Author Topic: America's closest allies are furious about Trump's tariffs, and now an unorthodox idea to go after h  (Read 1432 times)

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Offline ABX

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The Woodrow Wilson strategy of central planning is backfiring, now on Trump's personal business.

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President Donald Trump's headlong push toward a trade war is prompting unprecedented responses from countries around the world and blowback from top US allies.
In the past three months, Trump has hit countries around the world with a 25% tariff on steel and a 10% tariff on aluminum exports to the US. The decision prompted a swift response from US allies, including retaliatory tariffs and a radical departure in treatment from other formerly friendly foreign leaders — from Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to French President Emmanuel Macron......

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/americas-closest-allies-are-furious-about-trumps-tariffs-and-now-an-unorthodox-idea-to-go-after-him-is-gaining-steam/ar-AAz5ChC


Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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We already had a trade war for years on autos and did not know it as the EU hit American cars with a 20% tariff while we allowed theirs into the country with a measly 2.5% tariff.

Trump did not start this.

It was previous administrations which refused to act on EU tariffs.

Hit them with high tariffs to make up for the years we allowed them to stifle our own manufacturing productivity.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline ABX

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We already had a trade war for years on autos and did not know it as the EU hit American cars with a 20% tariff while we allowed theirs into the country with a measly 2.5% tariff.

Trump did not start this.

It was previous administrations which refused to act on EU tariffs.

Hit them with high tariffs to make up for the years we allowed them to stifle our own manufacturing productivity.

Technically that 20% tariff mostly offset the lack of the VAT on American autos as they weren't made there.

But companies adapted to this, found ways around it, and worked within the markets. The government should just butt out. If the EU wants to punish their own citizens with higher taxes and fees, we shouldn't reciprocate against our own citizens. After all, it isn't those companies that are ultimately paying, but the consumer.

Just because their governments operate with an interventionist, central planning policy, doesn't mean we should do the same.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Technically that 20% tariff mostly offset the lack of the VAT on American autos as they weren't made there.

But companies adapted to this, found ways around it, and worked within the markets. The government should just butt out. If the EU wants to punish their own citizens with higher taxes and fees, we shouldn't reciprocate against our own citizens. After all, it isn't those companies that are ultimately paying, but the consumer.

Just because their governments operate with an interventionist, central planning policy, doesn't mean we should do the same.
They destroyed for years American jobs in doing so.  Let's make things even before we decide to 'go along with them'.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline ABX

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They destroyed for years American jobs in doing so.  Let's make things even before we decide to 'go along with them'.

American companies destroyed American jobs by fighting advancement and efficiencies.

A perfect example of this is US Steel. In the 70s, US Steel was still using 1940s-1950s technology and processes. In the late 70s and early 80s, Japan pioneered new steel engineering and process controls as well as Kaizen quality control processes. Instead of US Steel learning from the Japanese method (which they offered to share), they dug in their heels and worked to ban the processes and Japanese steel because the more efficient process meant one person could do the job of 20 American workers.

It wasn't other countries policies that were killing our industries, it was our own, almost Luddite attitude in many industries- especially those who had Union monopoly over manpower. They cared more about what they could negotiate for the next contract than they thought of helping the business protect themselves and be competitive 10 or 20 years down the road.

This same story played out in many of our industries- especially automotive.

At that, you didn't really see a resurgence in US Automotive production until those companies started moving out of Union States and into Right to Work States. That brought about the new boom of US autos in the late 90s. At that time, because those companies finally shed off Union control and adopted better practices, that's the time you started seeing Japanese and European companies leaving their own countries to build cars here.

Not because of tariffs or government interventionism- just the opposite, because the government was out of the way.

Trump right now is following the Woodrow Wilson and Jimmy Carter models of trade.  Carter was a huge proponent of tariffs using the same argument that Trump is using now. (which is why Carter has been outspoken supporting Trump's tariffs).
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 06:47:10 pm by AbaraXas »

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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American companies destroyed American jobs by fighting advancement and efficiencies.

So you think American companies destroyed American jobs by the EU in slapping 20% tariffs on US auto imports?

Are you in lala land somewhere?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline ABX

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So you think American companies destroyed American jobs by the EU in slapping 20% tariffs on US auto imports?

Are you in lala land somewhere?

The EU tariff didn't destroy jobs, at that, our imports increased to the EU after that because the tariff was still less than the VAT many EU countries put on their own cars. (in some places like Denmark, it could be as much as 80% for domestically made vehicles).

Ford actually started becoming one of the top auto-sellers in Europe, selling more Mustangs in Germany than the Germans sold their own sports cars.
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2016/05/13/ford-sales-in-europe-continue-to-rise-in-april-mustang-germany.html

Ford was able to offset this by moving plants out of Union states to Right to Work states.
http://www.wardsauto.com/industry/new-michigan-law-swings-vehicle-production-right-work-states


So Ford, as an example, saw the market and worked within the market- without government interventionism. That's how the market works.




Offline ABX

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Correction- Denmark didn't tax cars at 80% but at 180%. They recently dropped that to only 100%.

https://www.carscoops.com/2017/08/denmark-to-slash-car-taxes-from-180-to/

So you can see why even a 20% tariff on imports couldn't offset the screw job the EU countries were even putting on their own products.


Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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The EU tariff didn't destroy jobs, at that, our imports increased to the EU after that because the tariff was still less than the VAT many EU countries put on their own cars. (in some places like Denmark, it could be as much as 80% for domestically made vehicles).

Ford actually started becoming one of the top auto-sellers in Europe, selling more Mustangs in Germany than the Germans sold their own sports cars.
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2016/05/13/ford-sales-in-europe-continue-to-rise-in-april-mustang-germany.html

Ford was able to offset this by moving plants out of Union states to Right to Work states.
http://www.wardsauto.com/industry/new-michigan-law-swings-vehicle-production-right-work-states


So Ford, as an example, saw the market and worked within the market- without government interventionism. That's how the market works.
Absolutely false argument.

We had a 2.5% tariff on EU imports.  EU had a 20% tariff against US imports.

Exactly how do those two facts cause the US to subsidize American products, which is what you said?

« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 08:44:18 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline ABX

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Absolutely false argument.

We had a 2.5% tariff on EU imports.  EU had a 20% tariff against US imports.

Exactly how do those two facts cause the US to subsidize American products, which is what you said?

I never used the word subsidize. That would be the wrong term in this context.

I believe taxation is theft, even if it is labeled a tariff. Just because other nations punish their consumers doesn't mean we should reciprocate. At that, as my example pointed out, even with the EU punishing their own citizens with extremely high VATs or tariffs, if the government stays out of it, our companies adapt and improvise and capitalize on what seems to be a perceived imbalance.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I never used the word subsidize. That would be the wrong term in this context.

I believe taxation is theft, even if it is labeled a tariff. Just because other nations punish their consumers doesn't mean we should reciprocate. At that, as my example pointed out, even with the EU punishing their own citizens with extremely high VATs or tariffs, if the government stays out of it, our companies adapt and improvise and capitalize on what seems to be a perceived imbalance.
I did misspeak as another poster used the word subsidize.

My point is that if we have a 2.5% import tariff for goods identical to goods from countries that slap 20% tariffs on imports from us, there is a tremendous disparity going on, and American manufacturers have been and continue to suffer as a consequence.

I honestly do not care about what the other countries do to their own citizens, so having a 20% tariff to compensate for a 20% VAT is a non-argument.

What I do care about is American jobs and fairness.

If the EU has not been playing fair so far into this game, there is no reason we should accept "ok, we will not have any tariffs between the countries" as we have been screwed for far too long
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Frank Cannon

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Technically that 20% tariff mostly offset the lack of the VAT on American autos as they weren't made there.


Bullshit. The tariff on US cars over there is 10% and then they are VAT taxed. We bang the Europeans 2.5 percent plus whatever state tax there is. Well less than 10% total.

Online Free Vulcan

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Europe and their protectionist crap is bad enough, but this is really a China problem with all their predatory trade practices.
The Republic is lost.