Another Prominent Anti-Trump Republican Just Went Down In Minnesota. Here's Why This Keeps Happening

[Right_in_Virginia]

When Biblical morality was the underpinning of American society, it was a sweeter place.

Oh, how the mind does play tricks.  We were a sweeter place with slavery, voting rights discrimination, whites only water fountains, back of the bus rules, whites only schools, systemic occupational segregation, etc. @musiclady ?

[Formerly Once-Ler]

I'm thankful for men like @Maj. Bill Martin , who can disagree civilly and respond to honest responses with honest questions. 

It shouldn't be so rare.

I had intended to thank you for discussing morality with a adeptness that I have never found in my walk with Jesus.  I've never been comfortable explaining my faith.  Even conversing with my brothers and sisters.  I found this conversation insightful. 

Extending an olive branch to civil discourse starts with you...

and by that I mean us...

and if I'm being honest I means me. 

I can justify my angry words by pointing at the people who instigated it, but in the end they are my words.  I've come to know you as very well-natured woman.  More civil than I am.  I'm not surprised you would also praise @Maj. Bill Martin .  I don't know anyone who would say he was prone to hyperbole or argued dishonestly.

I hope that isn't perceived as an insult in anyway.

[INVAR]

Oh, how the mind does play tricks.  We were a sweeter place with slavery, voting rights discrimination, whites only water fountains, back of the bus rules, whites only schools, systemic occupational segregation, etc. @musiclady ?

Amazing.  That is word-for-word what the Secular Left tells us daily when they rail in disgust about what a rotten, terrible country we have always been - ESPECIALLY because of biblical morality.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Oh, how the mind does play tricks.  We were a sweeter place with slavery, voting rights discrimination, whites only water fountains, back of the bus rules, whites only schools, systemic occupational segregation, etc. @musiclady ?

Oh, how I wish Christians had led the way towards Emancipation, Women's Rights, and Civil Rights.  Ignorant post @Right_in_Virginia

[roamer_1]

Oh, how the mind does play tricks.  We were a sweeter place with slavery, voting rights discrimination, whites only water fountains, back of the bus rules, whites only schools, systemic occupational segregation, etc. @musiclady ?

Spoken like a true carpetbagger @Right_in_Virginia ... Or a Redleg. You decide.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Spoken like a true carpetbagger @Right_in_Virginia ... Or a Redleg. You decide.

Neither.  But I see you're unable to comment on the substance of my post about the "sweeter times" America lived under. It sure does appear the truth has pierced a nerve.   

[Emjay]

Neither.  But I see you're unable to comment on the substance of my post about the "sweeter times" America lived under. It sure does appear the truth has pierced a nerve.   

There is nothing more futile or useless than trying to talk sense to the people you are trying to talk sense to @Right_in_Virginia but if it's any comfort at all, I agree with you.

[INVAR]

Spoken like a true carpetbagger @Right_in_Virginia ... Or a Redleg. You decide.

Wheat and tares my friend.  The threshing is revealing them.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

That's all I get?  Christian sarcasm.  I didn't know you would deny so quickly. 
I'll regroup in the morning patriot.

[Right_in_Virginia]

There is nothing more futile or useless than trying to talk sense to the people you are trying to talk sense to @Right_in_Virginia but if it's any comfort at all, I agree with you.

Thanks @Emjay 

[Right_in_Virginia]

Wheat and tares my friend.  The threshing is revealing them.

I don't take anything from one of the high priests of the Christian Pharisees seriously.  I know Jesus' judgment of them.   

[INVAR]

I don't take anything from one of the high priests of the Christian Pharisees seriously.  I know Jesus' judgment of them.

Same exact crap I hear from the hedonists and Leftists who go berserk when scripture is used to denounce homosexual marriage, adultery and other perverted behavior.

[musiclady]

There is nothing more futile or useless than trying to talk sense to the people you are trying to talk sense to @Right_in_Virginia but if it's any comfort at all, I agree with you.

The enemy of my enemy is  my friend. @Emjay?

You agree with the snark and sarcasm against those who believe that morality in American culture is better than amorality?

It is "talking sense" to mock Christianity?  It is "talking sense" to say that times are better now when America is besieged with the amorality of the left, propagandized about homosexuality, promiscuity and self-absorbtion??

Really??  This is what you believe??

I've known you for years and I never would have guessed that you believe immorality is actually better than morality.   

[musiclady]

Oh, how I wish Christians had led the way towards Emancipation, Women's Rights, and Civil Rights.  Ignorant post @Right_in_Virginia

There is no ignorance more obvious than in those spouting anti-Christian, leftist propaganda.

[Jazzhead]

He chose poorly.

He was right then and he is right now.   The GOP is a party of ideas, not a cult of personality.   

