Author Topic: Trump, in Fox News interview, says of Kim Jong Un: 'We understand each other'  (Read 12440 times)

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Oceander

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Actually accusing someone of accusing someone of virtue signaling is worse

Now you’re just virtue-signaling too!!!  Where will it end?!?

Offline driftdiver

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I never heard the phrase virtue signaling till this last silly season. I wonder where and by whom it was first used?

Trumps fault
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Offline ABX

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I never heard the phrase virtue signaling till this last silly season. I wonder where and by whom it was first used?

I don't know the first use, but it became very common with liberals a few years ago as a way to mock people who offered 'thoughts and prayers' (instead of government solutions) when there was something like a school shooting or tragedy.

It has pretty much always been a way non-religious people mock religious people for 'prayer'.

It is hilarious when it is used against people having different actual solutions to problems- like in this case, claiming that a genocidal maniac be held account is 'virtual signaling'.

Saying someone is 'virtue signaling' is just a childish playground way of saying "I'm better than you are..."
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 07:32:11 pm by AbaraXas »

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Yeah. We should get back into the Regime Change business. Your pal GWB really hit one out of the park ending the oppression in Iraq with us taking Saddam out.

BTW I don't give a royal shit about what is going on in Kims regime. I do care about nukes being dropped on Pacific countries or our own West Coast. That being said, the best way to get things normalized there isn't to start another effing war which you seem to have a fetish for. It is trying to inject some sense into the megalomaniac running North Korea. If that takes verbal stroking by the US President, that's fine by me. It won't cost one damn soldiers life.

@Frank Cannon

What the hell are you talking about, my pal GWB?  Look, Frank, I know you get off on thinking you're being all raw and everything, but you have to make sense at the same time.

I can walk and chew gum at the same time, which means I can give a damn about the people in my own country while hating the fact that chemical weapons are being tested on families in Kim's concentration camps.  You don't care?  Your problem.  But get out of my face telling me I have a war fetish for calling out Trump's absurdity.  It's probably the dumbest attempt to excuse him I've seen so far.

Offline driftdiver

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@Frank Cannon

What the hell are you talking about, my pal GWB?  Look, Frank, I know you get off on thinking you're being all raw and everything, but you have to make sense at the same time.

I can walk and chew gum at the same time, which means I can give a damn about the people in my own country while hating the fact that chemical weapons are being tested on families in Kim's concentration camps.  You don't care?  Your problem.  But get out of my face telling me I have a war fetish for calling out Trump's absurdity.  It's probably the dumbest attempt to excuse him I've seen so far.

@CatherineofAragon Fine, care about it.  Care deeply

What are you going to do about it?   Arrest him?   He rarely leaves the country nevermind that its probably not him in full control of the camps or even the govt.   His sister is even worse than he's supposed to be.  Then there is his aunt who will kill for the slightest reason, a truly evil woman.  She's the one the father and grandfather were afraid of.

So it comes down to, how do you bring down a regime full of crazy evil people who just happen to have nukes and the worst chemical and biological weapons known to mankind?   How do you do that and not start a war.

You going to condemn him and tell him you're gonna prosecute him for crimes against humanity?   Yeah, then he'll push the button to take as many of us out with him.  Or do you send our military over right next to China and try to hit all those weapons before he responds and kills tens of millions.  How many of our sons and daughters are you willing to condemn to death just so you can feel righteous about making him pay for the crimes his country has committed?

Good grief.
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Online DCPatriot

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@CatherineofAragon Fine, care about it.  Care deeply

What are you going to do about it?   Arrest him?   He rarely leaves the country nevermind that its probably not him in full control of the camps or even the govt.   His sister is even worse than he's supposed to be.  Then there is his aunt who will kill for the slightest reason, a truly evil woman.  She's the one the father and grandfather were afraid of.

So it comes down to, how do you bring down a regime full of crazy evil people who just happen to have nukes and the worst chemical and biological weapons known to mankind?   How do you do that and not start a war.

You going to condemn him and tell him you're gonna prosecute him for crimes against humanity?   Yeah, then he'll push the button to take as many of us out with him.  Or do you send our military over right next to China and try to hit all those weapons before he responds and kills tens of millions.  How many of our sons and daughters are you willing to condemn to death just so you can feel righteous about making him pay for the crimes his country has committed?

Good grief.

