Author Topic: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat  (Read 3086 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,534
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2018, 02:00:01 pm »
Love it!

I think a lot of people who are complaining about how getting tough on China will hurt them and is wrong don't realize the critical technology that is being transferred to them. Doing business in China means you turn over 51% ownership of the business to them and they have access to all your technology.

It's costing U.S. business something in the neighborhood of $600 billion a year in profit.

Ask the American based semiconductor company that partnered with China how the ChiComs do business.  The deal lasted long enough for the Chinese to get all the info on how to make the American companies product...then it was broken and the ChiComs are now selling the American companies product for 20% cheaper.

The Chinese steal tech and save years on R&D which allows them to sell the stolen technology at a cut rate price.


Quote
Is it any surprise that their latest fighter jet looks so much like ours?

They hacked into the computers for subcontractors on both the F-22 and the F-35 which allowed them to access ALL of the plans from the primary contractors on both planes and steal the blueprints.  This went on for a couple years IIRC.

Quote
Also, in China industries that they deem are of critical importance to the state are not allowed to have any foreign investment in it.

What we have to remember too is that all of the stolen copied and forged tech they get from us is all going towards one goal...the improvement and upgrade of their military forces in order to do what we're seeing in the Pacific right now and to eventually stage an attack on Taiwan in order to recapture the island.

All of those islands they're building are obstacles we're going to have to fight through to come to Taiwan's rescue should the need arise.

Like with everything...China is playing the long game.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,878
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2018, 02:05:04 pm »
It's costing U.S. business something in the neighborhood of $600 billion a year in profit.

Ask the American based semiconductor company that partnered with China how the ChiComs do business.  The deal lasted long enough for the Chinese to get all the info on how to make the American companies product...then it was broken and the ChiComs are now selling the American companies product for 20% cheaper.

The Chinese steal tech and save years on R&D which allows them to sell the stolen technology at a cut rate price.


They hacked into the computers for subcontractors on both the F-22 and the F-35 which allowed them to access ALL of the plans from the primary contractors on both planes and steal the blueprints.  This went on for a couple years IIRC.

What we have to remember too is that all of the stolen copied and forged tech they get from us is all going towards one goal...the improvement and upgrade of their military forces in order to do what we're seeing in the Pacific right now and to eventually stage an attack on Taiwan in order to recapture the island.

All of those islands they're building are obstacles we're going to have to fight through to come to Taiwan's rescue should the need arise.

Like with everything...China is playing the long game.
A lot of those islands they are building are the expansion of existing real estate or piled on a seamount. Which means there is a serious possibility of oil and gas accumulations in the geology near by. That's just another piece of that puzzle, in addition to the obvious strategic military presence. Once those wells are drilled, despite the disputed claims to mineral rights and territorial waters, the Chinese will be able to claim they have 'vital interests' they are defending. Movement of oil and gas equipment could also screen the shipment of military assets as well.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline ABX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 900
  • Words full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2018, 02:05:33 pm »
So no farmers near you take govt subsidies?   I find that hard to believe.   Every farmer I've ever met took them with both hands.

I do find it ironic one of the big complaints we have regarding China making the playing field 'unfair' is because they subsidize industries... yet.. well here we have been doing the same thing.

We really don't have room to complain. The government needs to but out of all of it (yes, including subsidies) and let the people and markets decide.

Offline txradioguy

  • Propaganda NCOIC
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,534
  • Gender: Male
  • Rule #39
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2018, 02:18:38 pm »
A lot of those islands they are building are the expansion of existing real estate or piled on a seamount. Which means there is a serious possibility of oil and gas accumulations in the geology near by. That's just another piece of that puzzle, in addition to the obvious strategic military presence. Once those wells are drilled, despite the disputed claims to mineral rights and territorial waters, the Chinese will be able to claim they have 'vital interests' they are defending. Movement of oil and gas equipment could also screen the shipment of military assets as well.

