BREAKING>>>Active Shooter At Santa Fe, Tx High School

[Bigun]

This whole thing really has me sad. The first shooter as far as I know was in the early 80s, was a teenage girl and inspired the song "I don't like Mondays" by Sir Bob Geldorf.

I'm just guessing because I really haven't studied Sociology, but maybe the decline of the family like it was in the 50s contributed to this?

We need family values. People who value each other and don't view love as a one night stand. No more baby daddies.

This kind of thing was exceedingly rare prior to 1964 and the advent of the "Great Society".  Draw your own conclusions.

[Elderberry]

2004? You sound like a neighbor too.

@AllThatJazzZ

I'm up at Hobby. I shoot down 2004 when I go down to the beach. Mostly 3AM  or so when I go flounder gigging. I hadn't gone in a long while though.

[Gefn]

This kind of thing was exceedingly rare prior to 1964 and the advent of the "Great Society".  Draw your own conclusions.

That's what I was trying to say. You said it more succinctly @Bigun
Thank you.

[Bigun]

That's what I was trying to say. You said it more succinctly @Bigun
Thank you.

 

[jmyrlefuller]

If I'm reading this right, this wasn't a Newtown-style massacre, but a targeted killing, presaged by abusive obsession from the killer, who went postal in part because one particular person dared resist his advances.

I've always said that the public schools are a toxic social environment, and that they have no idea how to teach students how to socialize and cooperate with each other in a civilized manner. Clearly this kid never knew when to take no for an answer and move on. (Besides, what would make him think it was a good idea? "Hey, I know how I'm going to improve my lot in life! I'm going to slaughter everyone who wronged me and make myself a violent felon! Yeah, that's the ticket." Seriously, what did he think was going to happen? Maybe he thought he would take himself out, but really, did he think his situation was so hopeless that things wouldn't get better after high school?)

But please, teachers' unions, tell us all how it's all a conspiracy between the NRA and the Republican Party to slaughter children. 

[Victoria33]

Bullying and child abuse have been redefined so that a harmless teasing is now bullying and trying to correct your child's bad behavior is now child abuse. 
As for corporal punishment -- if it was necessary, my parents gave me a swat on the rear.  Paddling was still allowed in school until I was in the sixth grade. IMHO, once paddling was outlawed, that was when kids started turning out as selfish, spoiled brats as adults. Now, if you even raise your voice at your child, he or she can turn you in to the authorities.  Kids are already the property of the state.  The parents have no control.   And they wonder why the kids are turning into drug addicts, murderers and terrorists.

@Applewood
@mystery-ak 

I grew up in a time where paddling students was the norm.  When I started to school my parents said if I got in trouble with a teacher, I would get double that when I got home.

Paddling was still the norm when my son was in elementary school.  When he was in the 5th grade, son told me if he got sent to the principal for a paddling, he would say this before principal paddled him: "Forgive him for he knows not what he does."

That elementary school was one of several I was assigned to do psychological testing of students, if required.  I called the principal and told him what son said.  After he quit laughing, he said son would never be one sent to his office.

[Sanguine]

If I'm reading this right, this wasn't a Newtown-style massacre, but a targeted killing, presaged by abusive obsession from the killer, who went postal in part because one particular person dared resist his advances.

I've always said that the public schools are a toxic social environment, and that they have no idea how to teach students how to socialize and cooperate with each other in a civilized manner. Clearly this kid never knew when to take no for an answer and move on. (Besides, what would make him think it was a good idea? "Hey, I know how I'm going to improve my lot in life! I'm going to slaughter everyone who wronged me and make myself a violent felon! Yeah, that's the ticket." Seriously, what did he think was going to happen? Maybe he thought he would take himself out, but really, did he think his situation was so hopeless that things wouldn't get better after high school?)

But please, teachers' unions, tell us all how it's all a conspiracy between the NRA and the Republican Party to slaughter children. 

Good points.  We don't teach children that rejection is a normal part of life and how to deal with it.  It's the trophies for showing up stuff.  You shouldn't get a trophy unless you did something to earn it.  Not only do we not teach it, we actively seek to shield children from consequences of their actions and the vagaries of life.  No surprise that this is what we get.

[Applewood]

@Applewood
@mystery-ak 

I grew up in a time where paddling students was the norm.  When I started to school my parents said if I got in trouble with a teacher, I would get double that when I got home.

I never had to experience paddling, but my Dad told me in his day, he too would get punished twice for wrongdoing -- once at school and again when he got home.  In my grandfather's view, if the teacher or principal said you did wrong, then you did wrong. No denials.  No excuses.  He didn't run to school to complain about the teacher or principal as parents do today.   