[musiclady]

I had intended to thank you for discussing morality with a adeptness that I have never found in my walk with Jesus.  I've never been comfortable explaining my faith.  Even conversing with my brothers and sisters.  I found this conversation insightful. 

Extending an olive branch to civil discourse starts with you...

and by that I mean us...

and if I'm being honest I means me. 

I can justify my angry words by pointing at the people who instigated it, but in the end they are my words.  I've come to know you as very well-natured woman.  More civil than I am.  I'm not surprised you would also praise @Maj. Bill Martin .  I don't know anyone who would say he was prone to hyperbole or argued dishonestly.

I hope that isn't perceived as an insult in anyway.

"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with everyone." - Romans 12:18

Easy words to read, impossible to carry out, other than through the Grace of God.

That's the reason why I have the three people who do nothing but mock me for my faith on Ignore here (two permanently).  My human nature cannot read their words without reacting in anger, so I need to block their mockery.  God desires us to defend the faith, but not to get in meaningless, nasty quarrels with unbelievers or scoffers.  I'm not strong enough to withstand the assault, and give in to the temptation they deliberately put in front of me, so I try to ignore their taunts (as much as possible).

We all lose it once in a while.  That's certainly true for me.  But I have found over the years that the best way to resist temptation is to flee.

And here on this forum, that means using the Ignore feature. 

@Once-Ler

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I believe it answers it specifically.   A person who is an atheist or agnostic can have a good moral code without recognizing that there is no good apart from God.  As I mentioned earlier, we are ALL created in God's image and for all but the most severely disturbed, that comes with a conscience.

It is that God-given conscience, acknowledged or not, that gives them any sense of right and wrong they possess.

I believe we all know people who are agnostic or atheist who do have a moral code.  They just don't accept where it actually comes from.

Okay -- I see what you are saying.  I think that if an atheist or agnostic has a good moral code, even if they don't believe it comes from God, they're perfectly able to talk about it.  They may explain it rationally -- "the world would be a better place if people all acted morally, therefore it is logical to act that way", or emotionally "I just can't stand to see suffering", etc., but to them, that is no more pulling morality from the air than is faith-based morality.

In any case, I completely agree with the larger point that good religious faith is, overall, a very positive force for morality as a whole.  While some people who don't believe in God can still have a good moral code and live by it, many others cannot.  I think that in particular, raising children in faith provides best possible basis for good moral development. Even if that child later strays from faith, many of those moral teachings will remain.

As a nation, we could use a lot more of that right now than we currently have.  One place you really see the difference is in the inner cities.  It is the families and kids that still have a strong belief in God who are often the only things holding those communities together.

[musiclady]

Okay -- I see what you are saying.  I think that if an atheist or agnostic has a good moral code, even if they don't believe it comes from God, they're perfectly able to talk about it.  They may explain it rationally -- "the world would be a better place if people all acted morally, therefore it is logical to act that way", or emotionally "I just can't stand to see suffering", etc., but to them, that is no more pulling morality from the air than is faith-based morality.

In any case, I completely agree with the larger point that good religious faith is, overall, a very positive force for morality as a whole.  While some people who don't believe in God can still have a good moral code and live by it, many others cannot.  I think that in particular, raising children in faith provides best possible basis for good moral development. Even if that child later strays from faith, many of those moral teachings will remain.

As a nation, we could use a lot more of that right now than we currently have.  One place you really see the difference is in the inner cities.  It is the families and kids that still have a strong belief in God who are often the only things holding those communities together.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here other than some points in the first paragraph.

The very statement "the world would be a better place if people acted morally" is a direct affirmation of God's law.  They don't like suffering: affirmation of God's love.

So my point remains.  They may think they are coming up with the ideas from a rational, human perspective, but humanity, left on its own never behaves well (think "Lord of the Flies").  Rationally there is no basis for their statements.  It is only through God and His law and word that they believe what they do, but they don't understand that.

@roamer_1 , I think, hit the nail on the head when he talked about the influence of a civil society based on Christianity (which we used to have).  Our laws and our code of ethics is directly Biblical.  Our culture used to reflect that sense of ethics and so a kind of "peer pressure" kept many others behaving well.....but does so less and less, and what remains of that ethic is still a result of a country......... the only one in the entire world........ that was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

In the inner city, the destruction of the family and the accepted code of ethics, has resulted in chaos.  And as you say, the only people who still raise their kids with ethics and decency, are the Christians.   My husband and I attended an African-American inner city church for several months and we saw the strongest faith, most loving and strongly moral people that we have seen anywhere.  But it is only through redemption and belief in Christ that it happens, and that is becoming increasingly rare throughout the entire country.

@Maj. Bill Martin

[roamer_1]

Neither.  But I see you're unable to comment on the substance of my post about the "sweeter times" America lived under. It sure does appear the truth has pierced a nerve.   

No... not truth... Far from it... sounds more like sanctimonious liberal screeching to me, @Right_in_Virginia .

I tire quickly of feminist hags squalling incessantly in an effort to shame me for being an American, and it happens altogether too often.

No, as a matter of FACT, if it weren't for the United States and Britain and their unique and peculiar Protestant Christian ethical sense, slavery would not have been addressed *AT ALL* and would remain even yet in Western Civilization, even as it does elsewhere in this big ol world.

That is a PLUS, @Right_in_Virginia , not a negative. The USA lead the way, despite the tragic cost.

And more internally, abolitionists were spearheaded by Christian women's clubs, the same later turning their attention to suffrage... mostly Quaker and Unitarians... And the underground railway would have had no reach without Christian churches acting as sanctuary, and many Christian (and Southern) people risking all they had in order to help.

And as to suffrage, it is of little regard to me, as I am one who would dial the vote back to its original intent - That only land owners and businessmen retain the vote... People with real skin in the game. And anyone working for government (Fed, state, or county, excepting military) would have their vote prohibited as well, as would anyone receiving aid from any government source (excluding pension). So yeah, while I am a big ol meanie, and would prevent many from the right to vote, your genitalia and the color of your skin would not even factor in that cause.

But be that as it may, I would challenge you to pick the top 50 or 100 women involved in the suffrage movement and research the topic, because I will lay good odds that the vast majority of those people were Christian folk - Because the question, like with slavery, is a Christian question - with women finding succor in the person of Christ, whose treatment of his followers was equal regardless of sex or caste.

Again, suffrage would have found no traction except for the Judeo-Christian Ethic and the particular Protestant strain, that which was the root that founded all the greater concepts which became the United States, to include your right to your own opinion.

[roamer_1]

Wheat and tares my friend.  The threshing is revealing them.

 

[musiclady]

He was right then and he is right now.   The GOP is a party of ideas, not a cult of personality.  

You can put that in the past tense.  The Republican Party clearly now has no interest in ideas, let alone the conservative ones it used to be based on.

[INVAR]

@roamer_1 , I think, hit the nail on the head when he talked about the influence of a civil society based on Christianity (which we used to have).  Our laws and our code of ethics is directly Biblical.  Our culture used to reflect that sense of ethics and so a kind of "peer pressure" kept many others behaving well.....but does so less and less, and what remains of that ethic is still a result of a country......... the only one in the entire world........ that was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

You are so very correct, that I wish you could truly understand the depth of that accuracy.

I naively thought that human-beings innately yearned for liberty and righteousness, and that was a falsehood rectified firsthand when I lived in India.  A nation without any kind of foundation in biblical principles exists on a morality that stymies and bewilders.  Life is cheap and liberty is non existent outside of freedoms permitted under strict caste rules.  Dalits are not considered human and killing them if you are a higher caste member is always excused and/or covers up with help of the local corrupt police.   Bribes are an integral part of how Indian society works.   Don't pay a bribe, you don't get service or your item, even if you paid for it.   Women are only half a human being until they are married, which is nothing more than a business transaction as the brides family has to usually pay about half their wealth to the family of the groom in dowry.  Once married, she becomes a slave and moves into her in-laws home to care for the groom's family and eventually raise their children until they have enough income to rent their own place.  Even in the Christian church there, men routinely beat their wives - one elder did so because his curry was not made to his liking.  Trying to explain to them that they are to love their wives and treat them as Christ loved the church was rejected as incompatible with Indian society.

After six months I was not only sick with dysentery, I began to hate the country and people I was there to serve.  That came on because of my ignorance in their morality; the daily assaults on decency and outright brutality and the cheapness of life literally short-circuited my mind.  It freaked me out that a society could literally treat others the way they do and consider it not only okay - but a righteous duty.   Scripture tells us that the day is coming that those who kill Christians consider it a duty to God.  I had never witnessed it in living color before then.

We are indeed unique in all the world in that our society was built upon a biblical foundation and the liberty enshrined for us was dependent upon that foundation being maintained by the people.  Because when that is gone, our own society will devolve into what governs the rest of the third world, even if technology and wealth make it more devious.  Human nature in it's base form unrestrained by biblical morality, is brutal and cruel - and so is their morality.

[musiclady]

You are so very correct, that I wish you could truly understand the depth of that accuracy.

I naively thought that human-beings innately yearned for liberty and righteousness, and that was a falsehood rectified firsthand when I lived in India.  A nation without any kind of foundation in biblical principles exists on a morality that stymies and bewilders.  Life is cheap and liberty is non existent outside of freedoms permitted under strict caste rules.  Dalits are not considered human and killing them if you are a higher caste member is always excused and/or covers up with help of the local corrupt police.   Bribes are an integral part of how Indian society works.   Don't pay a bribe, you don't get service or your item, even if you paid for it.   Women are only half a human being until they are married, which is nothing more than a business transaction as the brides family has to usually pay about half their wealth to the family of the groom in dowry.  Once married, she becomes a slave and moves into her in-laws home to care for the groom's family and eventually raise their children until they have enough income to rent their own place.  Even in the Christian church there, men routinely beat their wives - one elder did so because his curry was not made to his liking.  Trying to explain to them that they are to love their wives and treat them as Christ loved the church was rejected as incompatible with Indian society.

After six months I was not only sick with dysentery, I began to hate the country and people I was there to serve.  That came on because of my ignorance in their morality; the daily assaults on decency and outright brutality and the cheapness of life literally short-circuited my mind.  It freaked me out that a society could literally treat others the way they do and consider it not only okay - but a righteous duty.   Scripture tells us that the day is coming that those who kill Christians consider it a duty to God.  I had never witnessed it in living color before then.

We are indeed unique in all the world in that our society was built upon a biblical foundation and the liberty enshrined for us was dependent upon that foundation being maintained by the people.  Because when that is gone, our own society will devolve into what governs the rest of the third world, even if technology and wealth make it more devious.  Human nature in it's base form unrestrained by biblical morality, is brutal and cruel - and so is their morality.

I was in India for only two weeks (visiting our daughter who was there for a year freeing slaves), and I saw a lot of the same issues even in that short of a time.  The filth, the disregard for life, the treatment of women and lower castes was sickening.

I was involved in a discussion here on TBR quite a while ago, arguing that it was the Hindu religion that was the basis of the horrific conditions in India, and whoever I was arguing with was screeching the same things about my "arrogance." (Ironic, because it is the opposite of arrogance to defend the God of Love, Grace and Justice).  What he was missing was information and what he was arguing with was emotion and not reason.

I think it is both ignorance and the inculcation of the left that creates the false narrative that Christian principles keep women down, defend slavery, and advocates mindless "judgmentalism."  (How often have we been judged and attacked for being "judgmental" by merely citing what is in God's word? Countless....).

America has been the country that has stood up for liberty throughout its history (and paid the price in blood for the sin of slavery) BECAUSE it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, not in spite of them.

As has been mentioned before on this thread, it was Christians who led the abolition movement and the movement for equal treatment for women BECAUSE they were looking at Scripture and the life of Jesus,  who revolutionized the treatment of others through His love.

There is no other country in the history of the world that has those principles in its foundation, in the hearts and minds of its Founders.  And as we lose those principles, we lose liberty.

Seeing Christianity belittled and bashed here makes me heartsick.

[INVAR]

I was in India for only two weeks (visiting our daughter who was there for a year freeing slaves), and I saw a lot of the same issues even in that short of a time.  The filth, the disregard for life, the treatment of women and lower castes was sickening.

Indeed.  I wish I could unsee a lot of what I see every time I go there.

I was involved in a discussion here on TBR quite a while ago, arguing that it was the Hindu religion that was the basis of the horrific conditions in India, and whoever I was arguing with was screeching the same things about my "arrogance."

That is completely correct.  I used to think that other religions held the same basic tenets as the biblical faiths, and - as we learned on 9-11 and as I saw firsthand while in India - this is not true.  India is societally, culturally and governance, is run by and through the prism of the Hindu religion - which we in the West have thought was a benign and peaceful religion.

It isn't.  It is exceedingly violent and intolerant of anything outside of their religion, in India.  Their system imposes Caste - and makes willing slaves and outcasts of more than half it's population that it considers inhuman because they exist outside the caste triangle.  What was a revelation to me is that while India is touted as being the largest Democracy on earth - it's actual governance is nearly identical to Iran's in that the Brahmin priests actually run and decide things in India - while the political warrior caste carries their dictates out.

Seeing Christianity belittled and bashed here makes me heartsick.

It just helps me realize that liberty here in this country is not coming back and that John Adams' statement regarding liberty lost, was in effect a prophecy that is being fulfilled.

This people do not want liberty or the morality that is necessary to maintain it.  They have grown to dispose and loathe those things as much as the Left has, which is why like the Left - they empower politicians and government to impose what they think they want and gravitate to cheerleading venal and crass men who say what they want to hear.

[roamer_1]

This people do not want liberty or the morality that is necessary to maintain it.  They have grown to dispose and loathe those things as much as the Left has, which is why like the Left - they empower politicians and government to impose what they think they want and gravitate to cheerleading venal and crass men who say what they want to hear.

They have been woefully and grievously misinformed. Purposefully misinformed.
And without the wherewithal to extend an argument beyond 140 char, and draw their attention for more than catch phrases and money shots, they will remain that way.

What a pity.