Author Topic: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives  (Read 6230 times)

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« on: June 29, 2018, 11:40:53 am »
The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
They’ll always have Twitter and MSNBC.
American Spectator, Jun 29, 2018, Emerald Robinson

With the installation of Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court, and a yet-to-be-named reliable replacement for the unreliable Anthony Kennedy, Donald Trump will have confirmed himself as the most consequential conservative president of the modern era (or a close second to Reagan if you’re nostalgic). This will be complete vindication for Trump supporters, which means it’s really the end for the so-called Never Trump conservatives. Of course, there have been so many humiliating defeats for that crowd that we are spoiled for choice. What was your favorite blunder, or blown prediction, which marked their ignominious end?

For some, it must have been in March when Bill Kristol, longtime editor of the conservative magazine the Weekly Standard, showed up in New Hampshire telling people he would run against President Trump in 2020. Or in April when the conservative website RedState was taken over and purged of writers who were “insufficiently supportive” of the president. Some go back to October 2017 when a Twitter spat broke out between Stephen Hayes and Brit Hume of Fox News over the Weekly Standard’s anti-Trump editorials. With the death last week of Charles Krauthammer, the revered neocon commentator and prominent Trump skeptic, the eclipse of the neocon intellectuals is complete.

<snip>

What happened? If these intellectuals were so influential in the conservative movement, then why has their apostasy garnered so little attention? A Ramesh Ponnuru editorial in Bloomberg blurted out this truth: “In 2016 we found out that conservative elites didn’t speak for Republican voters.” This split between the party’s base and its donor class (as well as the donor-funded intellectuals) was years in the making, but it became obvious once Trump became the nominee. Then the truth became obvious and damning: the Never Trumpers represented no one but themselves.

Looking back, it now seems self-evident that conservative pundits were preposterously out of touch. (Who isn’t amused by the poindexter pretentiousness of George Will’s bow-ties or the pseudo-scholarly piffle of Jonah Goldberg’s byline as “the inaugural holder of the Asness Chair in Applied Liberty?”). These intellectuals barely noticed the opioid crisis running through small town America; or the base’s anger regarding illegal immigration; and they were adamantly opposed to any restriction of free trade while working class frustrations mounted over NAFTA and its ilk.  . . .


Read more:  https://spectator.org/the-collapse-of-the-never-trump-conservatives/

Offline aligncare

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2018, 12:52:04 pm »
Good read, interesting perspectives touching on religion and culture, and valid points exploring the rift between conservative elites and grassroot conservative republicans opened by Donald Trump’s jump into politics.

My perspective on the subject? The author hits it out of the park.

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2018, 12:53:53 pm »
Because instead of focusing on policy, they got caught up in pearl clutching. Yes Trump is rude and crude, and says some real face palmers, but policy wise he's mostly made good moves with total resistance from Congress. We've already won big with his SCOTUS pick, and now he gets another this year.

Meanwhile, the NT'ers literally let themselves be drug around by his tweets, with the constant socialite reaction of 'well I never!' and going all in offended tizzies because Trump isn't the Reaganesque statesman. They try to ride that minor argument into a full fledged legal defense, and have only come out looking silly by it.
The Republic is lost.

Offline jpsb

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2018, 12:58:08 pm »
The money quote

the truth became obvious and damning:
the Never Trumpers represented no one but themselves.

Offline endicom

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2018, 01:02:27 pm »

The ones collapsing are the ones exposing themselves as ivory tower twits.


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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2018, 01:32:45 pm »
The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
They’ll always have Twitter and MSNBC.
American Spectator, Jun 29, 2018, Emerald Robinson

With the installation of Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court, and a yet-to-be-named reliable replacement for the unreliable Anthony Kennedy, Donald Trump will have confirmed himself as the most consequential conservative president of the modern era (or a close second to Reagan if you’re nostalgic). This will be complete vindication for Trump supporters, which means it’s really the end for the so-called Never Trump conservatives. Of course, there have been so many humiliating defeats for that crowd that we are spoiled for choice. What was your favorite blunder, or blown prediction, which marked their ignominious end?

