Author Topic: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade  (Read 9920 times)

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Offline Bigun

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2018, 07:31:18 pm »
I'm 100% in favor of a woman being in total control of her reproductive parts but once she has granted someone entry there and another human life results it's a different story.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2018, 07:39:18 pm »
What else will it become?
I'm OK with a woman having an abortion so long as the unborn child isn't harmed in the process.

What it might become is irrelevant to the existence of the fundamental right.  It is only relevant in the balancing that must be done when the State attempts to interfere with that fundamental right, and it has little or no weight until “might” becomes “is”.  That is, until it is viable as a separate being in a real and meaningful sense. 

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2018, 07:39:45 pm »
I'm 100% in favor of a woman being in total control of her reproductive parts but once she has granted someone entry there and another human life results it's a different story.

You’re certainly entitled to your opinions. 

Offline Bigun

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2018, 07:41:23 pm »
You’re certainly entitled to your opinions.

TYVM! 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2018, 07:41:49 pm »

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2018, 07:43:05 pm »
The Wehle opinion piece is spot-on in comparing the right to liberty expressed in Roe to the individual right to bear arms found in the Second Amendment and Heller.  Neither is absolute -  just as the gun right can be regulated/restricted because of the State's interest in public safety, so can the abortion right be regulated/restricted because of the State's interest in protecting potential human life. 

But such regulation/restriction cannot go so far as to deny the fundamental liberty that's protected.  For the gun right, that's the natural right to self-defense - hence D.C. cannot ban handguns. For the abortion right, that's the natural right of self-determination - hence abortion can be restricted in the second and third trimesters, so long as the woman has a meaningful opportunity before then to make her choice free of the State's coercion. 

It is refreshing to see a well-articulated take on the abortion right from the perspective of a limited-government conservative!   It seems sometimes that the social conservatives have eclipsed and seek to drown out the more traditional idea of conservatism as protecting individual liberty.   But there's still a few of us apostates left!   
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 07:45:55 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2018, 07:49:24 pm »
Irrational is privileging a smattering of cells that, in several months might, just might, become a baby over the right of the person to whom those cells are attached to control what goes on with their own body before that possibility has become fact.

Might become a baby? What else will it become, a pecan pie? As for cells, we are all sacs of cells, pre- or post-born. Blood cells, skin cells, muscle cells, etc.
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2018, 08:07:31 pm »
For the abortion right, that's the natural right of self-determination - hence abortion can be restricted in the second and third trimesters, so long as the woman has a meaningful opportunity before then to make her choice free of the State's coercion.

With or without legal abortion, women have the exact same capability as men to practice self-determination with regard to reproduction free of the state's coercion - if you don't want to have a baby, don't engage intercourse.  Abortion does not protect that right for a woman, it protects her from the consequences of failing to exercise that right.  However we define life, whether it's viability or, as I think more appropriate, distinct human DNA, positing that abortion is a right while child support is an obligation by definition means that women inherently have rights that men do not have, hence all citizens do *not* have equal rights.  This is not equality before the law.

Maintaining this position grants logically that men can inherently have rights which women do not have.  What are those distinct male-only rights?

Quote
It is refreshing to see a well-articulated take on the abortion right from the perspective of a limited-government conservative!   It seems sometimes that the social conservatives have eclipsed and seek to drown out the more traditional idea of conservatism as protecting individual liberty.

Limited-government conservatism does not mean no government.  Government *does* have a compelling interest in protecting human life.  The debate here is not over what the law says - in fact the law defines human life by reference to viability - the debate is over what the law *should* say.  The case for repealing Roe is *not* that the viability-based definition is somehow being misinterpreted; the case against Roe is that the viability-based definition is simply wrong.  Individual *liberty* cannot be protected in the absence of individual *life* being protected.
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Offline Sighlass

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2018, 08:25:25 pm »
I don't see how the author makes such jumps in correlation.  The governments job is to protect it's citizens life. Science everyday lately proves life begins at conception. We already knew this, it was common sense even 2000 years ago.

Personally, the wife and I had a child late in life. It was an "opps" baby that was not planned. I was less than thrilled to be honest, but I knew it was God's plan. Now years later, this child is the light of my life. I thank the Lord daily for him. But if he was adopted out, he probable would be the light of someone else's life. I just don't see how a society can be so callous towards life. A government that does not value it's job of protecting life will later start turning on other stages of life. And as most of this forum is older, they fully understand what stage I am talking about.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 08:27:11 pm by Sighlass »
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Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2018, 08:26:15 pm »
With or without legal abortion, women have the exact same capability as men to practice self-determination with regard to reproduction free of the state's coercion - if you don't want to have a baby, don't engage intercourse.  Abortion does not protect that right for a woman, it protects her from the consequences of failing to exercise that right.  However we define life, whether it's viability or, as I think more appropriate, distinct human DNA, positing that abortion is a right while child support is an obligation by definition means that women inherently have rights that men do not have, hence all citizens do *not* have equal rights.  This is not equality before the law.

Maintaining this position grants logically that men can inherently have rights which women do not have.  What are those distinct male-only rights?

Limited-government conservatism does not mean no government.  Government *does* have a compelling interest in protecting human life.  The debate here is not over what the law says - in fact the law defines human life by reference to viability - the debate is over what the law *should* say.  The case for repealing Roe is *not* that the viability-based definition is somehow being misinterpreted; the case against Roe is that the viability-based definition is simply wrong.  Individual *liberty* cannot be protected in the absence of individual *life* being protected.

True enough.  However, on that basis, Roe was largely correctly decided. 

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2018, 08:34:15 pm »
The governments job is to protect it's citizens life.

Correct - except that a pre-viable fetus is not a citizen.   Prior to viability, the government's only job is to protect its citizen's LIBERTY.   

Quote
Personally, the wife and I had a child late in life. It was an "opps" baby that was not planned. I was less than thrilled to be honest, but I knew it was God's plan. Now years later, this child is the light of my life. I thank the Lord daily for him. But if he was adopted out, he probable would be the light of someone else's life. I just don't see how a society can be so callous towards life. A government that does not value it's job of protecting life will later start turning on other stages of life. And as most of this forum is older, they fully understand what stage I am talking about.


Our society is not "callous towards life".   There are resources available to pregnant women to help them make a moral decision consistent with "God's plan".   The debate (at least not as far as I'm concerned) is not about the morality of abortion.  It is about the role that the State should play.   IMO, the State cannot play any role whatsoever with respect to a woman's decision with respect to her pre-viable fetus.  That is fundamentally personal,  and the State must respect her liberty.  Only after viability can the State coerce behavior - not before.   
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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2018, 08:37:35 pm »
@Jazzhead what is a pre-viable fetus?
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2018, 08:39:39 pm »
I'm 100% in favor of a woman being in total control of her reproductive parts but once she has granted someone entry there and another human life results it's a different story. 

Just a suggestion:  Please don't put your post on a bumper sticker. :smokin:

Having said that, can it be assumed you support aborting human life when rape is the vehicle of conception?   

What about aborting human life when it is known that the mother will not survive the pregnancy?

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2018, 08:45:18 pm »
@Jazzhead what is a pre-viable fetus?

Aw come on, we just had this LONG conversation a couple of days ago.

If you don't recall or want to read that thread, try putting  "previable fetus" into your Google machine.  You'll find lots of information.

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2018, 08:45:47 pm »
Having said that, can it be assumed you support aborting human life when rape is the vehicle of conception?   

They give you pills to prevent pregnancy when you go to the ER after a rape so that is a red herring.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2018, 08:45:47 pm »
Just a suggestion:  Please don't put your post on a bumper sticker. :smokin:

Having said that, can it be assumed you support aborting human life when rape is the vehicle of conception?   

What about aborting human life when it is known that the mother will not survive the pregnancy?

@Bigun



@Right_in_Virginia

I have no intention to put ANY of my posts on a bumper sticker.   If you mean that the concensus of medical opinion is that the mother is likely to die if the pregnancy is allowed to progress then I would say she has a decision to make.

IIRC that was the law in most places prior to Roe.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 08:47:14 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2018, 08:46:31 pm »
Just a suggestion:  Please don't put your post on a bumper sticker. :smokin:

Having said that, can it be assumed you support aborting human life when rape is the vehicle of conception?   

What about aborting human life when it is known that the mother will not survive the pregnancy?

@Bigun

I’m sure it’s google-able but I have to go start dinner: A doc on Fox a few years back talked about how the mother’s life isn’t really an issue anymore thanks to modern med. As to rape, a friend in college was the result of rape. She challenged anybody to tell her to her face that she was just a choice.  :shrug:
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2018, 08:49:17 pm »
They give you pills to prevent pregnancy when you go to the ER after a rape so that is a red herring.

It is a red herring for multiple reasons.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2018, 08:54:54 pm »
They give you pills to prevent pregnancy when you go to the ER after a rape so that is a red herring.

That isn’t a red herring.  If conception has taken place, that’s an abortion. 

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2018, 08:55:50 pm »
I’m sure it’s google-able but I have to go start dinner: A doc on Fox a few years back talked about how the mother’s life isn’t really an issue anymore thanks to modern med. As to rape, a friend in college was the result of rape. She challenged anybody to tell her to her face that she was just a choice.  :shrug:

She was a choice, just as most of us are.  She should be glad her mother chose her.

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2018, 08:56:24 pm »


@Right_in_Virginia

I have no intention to put ANY of my posts on a bumper sticker.   If you mean that the concensus of medical opinion is that the mother is likely to die if the pregnancy is allowed to progress then I would say she has a decision to make.

IIRC that was the law in most places prior to Roe.



How is that not an abortion?

Offline Bigun

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2018, 08:58:01 pm »
How is that not an abortion?

Never said it wasn't. 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2018, 08:59:12 pm »


@Right_in_Virginia

I have no intention to put ANY of my posts on a bumper sticker.   If you mean that the concensus of medical opinion is that the mother is likely to die if the pregnancy is allowed to progress then I would say she has a decision to make.

IIRC that was the law in most places prior to Roe.

What about a pregnancy resulting from rape @Bigun  Does the assaulted woman have the right to abort the previable fetus?

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2018, 08:59:28 pm »
Never said it wasn't. 

So then how is it justifiable? 

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Why conservatives should support Roe v. Wade
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2018, 09:00:49 pm »
That isn’t a red herring.  If conception has taken place, that’s an abortion.

Exactly.  Just like any other morning after pill ..... but they're not always effective either.