pretty  woman Trump" - the names are endless.

Mark Sanford is running for President - he could win as he has won numerous times before.  What will do him in are the states that have shut down their Republican primary,leaving Trump with no primary opponent.