They have expanded their definition of territorial waters to mean 500 miles from the nearest Chinese mainland beach.  We've got the Philippine and the Vietnamese governments looking to us to help reclaim territory the ChiComs now claim as their own.

The aerial photos I've seen on some of these man made islands have hangars barracks and runways long enough to handle their medium bomber fleet.  A couple of them now have the capability to support deep water PLAN warships too.

It would also give them the ability to either shut down or highly tax the $5 trillion (4.25 trillion euros) in traded goods and a third of all maritime traffic worldwide passes through its waters each year.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,878
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2018, 02:33:23 pm »
They have expanded their definition of territorial waters to mean 500 miles from the nearest Chinese mainland beach.  We've got the Philippine and the Vietnamese governments looking to us to help reclaim territory the ChiComs now claim as their own.

The aerial photos I've seen on some of these man made islands have hangars barracks and runways long enough to handle their medium bomber fleet.  A couple of them now have the capability to support deep water PLAN warships too.

It would also give them the ability to either shut down or highly tax the $5 trillion (4.25 trillion euros) in traded goods and a third of all maritime traffic worldwide passes through its waters each year.
I have only seen one or two images which (early) on showed airstrips. I am sure those have been further expanded.

When you mention it, if the claimed territorial limits are permitted to stand, that affects not only trade but fisheries as well. The effects on other nations in the region could be huge. Not to mention the legal piracy of 'taxation' which would make the Somalis look like pikers.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2018, 02:43:25 pm »
I do find it ironic one of the big complaints we have regarding China making the playing field 'unfair' is because they subsidize industries... yet.. well here we have been doing the same thing.

We really don't have room to complain. The government needs to but out of all of it (yes, including subsidies) and let the people and markets decide.

@AbaraXas
All cultures are equal eh.  The Chinese tend to shoot those who disagree with their govt.   They've done it for thousands of years, well ok about 500 but before the gun was invented they either buried them alive or cut their heads off.

Could we complain after they cut our heads off?
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline ABX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 900
  • Words full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2018, 02:48:46 pm »
@AbaraXas
All cultures are equal eh.  The Chinese tend to shoot those who disagree with their govt.   They've done it for thousands of years, well ok about 500 but before the gun was invented they either buried them alive or cut their heads off.

Could we complain after they cut our heads off?

Hyperbole much?

We are talking about the government subsidizing industries, not cutting off people's heads.

But even your hyperbole can be turned around. If China is the type of place to go around cutting off people's heads who disagree, why the hell would we follow their lead economically and have a big centralized government prop up businesses and choose winners and losers though subsidies?

We should be doing the opposite, not the same thing.

Offline DB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,473
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2018, 06:17:21 pm »
So no farmers near you take govt subsidies?   I find that hard to believe.   Every farmer I've ever met took them with both hands.

My sister gets ZERO subsidies for her small farm. She grows fruit and produce mainly with virtually all of it sold locally.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,746
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2018, 08:08:46 pm »
So no farmers near you take govt subsidies?   I find that hard to believe.   Every farmer I've ever met took them with both hands.
Well, I do not get subsidies for sure, but that is not what I replied to which follows in your words:

Quote
Most farmers anymore are corporate and not the family farms of old. I am certainly not, and neither are the ones close to me with very few exceptions The average farm size is over 1000 acres.  That is already proven incorrect by the USDA source I referenced.

Whether its owned by agribusiness or a family owned corporation I am neither nor or the farmers close to me they are experts at getting government handouts. That may true be for Iowa, but certainly not where I live. Trump has proposed cutting $38 billion in subsidies.

No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,746
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2018, 08:12:46 pm »
@IsailedawayfromFR

Similar to you providing some facts, in Reply #8, I posted a press release from the USDA that noted 88% of US farms are small, family farms.  The facts are clear, but unfortunately, there's obviously a lot of "fake news" out there.
Yeah, and some people that hail from Iowa believe that how Iowa goes, so goes the entire farming of the USA.

