Kushner Reveals Immigration Reform Plan

[Sanguine]

It may be annoying, but it is appropriate.  (Didn't read the rest of your comment, so nothing to add.)

Correction, @Jazzhead.  I still didn't read the rest of your comment, but do have something else to add.  VDH does a great job of describing why our culture is worth saving:

...The West, then, transcends its place of birth precisely because its ideas, although they were born in Europe, were uniquely and logically able to spread and to transcend historical ethnic, racial, and religious bonds and to re-create Westernism, or at least major elements of it, almost anywhere and among anyone....

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,360108.msg1963974/topicseen.html#new

But, be careful - you might learn something.

[QueenCatofAragon]

Our culture is doing just fine.   Mores will change,  but that doesn't mean you need to resort to alarmism to promote conservatism.   I understand you are in a fighting mood,  and think we're turning to shit, but you're wrong.

The America I live in is adapting well to women and, yes, even homosexuals, being able to live their lives to their fullest potential.   The economy is booming and everyone is benefiting .  I say promote the OPPORTUNITY culture,  not wallow in white reaction.

@Jazzhead

We’re going to get real here.  The culture is already shit, and there’s no turning back.  We live in a country and a time where two men or two women can marry.  That’s nuttery. They’re no more married than two cats, but God help you if you breathe the slightest criticism.  They will come down on you like shrieking banshees.  Which isn’t surprising—I’ve known plenty of gay men, and they’ve all had their psychological issues, usually rooted in early life circumstances shared by most of them. 

Gay marriage is about validation, nothing more.  Homosexual men are too damn promiscuous for monogamy.

I’d love to know how many tolerant liberal men are secretly grossed out by the sight of men kissing each other.  Probably the majority of them, I’d bet.  Because it IS gross.  You just don’t want to see it.  You instinctively look away.  And there’s a reason—it’s so unnatural that it goes to the core of you.  I suspect you’ve felt it.

And then there’s the whole trans issue.  These are deeply sick individuals.  On Twitter, one of them talked about having a really bad night, wishing she could just cut off her breasts.  Of course she was humored and got plenty of empathy.  Not one person suggested that she get herself to a doctor fast, before she harmed herself.  Yet, the military ban on transgenders is controversial.  A Reuters poll showed that a majority of people believe they should be able to serve, and that the armed forces should accommodate them if they want to mutilate and disfigure themselves with surgery and hormones.  The current ban is only temporary.  These extremely mentally ill people WILL serve at some point—although, in reality, the military will be serving them.  When you’re that crazy, it’s always about you.

When your culture shows you a big-ass brawny man in a dress, wig, and lipstick, with huge hands, size 13 feet, and a jaw like a cinderblock, and tells you he isn’t a man, he’s a woman because that’s what he thinks he is, and you’re supposed to agree or be shunned, your culture is shit.  Also insane, by definition. 

As for your “white reaction”, do you really not realize how ridiculous you sound?  Aren’t you white, lol?  Yeah, I know—you’re one of the good ones, right?  You live for headpats from black and Hispanic people because then your self-righteousness is validated and you feel all warm inside.

[Jazzhead]

I couldn't disagree more, @QueenCatofAragon .    I think we have problems with politics in this country, not the culture.     The American culture remains both hard working and charitable,  and most of us (unlike in many places in Europe) continue to express faith in God.   Indeed, it is that faith that leads most of us to accept and champion tolerance of our neighbors.   We have made tremendous strides in accepting women as independent and full participants in the economy.   And as for gays,  I am happy that most of us have cast off our old bigotries and are willing to see them as individuals based on the content of their characters,  not as despised "abominations".    (Transgenderism I confess I don't understand,  but I fail to see why I should be so upset about them.)   

American culture is both resilient and changing,  in my mind for the better.   What has turned to shit is American politics,  with politicians stoking tribal enmities and rejecting reconciliation and compromise.    The Dems are the worst offenders,  but I am ashamed as a Republican to see my party also led by someone keen to exploit our differences rather than promote our common values.   I subscribe to the old school view of America as a melting pot rather than a mosaic,  and if you're the same way,  then blame selfish politicians and the tribal-obsessed media,  not the culture.   

[Right_in_Virginia]

@Jazzhead

…  As for your “white reaction”, do you really not realize how ridiculous you sound?  Aren’t you white, lol?  Yeah, I know—you’re one of the good ones, right?  You live for headpats from black and Hispanic people because then your self-righteousness is validated and you feel all warm inside. 

I nominate this for one of the top three posts on the forum for the week of April 28.  [The rest of the post was good, too.]

[Jazzhead]

@Jazzhead

 Aren’t you white, lol? 

Sure,  I'm white.  But I'm not a member of the white tribe.  I'm an American, and I'm colorblind.   

The traditional, conservative American ideal is that of the melting pot - we come here from all over,  but we subsume our tribal identities in the larger community of Americans. 

Yet you insist I "think white",  and accuse me (with condescension)  that I'm looking for "headpats" from members of other tribes.   

Sorry,  I'm American.   I wasn't raised to think that way.   

[QueenCatofAragon]

I couldn't disagree more, @QueenCatofAragon .    I think we have problems with politics in this country, not the culture.     The American culture remains both hard working and charitable,  and most of us (unlike in many places in Europe) continue to express faith in God.   Indeed, it is that faith that leads most of us to accept and champion tolerance of our neighbors.

 

The kind of faith you espouse has no teeth, no guts, and no substance, because it's unable to recognize the difference between healthy and sick.  It's a part of the reason that our culture is sick. You shouldn't be surprised when the rest of us who don't happen to attend Unitarian services recognize crazy for what it is.

We have made tremendous strides in accepting women as independent and full participants in the economy.

Lol, do what?  I never had a single problem with "being accepted as an independent full participant."  I got a job and went to work, that's all there was to it.  Feminism never had anything to do with it.  Leftists never did a thing for me.

And as for gays,  I am happy that most of us have cast off our old bigotries and are willing to see them as individuals based on the content of their characters,  not as despised "abominations". 

There you go with the old trope of branding anyone a bigot who doesn't go wholesale for any and all kind of insanity the left decides is suddenly normal.  Nobody cares and it isn't going to shut anybody up. 

I want to note that you're the one who described homosexuals as "despised".  I wonder how much projection is involved in that.

(Transgenderism I confess I don't understand,  but I fail to see why I should be so upset about them.)

You should be able to recognize mental illness without much trouble.  The fact that you can't is, again, part of the mess the country finds itself in.

American culture is both resilient and changing,  in my mind for the better.   What has turned to shit is American politics,  with politicians stoking tribal enmities and rejecting reconciliation and compromise.    The Dems are the worst offenders,  but I am ashamed as a Republican to see my party also led by someone keen to exploit our differences rather than promote our common values.   I subscribe to the old school view of America as a melting pot rather than a mosaic,  and if you're the same way,  then blame selfish politicians and the tribal-obsessed media,  not the culture.

It's such an old-school view that it's completely out of date.  There is no melting pot.  People coming here now want to maintain their separateness while taking advantage of what the country has to offer them.  And society thinks that's just fine because multiculturalism is our strength.  Only it isn't.  It weakens us and promotes discord.

@Jazzhead

[QueenCatofAragon]

I nominate this for one of the top three posts on the forum for the week of April 28.  [The rest of the post was good, too.]

@Right_in_Virginia

Holy crap, thanks!  I appreciate that, seriously.

[QueenCatofAragon]

Sure,  I'm white.  But I'm not a member of the white tribe.  I'm an American, and I'm colorblind.   

The traditional, conservative American ideal is that of the melting pot - we come here from all over,  but we subsume our tribal identities in the larger community of Americans. 

Yet you insist I "think white",  and accuse me (with condescension)  that I'm looking for "headpats" from members of other tribes.   

Sorry,  I'm American.   I wasn't raised to think that way.   

Lol, @Jazzhead, these platitudes.  "I'm colorblind."  I bet you tiptoe around black people and treat them like they're made of glass, don't you.

I insist you think white?  What is that, exactly?  Can you offer some details?  While you're at it, what is a white reaction?  It seems to me you characterize lots of things by skin color.

You don't need to preach to me about race relations.  I live in a rural village outside a city of some 80K people, with a lot of farmers and rednecks, and some of them are black.  We're just all friends here, and we've never had a single racial incident or riot or anything like that.  Can you say the same?

[GtHawk]

The jobs are there.  I see fast food restaurants all over with signs up wanting to hire.   Americans need to stop whining, stop blaming others, and act like the kinds of punctual, hard-working, dedicated folks that employers want to hire. 

I run into recent immigrants from all walks of life,  and talking to them makes it obvious why employers seek out their services.   They are strivers, unlike too many Americans who have lost the sort of work ethic that used to define our "culture" of self-reliance and initiative.   Give me any day an immigrant who appreciates the opportunities that America provides,  over the lazy whiners who complain they can't get jobs that suit their needs in this historic, booming economy.       

Yes fast food operations are always hiring, but the English speaking kids are made so uncomfortable by the Hispanics they rarely stay past training, I ran Mickey D's for over two decades and saw and lived with the change from English speaking to Hispanic and how they treated any English speaking kid I hired. That hasn't changed, I have nephews and nieces that have told me what goes on today.

I have no problem with immigrants, I am first generation, I have a huge problem with illegal imimigrants and their defenders and find it interesting that you seem to not see that distinction, same as democrats. My parents spent their senior years in Fallbrook, CA which they din't realize was right on the path illegals took up from Mexico, and there was unending thefts, property damage and physical assaults from these immigrants. What we are getting with the illegals for the most part are the uneducated, illiterate, unskilled that their own counties have no use for but know that the bleeding hearts and democrats will give them benefits that our own citizens can't get. And no matter how much manure you spread that is just plain wrong!

[GtHawk]

Sure,  I'm white.  But I'm not a member of the white tribe.  I'm an American, and I'm colorblind.   

The traditional, conservative American ideal is that of the melting pot - we come here from all over,  but we subsume our tribal identities in the larger community of Americans. 

Yet you insist I "think white",  and accuse me (with condescension)  that I'm looking for "headpats" from members of other tribes.   

Sorry,  I'm American.   I wasn't raised to think that way.   

Maybe you should look a little closer at these 'immigrants' you want us to take in with no limit, because they by and large aren't coming here to be Americans, they aren't part of Americas melting pot and don't want to be, they are and continue to hold the identity of Mexican, Honduran, Guatemalan or wherever they came from. They do not assimilate, and part of that is the democrats plan to keep us divided, people don't have to learn English to get by in America, we bend over backwards to support God knows how many languages at the DMV, Social Security, Schools. My grandparents followed my parents to America, none of them spoke a word of English when they arrived but they all learned, even My grandfather who was in his late fifties and never saw the inside of school learned English. When I was a small child no teachers in school pandered to those of us who were not from English speaking households, you were taught in English so you learned in English. So that traditional American melting pot ideal you were raised with? It reall doesn't exist any more.

[Jazzhead]

A few points:

1.  I don't "defend" illegals,  but neither do I demonize them.  They are rational actors,  seeking opportunities and responding to demand for their services.

2.  I do not want to take in immigrants "with no limit".   Is that how you argue, with falsehoods?  I want the border secured, and immigration controlled,  in order to best serve the economy.   

3.   If you don't like illegals taking low skill jobs,  then create legal means for employers to get the help they need.  Isn't that common sense?

4.   Kushner's plan is deficient because it plays to the kulturekampf priorities of Trump's base, not the larger interests of the American middle class.   That middle class wants tech jobs, not unskilled labor.   Yet Kushner wants to reduce blue collar immigration,  and instead let aspiring Americans compete with Chinese on H1 visas.    That's bass-ackward,  I say.

5.   Immigration policy shouldn't be based on preserving the "culture",  but citizenship policy should.   Last I looked,  non-citizens can't vote,  and folks who want to become citizens must demonstrate indicia of assimilation.   

[Sanguine]

A few points:

1.  I don't "defend" illegals'
, but neither do I demonize them.  They are rational actors,  seeking opportunities and responding to demand for their services.

2.  I do not want to take in immigrants "with no limit".   Is that how you argue, with falsehoods?  I want immigration controlled,  in order to best serve the economy.   

3.   If you don't like illegals taking low skill jobs,  then create legal means for employers to get the help they need.   Kushner's plan is deficient because it plays to the kulturekampf priorities of Trump's base, not the larger interests of the American middle class.   That middle class wants tech jobs, not unskilled labor.   Yet Kushner wants to reduce blue collar immigration,  and instead let aspiring Americans compete with Chinese on.H1 visas.    That's bass-ackward,  I say.

You refuse to learn anything. Keep listening to those voices in your head, but recognize that they are in your head - they do not exist in reality.

[Jazzhead]

You refuse to learn anything. Keep listening to those voices in your head, but recognize that they are in your head - they do not exist in reality.

Again, thanks for the bump.

[Sanguine]

Again, thanks for the bump.

[Jazzhead]

 

[Elderberry]

I would have to say that the Melting Pot is still in work. It just takes longer with some than others. I am white and my wife is now a dual citizen, Mexican and U.S.. She was from a family of 14. She grew up in Reynosa MX and came to Texas when she was 14. Most of her siblings, her parents, and an uncle have lived in Texas for many years now. None are on the public dole. Many have college degrees, some are auto mechanics, refinery workers, electronics assemblers, like most any family. I would say that all have assimilated to some extent. Almost all of them at some point in their lives would have been considered Illegal Aliens. Not anymore, but I'm sad to admit that I have a couple of SILs that have been here over 25 years and have never gotten their papers. It made it difficult for me when it came time for my Secret Clearance reviews when they wanted me to document every contact I have made with foreign nationals and every time I've left the country. I just refused and told them it was just Family and I got my clearance extended. So for what I've experienced, the Melting Pot is still in action.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

There is no such thing as a job Americans won't do.  Anyone who makes such a claim has absolutely no knowledge of economics, and has just proven it beyond any doubt.

Anyone who has taken even the most basic econ class past about week two will be familiar with the way artificial price controls distort markets and lead to inefficiency.  For example, a minimum wage above the natural equilibrium leads to a surplus of supply of unskilled labor and a shortage of demand for unskilled labor.  The exact same concept holds true for turning a blind eye to illegal labor, effectively creating an artificially low wage.  At some point, it's not that Americans won't do the job, it's just that they get a better deal going on the dole than competing with illegals.

Of course, as long as we can continue to print money with no (immediate) cost, it's not Americans that get screwed by illegal immigration, it's those who were willing to wait their turn and play by the rules that get screwed by the illegals. 

[libertybele]

Its a relief to see an 'immigration reform plan' that actually deals with reforming the immigration system and not merely offering normalization to illegals. That may be next, but it wasn't mentioned here.

Exactly.  The one thing that stood out as a red flag was no mention of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.  What is going to be done with those illegally entering or who have already entered ILLEGALLY? 

DEPORTATION is necessary!!

[Sanguine]

Revel in your ignorance.

[Jazzhead]

I would have to say that the Melting Pot is still in work. It just takes longer with some than others. I am white and my wife is now a dual citizen, Mexican and U.S.. She was from a family of 14. She grew up in Reynosa MX and came to Texas when she was 14. Most of her siblings, her parents, and an uncle have lived in Texas for many years now. None are on the public dole. Many have college degrees, some are auto mechanics, refinery workers, electronics assemblers, like most any family. I would say that all have assimilated to some extent. Almost all of them at some point in their lives would have been considered Illegal Aliens. Not anymore, but I'm sad to admit that I have a couple of SILs that have been here over 25 years and have never gotten their papers. It made it difficult for me when it came time for my Secret Clearance reviews when they wanted me to document every contact I have made with foreign nationals and every time I've left the country. I just refused and told them it was just Family and I got my clearance extended. So for what I've experienced, the Melting Pot is still in action.

Thanks for a constructive contribution to this thread.   Hispanic immigrants contribute positively to the economy and, like other immigrant communities before them,  learn English and assimilate.    I bow to no one in my disgust with the Dems' obsession with division and identity politics,  and note that Trump exploits prejudices in a similar manner.   But America is incredibly resilient to change because it continues to reward hard work and self-determination.   And to succeed, it is rational to assimilate.   