[LauraTXNM]

For anyone who is interested in the mindset of young men like the Toronto killer, Elliot Rogers, and possibly this kid, the first twenty minutes are interviews with several "incels".  Any opinions on whether most teens and twenty-somethings are this clueless?

It's the first segment of the program.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswr5j

[Suppressed]

I grew up before ADD was invented thank God.

It was referred to as "Minimal Brain Dysfunction" back then.

[verga]

I never had to experience paddling, but my Dad told me in his day, he too would get punished twice for wrongdoing -- once at school and again when he got home.  In my grandfather's view, if the teacher or principal said you did wrong, then you did wrong. No denials.  No excuses.  He didn't run to school to complain about the teacher or principal as parents do today.

about 12 years ago we tried to do an adoption of 3 siblings. I made it ear to their teachers that if the children got in trouble in school they would get worse when they got home. The second grade teacher was absolutely shocked by that and told me that he shouldn't be punished twice for the same offense. I told her that I promised not to tell her how to run her class, if she promised not to tell me how to raise my children. She seemed quite taken aback by that.

[AllThatJazzZ]

This kind of thing was exceedingly rare prior to 1964 and the advent of the "Great Society".  Draw your own conclusions.

@Bigun
@Freya

Let's go back a little earlier than '64...

Banned: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and beg Thy blessings upon us, our teachers, and our country."

Result:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1No--GpdqCY

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I think it is human nature to ask "Why"?
Most of us feel that if we knew, we could stop future attacks, which is a reasonable assumption.
I read this piece in  National Review, while not very comforting, it does offer an explanation.

www.nationalreview.com/corner/why-do-mass-shootings-happen-best-explanation/

Some whys will only be known when we meet our Maker.

Man cannot fathom all things.

[DCPatriot]

Some whys will only be known when we meet our Maker.

Man cannot fathom all things.

Violent video games played 10 hours per day?   No corporal punishment in schools?

Please leave "our Maker" out of this one.   

[mountaineer]

Good points.  We don't teach children that rejection is a normal part of life and how to deal with it.  It's the trophies for showing up stuff.  You shouldn't get a trophy unless you did something to earn it.  Not only do we not teach it, we actively seek to shield children from consequences of their actions and the vagaries of life.  No surprise that this is what we get.

Seems to me that today's children are not taught how to deal with rejection, loss (e.g., not keeping score in sports) or death. They also are not taught that bad acts - theirs or anyone else's - have consequences. Parents don't punish because Junior won't "like" them if they take away his iPhone or some other toy. Parents are too busy trying to be a pal to their offspring. Schools can't punish because parents will file lawsuits.

Mr. M and I were talking about this on the drive home from vacation yesterday. Children really seem dumbfounded by the notion that there are consequences to their actions. I observed that they can't learn self-discipline if they never were disciplined by a parent (not just punishment for bad acts, but things like doing chores, getting up in time for school, etc.).

[GrouchoTex]

Seems to me that today's children are not taught how to deal with rejection, loss (e.g., not keeping score in sports) or death. They also are not taught that bad acts - theirs or anyone else's - have consequences. Parents don't punish because Junior won't "like" them if they take away his iPhone or some other toy. Parents are too busy trying to be a pal to their offspring. Schools can't punish because parents will file lawsuits.

Mr. M and I were talking about this on the drive home from vacation yesterday. Children really seem dumbfounded by the notion that there are consequences to their actions. I observed that they can't learn self-discipline if they never were disciplined by a parent (not just punishment for bad acts, but things like doing chores, getting up in time for school, etc.).

There is a template now, that this kids follow, and it isn't good.
Think of a riot mentality.
You'd never break that store front window, unless someone else does it.
Maybe you hold out until the 10th or 100th does it, then, it's no big deal.
Everyone is doing it.

The clearest thing we have to a motive is that a girl rejected his advances.
This should not be an issue, but it became one for the shooter.
Now, these kids are killing over a perceived wrongs.
They can imagine that they are being wronged, or just make it up.
Now, having several examples of violence to choose from, they seek their revenge, whether the "wrong" was real or not.
Frightening.

How do we fix this?

[Sanguine]

Seems to me that today's children are not taught how to deal with rejection, loss (e.g., not keeping score in sports) or death. They also are not taught that bad acts - theirs or anyone else's - have consequences. Parents don't punish because Junior won't "like" them if they take away his iPhone or some other toy. Parents are too busy trying to be a pal to their offspring. Schools can't punish because parents will file lawsuits.

Mr. M and I were talking about this on the drive home from vacation yesterday. Children really seem dumbfounded by the notion that there are consequences to their actions. I observed that they can't learn self-discipline if they never were disciplined by a parent (not just punishment for bad acts, but things like doing chores, getting up in time for school, etc.).

[thackney]

Seems to me that today's children are not taught how to deal with rejection, loss (e.g., not keeping score in sports) or death. They also are not taught that bad acts - theirs or anyone else's - have consequences. Parents don't punish because Junior won't "like" them if they take away his iPhone or some other toy. Parents are too busy trying to be a pal to their offspring. Schools can't punish because parents will file lawsuits.

Mr. M and I were talking about this on the drive home from vacation yesterday. Children really seem dumbfounded by the notion that there are consequences to their actions. I observed that they can't learn self-discipline if they never were disciplined by a parent (not just punishment for bad acts, but things like doing chores, getting up in time for school, etc.).

The following is posted at the barn where my kids rodeo coach teaches:



It is an important lesson that too many kids don't know how to accept criticism and failure.  They have to learn to take that in, then move forward in a positive manner.  It isn't automatic but a learned response.  It doesn't have to be sports but something they have to work to succeed is a life lesson everyone needs.

With that said, the Santa Fe shooter was on the JV football team.  He played for more than a year on a football team.  I don't know his home life but he has been exposed to dealing with criticism and failure.

[driftdiver]

Seems to me that today's children are not taught how to deal with rejection, loss (e.g., not keeping score in sports) or death. They also are not taught that bad acts - theirs or anyone else's - have consequences. Parents don't punish because Junior won't "like" them if they take away his iPhone or some other toy. Parents are too busy trying to be a pal to their offspring. Schools can't punish because parents will file lawsuits.

Mr. M and I were talking about this on the drive home from vacation yesterday. Children really seem dumbfounded by the notion that there are consequences to their actions. I observed that they can't learn self-discipline if they never were disciplined by a parent (not just punishment for bad acts, but things like doing chores, getting up in time for school, etc.).

@mountaineer
Kids today aren't any different then kids from 20, 30, or 50 years ago.   They are just as confused, awkward and prone to making stupid decisions as those way back when before the wheel was invented.

Whats different is families are weaker, morals are weaker, and kids (boys especially) aren't allowed to blow off steam.  So they bottle it up until they break.

heck when I was in high school there was almost a school shooting.  Only stopped by a girl who talked the guy out of it.

[mountaineer]

With that said, the Santa Fe shooter was on the JV football team.  He played for more than a year on a football team.  I don't know his home life but he has been exposed to dealing with criticism and failure.

I agree with you that sports should have taught  those lessons. According to some reports, however, the school's athletic coaches were among the worst at belittling this kid and calling him a loser. If true, it's outrageous that any teacher or coach would be so abusive.

[thackney]

I agree with you that sports should have taught  those lessons. According to some reports, however, the school's athletic coaches were among the worst at belittling this kid and calling him a loser. If true, it's outrageous that any teacher or coach would be so abusive.

While I've read some of those initial stories, I've read enough follow up with named, not anonymous, accounting that his treatment was normal along with everyone else. 

He was a quiet kid and a bit of an outsider.  The "goth like" black trenchcoat would attract some typical teenage comments, but not the continuous heaped on abuse some first claimed.

[driftdiver]

While I've read some of those initial stories, I've read enough follow up with named, not anonymous, accounting that his treatment was normal along with everyone else. 

He was a quiet kid and a bit of an outsider.  The "goth like" black trenchcoat would attract some typical teenage comments, but not the continuous heaped on abuse some first claimed.

@thackney
IMO all the media attention is a factor.   Kids see the other shooters getting on the news and getting all the attention and that triggers them.   

[thackney]

@thackney
IMO all the media attention is a factor.   Kids see the other shooters getting on the news and getting all the attention and that triggers them.

I believe that is true. 

[dfwgator]

@mountaineer
Kids today aren't any different then kids from 20, 30, or 50 years ago.   They are just as confused, awkward and prone to making stupid decisions as those way back when before the wheel was invented.

Whats different is families are weaker, morals are weaker, and kids (boys especially) aren't allowed to blow off steam.  So they bottle it up until they break.

heck when I was in high school there was almost a school shooting.  Only stopped by a girl who talked the guy out of it.

What's different is that every time something like this happens,  we get wall-to-wall 24/7 news coverage.  In the past, the news usually didn't make it past the local market, and we didn't hear about it.

[GrouchoTex]

What's different is that every time something like this happens,  we get wall-to-wall 24/7 news coverage.  In the past, the news usually didn't make it past the local market, and we didn't hear about it.

True, and I think this plays a big role in why they are continuing, the "fame" factor.