What he is confusing is how much of the entire farm crop comes from large, corporate entities.  It is unquestionably huge.  In spite of that, most farms are small and family owned, which represent a smaller portion of the crop, but a lot of people engaged in farming.

@Concerned
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2018, 08:24:32 pm »
Well, I do not get subsidies for sure, but that is not what I replied to which follows in your words:

@IsailedawayfromFR

If you sell wheat, corn, soybeans or several other crops then you are benefiting from govt subsidies since they prop up the price of those crops.

If you have crop insurance you get a subsidy.

Thats just two.

Farmers are really good at playing the sympathy card.   I don't buy it.  here's one source https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/08/11/farms-are-gigantic-now-even-the-family-owned-ones/?utm_term=.a31931343460

It all comes down to the definition of 'family'.

Heres a USDA source - https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2017/march/large-family-farms-continue-to-dominate-us-agricultural-production/

"Production has been shifting to larger farms for many years. Family and nonfamily farms with over $1 million in GCFI accounted for half of the value of U.S. farm production in 2015, up from about a third in 1991."

"Small family and nonfamily farms accounted for 46 percent of production in 1991, but by 2015, that share had fallen under 25 percent."

"Cropland has also shifted to larger farms. For example, the midpoint size—the farm size that marks the middle of the distribution of cropland—was 589 acres in 1982. This means that half of U.S. cropland was on farms that operated under 589 acres, and the other half was on farms that operated over 589 acres. As cropland shifts to relatively large farms, the midpoint increases—as it has done steadily over the last 30 years—reaching 1,234 acres by 2012."

Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Concerned

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,848
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2018, 08:36:26 pm »
Yeah, and some people that hail from Iowa believe that how Iowa goes, so goes the entire farming of the USA.

What he is confusing is how much of the entire farm crop comes from large, corporate entities.  It is unquestionably huge.  In spite of that, most farms are small and family owned, which represent a smaller portion of the crop, but a lot of people engaged in farming.

@Concerned

@IsailedawayfromFR

There's no question that a lot of vegetables and dairy comes from big farms.   As I noted from the USDA data in Reply#8:  "64 percent of all vegetable sales and 66 percent of all dairy sales come from the 3 percent of farms that are large or very large family farms"; however, to say that "Most farmers anymore are corporate and not the family farms of old" is obviously just factually untrue.  Sure a majority of "production" is produced by large farms, but as for small family farms themselves, as I also noted in the USDA data, 88% of US farms (or 1.85M) were small family farms in 2015.  The facts are clear to anyone who actually wants to have an honest dialogue on this topic.  Most US farms are small, family farms period.
I adore facts and data and abhor lies and liars.

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2018, 08:40:03 pm »
@IsailedawayfromFR

There's no question that a lot of vegetables and dairy comes from big farms.   As I noted from the USDA data in Reply#8:  "64 percent of all vegetable sales and 66 percent of all dairy sales come from the 3 percent of farms that are large or very large family farms"; however, to say that "Most farmers anymore are corporate and not the family farms of old" is obviously just factually untrue.  Sure a majority of "production" is produced by large farms, but as for small family farms themselves, as I also noted in the USDA data, 88% of US farms (or 1.85M) were small family farms in 2015.  The facts are clear to anyone who actually wants to have an honest dialogue on this topic.  Most US farms are small, family farms period.

@Concerned
See my above post.  Less than 25% of production comes from small family farms.

Farmers are great at playing the sympathy card.  Have been for decades.  Its one reason we are all putting a ethanol mix in our cars.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Free Vulcan

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,798
  • Gender: Male
  • Ah, the air is so much fresher here...
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2018, 08:53:23 pm »
I doubt the farmers will understand. Things are tenuous as it in the ag economy right now.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Concerned

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,848
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2018, 08:58:12 pm »
@Concerned
See my above post.  Less than 25% of production comes from small family farms.