For some, it must have been in March when Bill Kristol, longtime editor of the conservative magazine the Weekly Standard, showed up in New Hampshire telling people he would run against President Trump in 2020. Or in April when the conservative website RedState was taken over and purged of writers who were “insufficiently supportive” of the president. Some go back to October 2017 when a Twitter spat broke out between Stephen Hayes and Brit Hume of Fox News over the Weekly Standard’s anti-Trump editorials. With the death last week of Charles Krauthammer, the revered neocon commentator and prominent Trump skeptic, the eclipse of the neocon intellectuals is complete.

<snip>

What happened? If these intellectuals were so influential in the conservative movement, then why has their apostasy garnered so little attention? A Ramesh Ponnuru editorial in Bloomberg blurted out this truth: “In 2016 we found out that conservative elites didn’t speak for Republican voters.” This split between the party’s base and its donor class (as well as the donor-funded intellectuals) was years in the making, but it became obvious once Trump became the nominee. Then the truth became obvious and damning: the Never Trumpers represented no one but themselves.

Looking back, it now seems self-evident that conservative pundits were preposterously out of touch. (Who isn’t amused by the poindexter pretentiousness of George Will’s bow-ties or the pseudo-scholarly piffle of Jonah Goldberg’s byline as “the inaugural holder of the Asness Chair in Applied Liberty?”). These intellectuals barely noticed the opioid crisis running through small town America; or the base’s anger regarding illegal immigration; and they were adamantly opposed to any restriction of free trade while working class frustrations mounted over NAFTA and its ilk.  . . .


Read more:  https://spectator.org/the-collapse-of-the-never-trump-conservatives/

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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2018, 01:43:40 pm »
The George Will article was certainly eye-opening to me.

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2018, 02:40:45 pm »
This article has substantial merit in its assessment of just how utterly out of touch the conservative Punditocracy has grown with the GOP rank-and-file voter. 

On the other hand, a party that claims to be based in ideas also needs an intellectual leadership, and many of those derided in the same article have long provided such council, for better or worse.
The distaste of the coastal elites for Donald Trump obviously crosses political lines, largely because it is significantly based not in politics, but in culture. 

As a reflection of the fact, many of us on the Right who largely support his policies nonetheless see him as uncouth, sometimes loutish, and generally uninterested in ideas. But unlike so many of our "pundits", we can overlook these qualities in the face of at least two central realities: 
 
(a) President Trump has been quite successful in promoting a conservative policy agenda, even in spite of his Edward Twitterhands alter-ego, and
(b) the Left, largely represented by the Democrat Party, is growing increasingly angry, unhinged, and I would argue, dangerous.

So, when I read articles from people like George Will (whose intellect I have respected for a long time) suggesting that people should vote for Democrats this fall as a protest against Trumpism, I suspect that his bow tie may be cutting off too much of the oxygen to his head.

Even Jonah Goldberg (who I respect both for his mind and his humor) has begun to come around on this, recognizing that while Trump may not be the greatest thing since sliced challah bread, he's been pretty damned good so far and a whole lot better than any prospective leader of the roiling mob on the other side of the political divide.   
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2018, 02:44:57 pm »
As a reflection of the fact, many of us on the Right who largely support his policies nonetheless see him as uncouth, sometimes loutish, and generally uninterested in ideas. But unlike so many of our "pundits", we can overlook these qualities in the face of at least two central realities: 
 
(a) President Trump has been quite successful in promoting a conservative policy agenda, even in spite of his Edward Twitterhands alter-ego, and
(b) the Left, largely represented by the Democrat Party, is growing increasingly angry, unhinged, and I would argue, dangerous.

