Author Topic: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down  (Read 3200 times)

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Offline Suppressed

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Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
By Akshat Rathi  5 hours ago


Towers of Power
REUTERS/FRANCOIS LENOIR


Nuclear power is one of the world’s biggest sources of carbon-free electricity. But it has an Achilles’ heel: it needs lots of water to operate.

That’s bad news right now. Europe’s heatwave—which led to wildfires in Greece and Sweden, droughts in central and northern parts, and made the normally green UK look brown from space—is forcing nuclear plants to shut down or curtail the amount of power they produce. French utility EDF shut four reactors at three power plants on Saturday, Swedish utility Vattenfall shut one of two reactors at a power plant earlier last week, and nuclear plants in Finland, Germany, and Switzerland have cut back the amount of power they produce.

[...]

https://qz.com/1348969/europes-heatwave-is-forcing-nuclear-power-plants-to-shut-down/
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Offline thackney

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2018, 04:45:58 pm »
Quote
...Thermal power plants, such as nuclear or coal, use high-temperature steam to turn turbines, which convert heat energy into electricity. In the process, the steam’s temperature falls, so it can no longer be used to move the turbine again. To raise its temperature back up, the steam first needs to be condensed into water, because liquids absorb heat better than gases. The condensation is achieved by using cooling water drawn from rivers, lakes, or seas, which is then dumped back at a temperature that is safe for wildlife in those waters....

Somebody told him the buzzwords without him gaining understanding of how it actually works.
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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2018, 04:50:46 pm »
Somebody told him the buzzwords without him gaining understanding of how it actually works.

I think of it as the opposite.  He doesn't know the technical words to say what he's trying to say.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2018, 05:02:42 pm »
I think of it as the opposite.  He doesn't know the technical words to say what he's trying to say.

He thinks the condenser is needed to be able to heat up the steam.  He doesn't understand the most basic concept of the steam cycle.
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Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2018, 10:04:01 pm »
If this is affecting nukes, then it is also affecting coal and gas fired steam plants, the power production cycle in steam plants are a the same, just minor differences to account for differences in steam temperature and pressure. All of them use condensers to cool the LP turbine exhaust steam back to water so it can be pumped forward through the feedwater heaters and then into the boiler or reactor/steam generator.

Back when we started up Comanche Peak Unit 2 in 1993, the first summer we operated at full power with both units, Squaw Creek Lake heated up to 101F at the condenser inlet. The original AE firm designed the lake about 40% too small. Output fell from the nominal 1165 MWe at 95F to 1140 MWe and we were almost at the point of having to derate the units in order to keep condensate temperatures below 140F. The condensate cleanup resins would start to break down at that temperature. Chemistry dept had to keep a close eye on condensate chemistry to ensure that did not happen as some water could be higher than the bulk temperature due to flow streaming. Management was starting to get nervous before the rains came in late August and early September.

When I left Comanche Peak in 1997 and went to work at the Dresden plant in Illinois, I found out Dresden had to derate as much as 200 MWe for days on end in late summer to avoid sending cooling water out to the Illinois river at temperatures over 93F. We eventually put helper cooing towers in that sucked out water from the hot canal, cooled it and dumped it back in the cool canal coming from the cooing lake. Those kept the derates to almost zero until the plant did a 20% power uprate 3 years later.

Offline kidd

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2018, 06:16:30 pm »
If this is affecting nukes, then it is also affecting coal and gas fired steam plants, the power production cycle in steam plants are a the same, just minor differences to account for differences in steam temperature and pressure. All of them use condensers to cool the LP turbine exhaust steam back to water so it can be pumped forward through the feedwater heaters and then into the boiler or reactor/steam generator.

Back when we started up Comanche Peak Unit 2 in 1993, the first summer we operated at full power with both units, Squaw Creek Lake heated up to 101F at the condenser inlet. The original AE firm designed the lake about 40% too small. Output fell from the nominal 1165 MWe at 95F to 1140 MWe and we were almost at the point of having to derate the units in order to keep condensate temperatures below 140F. The condensate cleanup resins would start to break down at that temperature. Chemistry dept had to keep a close eye on condensate chemistry to ensure that did not happen as some water could be higher than the bulk temperature due to flow streaming. Management was starting to get nervous before the rains came in late August and early September.

When I left Comanche Peak in 1997 and went to work at the Dresden plant in Illinois, I found out Dresden had to derate as much as 200 MWe for days on end in late summer to avoid sending cooling water out to the Illinois river at temperatures over 93F. We eventually put helper cooing towers in that sucked out water from the hot canal, cooled it and dumped it back in the cool canal coming from the cooing lake. Those kept the derates to almost zero until the plant did a 20% power uprate 3 years later.
There is a similar problem at Sanmen Unit 1. The summer river mouth water temperature is much higher than what the Chinese told us was the maximum temperature.

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2018, 12:14:14 pm »
There is a similar problem at Sanmen Unit 1. The summer river mouth water temperature is much higher than what the Chinese told us was the maximum temperature.

How's the startup going there? The last I heard they had gotten to 40% power, then shut down for a quick outage and were supposed to come back up about 2 weeks ago.

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2018, 12:15:56 pm »
If this is affecting nukes, then it is also affecting coal and gas fired steam plants, the power production cycle in steam plants are a the same, just minor differences to account for differences in steam temperature and pressure. All of them use condensers to cool the LP turbine exhaust steam back to water so it can be pumped forward through the feedwater heaters and then into the boiler or reactor/steam generator.

Back when we started up Comanche Peak Unit 2 in 1993, the first summer we operated at full power with both units, Squaw Creek Lake heated up to 101F at the condenser inlet. The original AE firm designed the lake about 40% too small. Output fell from the nominal 1165 MWe at 95F to 1140 MWe and we were almost at the point of having to derate the units in order to keep condensate temperatures below 140F. The condensate cleanup resins would start to break down at that temperature. Chemistry dept had to keep a close eye on condensate chemistry to ensure that did not happen as some water could be higher than the bulk temperature due to flow streaming. Management was starting to get nervous before the rains came in late August and early September.

When I left Comanche Peak in 1997 and went to work at the Dresden plant in Illinois, I found out Dresden had to derate as much as 200 MWe for days on end in late summer to avoid sending cooling water out to the Illinois river at temperatures over 93F. We eventually put helper cooing towers in that sucked out water from the hot canal, cooled it and dumped it back in the cool canal coming from the cooing lake. Those kept the derates to almost zero until the plant did a 20% power uprate 3 years later.

I went skiing in Squaw Creek Lake that summer. It was like being in a huge dirty hot tub.....

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2018, 12:17:00 pm »
There is a similar problem at Sanmen Unit 1. The summer river mouth water temperature is much higher than what the Chinese told us was the maximum temperature.

The Chinese lied to CirclebarW...

SURPRISE!SURPRISE!SURPRISE!

Offline kidd

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2018, 04:12:37 am »
How's the startup going there? The last I heard they had gotten to 40% power, then shut down for a quick outage and were supposed to come back up about 2 weeks ago.
I'm back in the states. I don't hear much, as we are swamped with work from domestic customers, which is my focus now. We're out of bankruptcy!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 04:15:56 am by kidd »

Offline DB

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2018, 07:37:40 am »
It sounds like the heat exchangers/condensers were under sized for the environmental conditions.

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2018, 01:30:16 pm »
We're out of bankruptcy!

I heard about that. So Brookefield has taken over completely now? How is the Vogtle project going?

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2018, 01:38:53 pm »
It sounds like the heat exchangers/condensers were under sized for the environmental conditions.

That problem is more typical than most folks think. Many 70's vintage plants have undersized condensers. In other cases, the utilities have uprated the plants' licensed reactor power, which then caused a previously right sized condenser to become undersized, especially at BWRs that did the 20% Extended uprates. I have analyzed the condensers at 12 different nukes all over the US (and Brazil). Most had about a 5% margin originally, though Dresden was severely undersized due to Exelon (then Com Ed) cheaping out and using the same condenser design for Dresden, Quad Cities, and Zion. It was designed for Lake Michigan conditions at Zion and was about 15% too small for environmental conditions on the Illinois River system.

Offline DB

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2018, 06:55:40 pm »
That's interesting. This isn't an area I would think one would want to cut corners.

I've recently moved to the Phoenix area providing a new definition of "hot"... Palo Verda is in the middle of the desert where it is really hot and they seem to have figured it out.

Offline thackney

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2018, 06:58:33 pm »
That's interesting. This isn't an area I would think one would want to cut corners.

I've recently moved to the Phoenix area providing a new definition of "hot"... Palo Verda is in the middle of the desert where it is really hot and they seem to have figured it out.

Yep, instead of fresh water intake, they use the other side of the toilet.

http://www.azfamily.com/story/32297749/how-the-nations-largest-nuclear-power-plant-stays-cool-in-arizonas-summer-heat

"If you want to help Palo Verde, flush twice," Bement quipped. "We'll appreciate it."
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Offline thackney

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2018, 07:00:21 pm »
By the way, concerns over hot water and associated nuclear power plant derating happens over here as well.

https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/event-status/reactor-status/2018/20180618ps.html
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Offline DB

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2018, 07:03:18 pm »
Yep, instead of fresh water intake, they use the other side of the toilet.

http://www.azfamily.com/story/32297749/how-the-nations-largest-nuclear-power-plant-stays-cool-in-arizonas-summer-heat

"If you want to help Palo Verde, flush twice," Bement quipped. "We'll appreciate it."

Didn't know that, thanks!

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2018, 01:26:55 am »
Yep, instead of fresh water intake, they use the other side of the toilet.

http://www.azfamily.com/story/32297749/how-the-nations-largest-nuclear-power-plant-stays-cool-in-arizonas-summer-heat

"If you want to help Palo Verde, flush twice," Bement quipped. "We'll appreciate it."

Palo Verde also uses cooling towers, which cuts down on water usage and sets a maximum circulating water temperature below what a lake would be in the Arizona desert. The very dryness of the desert air makes the cooling towers work very well

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2018, 01:36:10 am »
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Offline thackney

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2018, 11:20:26 am »
Palo Verde also uses cooling towers, which cuts down on water usage and sets a maximum circulating water temperature below what a lake would be in the Arizona desert. The very dryness of the desert air makes the cooling towers work very well

Doesn't every heated steam power plant use cooling tower?  These are just the water source mainly for the cooling towers, right?
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Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2018, 02:47:09 pm »
Doesn't every heated steam power plant use cooling tower?  These are just the water source mainly for the cooling towers, right?

Most steam plants in the US do not use cooling towers. They cool the condensers directly from a river or lake. Now any plant designed since the late 1980's, unless they built a lake off of a seasonal creek, have cooling towers to meet US environmental regulations. Most of the nukes in the US are direct cooled.

Offline thackney

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2018, 04:47:58 pm »
Most steam plants in the US do not use cooling towers. They cool the condensers directly from a river or lake. Now any plant designed since the late 1980's, unless they built a lake off of a seasonal creek, have cooling towers to meet US environmental regulations. Most of the nukes in the US are direct cooled.

Thank you for that info.
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Offline DB

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2018, 07:57:55 pm »
Thank you for that info.

Diablo Canyon in CA uses sea water to cool the condensers. But is closing in 5 or so years. One of the reasons it is closing. Different ecology due to warmer waters around the plant is "unnatural" and must be fought tooth and nail.

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2018, 08:45:28 pm »
Diablo Canyon in CA uses sea water to cool the condensers. But is closing in 5 or so years. One of the reasons it is closing. Different ecology due to warmer waters around the plant is "unnatural" and must be fought tooth and nail.

Even though it has been proven that the warm water discharge increases the biodiversity in that area............

The main reason it is closing is the bitter, rabid anti nuclear sentiments of the Californicatia elites.

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Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2018, 03:11:56 am »
Even though it has been proven that the warm water discharge increases the biodiversity in that area............

The main reason it is closing is the bitter, rabid anti nuclear sentiments of the Californicatia elites.

That's what did in the power plant in Morro Bay CA. The state/Fed wanted them to add cooling towers instead of using sea water, which they had been using for 60+ years. It wasn't worth it. Closed the plant instead.