Farmers are great at playing the sympathy card.  Have been for decades.  Its one reason we are all putting a ethanol mix in our cars.

I saw your "post above" which is precisely why I put "production" in quotes.  The fact remains that most of my responses and most of @IsailedawayfromFR  responses were in response to your Reply #2 which stated:

Most farmers anymore are corporate and not the family farms of old.  The average farm size is over 1000 acres.

Whether its owned by agribusiness or a family owned corporation they are experts at getting government handouts.   Trump has proposed cutting $38 billion in subsidies.

"Most farmers anymore are" NOT corporate.  88% of US farms are small, family farms per the USDA as I've stated repeatedly.  Now, if you want to talk about production, fine, but that's a different subject and not what you originally posted in Reply #2.  As I noted in Reply #8, most production (of vegetables and dairy) is indeed from 3% of the large farm.  Let's keep it honest please.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 08:59:25 pm by Concerned »
I adore facts and data and abhor lies and liars.

Offline Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,763
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2018, 08:59:00 pm »
Quote
Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat

Farmers will understand that tariffs suck.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,746
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2018, 09:01:10 pm »
@Concerned
See my above post.  Less than 25% of production comes from small family farms.

Farmers are great at playing the sympathy card.  Have been for decades.  Its one reason we are all putting a ethanol mix in our cars.
can you point somewhere in my posting that I 'played a sympathy card'?

what is your problem?

I hate ethanol and only buy gas from a local farm supply that sells ethanol-free gas.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,878
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2018, 09:04:19 pm »
@Concerned
See my above post.  Less than 25% of production comes from small family farms.

Farmers are great at playing the sympathy card.  Have been for decades.  Its one reason we are all putting a ethanol mix in our cars.
Like I said up thread it depends on what you are growing. You can't pay for the equipment to farm out here on fewer than a couple of sections (two square miles, 1280 acres), and commonly those growing wheat will farm upwards of seven sections, just to make it pay a decent living when the costs and depreciation of equipment are considered. It can easily take over a million dollars in tilling and harvesting equipment, and seed loans of 100 grand are not unheard of (for seed, fertilizer, etc.), just to put the crop in.

The value of the equipment and farmland alone mandate incorporation, in order to protect the family's farm from inheritance taxes. If the owner died, he would not be able to leave the farm to a relative without the government stepping in for its share of that multimillion dollar inheritance.

How you calculate it, by separate operations, in which that 5 acre vegetable farm counts the same as that seven square mile wheat farm, both as one, there are likely more smaller operations considered family farms because they aren't worth enough to incorporate to avoid the death tax. If you want to talk about the family farms flying their own corporate flag, and include those, that acreage is huge in the midwest, and although the farms are family owned and operated, they are corporations.

If you want to count up the acres under tillage, I'd say the larger operations, family owned or not, tend to be incorporated for the reason stated above, even if they aren't owned by ADM, Monsanto, or Dekalb, they are still corporations. Which likely puts more acreage under a corporate plow.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Free Vulcan

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,798
  • Gender: Male
  • Ah, the air is so much fresher here...
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2018, 09:14:42 pm »
Most farms here in Iowa are incorporated, but family owned and not by one of the ABC's (Archer-Daniels Midland, Bunge, Cargill). Farm subsidies are price floor triggered these days, and to my knowledge not a certainty year-to-year.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,878
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Trump: Farmers will understand if they get hurt in China trade spat
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2018, 10:31:07 pm »
Most farms here in Iowa are incorporated, but family owned and not by one of the ABC's (Archer-Daniels Midland, Bunge, Cargill). Farm subsidies are price floor triggered these days, and to my knowledge not a certainty year-to-year.
If you are farming large acreage, and in the right corridors, not having crop insurance is almost foolish. The investment is huge, and often borrowed money for the newer farmers. If the Feds can insure beachfront property in high flood/hurricane areas, they can insure crops in areas that get devastating hail.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis