Author Topic: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'  (Read 1469 times)

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Online mystery-ak

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Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« on: August 27, 2019, 10:18:33 pm »
Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
by Naomi Lim
 | August 27, 2019 06:04 PM



Elizabeth Warren offered some blunt advice to women in a financial self-help book she wrote with her daughter in 2003: Don’t have children and, if you divorce, re-marry as soon as possible.

The senator for Massachusetts and Democratic 2020 presidential candidate, 70, and Amelia Warren Tyagi, 47, shared their recommendations in The Two Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Parents Are (Still) Going Broke. In its pages, the pair teamed up to lay out their case for how double-income couples started “a bidding war” in the middle class that raised the cost of living, so that working families had to commit both their salaries to, for example, paying off a mortgage on a house in a good school district rather than saving for a rainy day.

The book, based on the White House hopeful’s extensive bankruptcy research and her businesswoman daughter’s management consulting experience, cited data that indicated having a child is "the single best predictor that a woman will end up in financial collapse," with a divorced mother being almost "three times more likely to file for bankruptcy than her single friend who never had children."

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2019, 12:49:02 am »
That is even better advice for men. 
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2019, 02:05:28 am »
What she really means is no white woman should have a child.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2019, 02:48:41 am »
Narcissist.

Next...

Offline Victoria33

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2019, 02:52:11 am »
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2019, 03:26:30 am »
What she really means is no white woman should have a child.

No, if you read the article, that's not even close. 

Offline Victoria33

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 03:42:23 am »
@mystery-ak
@Cyber Liberty
@Applewood

"Don’t have children and, if you divorce, re-marry as soon as possible."

That sentence is one choice among many, to avoid going broke and having to file for bankruptcy - it happens. Better to know the possibilities/how it happens, than not to know. 

Let's see the background where/why this book originated: "The Two Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Parents Are (Still) Going Broke".

Warren is the expert in bankruptcy law, commercial law, consumer protection, to wit:

None here agree with her politics, but that does not negate her life's work. "Warren was registered as a Republican from 1991 to 1996.  She voted Republican for many years. "I was a Republican because I thought that those were the people who best supported markets."

Lawyers usually specialize in one broad category of law.  Elizabeth Warren specialized in the category of commercial law, bankruptcy law, consumer protection.  Studying bankruptcy law, doing research as stated below, she saw how families (all category of families: husband/wife, husband single with children, mother single with children), could easily end up filing for bankruptcy.  (This is easily the beginning of the above book; how to stay afloat and not drown in debt going into bankruptcy.)
 
Background:
In the 1960s, Warren and her husband moved to Houston, where he was employed by IBM.  She enrolled in the University of Houston and graduated in 1970 with a Bachelor of Science degree in speech pathology and audiology.  She also taught a Bible Class (Methodist).

The Warrens moved to New Jersey when Jim received a job transfer. She soon became pregnant and decided to remain at home to care for their daughter, Amelia.  After Amelia turned two, Warren enrolled in Rutgers Law School at Rutgers University–Newark.  Shortly before graduating in 1976, Warren became pregnant with their second child, Alexander.  She received her J.D. and passed the bar examination.

After she received her J.D. and passed the Bar exam, she decided to perform legal services from home, writing wills and doing real estate closings, in order to be at home with her son.

In the late 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s Warren taught law at several American universities while researching issues related to bankruptcy and middle-class personal finance.  She became involved with public work in bankruptcy regulation and consumer protection in the mid-1990s.

Warren's earliest academic work was heavily influenced by the law and economics movement, which aimed to apply neoclassical economic theory to the study of law with an emphasis on economic efficiency. One of her articles, published in 1980 in the Notre Dame Law Review, argued that public utilities were over-regulated and that automatic utility rate increases should be instituted.  But Warren soon became a proponent of on-the-ground research into how people respond to laws. Her work analyzing court records and interviewing judges, lawyers, and debtors, established her as a rising star in the field of bankruptcy law.

According to Warren and economists who follow her work, one of her key insights was that rising bankruptcy rates were caused not by profligate consumer spending but by middle-class families' attempts to buy homes in good school districts.  Warren worked in this field alongside colleagues Teresa A. Sullivan and Jay Westbrook, and the trio published their research in the book "As We Forgive Our Debtors in 1989."  Warren later recalled that she had begun her research believing that most people filing for bankruptcy were either working the system or had been irresponsible in incurring debts, but that she came to the conclusion that such abuse was in fact rare and that the legal framework for bankruptcy was poorly designed, describing the way the research challenged her fundamental beliefs as "worse than disillusionment" and "like being shocked at a deep-down level".  In 2004 she published an article in the Washington University Law Review in which she argued that over-consumption in the middle class was a myth.

Although she published in many fields, her expertise was in bankruptcy and commercial law.  In that field, only Bob Scott of Columbia and Alan Schwartz of Yale were cited more often than Warren.

On a personal note, she had to manage children and still educate herself and she went to whichever university was close to her as she followed her husband when he had to relocate.  I did the same thing - whichever university was near me is where I went and I also juggled two children to do it.

A single woman without marriage/children would allow the woman to excel much faster and command more money with the higher education and avoid poverty and bankruptcy.  That is what that one sentence means in the book at the start of this thread.

Unfortunately, she is a Democrat and should not be President.  I do believe her background as a universtiy level debater and lawyer who is not afraid/nervous with crowds, may/will be the candidate and face Trump in the Presidential Debates.  He is stuck calling her Pocahontas with nothing substantial after that.  A name will not do her in. 

« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 03:50:59 am by Victoria33 »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 03:48:47 am »
A single woman without marriage/children would allow the woman to excel much faster and command more money with the higher education and avoid poverty and bankruptcy.  That is what that one sentence means in the book at the start of this thread.

Sad is what that statement is.
And defunct in its position that a woman can 'excel' denying the very thing she's made for.
The definition of excellence in this case can only be bastardized beyond its mean. 

Offline Victoria33

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2019, 04:02:36 am »
Sad is what that statement is.
And defunct in its position that a woman can 'excel' denying the very thing she's made for.
The definition of excellence in this case can only be bastardized beyond its mean.
@roamer_1

Your body gives you choices, including yours.  Just because you "can" do something, doesn't mean you have to do it.  Marrying and having children is not the only way to contribute to the betterment of society.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2019, 04:32:37 am »
@roamer_1

Your body gives you choices, including yours.  Just because you "can" do something, doesn't mean you have to do it.  Marrying and having children is not the only way to contribute to the betterment of society.

@Victoria33

In the end a falsity... Against the commandment to be fruitful and multiply.

Offline Victoria33

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2019, 05:24:39 pm »
@Victoria33  In the end a falsity... Against the commandment to be fruitful and multiply.
@roamer_1
@Applewood
@mystery-ak

Roamer, you are being short-sighted about women's only purpose being to have children:

Reasons for not having children:

Men who do not want to be fathers.

Women who have other goals in their life that preclude having children.

Men who have other goals in their life that preclude having children.

Couple: not enough money to care for child; too poor.

Not marrying due to not finding the right person to marry.

Women out of an abusive marriage, choosing not to marry again.

Nuns who are married to the service of Jesus Christ.

Priests who are married to the service of Jesus Christ.

Other religious orders of men and women requiring their time 24 hrs. a day; no time to care for a family.

Women who are sterile for whatever medical reason.

Women who are physically deformed.

Case of physical deformity:
My sister-in-law, now deceased in her 50s due to lung disease (non-smoker), was born with two of some internal organs, neither in the right place for that organ.  Her reproductive organs were just one of each and in the right place.  She did marry and never used any type of birth control, but never conceived.  I can’t imagine how a baby could grow with most of the space inside her being taken up by extra organs. She was a 100% red head with the problems red headed people tend to have, especially skin.  There were many freckles on her skin, and she had skin cancer a number of times with the cure being cutting off the cancerous skin and replacing that skin with skin from other parts of her body. 

She did get a Master’s degree in Sociology and worked all her career life at a Center for Abused Women, helping these women deal with the abuse that happened, and got them back in the work force to regain their ability to care for themselves and their children, if they had children.  How many children’s lives were better because she helped their mother?   One does not have to birth children to help them.  Her life had purpose/a contribution to society without having children, just as millions of other childless women, by choice or medical reason, have unique contributions to society to help all people, including children.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 05:25:39 pm by Victoria33 »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2019, 05:41:50 pm »
Roamer, you are being short-sighted about women's only purpose being to have children:


No, @Victoria33 , I am not.
And I did not say it was a woman's only purpose.

And you can provide all the exceptions you would... exceptions only prove the rule.
 

Offline Applewood

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2019, 05:57:26 pm »
@Victoria33

Many Christian faiths take "be fruitful and multiply" very seriously -- to the point where women cannot work outside the home or have any other alternatives save for marriage and children.  Maybe that was what @roamer_1 is referring to?  I don't know.

I do know that, growing up in a mostly Catholic neighborhood, most women were expected to be stay-at-home wives and mothers.  If a woman didn't marry, she was an "old maid" and if she married, but didn't have children, then something must be wrong with her.  No one considered that maybe the couple made a conscious decision not to have children or maybe something was amiss with the husband.  Always a woman's fault. 

There weren't many careers for women in my Mom's day. Nurse, teacher, secretary, maybe a clerk or cashier.  A number of women like my mother worked part-time to supplement the husband's income.  But a full-time career for a woman was unheard of in our neighborhood.  Dad wanted both my brother and me to have a college education.  Mom did not approve of a college education for me -- until it was pointed out to her that maybe this was a way for me to snare a successful husband.  Then she was ok with it.  Alas, I was only able to attend business college for 2 years and never did find a husband or have kids -- to Mom's great disappointment.

Anyway, I think it should be a personal decision whether a woman marries and has children or not.   It was my decision not to do it, but I admire and respect those who do.  I abhor those "liberated" females who scoff at women who stay a t home and have children. Sometimes I think those who pick on the stay-at-homes are jealous or something.  And God bless those women who have a career and a husband/family.  I don't think I would have ever been able to do both. 




Offline roamer_1

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2019, 06:12:04 pm »

Many Christian faiths take "be fruitful and multiply" very seriously -- to the point where women cannot work outside the home or have any other alternatives save for marriage and children.  Maybe that was what @roamer_1 is referring to?  I don't know.


No, @Applewood , I am imposing nothing. And I understand that many opportunities abound.
But the bare fact, and history attests, that the nature of a woman is what it is,
ad there is no more noble and natural a thing that a woman can do.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2019, 08:17:33 pm »
I wonder how that advice will play out among Muslims?

That's enough to get you killed, Liz.
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2019, 12:12:25 am »
Roamer, you are being short-sighted about women's only purpose being to have children:

Reasons for not having children:

Men who do not want to be fathers.
Women who have other goals in their life that preclude having children.
Men who have other goals in their life that preclude having children.

All invalid.

Look at America's birth rate. If we were at or above replacement, maybe luxuries like "other goals in their life" would be worth pursuing, but we don't. We're not having enough children. All because too many of the women in my generation would rather live lives of luxury for themselves instead of actually doing something to ensure their bloodline's survival beyond their own life.

If your "goals in life" lead you to lead your family tree down a biological dead branch, you're a selfish human being. Period.

I would love nothing more than to be able to father a child and this is what I'm up against.
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2019, 12:41:53 am »
I wouldn't recommend women having children, either. Babies, yes. But pushing out a five or six-year-old has got to hurt.
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Online rustynail

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2019, 12:47:20 am »
If you don't they will.  Demography is destiny.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2019, 05:13:11 am »
I don't see marriage, nor child rearing as the problem. The problem is that the institution, the sacrament of Holy Matrimony has been so generally cheapened in our society by relatively easy divorce, that there is no stability. Couples who, more carefully united, could have built together toward not only mutual betterment, but the betterment of their children and prosperity find themselves riven, their assets divided with a share going to attorneys dependent on how contentious that schism.

When divorce was more rare, that was no guarantee against making bad choices, but a deterrent. Mothers returned to the workplace after the youngest entered school. Before that, a single income was sufficient to support any family (depending on size), if the breadwinner was a tradesperson or professional, had their own well run business, or a host of other possibilities, all of which were often carefully considered before their union in marriage.
After the second income became common, usually in the name of material goods, or, as noted by Warren, a 'better neighborhood and schools, enabling ("white") flight (and decay of the old neighborhood), inflation (during the Carter years, especially) devoured the advantage of the second income to the point where it became a virtual necessity, especially if the couple lacked the education or trade skill for just one of them to make a really good living.

Add easy divorce to stressful situations, and marriages failed which might have otherwise endured tough times. Economics are a great stress inducer, and can contribute to the grass looking greener on the other side of the fence.

Whatever the cause, the dissolution of family units has had a definite deleterious effect on the fiscal capabilities of the middle class, it is expensive, destructive to wealth, and that doesn't even begin to take account of the human misery and wreckage it leaves, at best causing serious setbacks to progress. In my parent's generation, there were no divorces. In mine, there were a few. Fast forward another couple generations and the number increases, then decreases, as the subsequent generation avoids marriage altogether, because their view is barely one of stable and loving long term relationships, and instead of partners who dispose of each other when the going gets tough.
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Offline Restored

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2019, 11:36:28 am »
I wish someone had told her mother that.

The reason they haven't come up with men's birth control is that they don't want men controlling when they want to procreate.
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2019, 11:41:49 am »
I wouldn't recommend women having children, either. Babies, yes. But pushing out a five or six-year-old has got to hurt.

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2019, 06:46:57 pm »
If you don't they will.  Demography is destiny.

That's right.

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2019, 08:00:34 pm »
If you don't they will.  Demography is destiny.

That's only if you define the tribal "they" in terms of race.   If you define the tribe as "American",  does it matter whether the Americans are white, black or brown? 
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2019, 10:34:20 pm »
That's only if you define the tribal "they" in terms of race.   If you define the tribe as "American",  does it matter whether the Americans are white, black or brown?

Maybe it depends on how "they" define themselves. Hyphenated Americans.
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's advice to women: 'Don't have children'
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2019, 10:54:20 pm »
I'm sure her children and grandchildren can appreciate her statement.  *****rollingeyes*****
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