That pretty much sums up my feelings. We forget that the other side is not composed of intellectual statesmen, and I fear that the only thing that can take them on is a bit of a crude bastard to cut the Gordian knot.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 02:45:44 pm by Free Vulcan »
The Republic is lost.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2018, 02:47:06 pm »
Looking back, it now seems self-evident that conservative pundits were preposterously out of touch. (Who isn’t amused by the poindexter pretentiousness of George Will’s bow-ties or the pseudo-scholarly piffle of Jonah Goldberg’s byline as “the inaugural holder of the Asness Chair in Applied Liberty?”). These intellectuals barely noticed the opioid crisis running through small town America; or the base’s anger regarding illegal immigration; and they were adamantly opposed to any restriction of free trade while working class frustrations mounted over NAFTA and its ilk.  . . .
Read more:  https://spectator.org/the-collapse-of-the-never-trump-conservatives/

I was with you until Nafta, because restricting free trade will just make life worse for average, working class americans while doing nothing or very little to help them.

Offline Concerned

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2018, 02:51:26 pm »
With approval ratings with Republicans reportedly anywhere from 80% to 90%, it’s clear that the Republican Party is now, full-fledged, the Party of Trump.  This continues to shock and disappoint me as a fiscal conservative.  I really (naively apparently) thought that most of the Republican Party was the party of fiscal responsibility and accountability yet the Party of Trump has fully embraced deficit spending and adding trillions to the national debt. 
I adore facts and data and abhor lies and liars.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2018, 02:59:09 pm »
With approval ratings with Republicans reportedly anywhere from 80% to 90%, it’s clear that the Republican Party is now, full-fledged, the Party of Trump.  This continues to shock and disappoint me as a fiscal conservative.  I really (naively apparently) thought that most of the Republican Party was the party of fiscal responsibility and accountability yet the Party of Trump has fully embraced deficit spending and adding trillions to the national debt.

 :shrug:

Even Reagan couldn't really do anything about the debt/deficit. Last I looked we spend almost a trillion on means tested entitlements. A shit ton of boomers (many "conservatives") are on disability and refuse to work.

Back in the 90's I believe we had at least a net surplus? I forget the specifics? I seem to recall that Clinton tried to claim credit for it, and GOPers got pissed, and the Bush got into power and blew the whole thing into shit with the Iraq war anyway. Mentioning the deficit in 2005-era Freak Republic and Jimmy the clown would zot you, because we had to kill the big bad Muzzies.

Seems to me we're on the fiat currency inflationary train for the time being, and the only thing to do is to financially prepare your own finances for that reality.

But, point taken.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2018, 02:59:28 pm »
I was with you until Nafta, because restricting free trade will just make life worse for average, working class americans while doing nothing or very little to help them.

Can you show me where there has been free trade? It's a unicorn that doesn't exist.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2018, 03:00:45 pm »
Can you show me where there has been free trade? It's a unicorn that doesn't exist.

Restricting cheap imports then. They benefit working Americans. Period.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2018, 03:02:57 pm »
I was with you until Nafta, because restricting free trade will just make life worse for average, working class americans while doing nothing or very little to help them.
The NAFTA thing and his general ignorance about trade deficits is one of the reasons I opposed Trump in the primaries. And the fact that he's an uncouth, narcissistic lout.   But I did vote for him, and I'm not sorry he beat Hillary. Hillary would have been a rank disaster for the country. I place the country before feelings above negative personal characteristics of a candidate. 
When it came down to Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump, there was no choice but Trump.  A choice between a committed leftist and a boorish, but pro-American candidate is no choice.
But this article assumes that everybody who voted for Trump despite great doubts is now ecstatic.  Not the case. I'm looking down the road.
Will Trump be good for the future survival of conservative ideas? Or do all the Trumpists believe conservatism ala William F. Buckley/Ronald Reagan is dead and that economic laws can be broken and ignored with no consequences? Good luck with that.

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2018, 03:03:46 pm »
With approval ratings with Republicans reportedly anywhere from 80% to 90%, it’s clear that the Republican Party is now, full-fledged, the Party of Trump.  This continues to shock and disappoint me as a fiscal conservative.  I really (naively apparently) thought that most of the Republican Party was the party of fiscal responsibility and accountability yet the Party of Trump has fully embraced deficit spending and adding trillions to the national debt.

You realize that the generally Trump hostile House and Senate passed that bill, correct?

And I did not support Trump signing that bill. In fact that that has been his biggest ding against him.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2018, 03:04:43 pm »
Restricting cheap imports then. They benefit working Americans. Period.

No. They mask the fact that real jobs disappeared and everyone is on welfare or waiting tables.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2018, 03:08:01 pm »
No. They mask the fact that real jobs disappeared and everyone is on welfare or waiting tables.


Quote
Donald J. Trump
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@realDonaldTrump

Stock Market at all time high, unemployment at lowest level in years (wages will start going up) and our base has never been stronger!

I thought Trump was God, little Frankie?

Offline Concerned

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2018, 03:09:03 pm »
You realize that the generally Trump hostile House and Senate passed that bill, correct?

And I did not support Trump signing that bill. In fact that that has been his biggest ding against him.

Yes, I do understand that the Republican House and Senate passed the bill and that the "great deal-maker" signed it.  What I don't understand is how so many supposed "fiscal conservatives", who railed against Barack Obama about deficit spending, can be RELATIVELY quiet about the trillions being adding to the national debt by "their guy".   I really thought most "fiscal conservatives" had more principles than that.  I was obviously wrong.
I adore facts and data and abhor lies and liars.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2018, 03:10:30 pm »

I thought Trump was God, little Frankie?

He is because he is finally tackling these issues.

Offline skeeter

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2018, 03:11:42 pm »
Yes, I do understand that the Republican House and Senate passed the bill and that the "great deal-maker" signed it.  What I don't understand is how so many supposed "fiscal conservatives", who railed against Barack Obama about deficit spending, can be RELATIVELY quiet about the trillions being adding to the national debt by "their guy".   I really thought most "fiscal conservatives" had more principles than that.  I was obviously wrong.

Maybe because we've been told over & over by the "moderate" wing of the party that we can't expect to get 100% of what we want?

At least thats what they used to say.

Offline INVAR

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2018, 03:11:58 pm »
Yes, I do understand that the Republican House and Senate passed the bill and that the "great deal-maker" signed it.  What I don't understand is how so many supposed "fiscal conservatives", who railed against Barack Obama about deficit spending, can be RELATIVELY quiet about the trillions being adding to the national debt by "their guy".   I really thought most "fiscal conservatives" had more principles than that.  I was obviously wrong.

Amen to that sentiment.

"Principles" we have been told are a liability that no longer can win elections, so we were told to discard them for what is pragmatic.  Go with the flow of fiscal oblivion and spend faster and print more money out of thin air faster than Democrats and insist to everyone that you have saved the country.

That is the idiocy that now passes for "Conservatism".
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2018, 03:14:51 pm »
Yes, I do understand that the Republican House and Senate passed the bill and that the "great deal-maker" signed it.  What I don't understand is how so many supposed "fiscal conservatives", who railed against Barack Obama about deficit spending, can be RELATIVELY quiet about the trillions being adding to the national debt by "their guy".   I really thought most "fiscal conservatives" had more principles than that.  I was obviously wrong.

Since you have to go back Calvin Coolidge to find a President that genuinely cut the size of government and spending (50%) your argument is silly because it's a fairy tale.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 03:15:24 pm by Frank Cannon »

Offline Concerned

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2018, 03:18:28 pm »
Maybe because we've been told over & over by the "moderate" wing of the party that we can't expect to get 100% of what we want?

At least thats what they used to say.

I agree that you probably can’t get 100% of what you want.  If so, then it comes down to priorities IMO.  Look, if a war on political correctness or cultural issues is your #1 priority, I understand why Donald Trump is your guy.  If being pro-life is your #1 priority, I understand why Donald Trump is your guy, but for those of us for whom fiscal conservatism is our #1 priority, we’re not happy with Trump’s reckless spending.  For some reason, many Trump supporters don’t seem to be capable of understanding that.  I don’t understand that.  JMO.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The Collapse of the Never-Trump Conservatives
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2018, 03:24:46 pm »
Well, this thread should go well.

I'm not sure why some folks feel compelled to dance on the graves of those they feel have been proven wrong.  Isn't it more effective -- not to mention more gracious -- to simply jointly celebrate good news, rather than engaged in a bunch of "nyah nyah, I told you so's?"