[skeeter]

Yes fast food operations are always hiring, but the English speaking kids are made so uncomfortable by the Hispanics they rarely stay past training, I ran Mickey D's for over two decades and saw and lived with the change from English speaking to Hispanic and how they treated any English speaking kid I hired. That hasn't changed, I have nephews and nieces that have told me what goes on today.

Incidentally I was a waiter in a high end Mexican restaurant 35 years ago and the same was true then. Immigrant competition for these jobs goes way past ‘I’ll work the hardest’. The recently arrived hispanics that made up the majority of employees were an extremely tribal lot and downright unfriendly to anyone outside their group - they did not want anyone else there. I could tell you some stories.

[Sanguine]

Incidentally I was a waiter in a high end Mexican restaurant 35 years ago and the same was true then. Immigrant competition for these jobs goes way past ‘I’ll work the hardest’. The recently arrived hispanics that made up the majority of employees were an extremely tribal lot and downright unfriendly to anyone outside their group - they did not want anyone else there. I could tell you some stories.

But, it's ok, because their tribe is better than the fat, lazy American tribe.   

[libertybele]

@Jazzhead

We’re going to get real here.  The culture is already shit, and there’s no turning back.  We live in a country and a time where two men or two women can marry.  That’s nuttery. They’re no more married than two cats, but God help you if you breathe the slightest criticism.  They will come down on you like shrieking banshees.  Which isn’t surprising—I’ve known plenty of gay men, and they’ve all had their psychological issues, usually rooted in early life circumstances shared by most of them. 

Gay marriage is about validation, nothing more.  Homosexual men are too damn promiscuous for monogamy.

I’d love to know how many tolerant liberal men are secretly grossed out by the sight of men kissing each other.  Probably the majority of them, I’d bet.  Because it IS gross.  You just don’t want to see it.  You instinctively look away.  And there’s a reason—it’s so unnatural that it goes to the core of you.  I suspect you’ve felt it.

And then there’s the whole trans issue.  These are deeply sick individuals.  On Twitter, one of them talked about having a really bad night, wishing she could just cut off her breasts.  Of course she was humored and got plenty of empathy.  Not one person suggested that she get herself to a doctor fast, before she harmed herself.  Yet, the military ban on transgenders is controversial.  A Reuters poll showed that a majority of people believe they should be able to serve, and that the armed forces should accommodate them if they want to mutilate and disfigure themselves with surgery and hormones.  The current ban is only temporary.  These extremely mentally ill people WILL serve at some point—although, in reality, the military will be serving them.  When you’re that crazy, it’s always about you.

When your culture shows you a big-ass brawny man in a dress, wig, and lipstick, with huge hands, size 13 feet, and a jaw like a cinderblock, and tells you he isn’t a man, he’s a woman because that’s what he thinks he is, and you’re supposed to agree or be shunned, your culture is shit.  Also insane, by definition. 

As for your “white reaction”, do you really not realize how ridiculous you sound?  Aren’t you white, lol?  Yeah, I know—you’re one of the good ones, right?  You live for headpats from black and Hispanic people because then your self-righteousness is validated and you feel all warm inside.

Great post and hopefully a dose of reality was sent.

[libertybele]

Thanks for a constructive contribution to this thread.   Hispanic immigrants contribute positively to the economy and, like other immigrant communities before them,  learn English and assimilate.    I bow to no one in my disgust with the Dems' obsession with division and identity politics,  and note that Trump exploits prejudices in a similar manner.   But America is incredibly resilient to change because it continues to reward hard work and self-determination.   And to succeed, it is rational to assimilate.   

Sorry, @ Jazzhead, but what you are spewing and expect me to believe is absolute b.s.!

[GtHawk]

Sorry, @ Jazzhead, but what you are spewing and expect me to believe is absolute b.s.!

@libertybele Not sure why, but every time I read @Jazzhead posts on immigration I feel like their coming off this mountain, especially with constant equivocation of legal and illegal immigrants of legal.