@txradioguy

Feeling sorry that everybody's ignored you thus far....about your moral equivalency comment.

Suggest you read this.  Twice.   

 

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Offline ABX

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Yeah. We should get back into the Regime Change business. Your pal GWB really hit one out of the park ending the oppression in Iraq with us taking Saddam out.

BTW I don't give a royal shit about what is going on in Kims regime. I do care about nukes being dropped on Pacific countries or our own West Coast. That being said, the best way to get things normalized there isn't to start another effing war which you seem to have a fetish for. It is trying to inject some sense into the megalomaniac running North Korea. If that takes verbal stroking by the US President, that's fine by me. It won't cost one damn soldiers life.


The options aren't Iraq-modeled regime change versus appeasement and recognition. At that, neither are the right options here.

The starvation model, which we were doing, was working. Isolate and starve them out. Get them to the point that they can't afford to be a threat and that they get so fed-up they regime change themselves.  Add to that, throwing some carrots and/or demands on China to deal with their puppet add to this.

That's also the least risk and expense for us.

Instead it seems we bailed on that model and went with the appeasement/recognition model.

Conservatives have warned for decades, especially when appeasement type liberals were in power, that recognition is exactly what the NORK regime wants. And we just gave it to them. It just legitimized a genocidal maniac and even gave 'security' assurances to him and promised him some Trump Beach Resorts.

This was Bill Clinton level action. Even Obama didn't go this far.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:12:08 pm by AbaraXas »

Offline txradioguy

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@txradioguy

Feeling sorry that everybody's ignored you thus far....about your moral equivalency comment.

Suggest you read this.  Twice.   

Actually my life doesn't revolve around whether or not someone replies to any certain comment on here.

The fact that..as you claim no one has commented on it... except you...pretty much tells me it's on the mark and that no further comment from anyone was necessary.

You and the ones using the moral equivalency card certainly didn't want to say anything more than what you had up to that point for fear of further illustrating the point I was getting at.

But since you decided to come out from behind DD's skirt to  :tongue2: my direction about my comment I guess it must have hit kinda close to home.

Not go back to pulling wings off of flies.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline driftdiver

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The options aren't Iraq-modeled regime change versus appeasement and recognition. At that, neither are the right options here.

The starvation model, which we were doing, was working. Isolate and starve them out. Get them to the point that they can't afford to be a threat and that they get so fed-up they regime change themselves.  Add to that, throwing some carrots and/or demands on China to deal with their puppet add to this.

That's also the least risk and expense for us.

Instead it seems we bailed on that model and went with the appeasement/recognition model.

Conservatives have warned for decades, especially when appeasement type liberals were in power, that recognition is exactly what the NORK regime wants. And we just gave it to them. It just legitimized a genocidal maniac and even gave 'security' assurances to him and promised him some Trump Beach Resorts.

This was Bill Clinton level action. Even Obama didn't go this far.

@AbaraXas
At what point do you think the starvation model is going to work?  Clinton tried this plus appeasement and failed.  Bush tried and failed.  Obama tried and failed. 

Sure it puts pressure on the regime, a lot of pressure.  But this regime spends 22 -23% of its GDP on its military.  If their military needs food they go to peoples houses and take it.   If someone speaks out against the govt that whole family gets sent to the camps.  Pretty hard to start a coup in a prison camp where you search through cow dung hoping to find a couple kernels of undigested corn.

South Koreans tell me he would rather die then be pushed out by the US.  So if he think's we'll try to pull a Libya on him, he'll go out in a blaze of glory.   He'll do his utmost to take as many of us out as he can.  Maybe he won't actually try but knowing the culture I wouldn't bet against it. 

Maybe we can send in Delta force to assassinate the top 2 million people who run the country.   Maybe we can actually find all of his WMD weapons sites and artillery sites and scud sites and hit 500,000 targets all at the same time.

6 months ago everyone was lambasting Trump for his rocketman comments.  "He's gonna start a war", yeah we heard that a few times.    Now he's trying the peaceful approach and its you all clamoring for war.
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Offline driftdiver

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Actually my life doesn't revolve around whether or not someone replies to any certain comment on here.

The fact that..as you claim no one has commented on it... except you...pretty much tells me it's on the mark and that no further comment from anyone was necessary.

You and the ones using the moral equivalency card certainly didn't want to say anything more than what you had up to that point for fear of further illustrating the point I was getting at.

But since you decided to come out from behind DD's skirt to  :tongue2: my direction about my comment I guess it must have hit kinda close to home.

Not go back to pulling wings off of flies.

@txradioguy @DCPatriot
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Offline txradioguy

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The options aren't Iraq-modeled regime change versus appeasement and recognition. At that, neither are the right options here.

The starvation model, which we were doing, was working. Isolate and starve them out. Get them to the point that they can't afford to be a threat and that they get so fed-up they regime change themselves.  Add to that, throwing some carrots and/or demands on China to deal with their puppet add to this.

That's also the least risk and expense for us.

Instead it seems we bailed on that model and went with the appeasement/recognition model.

Conservatives have warned for decades, especially when appeasement type liberals were in power, that recognition is exactly what the NORK regime wants. And we just gave it to them. It just legitimized a genocidal maniac and even gave 'security' assurances to him and promised him some Trump Beach Resorts.

This was Bill Clinton level action. Even Obama didn't go this far.

@AbaraXas excellent summation of events up to this point.

The starvation plan was working in Iran as well until Obama started appeasing the Mad Mullahs and gave them a lifine to cling to power as well.

History seems to be repeating itself.

There are people here that would be wise to read your comments closely.

Twice.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:32:37 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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@txradioguy @DCPatriot
I don't wear skirts.   Its a kilt.



I won't even ask where you've hidden the knife.  :silly:
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline GrouchoTex

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@txradioguy

Did you hear the newest one?  Honestly, Trump cannot be this stupid.  Can he?  I'm at a loss.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/15/politics/trump-north-korea-kim-jong-un/index.html

"He's the head of the country," Trump said of Kim Friday during a live interview on Fox News' "Fox and Friends." "And I mean he's the strong head. Don't let anyone think anything different."
"He speaks and his people sit up at attention," the President added. "I want my people to do the same."

@CatherineofAragon

I read this at lunchtime today.
I'd say I was shocked, but it seems par for the course anymore.
"Newsflash: Trump says weird things".
Not so much news, nowadays.

Yet this:

"My People?"

C'mon, man!

Offline ABX

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@AbaraXas
At what point do you think the starvation model is going to work?  Clinton tried this plus appeasement and failed.  Bush tried and failed.  Obama tried and failed. 

Sure it puts pressure on the regime, a lot of pressure.  But this regime spends 22 -23% of its GDP on its military.  If their military needs food they go to peoples houses and take it.   If someone speaks out against the govt that whole family gets sent to the camps.  Pretty hard to start a coup in a prison camp where you search through cow dung hoping to find a couple kernels of undigested corn.

South Koreans tell me he would rather die then be pushed out by the US.  So if he think's we'll try to pull a Libya on him, he'll go out in a blaze of glory.   He'll do his utmost to take as many of us out as he can.  Maybe he won't actually try but knowing the culture I wouldn't bet against it. 

Maybe we can send in Delta force to assassinate the top 2 million people who run the country.   Maybe we can actually find all of his WMD weapons sites and artillery sites and scud sites and hit 500,000 targets all at the same time.

6 months ago everyone was lambasting Trump for his rocketman comments.  "He's gonna start a war", yeah we heard that a few times.    Now he's trying the peaceful approach and its you all clamoring for war.

Bill Clinton actually tried the appeasement/recognition model. He was the only other President who formally recognized the regime and signed on to their assurances.  Obama even had tried the appeasement/recognition model a bit by opening up travel and financial restrictions to allow some US celebrities to go over there.

The starvation model had been working with the Trump administration. We had even gotten China recently on board and they had even started cutting off coal shipments. Other than (before this) Clinton and Obama's missteps in recognizing their regime, the starvation and isolation model had worked- keeping them pushed down into the corner and something that can easily be managed.  If history plays out the way I suspect, Trump just sabotaged the progress he made. He just legitimized the current NORK regime, provided assurances, and emboldened them not to change from within. What we've seen in the past week, their media and even the South Korean and other regional media are calling this a win for NORK- not for us.

We just seem to be following the same mistakes Bill Clinton made in 2000 - only this time louder and with a red hat.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:39:43 pm by AbaraXas »

Offline ABX

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@txradioguy

Did you hear the newest one?  Honestly, Trump cannot be this stupid.  Can he?  I'm at a loss.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/15/politics/trump-north-korea-kim-jong-un/index.html

"He's the head of the country," Trump said of Kim Friday during a live interview on Fox News' "Fox and Friends." "And I mean he's the strong head. Don't let anyone think anything different."
"He speaks and his people sit up at attention," the President added. "I want my people to do the same."

I missed this comment...

that has to be a joke, right?  There is no way...

...oh never mind...

Offline txradioguy

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I missed this comment...

that has to be a joke, right?  There is no way...

...oh never mind...

Sadly it wasn't a joke. Our president seems to admire strong dictators.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline ABX

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Sadly it wasn't a joke. Our president seems to admire strong dictators.

You know, after hearing the arguments for a year, I guess there is a point. If he has to be a strong arm to MAGA, who cares about liberty and rights. Whatever to get us more money in our pockets and promises of peace.

Offline Frank Cannon

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@Frank Cannon

What the hell are you talking about, my pal GWB?  Look, Frank, I know you get off on thinking you're being all raw and everything, but you have to make sense at the same time.

I can walk and chew gum at the same time, which means I can give a damn about the people in my own country while hating the fact that chemical weapons are being tested on families in Kim's concentration camps.  You don't care?  Your problem.  But get out of my face telling me I have a war fetish for calling out Trump's absurdity.  It's probably the dumbest attempt to excuse him I've seen so far.

I thought I was god damn clear. Let me boil this down some more for you. We are down to two moves with Kim. War or peace. All this other ancillary shit about how people are treated in his country is meaningless. He has/had nuclear capabilities. I don't want him to use them on the civilized world. If that takes the President giving this guy a french kiss, I don't care. I also don't care about his own people because as I brought up earlier, he has/had nuclear capabilities that trump all this Amnesty International bullshit. Let the Japan, China and South Korea work on that. They have a dog in this fight too. The US should only focus on solving the nuclear problem and we can all hope for the best with the internment camps, but not focus on it.

Offline corbe

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   Trump later said it was a Joke/Sarcasm.....
   When I say stupid stuff here and later try to bail out with the Joke/Sarcasm excuse, some of you Briefers never let up on me. /JS
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Online Maj. Bill Martin

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I don't know the first use, but it became very common with liberals a few years ago as a way to mock people who offered 'thoughts and prayers' (instead of government solutions) when there was something like a school shooting or tragedy.

It has pretty much always been a way non-religious people mock religious people for 'prayer'.

It is hilarious when it is used against people having different actual solutions to problems- like in this case, claiming that a genocidal maniac be held account is 'virtual signaling'.

Saying someone is 'virtue signaling' is just a childish playground way of saying "I'm better than you are..."

Funny - my understanding of virtue signalling is just a little bit different.

I've always considered "virtue signalling" to be when someone rushes to condemn someone else action or statement so as to portray themselves as virtuous by comparison.  It is especially applicable when there is no substantive course of action proposed, and the only apparent purpose is to register public objection.

That's why I brought it up when people complained about Trump not raising the issue of human rights in North Korea, as if him pushing that issue would actually accomplish something productive.  In truth, it would have the exact opposite effect, and lead the North Koreans to believe that we want to interfere in their internal affairs at the exact same time we are trying to get them to end their nuclear program.

So, people know it would be counter productive, but criticize Trump for not bringing it up anyway.  Thus, signalling how much more virtuous they are than Trump when it comes to caring about human rights.

Offline ABX

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Funny - my understanding of virtue signalling is just a little bit different.

I've always considered "virtue signalling" to be when someone rushes to condemn someone else action or statement so as to portray themselves as virtuous by comparison.  It is especially applicable when there is no substantive course of action proposed, and the only apparent purpose is to register public objection.

That's why I brought it up when people complained about Trump not raising the issue of human rights in North Korea, as if him pushing that issue would actually accomplish something productive.  In truth, it would have the exact opposite effect, and lead the North Koreans to believe that we want to interfere in their internal affairs at the exact same time we are trying to get them to end their nuclear program.

So, people know it would be counter productive, but criticize Trump for not bringing it up anyway.  Thus, signalling how much more virtuous they are than Trump when it comes to caring about human rights.

What you described in the bold section is not virtual signaling or even close, that's called accountability.

Virtual signaling would be you saying you are sending 'thoughts and prayers' for unicorn sparkles to come out of the meeting.

