Author Topic: President Trump's Rumored Potential Border Wall Deal Sounds Like Disastrous 1986 Immigration Comprom  (Read 18531 times)

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Offline DB

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@EdJames

You have it right, he is giving only "temporary" extensions and that is why Dems will not agree.  He is giving them a small bit of the carrot that will go away in the near future.

I have a problem, and I don't see this as Dem or Republican, with sending children, no matter their age now, back to a country they do not know as they were brought here as children.

A number of you will jump on me about the children brought here against their will, but I don't see this as a "political" problem.  Consider yourself if you were taken, when a child, to another country and you grew up in this new country, your "world", your ties to your life are in this present world; it is all you know - I see it as inhumane to send you or one of these people to a new world where they have nothing.

It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?

If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.

It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.

If the parents steal a great sum of money and give it to their children and the children become accustom to living with this great sum of money you're essentially saying the money can't be taken back later, money that wasn't theirs to begin with, when the parents are caught for what they did earlier.

Crime causes injury to innocence that can't be fixed. It is the nature of crime and why we have laws to try to prevent it. The parent's crime is causing injury to their children. Crime has victims. If you unknowingly buy stolen property you still have to return it when it is discovered that it was stolen and you become a victim too of getting cheated. In this case it is stolen citizenship and allowing them to keep their ill gotten gains.

Only if you stop rewarding people who cheat including those who benefited from it will you actually stop inviting people to get into this situation in the first place. If the consequences are devastating to their children they'll think twice about trying to cheat for their benefit.

The primary moral issue here is the people who setup a system that rewards people for breaking our laws. It encourages people to do the wrong thing making a mockery of our laws. Just like Obama and his train loads of unaccompanied minors. Obama signaled that we would allow them in bypassing immigration law and everyone else who was standing in line going about it legally. And so they came in great numbers completely circumventing our laws spreading disease and crime.

The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 10:06:01 pm by DB »

Offline corbe

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No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline libertybele

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It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?

If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.

It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.

If the parents steal a great sum of money and give it to their children and the children become accustom to living with this great sum of money you're essentially saying the money can't be taken back later, money that wasn't theirs to begin with, when the parents are caught for what they did earlier.

Crime causes injury to innocence that can't be fixed. It is the nature of crime and why we have laws to try to prevent it. The parent's crime is causing injury to their children. Crime has victims. If you unknowingly buy stolen property you still have to return it when it is discovered that it was stolen and you become a victim too of getting cheated. In this case it is stolen citizenship and allowing them to keep their ill gotten gains.

Only if you stop rewarding people who cheat including those who benefited from it will you actually stop inviting people to get into this situation in the first place. If the consequences are devastating to their children they'll think twice about trying to cheat for their benefit.

The primary moral issue here is the people who setup a system that rewards people for breaking our laws. It encourages people to do the wrong thing making a mockery of our laws. Just like Obama and his train loads of unaccompanied minors. Obama signaled that we would allow them in bypassing immigration law and everyone else who was standing in line going about it legally. And so they came in great numbers completely circumventing our laws spreading disease and crime.

The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.

 :amen:   :patriot:
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?

If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.

It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.

If the parents steal a great sum of money and give it to their children and the children become accustom to living with this great sum of money you're essentially saying the money can't be taken back later, money that wasn't theirs to begin with, when the parents are caught for what they did earlier.

Crime causes injury to innocence that can't be fixed. It is the nature of crime and why we have laws to try to prevent it. The parent's crime is causing injury to their children. Crime has victims. If you unknowingly buy stolen property you still have to return it when it is discovered that it was stolen and you become a victim too of getting cheated. In this case it is stolen citizenship and allowing them to keep their ill gotten gains.

Only if you stop rewarding people who cheat including those who benefited from it will you actually stop inviting people to get into this situation in the first place. If the consequences are devastating to their children they'll think twice about trying to cheat for their benefit.

The primary moral issue here is the people who setup a system that rewards people for breaking our laws. It encourages people to do the wrong thing making a mockery of our laws. Just like Obama and his train loads of unaccompanied minors. Obama signaled that we would allow them in bypassing immigration law and everyone else who was standing in line going about it legally. And so they came in great numbers completely circumventing our laws spreading disease and crime.

The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.

Thank you.  Best post today.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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@EdJames

You have it right, he is giving only "temporary" extensions and that is why Dems will not agree.  He is giving them a small bit of the carrot that will go away in the near future.

I have a problem, and I don't see this as Dem or Republican, with sending children, no matter their age now, back to a country they do not know as they were brought here as children.

Do you have a problem with illegal immigrants bringing children from the only country they know here?

A number of you will jump on me about the children brought here against their will, but I don't see this as a "political" problem.  Consider yourself if you were taken, when a child, to another country and you grew up in this new country, your "world", your ties to your life are in this present world; it is all you know - I see it as inhumane to send you or one of these people to a new world where they have nothing.

These "parents" who bring their children thousands of miles outside their country expose them to the very worst criminals there are.  They are giving their young daughters birth control because one out of three are raped on the way.  Then there is extortion and human trafficking.  And the dangers of trucking these children through the desert.  Most of them will admit that it is for better paying jobs.

Are you outraged at these illegal immigrants dragging their children along because they know they can  get better pay and benefits with the children?

And if you are then you should support sending these illegal immigrant parents home.  None of these parents should be allowed to stay.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 10:26:07 pm by Chosen Daughter »
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Online Hoodat

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And if you are then you should support sending these illegal immigrant parents home.  None of these parents should be allowed to stay.

Word.  And that goes even if their kids are deemed US citizens for being born on US soil.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Online Hoodat

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It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?

If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.

It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.

Exactly.  And 'free stuff' is a heck of an incentive which we offer.  These migrants being interviewed during their trek across Mexico openly admit that.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Exactly.  And 'free stuff' is a heck of an incentive which we offer.  These migrants being interviewed during their trek across Mexico openly admit that.

Yes they do.  It saddens me that Republicans take up these liberal talking points.  We should be condemning these people for forcing their children to leave the only homeland they know.  To make thousands of miles trek exposing them to dangers most parents would never expose their children to.  It is because of birthright citizenship.  Social benefits.  Better paying jobs.

Honduras jobs:

https://www.indeed.com/q-Honduras-jobs.html

World Bank data on jobs in Honduras.

http://datatopics.worldbank.org/jobs/country/honduras

Honduras minimum wage rate 2019

https://www.minimum-wage.org/international/honduras

« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 11:28:32 pm by Chosen Daughter »
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Emjay

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Yes they do.  It saddens me that Republicans take up these liberal talking points.  We should be condemning these people for forcing their children to leave the only homeland they know.  To make thousands of miles trek exposing them to dangers most parents would never expose their children to.  It is because of birthright citizenship.  Social benefits.  Better paying jobs.

Honduras jobs:

https://www.indeed.com/q-Honduras-jobs.html

World Bank data on jobs in Honduras.

http://datatopics.worldbank.org/jobs/country/honduras

Honduras minimum wage rate 2019

https://www.minimum-wage.org/international/honduras

The DACA 'kids' are a problem that was created a while back by a disinterested government.  They are here and not that huge of a problem.

A far bigger problem is this continued influx of illegals.  Once we get that stopped, we can deal with DACA in a sensible and compassionate way.

There are people now headed to the border clutching children as photo ops and endangering them.  It saddens me that we are allowing this to happen by refusing to protect our borders once and for all.

Try to get your priorities straight.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Exactly.  And 'free stuff' is a heck of an incentive which we offer.  These migrants being interviewed during their trek across Mexico openly admit that.

Here in Washington people regularly come from Canada to shop because they get more for the money.  That is exactly what these people are doing from Central America.  Of course our pay rates are higher for their low wage jobs.  They come because they don't have to pay their own ways.  They can take our jobs and send the money home.  How nice they don't have to pay for food or health, dental.  And they don't have to pay for schooling.  See article below.  Thus they can get educations for their teenagers at US taxpayer expense.  Obviously they have significantly increased their wages by doing this and can live better than the average Joe when they go back.



After a 1954 banana strike, trade unions emerged as a major force in Honduran politics. In 1999, with 14 percent of its  labor force  organized, Honduras was the most heavily unionized country in Central America. Still, the strength of unions diminished in the 1990s. Despite the labor movement's opposition to privatization, the Flores administration remained committed to economic reforms that would give up state-owned companies to the private sector, while union calls for higher wages were ignored.

While the law in Honduras grants workers the right to form and join unions, there have been cases reported of employers seeking to disrupt union activities by harassing or firing union sympathizers. As of 1999, the labor court in Honduras was considering numerous appeals by workers who claimed to have been fired by their companies for engaging in union activities.

Forced labor is forbidden by law, but there have been some cases reported of forced overtime in the maquila sector, particularly for women. Child labor is prohibited as well. Children under 14 years old are barred from the workforce, even if they have parental permission to work. Allowing a child to work illegally is punishable by up to 5 years in prison; however, frequent violations occur in rural districts. According to a human rights report issued in 1999 by the U.S. State Department, an estimated 350,000 children in Honduras work illegally.

The labor force in Honduras is mostly unskilled. The general level of education is low and training is limited. Children between ages 7-13 receive free, compulsory education, but in order to continue after the age of 13 tuition is required. A majority of families cannot afford to pay for education, and instead of continuing with school, most children move into the labor force after they turn 14. In 1999, out of 841,236 children aged 15 to 19, only 187,561 were receiving regular schooling. The illiteracy rate in Honduras is around 19 percent. Public spending on education, traditionally low in Honduras, has declined in recent years, falling to 4.1 percent of the gross domestic product in 1999.

In January 1998 the average minimum wage in Honduras was raised 17 percent. In 1999 it was hiked another 25 percent, and in 2000, the wage was raised again, this time by 8 percent. The wage varies from sector to sector, the lowest being US$2.12 a day in non-export agriculture. The highest minimum wage is paid in the export sector, where workers receive at least $3.47 a day. Even the highest minimum wage is insufficient to provide a standard of living over the poverty line.

The maximum workday is 8 hours. Workers cannot be required to work more than 44 hours in a week, and they must be given at least one 24-hour rest period every 8 days. The labor code stipulates that workers be given 10 days of paid vacation after 1 year of work, and 20 days after 4 years of work. These laws, however, are often ignored. Demand for jobs is so high that workers cannot afford to complain.


Read more: https://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Americas/Honduras-WORKING-CONDITIONS.html#ixzz5dC4BYlmi

List of minimum wages per country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 12:40:27 am by Chosen Daughter »
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline libertybele

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The DACA 'kids' are a problem that was created a while back by a disinterested government.  They are here and not that huge of a problem.

A far bigger problem is this continued influx of illegals.  Once we get that stopped, we can deal with DACA in a sensible and compassionate way.

There are people now headed to the border clutching children as photo ops and endangering them.  It saddens me that we are allowing this to happen by refusing to protect our borders once and for all.
Try to get your priorities straight.

Oh, for crying out loud @Emjay, no one is promoting not protecting our borders nor is anyone prioritizing DACA. DACA is Trump's supposed bargaining chip right now, of which I don't agree with.

@DB hit the nail on the head "The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite."
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Emjay

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Oh, for crying out loud @Emjay, no one is promoting not protecting our borders nor is anyone prioritizing DACA. DACA is Trump's supposed bargaining chip right now, of which I don't agree with.

@DB hit the nail on the head "The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite."

Look.  Trump cannot get the support for border control right now without offering something.

He offered a 3 year extension of DACA.

We already have DACA so what do we have to lose if this gets this bill passed,  and gets a start to border security.

If people remain intractable about giving anything, even something as harmless as a relatively short extension to an existing program, how can we expect anything but a stalemate?

I wish we had a magic wand, but I don't see one.  You and your little buddy offer nothing constructive but enjoy venting and whining.

@libertybele @Chosen Daughter
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Offline libertybele

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Look.  Trump cannot get the support for border control right now without offering something.

He offered a 3 year extension of DACA.

We already have DACA so what do we have to lose if this gets this bill passed,  and gets a start to border security.

If people remain intractable about giving anything, even something as harmless as a relatively short extension to an existing program, how can we expect anything but a stalemate?

I wish we had a magic wand, but I don't see one.  You and your little buddy offer nothing constructive but enjoy venting and whining.

@libertybele @Chosen Daughter

This warrants reposting from another thread:

You are correct, I don't care to converse with you anymore as you refuse to acknowledge what WILL happen as a result of granting amnesty in any way shape or form.

Moving on.  Peace.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 12:06:41 am by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Online Hoodat

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I wish we had a magic wand, but I don't see one.  You and your little buddy offer nothing constructive but enjoy venting and whining.

@libertybele @Chosen Daughter

Here's something constructive.  Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings.  Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders.  And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!

Trump is in a position to do all three.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Emjay

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Good post @Emjay.

Failing to support Trump's efforts to reach a deal on this matter is helping nobody.
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Online roamer_1

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It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?

If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.

It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.

If the parents steal a great sum of money and give it to their children and the children become accustom to living with this great sum of money you're essentially saying the money can't be taken back later, money that wasn't theirs to begin with, when the parents are caught for what they did earlier.

Crime causes injury to innocence that can't be fixed. It is the nature of crime and why we have laws to try to prevent it. The parent's crime is causing injury to their children. Crime has victims. If you unknowingly buy stolen property you still have to return it when it is discovered that it was stolen and you become a victim too of getting cheated. In this case it is stolen citizenship and allowing them to keep their ill gotten gains.

Only if you stop rewarding people who cheat including those who benefited from it will you actually stop inviting people to get into this situation in the first place. If the consequences are devastating to their children they'll think twice about trying to cheat for their benefit.

The primary moral issue here is the people who setup a system that rewards people for breaking our laws. It encourages people to do the wrong thing making a mockery of our laws. Just like Obama and his train loads of unaccompanied minors. Obama signaled that we would allow them in bypassing immigration law and everyone else who was standing in line going about it legally. And so they came in great numbers completely circumventing our laws spreading disease and crime.

The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.

QFT.

That sir, was brilliant.
 :beer:

Offline Emjay

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QFT.

That sir, was brilliant.
 :beer:

It was an interesting essay on morality and contained a lot of truth but no practical solutions and it was something we all already knew.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline libertybele

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Here's something constructive.  Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings.  Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders.  And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!

Trump is in a position to do all three
.

 :patriot: 888high58888
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Here's something constructive.  Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings.  Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders.  And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!

Trump is in a position to do all three.

Truth.   :hands:
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Here's something constructive.  Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings.  Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders.  And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!

Trump is in a position to do all three.

The only thing the President needs is Congress.....other than this, it's a cakewalk. 

Offline Emjay

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The only thing the President needs is Congress.....other than this, it's a cakewalk.

It's amazing how many people who don't even want Trump to be President, now want him to be a dictator.
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Online Right_in_Virginia

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... The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite. 

You've encapsulated the President's position in one sentence @DB   Now all you have to do is convince the demonrats.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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It's amazing how many people who don't even want Trump to be President, now want him to be a dictator.

The spin is making me dizzy @Emjay    :laugh:

Online Hoodat

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The only thing the President needs is Congress.....other than this, it's a cakewalk.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.  He does not need Congress on this.  HE is the Chief Executive.  HE is in control of the Executive branch of government.  HE is the one ultimately responsible for releasing amnesty applicants.  HE is the one ultimately responsible for prosecuting repeat invaders.  And HE ultimately is reponsible for handing out free shit.  Congress only passes the laws.  They don't get to decide whether they are enforced.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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It's amazing how many people who don't even want Trump to be President, now want him to be a dictator.

It's amazing how people on this forum openly lie about what other posters want.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-