Author Topic: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship  (Read 6513 times)

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Offline edpc

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2018, 03:31:40 pm »
Trump does exactly what the NeverTrumper want done and still they bitch.


Really?  He signed legislation that was passed by two thirds of Congress and is now being submitted for ratification by the state’s?  I must’ve missed that.  Perhaps it’s a package deal with the term limits amendment he was going to get through in his first 100 days.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2018, 03:34:16 pm »
Really?  He signed legislation that was passed by two thirds of Congress and is now being submitted for ratification by the state’s?  I must’ve missed that.  Perhaps it’s a package deal with the term limits amendment he was going to get through in his first 100 days.

Like the liberal Left, all that matters is the intention.

Not the results.

All you need to know is that 'He Fights!'


And plays 13th dimensional underwater chess that us simpletons whom he does not need nor want to support him, cannot understand or comprehend.
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Offline austingirl

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2018, 03:34:54 pm »
If he can pull this off (as a permanent fix) , this wil be his greatest and most long lasting achievement.  As taxpayers we should revolt on having to subisidize anchor babies.

Thank you Mr. President.

This move could save the Republic. Of course it will be challenged by the left, but at least the discussion has started. I am fully in support of this.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2018, 03:40:33 pm »

Really?  He signed legislation that was passed by two thirds of Congress and is now being submitted for ratification by the state’s?  I must’ve missed that.  Perhaps it’s a package deal with the term limits amendment he was going to get through in his first 100 days.

Really?  That's what SCOTUS needs to issue a binding ruling? 

Offline musiclady

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2018, 03:40:48 pm »

Really?  He signed legislation that was passed by two thirds of Congress and is now being submitted for ratification by the state’s?  I must’ve missed that.  Perhaps it’s a package deal with the term limits amendment he was going to get through in his first 100 days.

The point is that it does no good because it can (and will) be rescinded.

I agree with those who have said that it's good to get the conversation started again, but to rejoice that it is an "accomplishment" is merely wishful thinking not based on reality.
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Offline austingirl

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2018, 03:41:14 pm »
Just saw on Fox Business that Lindsey Graham is introducing a bill in Congress to rescind birthright citizenship. :hands:
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2018, 03:42:11 pm »
Just saw on Fox Business that Lindsey Graham is introducing a bill in Congress to rescind birthright citizenship. :hands:

Now THAT is a step in the right direction.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Offline aligncare

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2018, 03:44:23 pm »
Trump is starting the process with an EO, it goes to a conservative SC where we have a descent chance of winning. The 14th was meant to give citizenship to former slaves not Chinese tourists.

The only country in the world where tourists can go home with a souvenir of an American baby. Cool.

Imagine if other countries did the same? Come back from France with a French baby, from Morocco with a Moroccan daughter...

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2018, 03:49:04 pm »
Just saw on Fox Business that Lindsey Graham is introducing a bill in Congress to rescind birthright citizenship. :hands:

Well, son of a gun.  I'm shocked.  Happily though.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2018, 03:52:22 pm »
NOW we're getting somewhere.

I've written numerous posts here at the Briefingroom that the only way to resolve the "birthright citizenship issue" would be to create a challenge that "forces it upward" into the Supreme Court for a definitive ruling.

It appears that the administration has finally taken my advice to them!

Of course, there's no way right now to know how the Court will decide. Remember the important concept of "stare decisis" (stand by things decided). It's -possible- the Court may look at 150 years' worth of previous "public policy" on this issue, and refrain from changing that.

But they could decide that for a century-and-a-half, that the "public policy" was wrong. And throw out "birthright citizenship". (aside: I predict that if the Court tosses birthright citizenship, it will exempt all previously-born children from that ruling).

We just don't know yet.

In any case, the Court ruling is "the first step".

If the Court decides -against- "birthright citizenship", then the struggle to IMPLEMENT the decision begins -- and make no mistake, it WILL be "a fight". I sense that the administration will probably require that birth certificates issued in the United States to include the following info (if they don't already require such info):
1. Citizenship status of parents;
2. If not citizens, indication that they are legal residents; and,
3. If not citizens, info regarding their country of origin.

If this info IS NOT currently recorded on birth certificates, watch for the leftist/democrat-communist states to REFUSE to include provisions to do so.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 03:53:55 pm by Fishrrman »

Offline edpc

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2018, 03:52:35 pm »
The only country in the world where tourists can go home with a souvenir of an American baby. Cool.

Imagine if other countries did the same? Come back from France with a French baby, from Morocco with a Moroccan daughter...


Except we’re not the only country that observes jus soli.  That’s what happens when you listen to someone that has no idea what he’s talking about.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli






I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline edpc

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2018, 03:58:34 pm »
Really?  That's what SCOTUS needs to issue a binding ruling?


SCOTUS and the Executive have different responsibilities in our government.  Maybe you’ve heard.  Some of you think this is a magic wand, but it’s really just another DACA mess and a much bigger one.  If SCOTUS rules against birthright, there are suddenly millions with status issues that will have to be addressed legislatively.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 04:01:43 pm by edpc »
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline endicom

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2018, 04:00:05 pm »
This move could save the Republic. Of course it will be challenged by the left, but at least the discussion has started. I am fully in support of this.


If this forces the issue and it goes to SCOTUS then what is there to lose? The status quo leads to open borders so a status quo ruling by SCOTUS leaves us where we are. A better ruling by SCOTUS helps to close this loophole. The rest is up to Congress.




Offline Sanguine

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2018, 04:01:41 pm »

SCOTUS and the Executive have different responsibilities in our government.  Maybe you’ve heard.

Just trying to help you with your confusion. 

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2018, 04:05:24 pm »
Thing is an EO would be challenged, and if the SCOTUS ruled in favor, it opens the door for legislation.

Then again it may backfire.
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2018, 04:07:06 pm »
Just saw on Fox Business that Lindsey Graham is introducing a bill in Congress to rescind birthright citizenship. :hands:

Well I'm sure it was just a coincidence.

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2018, 04:09:31 pm »
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

Can he do that without first changing the 14th amendment?
He might need an act of Congress, but all that would need to be done is to declare those born to foreign nationals unlawfully on U.S. soil to not be "subject to the jurisdiction thereof," a necessary and proper interpretation.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2018, 04:09:36 pm »
Thing is an EO would be challenged, and if the SCOTUS ruled in favor, it opens the door for legislation.

Then again it may backfire.

But, again, if it backfires we are in the same position we started from, so no loss.

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2018, 04:09:54 pm »
Thing is an EO would be challenged, and if the SCOTUS ruled in favor, it opens the door for legislation.

Then again it may backfire.

Two Supreme Court opinions, both issued within the decade after ratification of the 14th Amendment are particularly relevant to construing the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision. Note that, because the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision did not determine the outcome in either case, the Court’s statements in both decisions are dicta, not binding holdings. But the Justices’ words should be considered authoritative insofar as they were expressed by Justices who lived through the enactment of the provision they were construing, and thus were well positioned to comprehend the meaning and intention of the words. These Court-expressed views on the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision should also be considered authoritative because the Justices were unanimous in making the statement in one case, and, in the other, the dissenters did not disagree with that particular point.
In the Slaughterhouse Cases,10 the Court wrote that “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of … citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” That is as absolute and complete a statement as can be imagined, and it would deny birthright citizenship to a child born in this country to undocumented immigrants or to a transient alien mother. Then, two years later, in Minor v. Happersett, the Court unanimously and expressly recognized the existence of “doubts” that citizenship was automatic for “children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents,” after noting that citizenship attaches only when the immigrant owes “allegiance” to this country.11 These two Supreme Court rejections of automatic birthright citizenship for anyone born in this country, without regard to the parents’ citizenship status, are supported by facts undoubtedly known to those Justices, and certainly known to us.
During the same session in which Congress approved the 14th Amendment, it had already enacted the Civil Rights Act of 1866, providing that, for a U.S.-born baby to be a citizen, the baby must “not [be] subject to any foreign power.”12 A child, although born in this country, who, after birth, returns with foreign citizen parents to, and lives in, the foreign country of which the child remains a citizen, is subject to that foreign power. Thus, that statute mandated that such U.S.-born children be denied U.S. citizenship. The record makes clear that, in considering the 14th Amendment, Congress did not repudiate the statute it had just enacted. Not even a single member introduced a bill to rescind that legislation. The absence of any attempts to walk back the statute suggests that Congress remained satisfied with that law, and that the same-session approval of the 14th Amendment did not signal any change of view.
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2018, 04:11:00 pm »
endicom wrote:
"If this forces the issue and it goes to SCOTUS then what is there to lose? The status quo leads to open borders so a status quo ruling by SCOTUS leaves us where we are. A better ruling by SCOTUS helps to close this loophole. The rest is up to Congress."

Good points.
Unlike the NT's in this forum, YOU understand.

The purpose of the executive order is not so much "to change the meaning of the Constitution", but rather TO FORCE THE ISSUE UPWARDS INTO THE SUPREME COURT.

It can never be resolved until the Court has issued a definitive ruling that addresses the issue directly.

There are two possible pathways forward from that decision:

1. The Court invalidates "birthright citizenship" (insofar as it was previously interpreted to mean by virtue of the 14th Amendment).

In this case, expect the blue leftist/democrat-communist states to resist.
Federal intervention -- and arrests of local and state officials -- may become necessary in order to enforce the decision.

2. The Court upholds birthright citizenship (as it is practiced today).
In that case, any arguments that it could be changed or redefined short of a Constitutional Amendment become moot. Again, the way forward is clear from this point.

Of course, a Constitutional Amendment that ends "birthright" (either by modifying the 14th or addressing the issue separately, hopefully defining "natural born citizen" as well) cannot pass the Congress. So... it will have to "come upward from the states" through an Article V Convention of the States. I fully support such a convention, and have no fear that the amendments that come from one will strengthen -- not weaken -- the Constitution from a conservative/traditional point of view.

Offline aligncare

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2018, 04:27:40 pm »

Except we’re not the only country that observes jus soli.  That’s what happens when you listen to someone that has no idea what he’s talking about.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

Darn it, I forgot to begin my sentence with “One of the only...”

From wiki:  “Since the Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland was enacted in 2004, no European country grants citizenship based on unconditional or near-unconditional jus soli.[8][9]”

That’s what happens when you link to Wiki.

Offline edpc

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2018, 04:57:12 pm »
Darn it, I forgot to begin my sentence with “One of the only...”

From wiki:  “Since the Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland was enacted in 2004, no European country grants citizenship based on unconditional or near-unconditional jus soli.[8][9]”

That’s what happens when you link to Wiki.


Yeah, but once you get used to all those pesky words giving you a headache, you discover a pretty long list, six paragraphs down, of nations in the Western Hemisphere that still allow it.  Maybe it’s a Monroe Doctrine thing.  I don’t know.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 04:58:06 pm by edpc »
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2018, 05:08:47 pm »
Two Supreme Court opinions, both issued within the decade after ratification of the 14th Amendment are particularly relevant to construing the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision. Note that, because the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision did not determine the outcome in either case, the Court’s statements in both decisions are dicta, not binding holdings. But the Justices’ words should be considered authoritative insofar as they were expressed by Justices who lived through the enactment of the provision they were construing, and thus were well positioned to comprehend the meaning and intention of the words. These Court-expressed views on the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision should also be considered authoritative because the Justices were unanimous in making the statement in one case, and, in the other, the dissenters did not disagree with that particular point.
In the Slaughterhouse Cases,10 the Court wrote that “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of … citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” That is as absolute and complete a statement as can be imagined, and it would deny birthright citizenship to a child born in this country to undocumented immigrants or to a transient alien mother. Then, two years later, in Minor v. Happersett, the Court unanimously and expressly recognized the existence of “doubts” that citizenship was automatic for “children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents,” after noting that citizenship attaches only when the immigrant owes “allegiance” to this country.11 These two Supreme Court rejections of automatic birthright citizenship for anyone born in this country, without regard to the parents’ citizenship status, are supported by facts undoubtedly known to those Justices, and certainly known to us.
During the same session in which Congress approved the 14th Amendment, it had already enacted the Civil Rights Act of 1866, providing that, for a U.S.-born baby to be a citizen, the baby must “not [be] subject to any foreign power.”12 A child, although born in this country, who, after birth, returns with foreign citizen parents to, and lives in, the foreign country of which the child remains a citizen, is subject to that foreign power. Thus, that statute mandated that such U.S.-born children be denied U.S. citizenship. The record makes clear that, in considering the 14th Amendment, Congress did not repudiate the statute it had just enacted. Not even a single member introduced a bill to rescind that legislation. The absence of any attempts to walk back the statute suggests that Congress remained satisfied with that law, and that the same-session approval of the 14th Amendment did not signal any change of view.

-- https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/birthright-citizenship-two-perspectives
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 05:10:56 pm by Suppressed »
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2018, 05:12:56 pm »

Yeah, but once you get used to all those pesky words giving you a headache, you discover a pretty long list, six paragraphs down, of nations in the Western Hemisphere that still allow it.  Maybe it’s a Monroe Doctrine thing.  I don’t know.

But people aren’t risking open ocean and deadly terrain crossing to just any country. No, they’re risking all that to come to and blend into the woodwork of the mother lode of social safety nets...the good old USA.

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Re: Exclusive: Trump To Terminate Birthright Citizenship
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2018, 05:25:13 pm »
Two Supreme Court opinions, both issued within the decade after ratification of the 14th Amendment are particularly relevant to construing the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision. Note that, because the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision did not determine the outcome in either case, the Court’s statements in both decisions are dicta, not binding holdings. But the Justices’ words should be considered authoritative insofar as they were expressed by Justices who lived through the enactment of the provision they were construing, and thus were well positioned to comprehend the meaning and intention of the words. These Court-expressed views on the meaning of the Birthright Citizenship provision should also be considered authoritative because the Justices were unanimous in making the statement in one case, and, in the other, the dissenters did not disagree with that particular point.
In the Slaughterhouse Cases,10 the Court wrote that “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of … citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” That is as absolute and complete a statement as can be imagined, and it would deny birthright citizenship to a child born in this country to undocumented immigrants or to a transient alien mother. Then, two years later, in Minor v. Happersett, the Court unanimously and expressly recognized the existence of “doubts” that citizenship was automatic for “children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents,” after noting that citizenship attaches only when the immigrant owes “allegiance” to this country.11 These two Supreme Court rejections of automatic birthright citizenship for anyone born in this country, without regard to the parents’ citizenship status, are supported by facts undoubtedly known to those Justices, and certainly known to us.
During the same session in which Congress approved the 14th Amendment, it had already enacted the Civil Rights Act of 1866, providing that, for a U.S.-born baby to be a citizen, the baby must “not [be] subject to any foreign power.”12 A child, although born in this country, who, after birth, returns with foreign citizen parents to, and lives in, the foreign country of which the child remains a citizen, is subject to that foreign power. Thus, that statute mandated that such U.S.-born children be denied U.S. citizenship. The record makes clear that, in considering the 14th Amendment, Congress did not repudiate the statute it had just enacted. Not even a single member introduced a bill to rescind that legislation. The absence of any attempts to walk back the statute suggests that Congress remained satisfied with that law, and that the same-session approval of the 14th Amendment did not signal any change of view.

Thanks B, good context.
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