Expecting leaders not give genocidal maniacs the recognition they desire is called accountability and is exactly what is expected in a Representative Republic where the citizens are sovereign and the national leaders are our representatives, not our rulers.

And to the specific point you made- if anyone at any time had the imperative to make a point about genocide and human rights abuses, this would be the time. Not doing so sends a message we will recognize you and your state in spite of that. It would be like offering Jeffery Dahmer to overlook what he did (not even bring it up) and a meal of his choosing if he promises to not kill anyone else.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 09:52:57 pm by AbaraXas »

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Funny - my understanding of virtue signalling is just a little bit different.

I've always considered "virtue signalling" to be when someone rushes to condemn someone else action or statement so as to portray themselves as virtuous by comparison.  It is especially applicable when there is no substantive course of action proposed, and the only apparent purpose is to register public objection.

That's why I brought it up when people complained about Trump not raising the issue of human rights in North Korea, as if him pushing that issue would actually accomplish something productive.  In truth, it would have the exact opposite effect, and lead the North Koreans to believe that we want to interfere in their internal affairs at the exact same time we are trying to get them to end their nuclear program.

So, people know it would be counter productive, but criticize Trump for not bringing it up anyway.  Thus, signalling how much more virtuous they are than Trump when it comes to caring about human rights.

Exactly @Maj. Bill Martin  :thumbsup:

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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The starvation model, which we were doing, was working. Isolate and starve them out. Get them to the point that they can't afford to be a threat and that they get so fed-up they regime change themselves. That's also the least risk and expense for us.

Okay, that's one vote for Obama and Kerry's policy of "strategic patience."

And what happens when such a regime has nuclear weapons, and is willing to keep starving their unarmed people while they develop and test ballistic missiles capable of carrying one of those warheads to the United States?  Because that's what happened for the last 8 years.

Obama, Kerry, and you are assuming that the inevitable end result of the "starvation" strategy is that the regime accepts its fate, allows itself to be eventually overthrown, and its leadership executed.  You assume the leadership is willing to go quietly into that goodnight, without upsetting tea-time in the outside world.

I'm not.  They would be a cornered, extremely desperate, nuclear-armed beast.

Quote
Conservatives have warned for decades, especially when appeasement type liberals were in power, that recognition is exactly what the NORK regime wants.


Of what tangible value is "recognition"?  If we don't "recognize" North Korea, does that mean it doesn't exist?  "Non-recognition" of North Korea was a stupid policy.

Quote
This was Bill Clinton level action. Even Obama didn't go this far.

You have gotten it exactly backwards.  Bill Clinton lifted sanctions, helped them build two nuclear reactors, and shipped them oil. Obama's ridiculous policy of "strategic patience" - which you esssentially endorsed - permitted them to make massive strides in both warheads and ballistic missiles.

Trump has given them nothing but empty words.  All sanctions are still in place, and they haven't gotten a dime.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 10:39:10 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline aligncare

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@CatherineofAragon

I read this at lunchtime today.
I'd say I was shocked, but it seems par for the course anymore.
"Newsflash: Trump says weird things".
Not so much news, nowadays.

Yet this:

"My People?"

C'mon, man!

Donald Trump doesn’t just say weird things, he says weird things differently. He speaks a sorta short hand in a regional speech pattern. That’s been apparent since he first entered the race when he announced Mexicans were rapists and drug dealers – or so the media said he said.

He’s just not a liberal arts kind of guy, that’s all. He went straight to business college. I doubt he cared much about elocution. Ever hear how the financial guys on Wall Street talk? They could make construction workers blush. On top of that, factor in the media putting their own negative spin into every headline and around every Trump quote. Most folks read “my people” without hearing horns dramatically punctuate them: dunt-dunt-daaah!

Remember Trump’s a blunt instrument, try listening to him without parsing everything. You might gain a new perspective of the man.

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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What you described in the bold section is not virtual signaling or even close, that's called accountability.

How do empty words that are ignored hold anyone "accountable"?

Quote
And to the specific point you made- if anyone at any time had the imperative to make a point about genocide and human rights abuses, this would be the time. Not doing so sends a message we will recognize you and your state in spite of that.

Are you willing to let our insistence on human rights scuttle a potential agreement on nuclear weapons?  Because I'm not.  And if you are, that's our key point of disagreement.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 10:47:21 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »